India Border Watch: Security and Operations

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jan 2018 02:00

This is awesome opportunity to figure out effectiveness of mortar rounds.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 23 Jan 2018 02:37

anupmisra wrote:Interesting to note that these are Punjabis firing at each other on both sides, cursing the same curses.

Hi Anup

Great observation yes Punjabis on both sides and ethinically both of Indian race (if we trace it right back).
Just to further it more.
Pakistani are not all Punjabis. Though they are the majority of Pakistan.
Pakistan rounded up consists of
Ethnic Punjabis (Punjab)
Ethnic Pathans (MWFP)
Ethnic Balochis (Balochistan)
Ethnic Sindhis (Sindh)
Ethnic Kashmiris (Occupied Kashmir).

But as Karan and other state, Pakistanis tend to let the religion dominate their identity instead of nation or even statehood.
Hence the jibe at wanna be mughals. You see they have great difficulty explaining their historical roots before 1947 and to overcome that they very quickly become Mughals who rode in from the West and took over the vast Indian empire bringing civilisation to us.

Little realising that ethnically speaking they are as Indians as India is.

Just remember one thing Pakistan's stupidity is to use religion to dictate and define everything they do in their
day
month
year
life.

So they have stopped becoming Punjabi, Pathani , Balochi or a Sindhi and have become true Muslim hardliners who have a point to prove that they are the most superior muslims in the world.

Hope this helps my friend.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 23 Jan 2018 03:00

Khalsa wrote:
anupmisra wrote:Interesting to note that these are Punjabis firing at each other on both sides, cursing the same curses.
Hi Anup

Great observation yes Punjabis on both sides and ethinically both of Indian race (if we trace it right back).
Just to further it more.
Pakistani are not all Punjabis. Though they are the majority of Pakistan.
Pakistan rounded up consists of
Ethnic Punjabis (Punjab)
Ethnic Pathans (MWFP)
Ethnic Balochis (Balochistan)
Ethnic Sindhis (Sindh)
Ethnic Kashmiris (Occupied Kashmir).

But as Karan and other state, Pakistanis tend to let the religion dominate their identity instead of nation or even statehood.
Hence the jibe at wanna be mughals. You see they have great difficulty explaining their historical roots before 1947 and to overcome that they very quickly become Mughals who rode in from the West and took over the vast Indian empire bringing civilisation to us.

Little realising that ethnically speaking they are as Indians as India is.

Just remember one thing Pakistan's stupidity is to use religion to dictate and define everything they do in their
day
month
year
life.

So they have stopped becoming Punjabi, Pathani , Balochi or a Sindhi and have become true Muslim hardliners who have a point to prove that they are the most superior muslims in the world.

Hope this helps my friend.

It does, my friend, it does.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 23 Jan 2018 03:09

So they have stopped becoming Punjabi, Pathani , Balochi or a Sindhi and have become true Muslim hardliners who have a point to prove that they are the most superior muslims in the world.

Hope this helps my friend.

The major difference between Indian Punjabis and Pakistani claimed punjabis is that when Indian Punjabi says BC, it is Truth (Satya) as they Pakistani punjabis marry their own cousins from both(mom and dad) sides.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 23 Jan 2018 03:25

Imo BakistanI are doing Chinese bidding. China is using bakistan . Plan is Bakistan engage India . It will have negative effect on Asian countries as their heads of state are attending Republic Day celebrations. Simple calculation; if India can not take care of basket case like Bakistan, how it is going to save them from China?

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 23 Jan 2018 07:48

SBajwa wrote:
So they have stopped becoming Punjabi, Pathani , Balochi or a Sindhi and have become true Muslim hardliners who have a point to prove that they are the most superior muslims in the world.

Hope this helps my friend.
The major difference between Indian Punjabis and Pakistani claimed punjabis is that when Indian Punjabi says BC, it is Truth (Satya) as they Pakistani punjabis marry their own cousins from both(mom and dad) sides.

Good One !!
+1

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 23 Jan 2018 10:56

Rajeev wrote: Watch Indian army's heavy firing near LoC.

https://www.facebook.com/KashmirGazette ... 968964192/

That looks like a training exercise in the summer. Near the LoC in winter shouldn't look like that.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 23 Jan 2018 11:36

Manish_P wrote:Things are certainly hotting up. Hope the OFBs will step up their act, especially on the mortar shells

and

Sources said over 9,000 mortar shells have been fired across the border in last four days.

Well done, lads. Give them hell.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 23 Jan 2018 15:07

I haven’t been following this. Have they killed 12 civilians and 5 security forces personnel ? That’s a pretty serious offensive. We need to study this. Clearly BSF assault is not enough. We need to reinforce this across the LC and IB. If the 5:1 casualty figure is to be respected atleast another 80 need to die.

