India Border Watch: Security and Operations

[chetak]

This is why we are unable to stop beedi infiltration and the rohingiyas flooding into India.

The creep probably got very greedy and did not take care of the little guys working with him.


BSF commandant held with Rs 45 lakh ‘bribe money’

BSF commandant held with Rs 45 lakh ‘bribe money’


Jibu D Mathew, Commandant of the BSF’s 83rd battalion, was nabbed when he deboarded Shalimar Express at Alappuzha, CBI sources said.

A BSF commandant, posted on the Indo-Bangladesh border, was arrested by the CBI for allegedly accepting bribes from smugglers. The commandant (a position equivalent to superintendent of police) was arrested with Rs 45 lakh in cash, which the CBI said was suspected to be bribe money.

Jibu D Mathew, Commandant of the BSF’s 83rd battalion, was nabbed when he deboarded Shalimar Express at Alappuzha, CBI sources said. They said that the arrest was made following a tip-off about an alleged corruption case.

A CBI team along with an independent witness trailed him in the AC-1 coach of the train from Erankulam junction, they said.

The commandant was intercepted when he got down at Alappuzha, the sources added.

On interrogating Mathew, it was found that he got the money as illegal gratification for favours he extended to smugglers operating on the India-Bangladesh border, according to the FIR.

[Lisa]

Does anyone have details of those Pak bunkers?

The hans have got into the building of paki bunkers, both in cashmere and the gujarat borders.

This is because of improved and more robust construction methods, which in turn afforded greater safety to the pakis.

Forgive me but who cares! Strike further, strike deeper. Let them spend money and material in building up ALL of POK to make it safe. Let the whole of POK live in shelters and holes like rats. As long as their lives are not normal, we win.

Whilst they are in shelters, do what they themselves do, infiltrate POK, mine it, IED it and booby trap it. We have to exponentially impose a cost upon them. Kashmir has destroyed both their domestic and foreign policy and now in its cause we must force them to beggar their nation as well.

[ramana]

India needs to come up with some game changer and not more of the same inaccurate mortars etc.

[chetak]

India needs to come up with some game changer and not more of the same inaccurate mortars etc.

there is some sort of tacit understanding about what can and cannot be heaved over the border.

That's why the IA was surprised at the very recent missile strike on its bunker.

The next unpleasant upgrade to said tacit understanding could be MANPADS and no no wants to go there.

[ramana]

I find it interesting that IA keeps to all BS tacit understandings and gets its young officers and soldiers killed by surprises.

[ArjunPandit]

India needs to come up with some game changer and not more of the same inaccurate mortars etc.

"Game changer" solution will come in long term, right now there is a need to escalate significantly to de-escalate. May be establishment thinks we are not ready fully, but when one is? Right now we get the impression that porkis are controlling the narrative and escalation levels (which may be incorrect). But we need to give the perception that we are the ones who dominate and not just who could dominate on any part/type of line.
May be i know little, but i dont think any of aunt she (xi ) and uncle trump will not come for the rescue of suars.

Modi is struggling from employment generation, hire more in OFB and produce more ammo/arti. Budget deficits can be managed but loss of 21/22 year old to this pigs when kanhaiya khaleed and shehla rashid shout from studios is UNACCEPTABLE to me

on a side note Gamechanger reminds me of CPEC

[ramana]

I want BSF to light up with 105 mm guns and 120 mm mortars and have IA on standby to escalate. Pak are getting kicked by Afghans and Pashtuns along both sides of Durand Line.. This border firing is basically to keep their morale up that they can hit Indians.

The ATGM on FRG hut is a cowardly murder. Its just like a sniper shot from across the border.

All this is ignored in the mutual firing nonsense by eminent reporters.

What burns me is we have lost our sense of outrage and do candle light vigils.

Even here I was hoping at least some one will post what weapon Pakis used so that we understand.

[Akshay Kapoor]

India needs to come up with some game changer and not more of the same inaccurate mortars etc.

there is some sort of tacit understanding about what can and cannot be heaved over the border.

That's why the IA was surprised at the very recent missile strike on its bunker.

The next unpleasant upgrade to said tacit understanding could be MANPADS and no no wants to go there.

There is NO such thing. We have used RL (Carl Gustavs) all the time. We have used missiles on occasions with sanction of Div Commander. One of those Div Commanders became 15 Corps GOC. We have used air defence guns because they are the best against bunkers.

