Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Feb 2018 22:23

Shameek wrote:
yensoy wrote:
No, the line needs to move faster. https://www.wired.com/2016/09/boeing-bu ... nine-days/
While it is amazing to see one 737 built every 9 days, remember how long the line has been open and the order quantities. It can be a chicken/egg situation at times but it helps that the 737 has orders confirmed for the next 10 years. That kind of commitment from customers also builds confidence for investing in the production line.

No. We want what ever is there in US without the necessary funding for supply chain, workforce, factories, pilots etc. Just rub magic lamp.

Give grand challenges and demand laser cannon.
Why can't you do that I say!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Feb 2018 22:23

Alladin and the Magic Lamp. I shall grant you three wishes. Choose carefully.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 28 Feb 2018 23:32

To quantify my earlier post, the Boeing 737 entered service in 1968. The first year order was 105 units and the second year 114 units. They have delivered more than 9800 units since then and have another 4500+ on order. Hopefully this rests any comparisons between that and Tejas production.

No more from me on this to avoid going OT.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Feb 2018 23:47

This is exactly how this bakwaas of F-Solah production in India started. BRF's import lobby stated that F-16s can be delivered quickly and folks in here lapped it up like the Gospel. All nonsense onlee.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Mar 2018 00:48

Janes - LCA demonstrates hot refueling capability

Nothing new in this article, but only posted it to show how when a Janes article is NOT written by Rahul Bedi or Rajat Pandit of TOIlet fame, there isn't the perfunctory dissing of the fighter program by mentioning how the progam started 30 years ago, is late by xyz years or whatever.

As the Tejas enters service in more numbers, expect to see more articles (not those written by lifafa journos like those two mentioned above) that talk about the jet as it is today, not how the program was conceived 30 years ago or whatever.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Mar 2018 00:50

yensoy wrote:
Prem wrote:Good omen will be HAL announcing the third production line for 3jas.
No, the line needs to move faster. https://www.wired.com/2016/09/boeing-bu ... nine-days/

Are you serious ?!! You're comparing the assembly line of military fighter program to the most popular civilian airplane program ?!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Mar 2018 00:52

Another shot of LSP-8 with the IFR probe

prat.patel · Post by **prat.patel** » 01 Mar 2018 02:26

Kartik wrote:Another shot of LSP-8 with the IFR probe

And we need to add "in love" smiley to the list of smiles for pictures just like this

It is truly a beauty!!!

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Mar 2018 03:40

Rakesh wrote:This is exactly how this bakwaas of F-Solah production in India started. BRF's import lobby stated that F-16s can be delivered quickly and folks in here lapped it up like the Gospel. All nonsense onlee.

Erh no so fast on the nonsense quip, Admiral.

Please look at Turkey and its history building the F-Solah.

1) Peace Onyx I : 126 F-16C/Ds delivered between 1987 and 1995;

2) Peace Onyx II : 40 Block 50’s during 1996 and 1997

3) Peace Onyx III : 40 more C/Ds during 1997 to 1998

TAI (Turkish Aerospace) also built 46 F-16s for Egypt during that same period.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Mar 2018 04:34

^^^^
if we had gone down the Turkish road
maybe we could have built 32 F-16s for Pakistan too while building for ourselves.

Sorry Chola for a below the belt punch but I hate the concept of F-16 mainly because it represents PAF to me.
I hope never ever an IAF pilot is forced to use it.

Fly or buy an F-16 killer.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Mar 2018 05:21

Screenshot from Tejas calendar on FB

Tejas during its Derby BVRAAM trials

love the contrast and the finish of that light grey Cobham quartz radome compared to the earlier kevlar radome.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 01 Mar 2018 06:42

Kartik wrote:
yensoy wrote:
No, the line needs to move faster. https://www.wired.com/2016/09/boeing-bu ... nine-days/
Are you serious ?!! You're comparing the assembly line of military fighter program to the most popular civilian airplane program ?!