Rsingh good point.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 23 Jan 2018 15:20

Obviously our messaging is not working. We have had several of these rounds lately. I think we need to escalate a few notches. Arty has to be brought in. No choice.

What about hepter air operations and drones.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jan 2018 21:05

I keep saying they need to implement my patented "Peace Park" initiative around the LoC. hope someone's listening.

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Jan 2018 21:58

In one of the reports, the BSF officer mentions Pakis have reinforced bunkers across IB and our mortars have no effect on them.
So we were just wasting ammo.

This has been one my pet peeves. If we don't want to use 155mm, need to find a way to knock out these bunkers.

We have been fighting this LoC/ IB mortar war for decades, however never invested in weapons which would give us advantage.

We should invested in DEW to knock off incoming mortars. Constant UAV monitoring+ WLR to pinpoint mortar launch locations.
May be specialized rocket powered mortars (similar in concept of runway diggers) & cheap ATGM to let us penetrate these bunkers.

We receive more mortar rounds than Israel does, yet it has set up Iron dome!

Unfortunately I don't see major work by DRDO in this area.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jan 2018 22:22

nam reinforced bunkers need direct hit from large shells.

As I had pointed out in the artillery thread a smooth bore 120mm mortar round(explosive charge 4kg) CEP is about 136m. With precision location and ballistic computer to set the charge and firing angle the CEP is 76 m that is about half. Rifled barrel halves these numbers.

Now to get a direct hit on a bunker the mortar is not the weapon of choice. It needs guidance kit.

But they can get mortar pits as blast radius is 75 m. just about there.

The tactics unit in Army needs to get its act together and figure what they want to do.

ARDE is working on a PGK type fuze.

I think a parallel project should be to develop a mortar kit.
The catch is they need to spin the projectile in order to guide it.

So if ARDE can come up with a new tail that induce roll or spin it would improve accuracy by half and also make the projectile ready for the fuze when it shows up.

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Jan 2018 22:45

ramana wrote:
The tactics unit in Army needs to get its act together and figure what they want to do.

I hope so. Till then this is becoming a random waste of ammo. We have one of the largest Defense research organization in the world and have been so poor in developing tactical attrition warfare weapons.

We seems to be preparing for a type of war, which we may never fight, against the type of war we are constantly fighting!

For all we know a RPG29 type of weapon may be very useful in bunker busting roll. We should have created one long back.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 23 Jan 2018 23:08

Re Pak hardened defences, this is exactly the point I have made many times :

a- their defences are hardened so our shelling is not very effective. Note - with simple trenches with overhead protection casulaties can be reudced to as low as 10%. With properly hardened defences they are much lower

b- our defences on the LC are not hardened. Gen Hasnain has written about this and expressed concern.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jan 2018 23:59

All this shows the need for bunker defeat ammo.
No wonder those ATGMs were being used.
You cant defeat a bunker no matter what with the 120mm mortar as it doesn't have enough explosive power.
You need direct hit with a 155mm shell.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 24 Jan 2018 00:09

And the LoC & IB will only get worse.

1) The Chinese are helping Pakis reinforce bunkers
2) Its a low cost way for China to keep India tied down

I wouldn't be surprised if UAVs, ATGMs, thermal imagers and other infantry weapons to help ambush, infiltrate & send terrorists are made available to Pakistan from the Chinese MIC complex.

As I said earlier, India is already fighting a 2 front war - but its a sub-conventional 2 front war. China will make it more expensive for us to fight this war.

So, sooner or later, we have to seriously up the game:

1) Bring the big guns, LCH etc to bear
2) Kill Pakis deep inside. Include airstrikes to kill 1000 in one night flat Nuclear bluff cannot be made if the Op is completed before anyone has had their morning coffee
3) Take out HVTs like Suar, Lakhvi, Azhar
4) Kill Pindi generals
5) Activate pizza slicing of Pakistan
6) Make some Chinese engineers disappear without trace
7) Randomly, create some heat in LAC

India will need to become proactive on both fronts, if we don't want to bleed all over again. We need a surgical strike against Pakis & Chinese every month, if we want to have any chance of winning this war.

I wouldn't even be surprised if ISI & the Chinese are encouraged by the Congress to cause a major incident to embarrass Modi before the 2019 election

nam · Post by **nam** » 24 Jan 2018 00:23

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Re Pak hardened defences, this is exactly the point I have made many times :

a- their defences are hardened so our shelling is not very effective. Note - with simple trenches with overhead protection casulaties can be reudced to as low as 10%. With properly hardened defences they are much lower

b- our defences on the LC are not hardened. Gen Hasnain has written about this and expressed concern.

