Indian Military Helicopters

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 13 Feb 2018 06:35

I was just thinking - nothing Russian is made in BLR..but all the "weshtern" and Indian stuff is..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakkaji » 13 Feb 2018 21:54

My guess is that Ka-226T will be in a new facility separate from all other HAL facilities. I recall there was talk of bringing in an Indian private sector partner in this project as a partner at a later stage, so HAL would probably not want to share any of their other locations for this venture.

At different times, Khemkas (of Russia fame) and Chhota Bhai have been mentioned as potential partners.

If they select Nagpur as the location, then my speculation will be right

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 14 Feb 2018 00:12

I hope it gets a quiet burial when LUH gets IOC by the end of this year.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Neela » 14 Feb 2018 00:53

Baba Kalyani interview on Swarajyamag.


This is a smaller engine (for UAVs—unmanned aerial vehicles — and drones), and has about 120kg thrust. We will now target a 400kg thrust, then we will go to a helicopter engine, which is a 1,100kg thrust.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 14 Feb 2018 01:12

If the facility where the Ka-226T will be assembled is not decided yet then I propose a committee composed of a retired general, a retired Babu and a retired judge be formed to evaluate various locations and submit a non binding report.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 14 Feb 2018 02:11

^^^^^^^
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bart S » 14 Feb 2018 03:27

abhik wrote:If the facility where the Ka-226T will be assembled is not decided yet then I propose a committee composed of a retired general, a retired Babu and a retired judge be formed to evaluate various locations and submit a non binding report.


Deve Gowda and Renuka Choudhary to provide parliamentary supervision as part of a committee where AK Antony has to sign off on and take responsibility for every decision.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 14 Feb 2018 04:24

And of course Rahul Gandhi who will have agents et al to skim the deal.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 14 Feb 2018 07:00

Indranil wrote:I hope it gets a quiet burial when LUH gets IOC by the end of this year.

To me this sounds like a death wish for a part of our army that are supplied by helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 14 Feb 2018 08:17

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote:I hope it gets a quiet burial when LUH gets IOC by the end of this year.

To me this sounds like a death wish for a part of our army that are supplied by helicopters

the cheetahs will fly more hours than the hours required to build and operationalise their Ka226 replacements.
(just a prediction, just like the Jags that are being told to soldier on)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 14 Feb 2018 10:02

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote:I hope it gets a quiet burial when LUH gets IOC by the end of this year.

To me this sounds like a death wish for a part of our army that are supplied by helicopters

No sir. They will be supplied through ALHs. At the moment, the rate at which “talks” are “progressing”, I can’t see how KA-226 is going to beat the LUH in terms of time to production. On top of that the election year is upon us.

If the Army wishes, HAL can start limited serial production of LUH right after it achieves IOC. It can ramp up pretty fast too given the ALH experience.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Shubham » 14 Feb 2018 11:48

Indranil wrote:
shiv wrote:To me this sounds like a death wish for a part of our army that are supplied by helicopters

No sir. They will be supplied through ALHs. At the moment, the rate at which “talks” are “progressing”, I can’t see how KA-226 is going to beat the LUH in terms of time to production. On top of that the election year is upon us.

If the Army wishes, HAL can start limited serial production of LUH right after it achieves IOC. It can ramp up pretty fast too given the ALH experience.


I don't think that IA and IAF are too worried about keeping forward areas supplied even in places like Soltoro and else where. Induction of Cheetal has increased reliability of operations by a big margin. Both Army and Airforce seems to be lapping up the number of cheetal that are required and can be supplied by HAL. The fact that cheetah and it's derivatives have single engine is a fact that just can't be wished away. That apart if HAL plays ball and avoidable wear and tear are taken care by regular supply of spare parts then Cheetal will probably continue to undertake major portion of the work for maybe a decade more.

ALH has not been such a success story as it could have been , hence Cheetal will continue to do the heavy lifting, figuratively.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby prabhug » 14 Feb 2018 12:09

I had few doubts
1.Can ALH fly with single engine ???
2.Is it O.k to take a 500kg penalty ???

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Shubham » 14 Feb 2018 12:57

prabhug wrote:I had few doubts
1.Can ALH fly with single engine ???
2.Is it O.k to take a 500kg penalty ???


1. I assume that you mean that in case one engine fails or the pilot is Forced to switch off one engine, can heli fly ? .

It depends on the performance class of the helicopter and loading. I believe that ALH must be performance class 2 ie even if one engine fails it can be recovered safely by controlled force landing or flying away (except during take off or landing; WHEN below a certain height AND slower then a certain speed). But for this the helicopter weight should be at or below that specified by manufacturer graph for that altitude and temperature.
Except in some grave emergency the helicopter would always be loaded to be able to fly with just one engine.

