Transport Aircraft for IAF

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 22 Dec 2017 05:26

Rakesh wrote:The Rolls Royce of transport aircraft in terms of sheer lift capability. She is a beast!

With last-minute approval, India set to snap up world’s last available C-17 Globemaster
https://theprint.in/2017/12/20/india-se ... obemaster/

Two years after special request made to hold aircraft, defence ministry committee clears signing of contract.

Beast would be An 124.

chola · Post by **chola** » 22 Dec 2017 06:01

Rishi_Tri wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The Rolls Royce of transport aircraft in terms of sheer lift capability. She is a beast!

With last-minute approval, India set to snap up world’s last available C-17 Globemaster
https://theprint.in/2017/12/20/india-se ... obemaster/

Beast would be An 124.

The An-124 would be a beast to operate and fund. The cost to fly the thing makes it impractical 99.9% of the time. And the 0.01 percent of the time you need one, you just rent one.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Dec 2017 17:30

So the white tail will nest in India.We have a great record of buying some systems last! Like Hawk AJTs, etc.The IAF/MOD's garbage van has also been sniffing dumpyards in Malaysia for MIG-29s,France for Jag's,Canada for old Sea Kings and now the search is on in the bazaars of the UKR and former Sov.bloc nations for legacy MI-35s, MI-8s whatever for the Afghans!We might as sell advertise ourselves as rag and bone peddlars!

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 22 Dec 2017 19:06

Very astute observation. Boneyards maketh the Indian Military might. We have CAG to ensure frugality and censure expeditious purchase so the boneyard it is.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 22 Dec 2017 19:36

True. But in some cases we have been pretty quick too (admittedly reactionary, in some cases), in the glorious past. The Tu142, the T90, the Kilo class, the Folland Gnat, the Scorpène..

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 23 Dec 2017 01:29

chola wrote:And the 0.01 percent of the time you need one, you just rent one.

Well captured saar.

chola · Post by **chola** » 23 Dec 2017 09:18

deejay wrote:Very astute observation. Boneyards maketh the Indian Military might. We have CAG to ensure frugality and censure expeditious purchase so the boneyard it is.

I wouldn’t categorize the C-17 as a boneyard pick-up! His the world’s best transport by a wide margin. The number of miles put up by the mere 10 we own proves it. The only reason it is out of production is because the USAF already has over 220.

In the C-17, we actually continue our tradition of flying some of the equipment around.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2017 12:45

dont underestimate the power of DOMESTIC boneyards. that is how the P2 are able to quickly deliver tons of useful medium and low end stuff on short notice to their allies. and that is how, over a few months they can bring new units online for long deployments.

TSP for instance has got a lot of stuff from the boneyard at cheap prices - kills the yindu just the same.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Dec 2017 14:13

Can we try to get 5 used C 17s from USAF to meet our initial 16 air-frames requirement.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Dec 2017 20:15

^^^^ USAF C-17s are used extensively. Need to find airframes that have little use in them.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Dec 2017 20:16

Rakesh wrote:With last-minute approval, India set to snap up world’s last available C-17 Globemaster
https://theprint.in/2017/12/20/india-se ... obemaster/

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 9935384577 ---> DAC approves procurement of the last available C-17 transport aircraft in the Indian Air Force to make it a total fleet of 11.In picture, full fleet of No 81 Squadrons "Sky Lords".

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Dec 2017 17:27

We now will have to buy new IL-476/90s should we need extra heavylifters.Another opportunity lost when C-17s were available.
Talking about losing opportunities.I saw a titbit that the Dornier Seastar ,an amphib- a small bird, which was offered both to HAL and a pvt. party, has been snapped up by a Chinese co.! When Spicejet has just ordered 100 amphibs you can see the lost opportunity.In fact the Dornier co. could've been picked up by us instead RUAG did.The services continue to order more DO-228s by the way!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Dec 2017 18:19

The civil Dornier version has got DGCA certification.

