China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Jan 2018 08:48

Absolutely right. GOIs need to stop treating defense MIC as a tool to generate election funds.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2018 04:13

chola wrote:
The MiG-21 was a first rate frontline fighter when we first got it.

Rubbish. The IAF wanted the Lightning or F4 Phantom II unavailable and unaffordable. Krishnamenon did a deal wIth the Soviets. It was an underarmed shortlegged fighter that landed at an insane speed of 350 kmph and the pilot could not see the runway. Please stick to Chinese stuff on this thread and don't cook up stuff about the IAF.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2018 04:23

chola wrote:
Oh come on. The chinis are just launched their 30th Type 054A and their 40th Type 056 corvette. Nobody has enough money for “everything” but they have a lot of money for a lot of hardware without doubt.

Really? So if they had some more money to throw they would get a working engine then? They boast more about their engines via their media echo chambers than spend the money that creates great engines.

Maybe they should try fitting one of their wildly successful corvette engines on their J 10s no? They are making so many. They would then have humongous numbers of corvettes and working engines what what?

chola · Post by **chola** » 25 Jan 2018 07:57

^^^ Oh right, Shiv. We have nothing to worry about now because the carriers, the 13K-ton cruisers, those 30 frigates and 40 corvettes must me figments of our imagination since they didn’t have money to fix a Russian engine.

Being an ostrich is a blissful way of life I guess.

chola · Post by **chola** » 25 Jan 2018 08:05

shiv wrote:
chola wrote:
The MiG-21 was a first rate frontline fighter when we first got it.
Rubbish. The IAF wanted the Lightning or F4 Phantom II unavailable and unaffordable. Krishnamenon did a deal wIth the Soviets. It was an underarmed shortlegged fighter that landed at an insane speed of 350 kmph and the pilot could not see the runway. Please stick to Chinese stuff on this thread and don't cook up stuff about the IAF.

Yes, and it killed 170 Indians too. I hate it. But it was a first rate frontline fighter in 1964 when inducted. Top Gun was set up by the US Navy five years LATER in 1969 in part to train against the MiG-21 arriving in Vietnam. The MiG-21 is a shitty plane today but it was cutting edge in 1964.

THIS IS A PRELIMINARY WARNING. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS PLEASE.PLEASE MAINTAIN CORDIALITY

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 25 Jan 2018 08:15

https://www.thecipherbrief.com/beijing- ... s-frontier

At the very least we should invest in co-orbital kinetic impact weapons.
Else we won’t know what hit us. Especially since all our satellites are launched with such fanfare including dual use military ones & Chinese would have a strategy to deal with them

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2018 08:54

chola wrote: Being an ostrich is a blissful way of life I guess.

I'll take your word for it. I cannot dispute the weight of your intuitive insight into bird brainpower.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jan 2018 12:04

In the Vietnam War the MIG-21 was a rude shock to the US downing many US aircraft types.However it was designed as an Interceptor , upgrades gave it GA capbilities morphing into its final avatar the Bison.China too built massive amts of MIGs, mainly 19s.It is the Chinese numbers of current fighters which makes the problem more acute.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jan 2018 12:27

chola wrote:^^^ Oh right, Shiv. We have nothing to worry about now because the carriers, the 13K-ton cruisers, those 30 frigates and 40 corvettes must me figments of our imagination since they didn’t have money to fix a Russian engine.

Being an ostrich is a blissful way of life I guess.

china has deeply invested in ukraine - both zorya the prime mover in marine gas turbines, but also progress who makes aero engines, and antonov. antonov has a history of decades of successful a.c designs including titans like An124. the father son duo were both hands on geniuses and it was said the father could walk down a runway and predict by gut-feel how long a takeoff run a prototype ac would take.

they have purchased the AN70, which with the stolen C17 data would have given some good leg up to the Y20 design years ago when in infancy...its not a easy thing to create such a ac even if the all the materials and designs are readily available, and make it fly to IOC , let alone clean sheet designs.

all the billions of $$ invested and the human resources built up doing various projects (some successful, some unsuccessful) are paying off handsomely for China now just as it did for UK, germany, france and USA.

not many care to look that many massa projects fail and of those that work, only some are funded to FOC, but the human resources and design data is built up.

we must scale up and do more, even if we fail...thats the best lesson we must learn from China.

prophetic words, please think over the deeper implications carefully...from Enders Game....many of these scifi and war movies are deeply philosophical at the core....like "a thin red line"

"I am your enemy, the first one you've ever had who was smarter than you. There is no teacher but the enemy. No one but the enemy will tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you how to destroy and conquer. Only the enemy shows you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you where he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you. I am your enemy from now on. From now I am your teacher."
Ch. 14: Ender's Teacher