2. Reducing load to increase safety is an option but that at times means there is no useful load which can be carried. We are forced to operate in hot and high. Thus it is a gamble to either consider safety or maximise load that can be delivered.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 14 Feb 2018 14:55

In case of old engine of ALH Category A performance( i.e, safe takeoff with one engine inoperative) was 5.3T MTOW and for more powerful Shakti engine it should be higher.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 14 Feb 2018 21:37

Indranil wrote:
shiv wrote:To me this sounds like a death wish for a part of our army that are supplied by helicopters

No sir. They will be supplied through ALHs. At the moment, the rate at which “talks” are “progressing”, I can’t see how KA-226 is going to beat the LUH in terms of time to production. On top of that the election year is upon us.

If the Army wishes, HAL can start limited serial production of LUH right after it achieves IOC. It can ramp up pretty fast too given the ALH experience.

I would prefer to wait and see what happens. I will return to this topic in due course.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 15 Feb 2018 01:01

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote:I hope it gets a quiet burial when LUH gets IOC by the end of this year.

To me this sounds like a death wish for a part of our army that are supplied by helicopters


With the Ka-226T's deal not yet having been signed, no assembly and manufacturing facility setup work having been started, one can safely assume that its local assembly won't start anytime before the LUH is delivered to the armed forces. The only Ka-226Ts that could be delivered early would be Russian built ones, and even those won't arrive till at least 1 year of the contract signature. Which means the IA will basically gain about 1 to 1.5 years at the very most, by going for Ka-226Ts, assuming contract signature happens sometime this year.

We are most likely to see both the Ka-226T and LUH enter service almost simultaneously. Dumping the Ka-226T will, IMO, hardly make that big a difference.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 15 Feb 2018 01:30

prabhug wrote:I had few doubts
1.Can ALH fly with single engine ???
2.Is it O.k to take a 500kg penalty ???

I am confused about your questions.

1. Can ALH fly with single engine? Yes, in case of an emergency when one of the engines fails.
2. Is it O.k to take a 500kg penalty ??? If you mean use it operationally as a light utility heli by using only one of its engines, then it is a really uninformed question. The answer is: No.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2018 07:54

Kartik wrote: Dumping the Ka-226T will, IMO, hardly make that big a difference.

This is a judgement call - an opinion, if you like, and all of us have our views. Like I said - 20-20 hindsight is always a better perspective - let us wait and see what happens.

My personal viewpoint on this is that I think there is an underestimation of helicopter needs in India and an overestimation of HAL's ability to deliver. The forces are just one part of the story but we are looking at police, other militias and civil uses as well as ambulance, firefighting, agriculture, tourism and forestry. Anyone who lives in an Indian city will see that new high rises come with helipads on top. And gradually - helicopter services are being offered for various commuter uses. For example the Jain community, a wealth community needs its elderly to be carried up the hill for a visit to their holy Gomateshwara on the hill. The court has banned cable cars. Next step would be a helicopter.

Yes, this thread is about military helicopters but the same companies are making military and civil versions so manufacture and supply will be a chokepoint

I do not have any figures - but I am willing to stick my neck out and guess that fuel costs in carrying several tons of Dhruv to Siachen will exceed fuel costs of carrying fewer tons in a light helicopter - so I am unwilling to buy the argument that Dhruv will simply serve as LUH until LUH comes. If Dhruv was the same - why have an LUH at all?
Last edited by shiv on 15 Feb 2018 07:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2018 07:58

It's good that we are going with HAL product than unused twice failed KA-226T. IMO another order of 60-80 mi-17 in lieu of KA-226T should be given. It will be a while till IMRH makes debut.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 15 Feb 2018 10:04

shiv wrote:I do not have any figures - but I am willing to stick my neck out and guess that fuel costs in carrying several tons of Dhruv to Siachen will exceed fuel costs of carrying fewer tons in a light helicopter - so I am unwilling to buy the argument that Dhruv will simply serve as LUH until LUH comes. If Dhruv was the same - why have an LUH at all?

Of course, it is inefficient to use a Dhruv where an LUH will do. Also there is very small clutch of things which a mosquito class can do that Dhruv cannot. For example, the latest casualty evacuation that was effected from the rocky banks of the river near Tibba cave. I am sure that a Dhruv can reach there, but can it land on those rocks?

However, what other option do our armed forces have? Come the next Modi-Putin hug-fest, another MoU will be signed. I can't see Ka-226 orders happening even two years from now. No ground work has been completed. I will leave it at that.