Also Mahindra’s Aircan 8 and 10 have amphibious versions.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 29 Jan 2018 10:19

http://idrw.org/iaf-may-buy-only-twin-e ... ore-160751

from the above article it would seem that the refluellers could be used airframes with 40 years of life in them, That being the case we should not limit the buy to OEM's Isreal had many years back offered to modify used airframes to aerial tankers, if we could rope them in it might be cost effective.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Jan 2018 10:38

Good read.

IAF may buy twin-engine refueling jets for USD 1.5 billion

In a move that would help the Centre save money, it is now planning to buy only twin-engine aircraft as the next mid-air refueling planes for the Air Force for which even second-hand planes can be offered by vendors.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is once again moving ahead with its programme to augment its fleet of six Russian four-engine Ilyushin-78 planes which have proved to be force multipliers but are very expensive to operate. The requirement for only twin-engine aircraft by the IAF means that effectively the Russians are out of this deal as they don’t have a plane in this class.

The move to allow secondhand planes with 40 years of life left in them for operations is likely to help the government save almost Rs 3,000 crore at the procurement stage itself.

“The requirement for maintaining only two engines per aircraft against the existing four would also help the IAF and the government save more funds in the long run,” a senior government source told Mail Today here.

Under the new project, the IAF is looking to buy planes such as Boeing 737 or the Airbus 330 which can be modified into tanker planes and can replenish Air Force jets mid-air during exercises and operations to enhance their endurance.

................................

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jan 2018 11:45

i hope we go the IAI route. they seem to have some bhaichara with Boeing and have the solution sorted out. I think they make certain cargo conversion parts or complete conversions from pax->cargo for boeing.

as of 2016, there were *742* b767 in service worldwide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... _operators

https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... tatus&p=19
there are some *190* in store - we can easily get some 20 refueler conversions done in the usual combi layout. some could be done up as airborne nuclear command post (looking glass, IL80 maxdome Aimak) , large scale ELINT (RC135 type), large side looking GMTI sensor jstarski.....most of these projects have some israeli involvement already... so IAI is a natural fit for this vs airbus. and some could carry palletized cargo around for IA/IAF as we move to changed logistics than sourcing all stuff locally.

the KC46A seems to have retained the PW4000 engine family the B767 always had, maybe some newer improved model but the engine size and bay is the same...its reliable and used in 777, A300, 747 also and was first to attain ETOPS 180 certification for twin jet ops. so the part with the biggest opex the engines is covered.

infact why not use the same platform for our AWACS than the a330? the JASDF uses 767 awacs for a long time now. as a hybrid awacs cum tanker it could top off its own escorts.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 29 Jan 2018 12:43

^Indeed, now that the 767 seems to be becoming the equivalent 'Long Term Support' software release it kind of makes sense for us to standardize on it for all of our major large platform requirements. It's military version a purpose-built variant, optimized, has economies of scale, and 'right-sized' vs the extra CAPEX and OPEX of the A330.

The Indian forces need to heavily adopt the palletized logistics system like the US Army. This will open up a lot of lower-cost civilian logistics options and platforms, with expensive C17 type systems used only where really needed.

An alternative to the Israeli route, if we can pull it off, is to negotiate with Boeing for an outright purchase with some help from them to modify platforms, just like IAI are doing. This will give us a lot of options and the expertise built can be used with other platforms as well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jan 2018 13:32

Philip wrote:We now will have to buy new IL-476/90s should we need extra heavylifters.Another opportunity lost when C-17s were available.
Talking about losing opportunities.I saw a titbit that the Dornier Seastar ,an amphib- a small bird, which was offered both to HAL and a pvt. party, has been snapped up by a Chinese co.! When Spicejet has just ordered 100 amphibs you can see the lost opportunity.In fact the Dornier co. could've been picked up by us instead RUAG did.The services continue to order more DO-228s by the way!