"Remember, boy. From now on the enemy is more clever than you. From now on the enemy is stronger than you. From now on you are always about to lose."
The old man's face grew serious again. "You will be about to lose, Ender, but you will win. You will learn to defeat the enemy. He will teach you how."
Ch. 14: Ender's Teacher

“In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it’s impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them.... I destroy them.”
― Orson Scott Card, Ender's Game

chola · Post by **chola** » 25 Jan 2018 16:14

^^^ Yes, the chinis are invested everywhere. In Africa, South America, Eastern Europe. The Middle East. Antarctica. They are heavily into Artic affairs because of possible trade routes opening up because of global warming (!!!)

And I am glad. Because they are there then we will be soon as well.

I am grateful we have the chinis as rivals. Were the Himalayas any higher or Tibet more forbidding then we would have only Pakistan and that shithole would have kept us tied to their level.

We had no issues with goras on top. Without Cheen’s rise starting in the 1990s, we were perfectly content under the Nehru clan to stay poor and unambitious. Content with the Hindu rate of growth. The PRC’s rise got us out of our slumber and got us out of the South Asian straight jacket.

Not only us but Japan and the rest of Asia as well. They too were content in the hierarchy imposed by the goras until Cheen began their challenge.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/japan-c ... n-balkans/

It is this Chinese attention to the western Balkans that was the main motive for the Japanese prime minister’s recent visit to Serbia. Tokyo is desperate to counter growing Chinese soft power by opening its own purse and extending its political clout to a small Balkan country.

All these years when Japan was the number two economy in the world, they never bothered with the Balkans. But because the chinis are there, they are now there.

And we will be there soon as well.

Say what you will about the chinks, they have vision and moxie. They will do whatever they can — cheat, lie or steal — to break the status quo dominated by white nations and white skin. They were and are a revisionist power while we accepted the status quo. But now that the PRC has crashed the goras’ party, we have changed.

And I am glad.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 26 Jan 2018 14:55

Take a look at the Wing Loong family members, from left to right:
WL Ⅰ,
WL Ⅰ-D all-composite airframe, will debut in later this year & enter the market,
WL Ⅱ in serial production with orders over 100,
WL Ⅱ-G(modification) still in the pipeline,
WL X
WL Ⅲ debut in 3ys.
https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/9 ... 3199191041

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Jan 2018 16:29

Our huge mistake is not to imagine that we are a captive market of 1.4B people and see that the fundamental needs of this .market are met y local agri, industry, and services putting Indian made goods and services first and firangis last! If that was national policy, then there would be no $60B trade deficit with China.With demon and GST, I and the collapse of MSMEs it is the firang and Chin MNCs and exporters who are laughing all the way to the bank.

Concentrating upon their interests first and max. homebuilt milware , by stealing tech wherevef possible, China has leapt over much legacy mil tech to produce cutting edge milware at reasonable cost today and eqpt. that is being mass produced to overwhelm enemies like India through sheer weight of greater numbers.We neither mass produce Desi milwar e or buy firangware in large numbers barring a few items of eqpt. like MKIs, T-series MBT and now BMos missiles.That last item is perhaps our most potent and deadly conventional weapon that our enemies are wary of being employed now by all 3 services.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 26 Jan 2018 16:51

In the 1950s we cut out imports and that helped change Dubai from a fishing port to a smuggling / trading giant. Then we focussed on heavy industry letting ASEAN countries become giants of light manufacturing industry.

Then we neglected our history and culture and small countries became tourist havens.

Whilst we were looking inward, internal emergency, Bindranwale, north east terror, labor strikes, China became capitalist and the World's factory.

Luckily nobody had heard of software.

Luckily we were forced to open up by IMF.

Now luckily we have NAMO so let's make the most of this opportunity.

Our greatest opportunity is agriculture .

chola · Post by **chola** » 26 Jan 2018 17:11

Prasad wrote:
Take a look at the Wing Loong family members, from left to right:
WL Ⅰ,
WL Ⅰ-D all-composite airframe, will debut in later this year & enter the market,
WL Ⅱ in serial production with orders over 100,
WL Ⅱ-G(modification) still in the pipeline,
WL X
WL Ⅲ debut in 3ys.
https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/9 ... 3199191041

The more I look at their AC business, the more American it seems. Drones are a prime example. American not just in the rip-off of the US Predator/Reaper design. But more importantly, their ecosystem of competing companies and products.

So CAIG makes the Wing Loong which is the PLA supported UAV series.

But it is not the only one selling armed UAVs.