There is no tacit understanding. There is a so called ceasefire. Breaking it formally needs political sanction. In the previous dispensation any weapon above 51 mm mortar was banned. approval had to come from Div HQ. There were enormous rows and heartburn at Command HQ and Army HQ because of this. Now there is more freedom. But Ceasefire is still in place and arty needs give approval.

I’ll post more tomorrow but all gentlemen here there is no tacit understanding.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Ramana sir I am on same page as you. Will post more tomorrow. For now pls read the article I linked earlier. It’s Gen Hasnain. One thing he talks about is hardening our defences something you know I have been harping on for sometime on BR and other forum as you know. We need to do this ASAP.

Second you are quite right that this is a very aggressive act. It should technically be an act of war. But our thresholds have become too high. We will retaliate but this tit for tat is not working. Message needs to be calibrated much higher. We must escalate two notches up all the time. Air assets must be put in action now. That is the only language that the message will go through.

Panditji I agree we need to escalate to descalate.

[ramana]

Yes. I read that article.

But its defensive in tone with building bunkers etc which may be a good thing to shelter from Paki fire.

Read the Timenow report which is typical. Doesn't even tell what happened.

LINK

Am sick of the word violating ceasefire as if its some sacred thing?

Can we have some better words for the Paki action than violating ceasefire?

[Rakesh]

^^ Yes. Pakistani aggression. No difference between the terrorists that the Pak Army sends over the border under the guise of ceasefire violation versus the Pak soldiers at the border. Uniform or no uniform, they are all terrorists whose sole purpose is to destabilize India. At the border or within the country, is a moot point. This is blatant aggression and must be replied in the same manner. Some people only understand the danda.

[ArjunPandit]

Ramana sir I am on same page as you. Will post more tomorrow. For now pls read the article I linked earlier. It’s Gen Hasnain. One thing he talks about is hardening our defences something you know I have been harping on for sometime on BR and other forum as you know. We need to do this ASAP.

Second you are quite right that this is a very aggressive act. It should technically be an act of war. But our thresholds have become too high. We will retaliate but this tit for tat is not working. Message needs to be calibrated much higher. We must escalate two notches up all the time. Air assets must be put in action now. That is the only language that the message will go through.

Panditji I agree we need to escalate to descalate.

No ji for me, not sure, where this tacit understanding coming up, shatrujeet on has been posting on fb videos of ATGMs or some other missiles blasting pigholes. SS and recent escalation have confirmed the impotence of pakis even to a civvie like me. I dream of LCH, Tejas and Su 30 contingent blasting their ammo and AGDPI posting videos on fb with title "Kya ukhad loge? " or sink a ship dare them to escalate. This incremental way works better for paki. Right now we are simply playing to their advantage. I am not an expert on escalation ladders/scenarios but the paki's can't escalate and if they escalate will loose badly. Even if they have a face saver, the damage of their capital intensive assets, e.g., F16, ships/submarines will keep them quite for good amount of time to come.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Yes. I read that article.

But its defensive in tone with building bunkers etc which may be a good thing to shelter from Paki fire.

Read the Timenow report which is typical. Doesn't even tell what happened.

LINK

Am sick of the word violating ceasefire as if its some sacred thing?

Can we have some better words for the Paki action than violating ceasefire?

No its not defensive, its bringing out the problem that we have become too used to fighting with what we have and not asking for what is needed. he gives the URI example how as the brigade commander he initiated case for wall, it wasn't done so he did it as Div Commander and then again as Corps Commander. Its a sad joke. Do read what the conditions are on LC. Really bad. Do read it again.

If our defences are hardened then we can escalate in a big way. Good defenses provide the scaffolding/base for good offense. Theirs are hardened.

Now coming to offensive action, the game has to be changed.

We should bring up SATA batteries UAVs from strike corps to be prepared for counter battery fire. We should also bring up more ATGMs if needed and issue them to selected units on LC. 4/5 sectors should be selected and we should attack their posts with concentrated and coordinated ATGM fire and and arty fire assaults. We should keep an eagle eye out for arty retaliation and if it happens we should use our SATA batteries to direct fire to take out their arty units. We should also use this opportunity to blow up their ammunition dumps and fuel dumps. We should then go and hold ground in some places and locally realign the LC to our advantage.