I dont think so. we can manage with a mix of EC390 Embraer to replace the AN32upg in due course, more C130J and used 767 cargo haulers to move people and mail/food/machinery pallets alone. someone should release a study of just how many of IAF C130/IL76/C17 sorties are to move outsize or very heavy cargo that needs a low floor 1-deck mil airlifter vs stuff that can be loaded via a side cargo door and 2-deck layout incl flexible seating pods. both types have pallet handling systems.

artillery guns, SAMs, radar vehicles, trucks, missile TELARs these I agree need mil airlifters but I would wager 99.99% of time these are moved by train and road. a emergency like legendary Air Cmdre Mehar Singh flying into Poonch and Leh to bring vital people and supplies will be where they get airlifted.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 29 Jan 2018 13:33

Singha wrote:as a hybrid awacs cum tanker it could top off its own escorts.

Dude, please don't start this hybrid business. This will get repeated many many times over for no reason. It will take 2 hours to top off 8-10 birds and by then the first bird will be out again wanting to suckle again. All sensors are going to be off during this process. Everyone is blind. You ideally want a awacs, top cover of 4-6 and an occasional rendezvous with tanker if you are outside your territory. If you are over your own territory, fresh legs/empty bladder is the better way to go.. It roughly costs 10X in fuel costs when you refuel in air vs on land. That includes achieving same altitude/sector. This one machine for awacs/tanker is terrible idea.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jan 2018 13:41

^^ we do not have a surfeit of AWACS to mount a 24x7 coverage over a 3000km front in the case of a all-out war with Cheen. even usaf would be hard pressed to get 9 of its 25 or so E3 into a theater and rotate them into 3 positions in 3 x 8 hr shifts.

4-6 ?? we'd be lucky to manage spare 2 fighters to escort the awacs and they will not move out of safe areas given the S400/S300 and J20 threats looming. all I mentioned was it could top up its escorts only not be a general tanker.

that way escorts could linger a bit longer like 6 hrs than having to again need fresh fighters every 2 hrs. the cost of keeping a drogue kit is minimal vs the $500 mil tag of a AWACS and the fuel tanks hold 90t of fuel no matter who chooses to use it. no harm in keeping options open. its very draining for fighter pilots to fly these long meandering missions but thats life, the nato did it in op northern watch. OBOGS might be mandatory.

we can expect 16 hr AWACS missions to be routine, better plan and train for it. any gap will be ruthlessly exploited. night is no longer a time of low operational tempo and inaccurate targeting with LDP, IIR and Beidou++ type weapons. that means exec class seating and galley for relief crew, sleeping bunks, more toilets, all creature comforts , 4k LED screens that take place of windows inside the EMP hardened shell and provide mental relief from the sense of being sealed in, mood lighting to aid sleep etc. all these solns are available, even emirates has night sky lighting.

even the vanilla 777 has a crawl space above the business class with 2 chairs and 2 beds for relief pilots
http://www.aero-news.net/images/content ... 305-1a.jpg
http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/air ... .jpg?v=v40

we can do better for our crew and we must. lives depend on their alertness and satisfaction levels.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Jan 2018 13:44

Indranil wrote:The civil Dornier version has got DGCA certification.

Also Mahindra’s Aircan 8 and 10 have amphibious versions.

were the erstwhile vayudoot dorniers flying without DGCA certification??

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 29 Jan 2018 14:32

Singha wrote:^^ we do not have a surfeit of AWACS to mount a 24x7 coverage over a 3000km front in the case of a all-out war with Cheen. even usaf would be hard pressed to get 9 of its 25 or so E3 into a theater and rotate them into 3 positions in 3 x 8 hr shifts.

4-6 ?? we'd be lucky to manage spare 2 fighters to escort the awacs and they will not move out of safe areas given the S400/S300 and J20 threats looming. all I mentioned was it could top up its escorts only not be a general tanker.

2 escorts

, we won't have enough AWACS on day 2 or 3 of the war in that case. END of HVAA. There is no way these HVAA are flying without escorts. The earlier mission for the XX Mirages to be purchased were to be in this role. I presume they will send MKI with long legs for this mission now. Which makes a lot more sense as these can fly much longer anyway.

We should move the discussion to awacs thread. The refurbed 767 will work just fine for us and will be a very cost effective solution. We maybe able to afford 10-12 of those puppies and completely move the il-76 to transport role.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2018 15:39

chetak wrote:
Indranil wrote:The civil Dornier version has got DGCA certification.