CASC’s Cai Hong or “Rainbow” series actually have deeper penetration into the Middle Eastern market than the Wing Loong. Most of the known videos of chinese drone kills in Iraq and other places are of the CH-4. Their CH-5 have better specs than the Wing Loong 2. Yet, CASC has not sold any to the PLA.

So even in Reaper ripoffs, they have a competive structure. CAIG wins the PLA contract so CASC needs to find export markets. CAIG now enters the export market as well so CASC needs better specs in their latest of the Rainbow series, CH-5. Competition for contracts and markets forces constant upgrades and improvements.

CAIG Wing Loong 2:

CASC CH-5:

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jan 2018 17:52

Anyone with any insight into this? The dame pronounces Cheeni names better than me.
http://www.wionews.com/videos/wion-grav ... china-7969

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jan 2018 18:43

Meantime the redoubtable rustom2 is in never ending and unknown flight tests.
There is no word on its test flights unlke saras or tejas

chola · Post by **chola** » 26 Jan 2018 19:54

Singha wrote:Meantime the redoubtable rustom2 is in never ending and unknown flight tests.
There is no word on its test flights unlke saras or tejas

We need to set up competitive pressure somehow. Without it, things can become just lab experiments.

Two or competing groups will force both to look for the correct balance of quality, pricing and time to market as competitive advantage:

1) quality — most obvious advantage, better products get you more sales unless pricing is too relative to advantage,

2) pricing — a “good enough” product at a lower price point can win you customers even against superior quality and quantity is a quality of its own

3) time to market — quality and pricing won’t matter much if you are late to market while your competitor is winning contracts and resources for the next round.

Obviously, the best way to get competitive pressure is to bring in the private sector. But if they are not forthcoming from there (because of people, incentives or risk-reward balance) then we should at least create competition within our PSUs.

Even if DRDO had to create two separate UAV teams it would be worth it in the long run. The hope is two teams competing with each other might give us products within a fraction of the time a single team with no competition might dilly dally through. And competing teams would give us choices through different solutions. And now we have the side benefit of two experienced teams for the future.

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Jan 2018 22:10

Paper dragon

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20180115_21/

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 29 Jan 2018 05:51

Looks like the PRC Shang-class nuclear attack submarines aren't very quiet
http://m.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy- ... ssion=true

The PLA Navy’s 110-metre Shang-class submarine surfaced in international waters with a Chinese flag on its mast on January 12 after it was followed by the Japan Maritime Self-Defence Force for two days.

chola · Post by **chola** » 29 Jan 2018 08:12

lol. Probably not very professionally crewed either. But the Japanese do have first rate equipment and training.

Showing its flag around contested islands is a gray zone tactic. It is meant to confuse the state of sovereignty in the area even if the sub they are using is shitty.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jan 2018 08:36

yes I guess the Shang crew just needed a work assignment and were given this. a surface unit would have done just the same.

the next class of cheen SSN will be competitive for sure, right now Shang may not be top notch , but one can sure they have put best minds and $$ on it in 3 shifts as this is one of the areas where USN holds a big lead both in numbers and quality.

chola · Post by **chola** » 29 Jan 2018 08:56

^^^ This article said they actually did send in a surface combatant as well, Singha ji.

Yup, SCS tactics. They sent in a frigate and then surfaced a nook sub with raised flag in a contested waters. Pretty aggressive and blatant. Not very professional. Russian subs even when located and pinged don’t surface to confirm their nationality.

This is a typical chini gray zone tactic to push more and more vessels into the area to compromise local sovereignty. Having a loud sub and poor crew actually doesn’t hurt when you are deliberately showing the flag in contested regions.

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-c ... ner-2018-1

China's military is turning its aggressive South China Sea tactics on Japan

A Chinese Peoples Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) Type 054 frigate and a Shang-class nuclear-powered attack submarine were used in the operation, distinguishing the incident from prior incursions in two ways.

The frigate was an official PLAN vessel instead of a more commonly used Coast Guard ship. Additionally, China had never sent a submarine into the contested waters before.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jan 2018 12:41

A submarine surfacing in hostile waters and allowing itself to be photographed is an embarrassing defeat and no amount of rationalization claiming "Oh we wanted to be seen" can reverse the fact that the sub was caught pants down.