Lessons can be derived from the 737 experience. And from other plane manufacturers and vendors too.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Mar 2018 07:19

yensoy wrote:
Prem wrote:Good omen will be HAL announcing the third production line for 3jas.
No, the line needs to move faster. https://www.wired.com/2016/09/boeing-bu ... nine-days/

One needs to remember that this is for assembly only. Almost all parts have a lead time of 1-2 years. Once all the parts arrive at the factory, the workers then assemble them together in 9 days. Also need to remember that when you have large order book, you need to invest more in production facilities to churn out aircraft once every 9 days. The 777-X line will have even more automation. 737s today have around 4000+ order backlog. For e.g, Boeing invested $28-30 billion in production facilities for their 787 widebody aircraft. They have had more than 1200 orders for it so far. Investing in advanced production facilities is not cheap. That kind of money is more than entire Indian defence budget for a year!

A proper comparison would be something like a Rafale or a Gripen production line, not a highly successful commercial airliner like 737 or 320. Its like comparing assembly line of a tank producing 50-100 per year to a Toyota Corolla production line producing tens of thousands per year!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Mar 2018 07:19

Kartik wrote:Screenshot from Tejas calendar on FB

Tejas during its Derby BVRAAM trials

https://i.imgur.com/7Ub1Qgt.jpg

love the contrast and the finish of that light grey Cobham quartz radome compared to the earlier kevlar radome.

Nice image. Looks menacing though I would've preferred no practice bomb adapter but another AAM on the outer pylon

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 01 Mar 2018 07:23

putnanja wrote:
yensoy wrote:
No, the line needs to move faster. https://www.wired.com/2016/09/boeing-bu ... nine-days/
One needs to remember that this is for assembly only. Almost all parts have a lead time of 1-2 years. Once all the parts arrive at the factory, the workers then assemble them together in 9 days. Also need to remember that when you have large order book, you need to invest more in production facilities to churn out aircraft once every 9 days. The 777-X line will have even more automation. 737s today have around 4000+ order backlog. For e.g, Boeing invested $28-30 billion in production facilities for their 787 widebody aircraft. They have had more than 1200 orders for it so far. Investing in advanced production facilities is not cheap. That kind of money is more than entire Indian defence budget for a year!

A proper comparison would be something like a Rafale or a Gripen production line, not a highly successful commercial airliner like 737 or 320. Its like comparing assembly line of a tank producing 50-100 per year to a Toyota Corolla production line producing tens of thousands per year!

No arguments here. The point is about "adding an assembly line". We don't need another assembly line, however we need the sub-assemblies to come in faster and more predictably, and for final assembly/integration/sign-off to be done quicker - for which we need excellent project management and predictable financing. With a backlog of 120 odd units, which is a production run of several years, it's pretty solid and as good as it gets (much like the backlog of the 737).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2018 07:24

shiv wrote: Nice image. Looks menacing though I would've preferred no practice bomb adapter but another AAM on the outer pylon

That is not a practice bomb adapter, but the camera pod.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Mar 2018 07:32

yensoy wrote: No, the line needs to move faster. https://www.wired.com/2016/09/boeing-bu ... nine-days/

Why?

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Mar 2018 07:39

Khalsa wrote:^^^^
if we had gone down the Turkish road
maybe we could have built 32 F-16s for Pakistan too while building for ourselves.

Yes and we can build in the kill switch!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2018 10:50

Kartik wrote:

love the contrast and the finish of that light grey Cobham quartz radome compared to the earlier kevlar radome.

I don't know what it is. But this is one of the best pictures of LCA (for me). It looks polished and menacing at the same time. Is it the fuel tank not being white? It doesn't look like a prototype anymore. I don't know.

May be I am in love.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Mar 2018 11:22

yensoy wrote:No arguments here. The point is about "adding an assembly line". We don't need another assembly line, however we need the sub-assemblies to come in faster and more predictably, and for final assembly/integration/sign-off to be done quicker - for which we need excellent project management and predictable financing. With a backlog of 120 odd units, which is a production run of several years, it's pretty solid and as good as it gets (much like the backlog of the 737).

Actually, the firm order book is for 20 Mk.1 IOC-2 and 20 Mk.1 FOC.

There is intent for another 83 but that is for Mk.1A, which needs to be developed and qualified with new AESA radar, external jamming pod and internal rearrangement. Remember the 83 order hasn’t been approved yet and is conditional on it being ready for production before greenlight is given. Nothing certain about it.

