Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 27 Feb 2018 14:27

The small opening on the side of the air intake, could that be enough while engine is on minimal power (idling) ?

Kumarvinod · Post by **Kumarvinod** » 27 Feb 2018 14:33

Hot refilling done on tejas.

Kumarvinod · Post by **Kumarvinod** » 27 Feb 2018 14:34

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Feb 2018 14:51

^^^

...
In the history of IAF aircraft, LCA will be the first aircraft to fly with this unique capability of hot refueling and HAL has successfully demonstrated this on LCA Tejas LSP8 aircraft.
...

Does that mean existing fighters like MiG-21/27/29, Su-30MKI, Jaguar and Mirage-2000 can’t do so?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 27 Feb 2018 15:06

srai wrote:^^^
...
In the history of IAF aircraft, LCA will be the first aircraft to fly with this unique capability of hot refueling and HAL has successfully demonstrated this on LCA Tejas LSP8 aircraft.
...
Does that mean existing fighters like MiG-21/27/29, Su-30MKI, Jaguar and Mirage-2000 can’t do so?

If they could, I've never heard. Hot refueling was an issue in the Mi 17 series helicopters too.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 27 Feb 2018 17:36

What are the major challenges in hot refueling.. as compared to aerial refueling ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2018 17:39

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 5025?s=19g

Posting same news.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Feb 2018 20:36

srai wrote:^^^
...
In the history of IAF aircraft, LCA will be the first aircraft to fly with this unique capability of hot refueling and HAL has successfully demonstrated this on LCA Tejas LSP8 aircraft.
...
Does that mean existing fighters like MiG-21/27/29, Su-30MKI, Jaguar and Mirage-2000 can’t do so?

It seems so. NLCA was the first one to demonstrate hot refueling IIRC. That time it was termed as first fighter in India to do so and I asked the exact same question you ask now.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Feb 2018 20:39

Vivek K wrote:
Vivek K wrote: Actually - "Great expectations" should be the label of the trillions in man and machine invested by successive GOIs in purchase of maintenance intensive and low up time Russian systems purchased to date - be it ships, submarines, aircraft or tanks. The modus operandi of the armed forces to combat the poor up-times has been to buy in larger numbers so that a minimum is available when needed.

[deleted]

You cannot master production of anything by producing 20-100 units. HAL, DRDO have delivered a platform that can form the backbone of IAF for years to come. Compared to the Mig-21, this is a far more capable aircraft and deserving to be bought in numbers.

MOD Note : This kind of langauge would not be tolerated. User is warned. Quoted post would also be edited to remove objectionable content. -JayS
Well that is your prerogative. It is objectionable to defend Indian pride but not a objectionable when Indian pride is crushed day in day out - this has been happening for decades now.

I suppose you can do so using civil language. When emotions run high, its better to take a couple of deep breaths before posting. Lets drop this issue now.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Feb 2018 20:44

Kudos to the Tejas team. Keep up the good job!

For folks wondering what is Hot Refueling, please see link (article) and youtube video below....

http://navyaviation.tpub.com/14003/css/ ... ng-224.htm

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Feb 2018 21:27

Tejas is indeed the first aircraft in IAF inventory which is capable of hot refueling. During MMRCA, SAAB pushed a lot to showcase hot refueling capability. But, IAF said no thank you, we haven’t set up our standard protocol for the same.

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Feb 2018 21:27

JayS wrote:
srai wrote:^^^

Does that mean existing fighters like MiG-21/27/29, Su-30MKI, Jaguar and Mirage-2000 can’t do so?
It seems so. NLCA was the first one to demonstrate hot refueling IIRC. That time it was termed as first fighter in India to do so and I asked the exact same question you ask now.

Hot refueling would be useful for CAP and tactical ground support. Something like Battle of Longewala comes to mind.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Feb 2018 21:34

Vivek K wrote:How may refuellers does the IAF have? How many are serviceable at a given time. Would such an extremely limited resource be reserved for strikers or point defence aircraft? So why does FOC have to wait for IFR?

272 MKI + 6 Midas = 278 refuellers more or less? Just sayin'....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2018 22:17

srai wrote:^^^
...
In the history of IAF aircraft, LCA will be the first aircraft to fly with this unique capability of hot refueling and HAL has successfully demonstrated this on LCA Tejas LSP8 aircraft.
...
Does that mean existing fighters like MiG-21/27/29, Su-30MKI, Jaguar and Mirage-2000 can’t do so?