Inside the sub they must have known they were being tailed. That would be a great training opportunity to go silent. Active pinging of a silent sub by a hostile tailing ship can be used to target and sink that ship. Instead of playing the sub stealth game, the Cheenis ended up playing "Aiyis-payis" and showing themselves and then faking it with a lame excyoose. Bah.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Jan 2018 14:35

IMO the Japanese should get purpose built ramming ships to "gently nudge" the PLAN ships away when ever they have the urge to flag wave in the "disputed territory". There are only two ways to deal with bullies, out bully them or bend over.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 29 Jan 2018 14:53

shiv wrote:A submarine surfacing in hostile waters and allowing itself to be photographed is an embarrassing defeat

+108

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Jan 2018 15:23

abhik wrote:IMO the Japanese should get purpose built ramming ships to "gently nudge" the PLAN ships away when ever they have the urge to flag wave in the "disputed territory". There are only two ways to deal with bullies, out bully them or bend over.

I suppose some coast guard cutter can "shove" it away instead of a million dollar navy ship.. Oh the shame

.. a billion dollar nuke pushed away by a puny cutter

chola · Post by **chola** » 29 Jan 2018 17:22

The pushing game will need to be implemented in earnest. As more and more chini ships go into the region, the Japanese have to match unless they accept losing control of the seas in the area. Ship per ship, aircraft per aircraft.

The chini coast guard is a huge force as well with cutters the size of frigates and destroyers. The US might begin sailing their ships in the area. In the end it will come down to numbers just like the SCS.

You can’t attrite numbers unless you go to war. This will be played out in all disputed areas and in the global commons. Unless and until there is war, this is a contest between MICs in pumping out ships, aircraft and fake islands.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/water-wars- ... deployment

The appearance of the Chinese frigate and submarine follows the incursion of four Chinese Coast Guard vessels into the waters surrounding the islands. Since Japan chose to nationalize the islands in 2012, China has increased “routine” patrols of maritime law enforcement ships, as well as scrambling military flights to the surrounding seas. It was not until June 2016, however, that China first deployed a naval vessel to the Senkauku Island’s contiguous zone, in that case a Jiankai-I class frigate. A deployment of a fleet of fishing and coastguard vessels to the region followed soon after. The deployment of a Chinese submarine represents a further escalation from these previous patrols. China’s decision to send a submarine to the area around the islands could therefore represent the same kind of “salami slicing” it has been using in the South China Sea to assert its authority, gradually ramping up its level of interference without taking any steps so far beyond precedent that they would force a response.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Jan 2018 23:20

https://t.co/Ue2OdusntA
Is China’s nuclear attack submarine too easy to detect?

After a Chinese nuclear attack submarine was discovered by the Japanese navy while submerged near disputed islands in the East China Sea, military experts say it could be too easy to detect. Some military experts believe the vessel was forced to surface, but others say there is not enough information to back up that theory.What is known is that the submarine entered the contiguous zone less than 24 nautical miles from the contested Diaoyu Islands, which are known as the Senkakus in Japan. It was the first time a Chinese navy submarine had come so close to the islands, leading to speculation that it was an apparent move by China to demonstrate its sovereignty claim.But the early and long exposure of its underwater trajectory, according to military experts, suggests the vessel is not as quiet as it should be. Japan’s defence ministry said anti-submarine ships and planes had been tracking the Chinese submarine since January 10.China’s nuclear attack submarine has been in service since 2006, carrying out missions in the Indian Ocean and Western Pacific. Two of the submarines, type 093, were built in the 2000s, and at least two more – the upgraded type 093A – were commissioned in 2016, according to a report to the US Congress in 2017.Japan did not say whether the submarine spotted near its waters was one of the earlier vessels or the upgrade, but experts say it was the newer type. That submarine is believed to have a vertical launch system for anti-ship YJ-18 cruise missiles, and was expected to be on par with the United States’ Los Angeles-class submarines – or at least much quieter than its notoriously noisy predecessor, the type 091 Han-class.“This is such a shame for the navy,” said a Beijing-based military source, who requested anonymity, adding that the vessel was detected because it was “too noisy”.The incident has also shown the strong anti-submarine capabilities of Japan, which has the technological backing of the US military, according to military commentator Zhou Chenming in Beijing.
“It’s not so bad that they’ve been exposed, it could push the Chinese to work harder on making the submarines quieter,” Zhou said. “As a strong military power China should be confident enough not to cover up its weaknesses and failures.”Chinese nuclear attack submarine that raised flag in international waters may have been testing Japan’s patrol capabilitiesIt is also unusual that a nuclear submarine – which could stay underwater for months – surfaced in front of another navy, given that they usually strive to stay unseen and undetected.“Once a submarine has been exposed and its unique acoustics have been recorded, it puts them at a great disadvantage,” said Li Jie, a researcher at the Naval Military Studies Research Institute in Beijing.In 2004, a type 091 Han-class nuclear submarine was detected as it trespassed in Japanese territorial waters near the recent incident. But it remained submerged until it returned to Chinese waters, despite being chased by Japanese ships and planes dropping sonobuoys, which pick up underwater sounds and transmit them.Macau-based military expert Antony Wong Dong believed the nuclear attack submarine was forced to surface, and said it was “dumb” of the Chinese navy to allow its features to be seen and photographed.