Also Mahindra’s Aircan 8 and 10 have amphibious versions.
were the erstwhile vayudoot dorniers flying without DGCA certification??

I am not sure. But they must have been.

This recent certification is for the “newer” version that HAL is now assembling completely in-house.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Jan 2018 08:37

Is there any chance that Il-76 could be refitted with cfm56 or leap1a engine for higher uptimes? What needs to happen for it to come true? That could quite easily vitalize our complete transport fleet. It would mean higher uptimes for our AEW as well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2018 08:58

not going to happen. not once in history has a russian origin military plane been refitted with a western engine.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 04 Feb 2018 13:55

C295: Air force close to sealing a mega Make in India defence deal

Inching closer towards finalising the defence deal for 56 transport aircraft to replace the Avro plane fleet, the commercial bids for the programme is expected to be worth over Rs 15,000 crore are going to be opened in the near future.

The programme is the first major 'Make in India' programme in defence sector under which 56 Airbus C-295 transport aircraft are to be produced indigenously in partnership with the Tata group.

Of the 56 planes, 16 would be bought off the shelf from Europe, while the remaining would be acquired from the Tata facilities in India.

"The commercial bids submitted by the joint venture would be opened shortly for the programme after which, if required, there will be negotiations over price and other formalities," sources told MAIL TODAY.

The Avro replacement programme became important for the service after the closure of a similar plan to develop multirole transport aircraft with the Russians. The field trials of the aircraft have already been completed at various locations across the country, and the plane has met the Air Force's requirements, the sources said.

Though the Avro replacement programme was envisaged by the Air Force under the UPA government, it made real progress in 2015 after the NDA government studied its requirement for the services. It was accorded the final nod by the Defence Acquisition Council in May 2015.

In May 2013, the ministry had issued a Request for Proposal (RFP) to original equipment manufacturers, including US firms Boeing and Lockheed Martin, European multinational Airbus Defence and Space and Antonov of Ukraine, among others. They were required to tie-up with an Indian private firm.

However, only Airbus and TATA responded to the RFP. The DAC had approved the Air Force's proposal to go ahead with the single-vendor proposal. Generally, the Defence ministry avoids going for single vendor tender to avoid monopoly and keep away the charges of favouritism.

The programme has attracted many other services also as the Coast Guard has already selected it for its maritime reconnaissance programme under which the DRDO will develop six such planes for the force. The Navy is also likely to come up with a similar programme where it would want to develop an anti-submarine warfare and surveillance platform using the indigenously produced C-295s.

The aircraft is also being offered to the other agencies, including the central police forces and the National Disaster management Authority, who need fixed wing planes for rapid deployment of troops and in times of natural calamities.

"Increase in the requirement of planes by the other agencies will help us in reducing the cost of the planes," the sources said. Sources said with the increasing demand for fixed wing planes, it was expected that the requirement for the planes would be close to 80 such planes.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Feb 2018 14:55

The intensity of ops during the initial stages of any spat put the most intense pressure upon men and machine.It's when the max effort is required.Possessing enough heavyweight transports at that crucial time is essential given the huge payload, 50t+ that a refurbished IL-76 can carry, instead of 2 or more sorties by smaller aircraft.Logistics help win wars.

The Q is do we want to win wars or grumble about fuel efficiency which from the foll. details pose a Q mark about the argument.We already operate 3 AWACS based upon the old IL-76 /A-50 platform which was built in Uzbekistan.The new IL-476s with new fuel-efficient engines are built totally in Russia and all 16+ IL-76s in service plus IL-78 tankers and existing AWACS birds hopefully too in time will be upgraded to the new std., with new engines, etc., making over 20-25 of these heavy platforms of new performance stds. It therefore is asinine to look for a new AWACS platform for a measly two aircraft.One can understand if another 12 or so were being ordered.The logistic/ maintenance effort would be chaotic.

Moreover, these aircraft are far cheaper than any western equiv. The difference in cost per unit is huge and disproportionate why Ru aircraft like SU-35s are red hot in the neutral export market today, being preferred to Rafales, Typhoons and US equivs.The US recently in a brainstorming session by two retd. diplomats trying to promote more sales od US defence eqpt. to India,actually had the temerity to advise India to do away with the lowest price policy and buy "superior" US eqpt.!