Cybaru wrote:It's good that we are going with HAL product than unused twice failed KA-226T. IMO another order of 60-80 mi-17 in lieu of KA-226T should be given. It will be a while till IMRH makes debut.

Prudent.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Shubham » 15 Feb 2018 20:39

Some of the posters are having the views that ALH is inefficient wrt Cheetah class helicopters, but the usage of a single engine helicopter is nothing short of senseless and gross disregard of various risks which need not be taken in 99.99 per cases. Flying a single engine at high altitudes is just like challenging Yamraj and asking " let's see who has more guts !! "

An apt analogy of flying a cheetah is akin to flying a fighter jet with no ejection seats !!!

So twin engine helicopter is needed even if it's operationsl costs are multiple times higher. Just because ALH has not quite got into grooves and cheetals have been extremely safe till now doesn't mean all is well.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2018 22:01

Shubham wrote:Some of the posters are having the views that ALH is inefficient wrt Cheetah class helicopters, but the usage of a single engine helicopter is nothing short of senseless and gross disregard of various risks which need not be taken in 99.99 per cases. Flying a single engine at high altitudes is just like challenging Yamraj and asking " let's see who has more guts !! "

An apt analogy of flying a cheetah is akin to flying a fighter jet with no ejection seats !!!

So twin engine helicopter is needed even if it's operationsl costs are multiple times higher. Just because ALH has not quite got into grooves and cheetals have been extremely safe till now doesn't mean all is well.

That is not what the air force thinks as far as I can tell. This is simply something that you feel is "logical and reasonable". As an opinion this is fine - but the Air Force has to work with constraints that go beyond BRFite opinions.

Let me ask you a question that perhaps you have an answer for. Will the Dhruv be able to take off and land at Siachen heights on one engine? If you don't have an answer please see if you can find out and let me know. Perhaps something is missing from the information I have.

And a request to all - the LCA is the Tejas. The ALH is Dhruv.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2018 00:01

Shubham,

Although, there is security in redundancy, modern aircraft engines are incredibly robust. Do the Chetaks & Cheetahs have a worse safety record than let's say the Dhruvs and Mi-17s? How about the Mirages over Mig-29s or Jaguars?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bart S » 16 Feb 2018 00:52

Would unmanned platforms (which could be built from something simple like a Cheetah) be viable to do stuff like dangerous high-altitude supply drops?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2018 01:25

Now, THAT IS A GREAT IDEA!!!!! I had not thought about it. Not only does it not risk the pilot but increase payload by about 100 kgs. I think the challenge will be the waypoint navigation.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 16 Feb 2018 01:38

Del..
Last edited by Cybaru on 16 Feb 2018 02:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2018 01:49

Ok. Humor not needed here.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2018 02:55

I wonder if this was posted in this thread.
Turns out there was crack in the winch per twitter.


Chetak posted on 12 Jan 2018!!!!

chetak wrote:


twitter

It was a Crack in the winch of Dhruv which caused the accident injuring 3 IA soldiers.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2018 03:24

There was no winch involved.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2018 07:15

Bart S wrote:Would unmanned platforms (which could be built from something simple like a Cheetah) be viable to do stuff like dangerous high-altitude supply drops?

Drops are one thing. Drop and pick up is another thing. The pick up is not always from a pre-designated site - but has to be decided on the spot by the pilot. I am not sure how good it would be for a casualty/high alt sickness victim to be thrown into an unmanned helo because its unsafe for the pilot but safe enough for the sick soldier. That looks like hypocrisy to me.

You have no doubt read this story - it is the epitome of human decision making in the chain

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/histo ... -nose.html

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2018 08:01

At the moment, casualty evacuation cannot by done by UAVs. How they search for a casualty, decide on where to land , perform the landing, load the casualty etc.

But ferry services from helipad to helipad whose GPS coordinates are well known can certainly be offloaded.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2018 08:30

Right now I think the world leaders in this tech are struggling with delivery. Add to that the uncertainties of Himalayan weather - we are looking at a quantum leap in sensors and AI tech to make real time decisions. This would be a "research project"

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 16 Feb 2018 08:36

Gotta start somewhere and not all use cases need to be covered. Version 20 might get all that you desire, but if you don't start, we will be in the same cycle for ever.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 16 Feb 2018 08:36

A detachment of Marines from Marine Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Squadron 1 in Afghanistan completed their first unmanned aerial system cargo delivery in a combat zone, Dec. 17, 2011. The unmanned helicopter moved about 3,500 pounds of food and supplies from Camp Dwyer to troops at Combat Outpost Payne. The helicopter, an unmanned variant of the K-MAX, completed the delivery in about an hour and a half.