kit · Post by **kit** » 30 Jan 2018 00:30

The "sub surface " wars are definitely going to get more interesting considering much of south china sea os "sea" or shallow ..their submarine upgrades are bound to be broadcasted all the way to India who will be ready to receive them once they enter the littoral IOC .. a joint surveillance system with the Japs and maybe the koreans is not a bad idea at all

..the hans will run for the polar caps to hide their nuke boomers ..hmmm ( is that why they are so interested in "opening" up the polar sea routes ? )

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 30 Jan 2018 01:09

abhik wrote:IMO the Japanese should get purpose built ramming ships to "gently nudge" the PLAN ships away when ever they have the urge to flag wave in the "disputed territory". There are only two ways to deal with bullies, out bully them or bend over.

Why go that way. There is no law that says you cannot mine your own waters. Mine them and then issue an advisory. Leave the Chinese to sail then, at their own risk.

chola · Post by **chola** » 30 Jan 2018 01:18

Chini plane crash. Swept wings, at least two nacelles. It might be one of their new Y-20s!

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy- ... g-exercise

Supposedly from video of this thing on fire before the final swan dive.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Jan 2018 04:54

nah, its reported to be a Signals Intelligence airplane, likely to be Y-8G, like the one shown below

This afternoon the China Air Force reported that one of her aircraft had crashed while training in Guizhou Province. Based on the wreckage that shows a tail with 513 as last three it is believed that the aircraft involved is ELINT Y-8G 30513. Confirmation on the type is needed!

chola · Post by **chola** » 30 Jan 2018 06:03

^^^ High value loss then. Probably a valuable crew too if this was a known unit and not a new plane.

RIP. Can’t see how they could have bailed.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Jan 2018 06:12

None would have survived that crash. It's well nigh next to impossible to bail out of such jets.

Here's a link showing satellite imagery of air bases near Doklam on both Indian and Chinese side of the border. Significant fighter, heli and UAV assets were placed at Shigatse by the Chinese, in addition to improving the infrastructure there.

link to article

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Jan 2018 07:31

The silhouette looks like a Boeing 737 and that is not a fire. Fake videograb from here:
https://youtu.be/UihP0_LRwi8

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Jan 2018 07:35

http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2018/01 ... ashes.html

A Chinese military plane has crashed during a training flight in Guizhou province in Southwest China.

The aircraft crashed on January 29 afternoon during a training exercise, Chinese PLA Air Force said in a statement.

It is still not clear what type of aircraft was involved in the crashed. But clues from wreckage indicate a PLA Air Force Y-8G SIGINT/ELINT intelligence aircraft was involved. Also the Y-8G fleet of the 20th Special Missions Division is based close to the crash site.

The Chinese manufactured Shaanxi Y-8 is derived from Soviet era Antonov AN-12 transport.

But the aircraft seen flying in the video is not probably the accident aircraft, as it shows an jet engine powered aircraft, either a Boeing 737 or a Airbus A320.

Interestingly PLAAF operates Boeing 737s, which have been modified to serve as airborne command posts.

There are no survivors, as the aircraft has been completely disintegrated following the ground impact and post crash fire.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Jan 2018 11:45

BBC: CIA chief says China 'as big a threat to US' as Russia

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 01 Feb 2018 07:00

Possible railgun being tested aboard an 072 LST.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18 ... ic-railgun

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Feb 2018 17:03

^^^ LOL. That thing looks like a cardboard box with a plastic tube sticking out of it. Real or propaganda?

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Feb 2018 17:05

Philip wrote:In the Vietnam War the MIG-21 was a rude shock to the US downing many US aircraft types.However it was designed as an Interceptor , upgrades gave it GA capbilities morphing into its final avatar the Bison.China too built massive amts of MIGs, mainly 19s.It is the Chinese numbers of current fighters which makes the problem more acute.

Researching this as a matter of interest, Filipov:
The PRC made 4500 J-6 MiG-19 clones and 2400 J-7 MiG-21 clones. Along the way, they made literally tens of thousands of short-lived WP-6/-7/-13 turbojets engines to power them.

We inducted 1200 MiG-21s ourselves and HAL built 657 of them. Still the scale is far less. They built up their industry in the ‘60s when they were isolated and had no choice. We always had our pick of the best on the international market and so we are starting MII in earnest today onlee. What did they say is the mother of invention? Yes, necessity.