The MOD/GOI should first preference ,buy more numbers of aircraft in service whether it is fighters, transports or helos for increasing the inventory and for cost-effective ops, before examining new types.This saves huge procurement time at the MOD the type already approved and in service and avoids setting up a new infrastructure line , training, etc.,which adds to costs.

As far the LT is concerned it is replacement of an entire type for which a new aircraft is required.Good to hear more news about the C-295, but even these and the AN-32 now upgraded cannot replace the heavylifters esp. during a crisis.They will all be needed at that time, even mothballed HS-748s! The lack of enough of them and esp. enough MI-26s hampered our BRO in its Himalayan infrastructure projects, reqd. to carry heavy road building eqpt., of which only 25% has been completed according to official reports.We missed the boat when the C-17 line closed and now have been able to buy just one, the last built. We should've factored in a further option for 6/8 at low inflated cost when the first batch was ordered .Amazing how such a simple thought , of extras at reasonable cost increases seems to be missing from most of our defence deals.One has the option before a deadline whether to order or not.

The C-295 programme could touch well over 100 aircraft if you add civilian types to the list. It has a good future even here with the new UDAN policy for regional connectivity to smaller towns and cities. As AN-32s retire, if another more capable MRS isn't found by then, the C-295s would have to manage.In the sub-continental context, against Pak. in particular, a variety of specialist EW, MRP/ASW aircraft could add to the numbers.

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Feb 2018 15:21

Philip wrote:...
The C-295 programme could touch well over 100 aircraft if you add civilian types to the list. It has a good future even here with the new UDAN policy for regional connectivity to smaller towns and cities. As AN-32s retire, if another more capable MRS isn't found by then, the C-295s would have to manage.In the sub-continental context, against Pak. in particular, a variety of specialist EW, MRP/ASW aircraft could add to the numbers.

C-295 is superior to the An-32 in all aspects. Another 100 C-295 orders possible to replace An-32.

To get a good volume discount as well as getting more production to occur in India, the total requirement (approx. 200 units) should be negotiated with the manufacturer. GoI needs to combine all potential orders from the IAF, IN, IA, CG, various ministries, and paramilitaries.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 04 Feb 2018 15:57

srai wrote:
Philip wrote:...
The C-295 programme could touch well over 100 aircraft if you add civilian types to the list. It has a good future even here with the new UDAN policy for regional connectivity to smaller towns and cities. As AN-32s retire, if another more capable MRS isn't found by then, the C-295s would have to manage.In the sub-continental context, against Pak. in particular, a variety of specialist EW, MRP/ASW aircraft could add to the numbers.
C-295 is superior to the An-32 in all aspects. Another 100 C-295 orders possible to replace An-32.

To get a good volume discount as well as getting more production to occur in India, the total requirement (approx. 200 units) should be negotiated with the manufacturer. GoI needs to combine all potential orders from the IAF, IN, IA, CG, various ministries, and paramilitaries.

Moreover we need to get a deep license whereby we get to create our own variants and spinoffs. Otherwise after another 30 years of screwdriver-giri we will be floating the next tender for a foreign company to come provide 'TOT'.

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Feb 2018 18:20

Bart S wrote:
srai wrote: C-295 is superior to the An-32 in all aspects. Another 100 C-295 orders possible to replace An-32.

To get a good volume discount as well as getting more production to occur in India, the total requirement (approx. 200 units) should be negotiated with the manufacturer. GoI needs to combine all potential orders from the IAF, IN, IA, CG, various ministries, and paramilitaries.
Moreover we need to get a deep license whereby we get to create our own variants and spinoffs. Otherwise after another 30 years of screwdriver-giri we will be floating the next tender for a foreign company to come provide 'TOT'.

I hope we can get true ToT for the C-295 but it is still a money maker for Airbus. It is a gorgeous aircraft and best of class.