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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 16 Feb 2018 08:40

THE MARINES' SELF-FLYING CHOPPER SURVIVES A THREE-YEAR TOUR
https://www.wired.com/2014/07/kmax-auto ... elicopter/

Lockheed delivered two of the helicopters to the Marine Corps in Afghanistan in 2011. The original plan was for a six-month stint lugging around 750-pound pallets full of food, water, generators, and other supplies. The K-MAX kept exceeding expectations, McMillen says (asked to move 6,000 pounds in a day, it handled 30,000). Its contract was extended indefinitely.

The two helicopters were surprisingly reliable, largely thanks to the simplicity of the original design. At least one of them was ready to fly 94 percent of the time. That’s even more impressive when you consider that one was taken out of service about a year ago, after being damaged in a hard landing. The aircraft required 1.4 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight, and cost $1,300 per hour, numbers that are “just unheard of for a developmental system,” McMillen says.

With the U.S. presence in Afghanistan winding down, the K-MAX has come home. In three years, it flew thousands of delivery missions, mostly at night, and lifted more than 4.5 million pounds of cargo. Lockheed is already working on a fresh project with the Army. The K-MAX will airlift the unmanned Squad Mission Support System into a mock hostile territory, to see if it’s possible to take human forces out of danger altogether.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 16 Feb 2018 08:41

Lockheed Martin's official website on K-MAX ---> https://lockheedmartin.com/us/products/kmax.html

Whether the unmanned K-MAX is fighting fires, delivering supplies to the U.S. military, or supporting humanitarian aid efforts, it provides unmatched lift capability in extreme conditions. From the mountainous Alps to the Persian Gulf, the rugged system can lift and deliver a full 6,000 lbs. of cargo at sea level and more than 4,000 lbs. at a 15,000 ft. density altitude.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 16 Feb 2018 08:48

Thanks for sharing Rakesh. It seems like lots of work has already been done in this space!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Shubham » 16 Feb 2018 09:51

shiv wrote:
Shubham wrote:Some of the posters are having the views that ALH is inefficient wrt Cheetah class helicopters, but the usage of a single engine helicopter is nothing short of senseless and gross disregard of various risks which need not be taken in 99.99 per cases. Flying a single engine at high altitudes is just like challenging Yamraj and asking " let's see who has more guts !! "

An apt analogy of flying a cheetah is akin to flying a fighter jet with no ejection seats !!!

So twin engine helicopter is needed even if it's operationsl costs are multiple times higher. Just because ALH has not quite got into grooves and cheetals have been extremely safe till now doesn't mean all is well.

That is not what the air force thinks as far as I can tell. This is simply something that you feel is "logical and reasonable". As an opinion this is fine - but the Air Force has to work with constraints that go beyond BRFite opinions.

Let me ask you a question that perhaps you have an answer for. Will the Dhruv be able to take off and land at Siachen heights on one engine? If you don't have an answer please see if you can find out and let me know. Perhaps something is missing from the information I have.

And a request to all - the LCA is the Tejas. The ALH is Dhruv.


Just as a rough calculation, Dhruv is about 3000 lbs heavier in empty weight wrt Cheetah. So at heights of saltoro ridge where at times cheetah pilots are just able to carry one Jerry can of 50 lbs, on just single engine of Dhruv , the engine needs to lift 3000 lbs of dead weight, then this will rule out any useful load being carried.

At BRF we are making full use of hindsight !! and as has been brought up in several different discussion we know that decisions made in the past are not always correct.
Airforce and army have long wanted to phase out single engine helicopters specially in high altitudes , they came tantalizingly close to finalizing one Eurocopter variant just before one accident ( freak, avoidable , human error) caused various tussles and the deal went down the drain. Btw that variety had better specs and actual performance far ahead of cheetah. That French test pilot later rise to fame by landing in Everest.
Further maybe army/af thought that lets cheetah soldier on as they were in sight of finalizing the deal to replace them with a twin engine light helicopter.
My reading of economics of operations in this case is that, it is actually Cheaper to spend more in day to day operations over a life time then to loose several helicopter along with trained pilots and personal.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2018 09:53

shiv wrote:Right now I think the world leaders in this tech are struggling with delivery. Add to that the uncertainties of Himalayan weather - we are looking at a quantum leap in sensors and AI tech to make real time decisions. This would be a "research project"

AI, I don't know! But yes, it is a research project which is much better than amphibians with rows!


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