Even 20 Mk.1 FOC order is conditional upon all FOC parameters being achieved, which is still some months away.

Look if there were volume firm orders (say 300 units) for Tejas Mk.1, the Indian industries will figure it out. Lot more private industries would line up. Incentive would be there.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 Mar 2018 11:34

Will French be selling us AESA radar for LCA and may be for Jaguar upgrade ?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 01 Mar 2018 12:32

Indranil wrote: I don't know.

May be I am in love.

Indranil sir, maybe after looking at all those surgically enhanced (CFTS) big bimbos, this slim and petite beauty is naturally easy on the eyes..

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 01 Mar 2018 12:58

Indranil wrote:
Kartik wrote: love the contrast and the finish of that light grey Cobham quartz radome compared to the earlier kevlar radome.
I don't know what it is. But this is one of the best pictures of LCA (for me). It looks polished and menacing at the same time. Is it the fuel tank not being white? It doesn't look like a prototype anymore. I don't know.

May be I am in love.

How much would it cost ADA to get a few nice pictures of fully loaded Tejas?

All these faarin products get glitzy pictures in brochures and websites while we have to salivate over soft oof pictures taken during mid-day

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Mar 2018 13:11

putnanja wrote:
yensoy wrote:
No, the line needs to move faster. https://www.wired.com/2016/09/boeing-bu ... nine-days/
One needs to remember that this is for assembly only. Almost all parts have a lead time of 1-2 years. Once all the parts arrive at the factory, the workers then assemble them together in 9 days. Also need to remember that when you have large order book, you need to invest more in production facilities to churn out aircraft once every 9 days. The 777-X line will have even more automation. 737s today have around 4000+ order backlog. For e.g, Boeing invested $28-30 billion in production facilities for their 787 widebody aircraft. They have had more than 1200 orders for it so far. Investing in advanced production facilities is not cheap. That kind of money is more than entire Indian defence budget for a year!

A proper comparison would be something like a Rafale or a Gripen production line, not a highly successful commercial airliner like 737 or 320. Its like comparing assembly line of a tank producing 50-100 per year to a Toyota Corolla production line producing tens of thousands per year!

No they don't. Think about it a little more. A car MFG plant can churn out a car every 2 minutes. That's also only assembly. Does that mean a Car takes only 2 minutes for full assembly..??

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2018 13:24

Haridas ji,

Turns out those screens were designed and tested on the NLCA. They are spring loaded and attach to one side. It is easy and safe to put on and take off even when the engine is running.

Jay,

That means you were right. They must have hot refueled the NLCA, not just pressure-refueled as I had previously thought.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Mar 2018 14:22

shiv wrote:
Kartik wrote:Screenshot from Tejas calendar on FB

Tejas during its Derby BVRAAM trials

https://i.imgur.com/7Ub1Qgt.jpg

love the contrast and the finish of that light grey Cobham quartz radome compared to the earlier kevlar radome.
Nice image. Looks menacing though I would've preferred no practice bomb adapter but another AAM on the outer pylon

LOL Doctor is that you speaking ?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Mar 2018 16:01

Indranil wrote:Haridas ji,

Turns out those screens were designed and tested on the NLCA. They are spring loaded and attach to one side. It is easy and safe to put on and take off even when the engine is running.

Jay,

That means you were right. They must have hot refueled the NLCA, not just pressure-refueled as I had previously thought.

I missed on replying your post previously. I distinctly remember my surprise over NLCA being presented as first ever Indian Fighter to have hot refueling capability. I even posted on BRF asking the question that someone posted above, that didn't Su30, M2K, Mig29, Jag etc none have that ability?. It was a shocker that NLCA be the first fighter ever to have this ability.

The screen, I feel is additional precaution, the extra cautious SDRE way of doing things. They may drop it from SOP later.

PS: Here CD Balaji Sir saying NLCA is only aircraft having hot refueling capability, in 2016.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 76408.html

NachiketM · Post by **NachiketM** » 01 Mar 2018 21:56

Indranil wrote:Haridas ji,

Turns out those screens were designed and tested on the NLCA. They are spring loaded and attach to one side. It is easy and safe to put on and take off even when the engine is running.