Yes they don't have that. The pilot has to taxi to the fuel area, get out and the plane gets fuelled. And then pilot has to get into the plane and taxi to runway. So this hot refueling will cut down turnaround time.
Gets more sorties if needed.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 27 Feb 2018 22:39

^^
Running the checklist for shutdown and then for startup is very time consuming, but essential.

Would be v useful for quick deployment ferry (detachment) flights too, specially with mission load on pylons when range is much shorter.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Feb 2018 00:13

Cain Marko wrote:
Vivek K wrote:How may refuellers does the IAF have? How many are serviceable at a given time. Would such an extremely limited resource be reserved for strikers or point defence aircraft? So why does FOC have to wait for IFR?
272 MKI + 6 Midas = 278 refuellers more or less? Just sayin'....

So we plan to use MKIs as tankers? With buddy refuel packs, would IAF set aside a squadron of MKIs for refueling instead of striking? You cannot use a MKI that is fighting and in the middle of the fight re-task it to go refuel another a/c. So your though would take a toll on the strike force. And based on the uptimes of MKIs, the toll would be significant on available airframes.

Instead of this, it would be better to have kits available to reconfigure commercial aircraft as tankers and let strike aircraft do their job.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Feb 2018 00:21

JayS wrote: It seems so. NLCA was the first one to demonstrate hot refueling IIRC. That time it was termed as first fighter in India to do so and I asked the exact same question you ask now.

Was NLCA hot-refueled or pressure-refueled only?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Feb 2018 00:57

Haridas wrote:^^
Hot refuelling picture with engine intake covered and engine shut down. No hot air flow on tail pipe either!
Mango log key liyay chalta hai.

The LCA has auxiliary intakes on the side of the primary intake that probably can provide enough airflow at idle power. See the 2 HAL guys on the left corner of the pic with their fingers in their ears..clearly to shield their ears from the noise of the airplane's engine, which even at idle power must be very loud.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 28 Feb 2018 01:09

Rakesh wrote:Kudos to the Tejas team. Keep up the good job!

For folks wondering what is Hot Refueling, please see link (article) and youtube video below....

http://navyaviation.tpub.com/14003/css/ ... ng-224.htm

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&p=2255074#p2255074

brvarsh · Post by **brvarsh** » 28 Feb 2018 01:21

The Ravana/Jatayu battle should be an example how something that can fly and knows how to best use its potency can be so frustrating to deal with no matter how strong its opponent is, that Ravana was. LCA with such add-ons is adding a potency level that would be very very difficult to deal with in a real war even against fifth generation fighters specially when you have two or three to deal with at the same time. Great work! Its a dream to see LCA MkIV some day with prior versions operational. A Roti cooked in your kitchen tastes much sweeter than a Nan from outside.

Uttam · Post by **Uttam** » 28 Feb 2018 01:57

Kartik wrote:
Haridas wrote:^^
Hot refuelling picture with engine intake covered and engine shut down. No hot air flow on tail pipe either!
Mango log key liyay chalta hai.
The LCA has auxiliary intakes on the side of the primary intake that probably can provide enough airflow at idle power. See the 2 HAL guys on the left corner of the pic with their fingers in their ears..clearly to shield their ears from the noise of the airplane's engine, which even at idle power must be very loud.

BUT who will put the mesh on the intake when engine is still running? Wouldn't the engine have dangerous level of suction even when idling?

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 28 Feb 2018 03:10

The mesh was probably added as a safety measure just for the test since there were likely additional test equipment and personnel milling around the airplane. It probably won't be necessary when the procedure is operationalized.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Feb 2018 03:14

Don't get me wrong but why look for faults in a good news story?

HAL and IAF have accomplished hot refueling on the tarmac which is a FOC goal and this the MoD also has give press release.

Lets celebrate than find flies in ointment.

prat.patel · Post by **prat.patel** » 28 Feb 2018 03:16

Raman wrote:The mesh was probably added as a safety measure just for the test since there were likely additional test equipment and personnel milling around the airplane. It probably won't be necessary when the procedure is operationalized.

So, you reckon the mesh was put on before the engine was started in first place.
That would make sense.

But is there anyway, the experts can confirm that this indeed could be the case?

prat.patel · Post by **prat.patel** » 28 Feb 2018 03:17

ramana wrote:Don't get me wrong but why look for faults in a good news story?

HAL and IAF have accomplished hot refueling on the tarmac which is a FOC goal and this the MoD also has give press release.

Lets celebrate than find flies in ointment.