IAF should do aggressive patrolling and AWACS should be in the sky to ensure their AF does nothing. They won't anyway.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Ramana sir I am on same page as you. Will post more tomorrow. For now pls read the article I linked earlier. It’s Gen Hasnain. One thing he talks about is hardening our defences something you know I have been harping on for sometime on BR and other forum as you know. We need to do this ASAP.

Second you are quite right that this is a very aggressive act. It should technically be an act of war. But our thresholds have become too high. We will retaliate but this tit for tat is not working. Message needs to be calibrated much higher. We must escalate two notches up all the time. Air assets must be put in action now. That is the only language that the message will go through.

Panditji I agree we need to escalate to descalate.

No ji for me, not sure, where this tacit understanding coming up, shatrujeet on has been posting on fb videos of ATGMs or some other missiles blasting pigholes. SS and recent escalation have confirmed the impotence of pakis even to a civvie like me. I dream of LCH, Tejas and Su 30 contingent blasting their ammo and AGDPI posting videos on fb with title "Kya ukhad loge? " or sink a ship dare them to escalate. This incremental way works better for paki. Right now we are simply playing to their advantage. I am not an expert on escalation ladders/scenarios but the paki's can't escalate and if they escalate will loose badly. Even if they have a face saver, the damage of their capital intensive assets, e.g., F16, ships/submarines will keep them quite for good amount of time to come.

Yes, there is no tacit understanding. There is a formal casefire...you know how well its holding.

[Lisa]

India needs to come up with some game changer and not more of the same inaccurate mortars etc.

"Game changer" solution will come in long term, right now there is a need to escalate significantly to de-escalate. May be establishment thinks we are not ready fully, but when one is? Right now we get the impression that porkis are controlling the narrative and escalation levels (which may be incorrect). But we need to give the perception that we are the ones who dominate and not just who could dominate on any part/type of line.
May be i know little, but i dont think any of aunt she (xi ) and uncle trump will not come for the rescue of suars.

The pukis process the initiative and are currently causing us misery. We are ONLY reactive. This policy is a failure. Period.

India must the the aggressor who is responsible for ALL ceasefire violations. We need to seize the initiative and the equilibrium must lie with us. Until then this thread will remain live.

[Aditya_V]

Yes thats the problem, we don't seem too understand Pakis follow no treaty or law. We need to keep using all assets to Target Pakis, whether this 1 month, 2 months, 6 months, we need to inflict significant casualties for them to temporarily de-escalate and we start rearming ourselves with requisite numbers and infrastructure.

Unless we break up Pakistan eventually there will be no peace.

[Akshay Kapoor]

"Game changer" solution will come in long term, right now there is a need to escalate significantly to de-escalate. May be establishment thinks we are not ready fully, but when one is? Right now we get the impression that porkis are controlling the narrative and escalation levels (which may be incorrect). But we need to give the perception that we are the ones who dominate and not just who could dominate on any part/type of line.
May be i know little, but i dont think any of aunt she (xi ) and uncle trump will not come for the rescue of suars.

The pukis process the initiative and are currently causing us misery. We are ONLY reactive. This policy is a failure. Period.

India must the the aggressor who is responsible for ALL ceasefire violations. We need to seize the initiative and the equilibrium must lie with us. Until then this thread will remain live.

I agree. But for this to happen it needs political sanction. Whether it will come or not I don’t know but I do think this is the most conducive govt for it. So Gen Rawat should test this - do it and see if govt asks him to stop.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Aditya read Op Kartikeya by Airawat Singh.

[Deans]

The pukis process the initiative and are currently causing us misery. We are ONLY reactive. This policy is a failure. Period.

India must the the aggressor who is responsible for ALL ceasefire violations. We need to seize the initiative and the equilibrium must lie with us. Until then this thread will remain live.

Judging by the casualties reported in the Pak press, I don't believe our policy is reactive any more. The army has more freedom of action than it has hitherto had, though personally I'd like to see an artillery division deployed on the LOC. Along with Corps artillery from the 3 corps in J&K, the corps in Yol and one of our strike corps, we should have a 3:1 superiority in artillery, on the LOC, even if PA activates its own corps level artillery.

Pak did not admit to casualties to the extent it is doing so now, though of course, almost all of them will be women and kids, who were reading the koran when Hindoo shells struck.

[Akshay Kapoor]

But the fence will be targeted by them. That will be a problem for us. Better to completely take out their arty if they make any arty action whatsoever. We should protect the fence with extreme prejudice as they say in American TV.