Saw in one of the videos, Pak forces were firing their mortars from trenches.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Jan 2018 00:48

GIF of Pak Rangers' POL dump blown up by BSF. Note rounds impacting on the bottom left corner

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Jan 2018 01:24

ramana wrote:All this shows the need for bunker defeat ammo.
No wonder those ATGMs were being used.
You cant defeat a bunker no matter what with the 120mm mortar as it doesn't have enough explosive power.
You need direct hit with a 155mm shell.

Gen Hooda was on TV and he mentioned that we know the kind and quality of Paki bunkers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2018 01:41

Does anyone have details of those Pak bunkers?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2018 23:17

I think we need to pay more attention to the BSF operations at IB in Kashmir.
BSF has launched Operation Bhim.

Don't know details and would appreciate people collect news reports there.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Jan 2018 00:17

Paki whine .

arun · Post by **arun** » 25 Jan 2018 09:57

X Posted from the Terroristan thread.

Two days in a row, journalists from the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan, no doubt acting under the instructions of the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi Military dominated Deep State who are at the receiving end of India’s pasting, bring up the matter of UN intervention in bilateral matters between India and the Islamic Republic and get the brush off from Stéphane Dujarric, Spokesperson for the UN Secretary-General:

On January 22 (Clicky):

22 JANUARY 2018
Daily Press Briefing by the Office of the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General

The following is a near-verbatim transcript of today’s noon briefing by Stéphane Dujarric, Spokesman for the Secretary-General. ……………………….

Question: I know… Stéphane, thank you. I know you're a little reluctant to answer these questions. The situation in occupied Kashmir is getting bad to worse, and India and Pakistan are exchanging fires across the border. Do you have any… I mean, have anything from the Secretary‑General on this? Is the Secretary‑General concerned about the situation…?

Spokesman: We're obviously aware. We're following this… what's been going on, really for the last 10 days, and I think our… again, the Secretary‑General would encourage both sides to address any outstanding issues through dialogue.

Question: I mean, on the my… my… my… I just wanted to… as to what is the reason… this is one of the most… the crisis simmering for a very long time, and the border exchanges and people are being killed. But, why isn't the Secretary‑General so keen to involve himself in this crisis?

Spokesman: As a matter of principle, all right, I'm not talking specifically about this issue, but about any issue where there is conflict between parties, the Secretary‑General's good offices are always available. And, as in any issue, both parties or more than… you know, if there are multiple parties, everyone needs to agree on involving the United Nations. That is true of any mediation effort. Yes, sir?

On January 23 (Clicky):

23 JANUARY 2018

Daily Press Briefing by the Office of the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General

The following is a near-verbatim transcript of today’s noon briefing by Stéphane Dujarric, Spokesman for the Secretary-General. ……………………….

Question: Thank you, Stéphane. Two questions. Stéphane, this… about Afghanistan where yesterday the bomb… whatever, bombing happened where almost 25 or 20… 30 people died, has the United Nations been able to determine as to which party was responsible? Because Pakistan…

Spokesman: We do not have the investigative capacity nor mandate.

Question: Oh, I see. Now, on the Secretary‑General's interview that was published, I think, this morning in which he said, I asked Pakistan and India to resolve their disputes bilaterally and that he expressed no inclination to get himself involved because… why? Is it because Pakistan… India is not willing to accept his good offices?

Spokesman: I don't know of any interview that he gave. You may be quoting me back to me. It's what I… there was… I had an exchange with your colleague, I think, yesterday on this very issue, and I really have nothing more to say than what is in the transcript from yesterday.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Jan 2018 08:58

We must somehow target Paki Army Barracks or Trucks on the move, Hitting the jackpot by getting a couple of Hino trucks fully loaded with Uniformed Jihadis will be nice. But be probably need some intelligence, stealthy UAV flying in at the right time and giving the target info.etc.

But hope we keep working on hitting the Paki Army and Rangers hard, irrespective of what they do we should get some good results, we need to focus on thier war fighting ability.

Vivek Kumar · Post by **Vivek Kumar** » 26 Jan 2018 10:32

Good Morning porkistan!!!

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 26 Jan 2018 19:53

After 9,000 rounds of BSF shelling, Pak Rangers seek peace meeting.

The Border Security Force's strong retaliatory action in response to 'unprovoked firing' from across the border bore results on Thursday with the Pakistan Rangers seeking a meeting to resolve the issue.

The BSF officers strongly objected to Pakistan targeting sniper assaults at its jawans and unprovoked firing and shelling directed at a number of Indian villages, innocent civilians and their properties.

Pakistani officers reportedly didn't have anything to say when charged by India with attempting to disturb peace at the border but suggested that lines of "communication" should be kept open in such scenarios.

So Porkistani army does not commit on not launching dastardly and sly sniping attacks on our soldiers but wants to keep downhill skiing opten open when India effectively retaliates and kills a few of the scums.