Yes; that too!

I agree whole-heartedly.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 28 Feb 2018 06:29

i think all IAF planes can do hot refueling in the air.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Feb 2018 07:04

India's Tejas inches closer to Final Operational Clearance
https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/indias- ... clearance/

India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) conducted a hot refueling trial on its indigenously designed and developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) at an airfield in Bangalore in the southern Indian state of Karnataka, according to a February 27 company statement. The hot refueling trial was followed by a short flight of the aircraft. “The system performance during the refueling session was in-line with design requirements and was satisfactory.” HAL stated.

The recent successful trial edges the Tejas LCA closer to achieving Final Operational Clearance (FOC) following a multi-year delay, according to HAL: “[W]ith this, a major requirement of LCA Air Force Mk.1A has been achieved.” The company claims that the Tejas LCA is the first IAF aircraft capable of hot refueling. “Hot refueling is a single point pressure refueling of the aircraft with the engine in operation,” HAL explains. “It is a process by which a fighter aircraft is refueled (in between sorties) while its engine is in operation, thereby cutting down the refueling time by half and turn-around time significantly. This capability is highly desired in combat situation which basically puts aside the need for the pilot to park the aircraft, power down and exit the cockpit for refueling to begin.”

The Tejas LCA is a supersonic, single-seat, single-engine multirole light fighter aircraft that has been under development since 1983 by the Aeronautical Development Agency in cooperation with HAL. The Mark-IA is an improved version of the original Mark-I featuring various upgrades including an advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system, a new electronic warfare sensor suite, and a new externally refueling capability. The Indian Air Force (IAF) issued a tender to HAL in December 2017 for the procurement of 83 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft including 73 single-engine Tejas LCA Mark-IA and 10 tandem two-seat LCA trainer aircraft. The IAF plans to induct a total of 123 Tejas Mark-IA, next to 40 Mark-I Tejas LCAs. HAL is currently increasing production capacity from eight to 16 aircraft per year, although as of this month, the company has failed to meet the target of producing eight Tejas LCA per annum.

As of December 2017, a “total 20 [Tejas LCA] IOC [initial operational configuration] aircraft (16 fighters and four trainers), five fighters have been delivered by HAL to IAF till date,” the Indian Ministry of Defense stated in a note to the Indian Parliament. “The production of remaining 15 IOC [initial operational configuration] aircraft (11 fighters + four trainers) are taken up at HAL. (…).” The production of 20 more Tejas LCA in the FOC configuration will begin following FOC clearance by India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is expected to occur in the coming months.

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 28 Feb 2018 09:01

Lungi dance time!

Govt shelves $10-b single-engine fighter jet deal, to push for Tejas

"Keeping in mind the requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF), the government has decided to push for the home-grown Tejas Mark 2, which is much cheaper than F-16 Block 70 or Gripen E, given the paucity of financial resources even as the government continues to face political heat over procuring 36 French Rafale jets off-the-shelf."
::
::
Interestingly, the Indian Air Force, which is in dire need of at least 200 fighter planes, rejected the domestically built Tejas last year. In a detailed presentation to the government, the IAF made a case of procuring the jets only from global vendors.

However, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, along with National Security Adviser Ajit Doval, have decided that either the IAF places an order for Tejas Mark 2 or open up the competition to all, much on the lines of the Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal that was floated by the previous UPA government in 2010 in a bid to buy 126 jets. Finally it was Rafale and Eurofighter that were shortlisted.

When contacted the Indian Air Force declined to comment.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Feb 2018 09:52

^^^Fantastic! Now cancel the Rafail order from the frogs and place an order for 400 Tejas Mk. II.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 28 Feb 2018 10:23

http://www.hal-india.com/Successful%20H ... as/ND__222
many cant see anything posted on twitter. this is for them for info and for records.

HAL Media Releases
27 FEB 2018 Successful Hot Refueling Trial cum Sortie of LCA-Tejas
Bengaluru, February 27, 2018:
Inching close to Final Operational Clearance (FOC), Hindustan Aeronautics Limited carried out a hot refueling on indigenous Light Combat Aircraft-Tejas followed by a sortie at HAL airport, Bengaluru yesterday. The system performance during the refueling session was in-line with design requirements and was satisfactory.

In the history of IAF aircraft, LCA will be the first aircraft to fly with this unique capability of hot refueling and HAL has successfully demonstrated this on LCA Tejas LSP8 aircraft.