The An-32 is a much older and inferior design. BUT that is exactly why we could be able to buy that design and the machinery associated with it. Ukraine is short of funds and is going to the An-132. We can target the An-32, a type we have used for decades and comfortable with as an indigenous supplement to the C-295 which is unlikely to be more than a contacted variant. If we own the An-32 we can alter and make variants to our needs from AEW to MPA to COIN gunship as well as transport.

We need to own a platform. Right now we can forever buying off the global market and pretending that offsets constitute ToT.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Feb 2018 18:41

I think that the AN-70 was at one time an interesting prospect with overwing engines assisting lift, Coanada effdct.Was that the "Coaler"/ NATO name?The AN-74 is widely used and is a good replacement for the AN-32s.We should be able to get a good deal on this bird from the UKR but support now after the spat with Ru. a big Q..

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 04 Feb 2018 18:43

56 for Avro replacement, another 24 for various others, and potentially 100 for An-32 replacement. Surely Tata will be OEM. Good opportunity to bring other friendly customers also on board. They're looking at 30-40 year support on the back of such a huge Indian requirement. Like the 767/KC-46 ecosystem is doing.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 04 Feb 2018 18:46

Chola saar...to late on the An-32. Saudis have already poured moolah in to that aircraft modernization and Antonov has come up with An-132D. Perhaps Saudis get a share of pie from export orders?

BTW, didn't Reliance sign a MOU with Antonov (among the umpteen different MOUs Reliance signed a couple of years back!)? Wonder where that thing is heading towards. Guess the uncertainty in Ukraine makes Anotonov an unreliable business partner.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Feb 2018 20:04

i wonder why the saudis put money into antonov? china i can understand.

must be payoffs for something the ukrainians did to please the saudis.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Feb 2018 20:17

Singha wrote:i wonder why the saudis put money into antonov? china i can understand.

Antonov along with Saudi PSU Taqnia will build a plant to manuf An-132D in Saudi sort of first of a kind in Saudi plus local manuf ....Sort of thing only Antonov can do for them and An-32 is a proven sturdy air frame with Western Engine and Glass Cockpit etc it will get better and more contemporary Taqnia To Build An-132D In Saudi Arabia as the link says they are planning for EASA certification

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Feb 2018 20:59

PRC already has a large industrial base on their An-24 ripoff Y-7 with many variants so they went after the An-225.

I read about Antonov needing to monetize its assets years ago and I thought the An-32 was perfect fit for us. I didn’t follow it afterwards and now find out that Saidi Arabia (thanks Zynda) has made the smart investment.

Yes only Antonov, how often is an established aircraft firm with proven products in a country so distressed that it is willing to allow sales of assets?

Kudos to Saudi Arabia. They surprised me here. Also saddens me too.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Feb 2018 21:14

UAE btw has invested in a drone company...has working products . could be using eu/east european contract designers also.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adcom_Systems

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Feb 2018 21:47

Wiki 32
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-32

Wiki 132
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov/Taqnia_An-132

The figures don't put 132 unequivocally ahead, if they are to be believed. An-32 was created out of An26 specially for India and has served us well. As yet there is no evidence that 132 will be better for IAF's unique conditions other than promises by manufacturer. The proof of the pudding, as always will lie in the eating

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Feb 2018 22:06

Singha wrote:i wonder why the saudis put money into antonov? china i can understand.

must be payoffs for something the ukrainians did to please the saudis.

SA is in the process of diversifying her economy, joining the rest of us. This is a step in that direction. MIC being a major component of the goal.

chola · Post by **chola** » 06 Feb 2018 21:18

Getting a good medium-sized transport that you own rights to is more than just about transports.

Cross-posting from the chini mil thread: what you get from a 60-year-old turboprop simple enough that you could experiment with and build out in countless forms over generations.

The Chini Y-8/Y-9 An-12 ripoff.

They also have a similar stable from their Y-7/Ma-60/600 An-24 ripoff.

I hope we can work out control of the C-295 in similar fashion but less likely with an aircraft that Airbus is still selling. The Saudis will have ownership of the An-132 though it will be less advanced. A pity and a missed opportunity IMHO.