The BSF said in a statement that the meeting took place "on the request" of the Pakistani side. A similar request by the Indian side was "not responded to" by the Rangers a few days back, official sources said.

Why should BSF (and India) be the perennially good guys? Next time Rangers want to do down hill skiing by requesting talks, India should refuse and agree to talks only after the pakistanis agree to formally raising the white flag and after the BSF/Army has videographed the flag being raised by them.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Jan 2018 20:04

Over 800 pakistanis killed in first half of 2017, as per the media panel. Gen. Rawat is sure turning out to be a bogeyman for Pakistanis.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Jan 2018 11:20

Yes, we must do the unprovoked firing at the time of our choosing rather than wait for Pakis who will definitely violate the ceasefire agreement again. Nothing but a steady stream of body bags will deter Pakis while we build our capabilities.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Jan 2018 21:04

Indiatimes - Frontlines | 5,500 km long road trip to meet the soldiers posted at the border

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 30 Jan 2018 22:05

Interesting hardware. What is the gun he's holding at 16:00?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 30 Jan 2018 23:49

^^ It is a Beretta MX4 Storm Carbine. I remember reading a report about the BSF having problems with these a few years back.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Feb 2018 05:07

Looks like Pakis used an ATGM against a FRP hut in Rajouri, Jammu and killed 3 soldiers and wounded others.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Feb 2018 09:52

Thats why we need somethign in Huge numbers for Bunker busting role, targeting roads tracks, artillery. The Pakis know that as long as we dont induct ATGM, 155mm, rocket artillery, Weapon locatign radars, UAV's , it is difficult for us to go up the escalation ladder easily. We need consistent 8-10 year production to constantly outgun them 10:1, it should like US Vs Taliban.

They whole country is nothing but a Jihad factory and was never an economic entity, every penny will be used only to fight us.

For the short term we need to inflict some casualties somehow, a Hino truck with soldiers, officers Jeeps, Artillery depot. We need fpr them to have heavy casualties in the short term to buy peace while we rearm.

Worst, is politicans in this country taunting us that our soldiers have died rather than feeling the pain.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 06 Feb 2018 15:54

I have been saying for a while....our defences need to be hardened.

Read this https://swarajyamag.com/defence/my-hq-w ... -live-with

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Feb 2018 16:52

There were reports in 2005-06 of BSF stating Pakis were hardening Bunkers during the ceasefire. Wonder why we did not do the same and plan for this at that time?

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 06 Feb 2018 17:11

Aditya_V wrote:There were reports in 2005-06 of BSF stating Pakis were hardening Bunkers during the ceasefire. Wonder why we did not do the same and plan for this at that time?

Have you read the article I attached ? It answers your question. We did not and do not have the necessary operational budget. LC conditions are terrible - defences, cooking areas, toilets etc. See how Gen Hasnain recounts how as a Brigadier commanding Uri Bde he initiated case for a wall at URI garrison, some years later when he returned as Div Commander the wall had still not come up and he initiated again, and some years later as Corps Commander he initiated again.

The article is a must read for everyone on BRF. Read it, reflect on it and read it again. It will answer many questions.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Feb 2018 17:41

Sure am reading it.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 06 Feb 2018 23:52

From India TV News: ‘15 Pakistani soldiers killed in massive retaliation by Indian Army’

15 Pakistani soldiers were killed in retaliatory firing by Indian forces along LoC in last two days, according to a senior Army official.
According to reports, Pakistan has been taken aback by the massive retaliation from the Indian side.

Action will speak for itself, says Army on retaliation to 4 soldiers' death in Pak shelling “Indian forces are giving befitting reply to firing from the Pakistani side. 15 Pakistani soldiers have been killed in last two days. It has been accepted by Pakistan. India will continue to give befitting response to Pakistani firing,” Brigadier J S Badhwar of JK Light Infantry said.

Earlier in the day, Vice Chief of Indian Army Sarath Chand had asserted that Pakistan will definitely get befitting response that will be visible to all.
On Sunday, Captain Kapil Kundu and three other jawans of Indian Army were killed in heavy Pakistani shelling along the LoC in Poonch and Rajouri districts of Jammu and Kashmir.

Pakistani forces opened unprovoked heavy firing and shelling along the LoC in Bhimbher Gali sector and it was a massive ceasefire violation as the Pak Army used mortars as well as anti-tank guided missiles.
Normally, such missiles are not used in ceasefire violations along LoC. However, Pakistan crossed all the limits on Sunday and deliberately targeted civilians as well.

Hope this not old news

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Feb 2018 00:16

ramana wrote:Does anyone have details of those Pak bunkers?

The hans have got into the building of paki bunkers, both in cashmere and the gujarat borders.

This is because of improved and more robust construction methods, which in turn afforded greater safety to the pakis.