[Manish_P]

And move the fence westwards little by little. Create a buffer zone. Widen the buffer zone for every transgression. Slowly by slowly make it wide enough to try and protect our border settlements progressively from long range small arms (rifles) and medium arms (small mortars) fire. Capture and use the hardend bunkers built by the Pakis for ourselves. Bring the pakis to the point of debating whether they dare escalation using heavy artillery. Eventually let the buffer zone be deep enough that costly relocation of our border settlements is not required. Every time the track two, WKKs ilk feel an itch, ask them to take up this buffer zone and make it the India Pakistan peace pathway.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Yes we need to do this. Again needs political sanction and direction and funds.

[nam]

Pakis regularly claim, they don't fire on to our side, because "they dont fire on Muslims". We should fire artillery from some of those Pak friendly border towns. If Pakis dont fire, got for us, if they do then those villages will feel the love.

[nam]

The next unpleasant upgrade to said tacit understanding could be MANPADS and no no wants to go there.

If Pakis use MANPADs, we need go full monty and carry out airstrikes on their forward bases on LoC. It is pointless not firing 155 MM due to the fear of Paki using MANPADS in Kashmir.

We have option like 155MM, SF painted LG rockets, Pinaka PG rocket etc. These can be fired from depth.

Having said that, my personal opinion is IA does not want to escalate. I don't know the reason, why. May be IA does not want troops diverted from COIN, i don't know.

It is not like MoD will say no using 155MM or attack only one post.

No one is stopping IA from attacking multiple posts at once. Even in the previous response for killing of the Major, IA responsed with attack on one post!

[Aditya_V]

While the Pakis have wells stocked artillery, till recently we didn't start acquiring 155mm artillery etc. AKN legacy is that he left an unarmed nation while leaving office which is taking time to rebuild.

[nam]

While the Pakis have wells stocked artillery, till recently we didn't start acquiring 155mm artillery etc. AKN legacy is that he left an unarmed nation while leaving office which is taking time to rebuild.

The Saint obviously screwed up our preparedness, however it not fully true that we lack artillery. We may not have inducted new & modern artillery, however the Bofors were available. OFB produced many parts and the remaining were imported from BAE.

We have Dhanush because OFB was producing Bofors parts. We used 155 MM like crazy in Kargil & 2001-03. There is no way the guns would have survived till this date, if not for the fact that we had access to spare parts.

[fanne]

and we had soviet era 130 mm guns many upgunned to 155mm

[nachiket]

and we had soviet era 130 mm guns many upgunned to 155mm

The M-46 has limitations in mountainous areas like the LoC due to the max elevation restricted to 45 degrees.

[nachiket]

chetak ji, IA being surprised by ATGM stirke on our bunker doesn't compute since they themselves have used ATGMs in the past for fire assaults. We even saw that in one of the videos.

The problem with this kind of exchange of fire is that it is only a matter of time before the Pakis bring out the same weapons that we do and start using them in quantity. Ideally we should have a significant firepower advantage but like posters have pointed out our messed up procurement during the last decade+ has left us without that advantage. We had to denude other sectors of 155mm guns during Kargil to get adequate artillery support for our boys. Situation today isn't much better. PA is also well stocked on ATGMs, mortars and other heavy weapons. No easy choices here, though we should continue using what we have to cause maximum pain. Hit deeper inside if we can since their officers like to hang behind.

[ramana]

nachiket, One retired officer on Twitter had said the forward post was a FRG hut. Its not a bunker.

He also thought it was direct hit by a mortar and I questioned him as mortars don't have that much accuracy to hit a point target.
Other reports said that Pakis fired five or six ATGMS and one of them hit the FRG hut and caused casualties.


So using ATGMS on a FRG hut is overkill and a surprise.

As I said before that is overkill and in no-war state is murder.

[Lisa]

The pukis process the initiative and are currently causing us misery. We are ONLY reactive. This policy is a failure. Period.

India must the the aggressor who is responsible for ALL ceasefire violations. We need to seize the initiative and the equilibrium must lie with us. Until then this thread will remain live.

I agree. But for this to happen it needs political sanction. Whether it will come or not I don’t know but I do think this is the most conducive govt for it. So Gen Rawat should test this - do it and see if govt asks him to stop.

Akshayji,

I might yet eat crow.

From http://www.rediff.com/news/special/bajw ... 180205.htm

"This has caused Rawat to actually concede -- the first time an army chief has done so -- that India was violating the ceasefire to punish Pakistani posts that support infiltration.