Jay,

That means you were right. They must have hot refueled the NLCA, not just pressure-refueled as I had previously thought.

I am pretty sure that Hot refuelling is always Pressure re-fuelling ... It is actually Hot Pressure-refuelling...

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 Mar 2018 22:24

Indranil wrote:Haridas ji,

Turns out those screens were designed and tested on the NLCA. They are spring loaded and attach to one side. It is easy and safe to put on and take off even when the engine is running.

That was me, who was wondering if those meshes can be taken on and off when suction exists. Thanks for finding out.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2018 22:48

NachiketM wrote:
Indranil wrote:Haridas ji,

Turns out those screens were designed and tested on the NLCA. They are spring loaded and attach to one side. It is easy and safe to put on and take off even when the engine is running.

Jay,

That means you were right. They must have hot refueled the NLCA, not just pressure-refueled as I had previously thought.
I am pretty sure that Hot refuelling is always Pressure re-fuelling ... It is actually Hot Pressure-refuelling...

Yes, hot refueling for aerobatic airplanes has to pressure refueled. But the reverse is not true.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Mar 2018 09:26

VKumar wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:
272 MKI + 6 Midas = 278 refuellers more or less? Just sayin'....
We need one tanker and one AWACS per squadron of fighters

Not denying the need for AEW planes but I believe IAF is evolving it's strategy regarding these assets. Note how it wants to blend AEW functions with IfR, rather unique idea... Over the years they have really bought into this multirole business. I'm not sure it's the best strategy, but then I don't have the inputs, information, expertise nor the experience of these people.

Note how the Indian Navy too has its own rather unique designs. Whatever works for them. I'm actually glad that the services are continuously thinking and changing as per their perceptions of the ground reality and not simply copying what other countries do outright.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 02 Mar 2018 09:51

I think we should combine the two LCA threads.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Mar 2018 10:05

I want this thread open till FOC.
Tejas MK1A is still evolutionary development.
Tejas MK2 is quite a different thing.
We can close MRCA thread and will in a couple of months.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 02 Mar 2018 11:55

Indranil wrote:Haridas ji,
Turns out those screens were designed and tested on the NLCA. They are spring loaded and attach to one side. It is easy and safe to put on and take off even when the engine is running.

Interesting. If it is safe for a person to sneak from side, get near the intake to put the screens, then I guess there is not much risk of being sucked in anyway ! What is intended protection by the screen ?

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Mar 2018 13:08

ramana wrote:I want this thread open till FOC.
Tejas MK1A is still evolutionary development.
Tejas MK2 is quite a different thing.
We can close MRCA thread and will in a couple of months.

Still have to track production of Mk.1 until all delivered ... 2020

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Mar 2018 13:23

Haridas wrote:
Indranil wrote:Haridas ji,
Turns out those screens were designed and tested on the NLCA. They are spring loaded and attach to one side. It is easy and safe to put on and take off even when the engine is running.
Interesting. If it is safe for a person to sneak from side, get near the intake to put the screens, then I guess there is not much risk of being sucked in anyway ! What is intended protection by the screen ?

FOD possibly.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Mar 2018 15:29

Last month of the financial year 2017-2018 and only 3 Tejas .... lets hope HAL can surprise us positively !!

kit · Post by **kit** » 02 Mar 2018 16:42

IDRW reports " Speaking of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Christopher said HAL had already got an order to manufacture 123 LCAs. “In addition to that, the air force has given in writing another 201 aircraft, which is the next version, that we call as Mark-II. We are working on it and by 2022 it will be flying,” he said."

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Mar 2018 19:59

deejay wrote:
Haridas wrote: Interesting. If it is safe for a person to sneak from side, get near the intake to put the screens, then I guess there is not much risk of being sucked in anyway ! What is intended protection by the screen ?
FOD possibly.

Mostly that. Plus it is safer for the personnel once the screen has gone on.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2018 11:52

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NEWS: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has carried out a hot refueling cum sortie test using LCA-Tejas test vehicle LSP-8. With this development Tejas has become the first aircraft 'type' in Indian Air force Service to demonstrate this capability.