Hot Refueling is a single point pressure refueling of the aircraft with the engine in operation. It is a process by which a fighter aircraft is refueled (in between sorties) while its engine is in operation, thereby cutting down the refueling time by half and turn-around time significantly. This capability is highly desired in combat situation which basically puts aside the need for the pilot to park the aircraft, power down and exit the cockpit for refueling to begin

Further, with this, a major requirement of LCA Air Force Mk.1A has been achieved.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Feb 2018 10:26

fanne wrote:i think all IAF planes can do hot refueling in the air.

That's aerial refueling. Hot refueling is on ground and part of aircraft turnaround.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Feb 2018 10:59

Good omen will be HAL announcing the third production line for 3jas.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 28 Feb 2018 11:10

Kartik wrote:
Haridas wrote:^^
Hot refuelling picture with engine intake covered and engine shut down. No hot air flow on tail pipe either!
Mango log key liyay chalta hai.
The LCA has auxiliary intakes on the side of the primary intake that probably can provide enough airflow at idle power. See the 2 HAL guys on the left corner of the pic with their fingers in their ears..clearly to shield their ears from the noise of the airplane's engine, which even at idle power must be very loud.

Putting cover on running jet intake is extremely dangerous; even if engine is idling.
Aux intake will work only if someone puts cap on intake. Who will bell the cat?

Yes time for Dhoti dance.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 28 Feb 2018 11:23

vishal wrote:Lungi dance time!

Govt shelves $10-b single-engine fighter jet deal, to push for Tejas

"Keeping in mind the requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF), the government has decided to push for the home-grown Tejas Mark 2, which is much cheaper than F-16 Block 70 or Gripen E, given the paucity of financial resources even as the government continues to face political heat over procuring 36 French Rafale jets off-the-shelf."
::
::
Interestingly, the Indian Air Force, which is in dire need of at least 200 fighter planes, rejected the domestically built Tejas last year. In a detailed presentation to the government, the IAF made a case of procuring the jets only from global vendors.

However, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, along with National Security Adviser Ajit Doval, have decided that either the IAF places an order for Tejas Mark 2 or open up the competition to all, much on the lines of the Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal that was floated by the previous UPA government in 2010 in a bid to buy 126 jets. Finally it was Rafale and Eurofighter that were shortlisted.

When contacted the Indian Air Force declined to comment.

120-150 Tejas-Mk2. Wow... wow. Someone in Govt has shown common sense to trample the import mafia in various stratas of Lootaniya New Delhi.

BK sums it nicely

Moreover, the negotiations also hit a deadlock over the issue of transfer of technology. “We need to have an India-made plane where the design is ours, the intelligence inside the aeroplane is ours while we can source some of the components globally. But importing a whole plane is regressive. We just cannot end up strengthening the foreign aerospace industry while looking down on your own,” said Bharat Karnad, Research Professor in National Security Studies, Centre for Policy Research.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Feb 2018 11:34

I also have that question. But I don’t think it is a cover. It is a screen. But how is it put on while the engine is running?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 28 Feb 2018 11:46

Next up - Hot refueling and rearming at the same time ?

There was a youtube video of an F35 with that caption.. but it seemed like they finished the hot refueling first and only then did the rearming... maybe it was due to the internal carriage ?

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 28 Feb 2018 12:10

Prem wrote:Good omen will be HAL announcing the third production line for 3jas.

No, the line needs to move faster. https://www.wired.com/2016/09/boeing-bu ... nine-days/

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 28 Feb 2018 12:37

Cain Marko wrote:
Vivek K wrote:How may refuellers does the IAF have? How many are serviceable at a given time. Would such an extremely limited resource be reserved for strikers or point defence aircraft? So why does FOC have to wait for IFR?
272 MKI + 6 Midas = 278 refuellers more or less? Just sayin'....

We need one tanker and one AWACS per squadron of fighters

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 28 Feb 2018 12:59

Sometimes need weapon re-armament too, nor just refulling.
But for Tejas endurance is more frequent need, thus all fuelling methods are good.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 28 Feb 2018 20:46

yensoy wrote:
Prem wrote:Good omen will be HAL announcing the third production line for 3jas.
No, the line needs to move faster. https://www.wired.com/2016/09/boeing-bu ... nine-days/

While it is amazing to see one 737 built every 9 days, remember how long the line has been open and the order quantities. It can be a chicken/egg situation at times but it helps that the 737 has orders confirmed for the next 10 years. That kind of commitment from customers also builds confidence for investing in the production line.