On January 12, he stated: 'Earlier, we were targeting only infiltrating militants. But these extremists are disposable commodities for Pakistan. Instead, the pain has to be felt by the Pakistan armed forces for supporting infiltration. So we have started targeting his (Pakistan's) posts and I can assure you that, in these exchanges of fire, he has suffered three-four times the casualties. That is why we get repeated requests from Pakistan to take the ceasefire back to 2003 levels.'

In a snub to the Pakistan army, Rawat said: 'If we see a drop in infiltration along the LoC, we are willing to call for a ceasefire, but not until (then). This is in full coordination with the government.'"

[ramana]

It looks like a motivated article by Ajai Shukla who seems to have activated his Track Two hat.
The article makes Bajwa as a reasonable Pak which he is not.

[nachiket]

It looks like a motivated article by Ajai Shukla who seems to have activated his Track Two hat.
The article makes Bajwa as a reasonable Pak which he is not.

Ajai Shukla plumbs new depths every day. Pakis always speak with a forked tongue and he should know that better than others considering he was an IA officer.

And he himself undermines the entire thrust of his article in the last 2 paras:

"Bajwa is due to retire in November 2019, which provides an assured 22-month window. It is impossible to tell who will succeed him or whether the next army chief would have the same mindset."

New Delhi would remember that Kayani, who succeeded Musharraf in 2007, quickly scuttled his predecessor's Four-Point Formula, bringing to naught the most promising peace initiative in the history of Indo-Pak relations and taking both countries back to the start line.

So even if we accept his implication that Bajwa is reasonable any "agreement" we might reach with him may not survive the next army chief. What is the point of talking then? Everything he wrote before becomes bakwas.

[ArjunPandit]

In a snub to the Pakistan army, Rawat said: 'If we see a drop in infiltration along the LoC, we are willing to call for a ceasefire, but not until (then). This is in full coordination with the government.'"

The narrative has to move towards, if we do not see pakis from LC to IB (IB as it should have been ), we may consider pakistani importunations of a ceasefire

[Akshay Kapoor]

Re Shuklaji (I don't call him Col because this Paki pandering by him has made me lose respect) the problem maybe the following - power does strange things to people if you don't have a strong spiritual compass. It clouds the vision so you cannot see the truth, it makes you believe in your infallibility and it makes you do things to satisfy your ego regardless of reality. I have seen some journalists like that. They have an unerring belief in what they say as if it were words from Brahma. The solution is Shiv Sadhna. Maha Shivratri is coming. Sadhguru recommends a 21,7 or 3 day Sadhana. Window for 21 and 7 is gone so he should do the 3 day sadhana. It might give him a clearer vision.

Back to topic - he is talking bullshit.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Lisaji, if you were a model by the same name I would have said 'aap ke or mere khayal kitne milte julte hain'.

[Lisa]

My contract does not allow me to divulge any more but nevertheless, many thanks.

P.S. Want to buy a photo?

Sidebar, I couldn't give a fig for Shukla's comments, its his quote Of General Rawat that has me interested.

[Akshay Kapoor]

My contract does not allow me to divulge any more but nevertheless, many thanks.

P.S. Want to buy a photo?

Sidebar, I couldn't give a fig for Shukla's comments, its his quote Of General Rawat that has me interested.

Yes I know why you quoted Shukla. Imp thing to note is govt has given go ahead. Nothing can happen without that. I kept saying that. Anyway We are truly lucky to have a normal govt. and let’s hope they come back stronger after 2019. Otherwise we are screwed.

Re pic no thanks ....I’ve seen too much altered carbon lately.

[chetak]

Re Shuklaji (I don't call him Col because this Paki pandering by him has made me lose respect) the problem maybe the following - power does strange things to people if you don't have a strong spiritual compass. It clouds the vision so you cannot see the truth, it makes you believe in your infallibility and it makes you do things to satisfy your ego regardless of reality. I have seen some journalists like that. They have an unerring belief in what they say as if it were words from Brahma.

This person was married to menaka gandhi's sister Ambika, divorced her and married sonia, a journo with the indian express..

His clout comes from Suman Dubey, who is his brother in law and an accused in the national herald case and a gandhi family insider.

This is why he throws his weight around and no one touches him.

[putnanja]

Not to mention that Shukla has a visceral hatred of Modi/BJP. So like other anti-Modi folks, they have become anti-India too, if it can paint Modi in bad light. So no surprises there.