Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

[Dileep]

Dilip sir did allude to this in Santhanam style

Yes, heard that from the horse's mouth itself then. ADA was pushing back, saying "you wanted CCM, you got CCM (R73) and bonus (Python. in his view, the fix is a done deal) we are very bissy onlee tenkyu."

BTW, I see some movement in the logjam of stuck projects for MK2. Trickle down has started. I am not sure if my bosses still retain the interest though.

[Pratyush]

Times of India is reporting that IAF is looking to induct 324 Tejas jets.

[Venu]

That's just an artifact of whatever post processing Tarmak did.

Here's the actual pic. Click for higher resolution.
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/28701029_1692418574185917_2445434868507427669_o.jpg?oh=3b5ba285912815341f6519f4118bafad&oe=5B3BE673

Not visible in the higher resolution at all! though I have never seen that kind of an artifact in all the image editing I have done.. So I am not sure how Tarmak managed to get that kind of texture in. Its a possibility that the post processing makes the texture more visible.

Tarmak' pic is looking like that because it is a snap taken of a display monitor.

[Neshant]

how about getting Lockheed Martin or Boeing to build some of the LRUs.

they have a vast network of subcontractors in the US who can take on the task.

more expensive but it will get the job done sooner.

Saar, it would bode well for all of us and BRF, if you please at least spend few minutes before typing. Apply "reality" filter to start with.

What's not real about it?

The development of some sub-systems of China's newest passenger airliner is sub-contracted to companies in North America, for instance.
Although that is admittedly more so to gain quicker FAA approval for sale of their plane in North America.

As long as we are doing the design and they are subcontracted to do some of the manufacturing, there is no problem.
They have enormous surplus capacity among their second and third tier subcontractors.

Its the opposite that is the problem.
i.e paying big bucks to foreign countries for "transfer of technology" BS which often amounts to nothing more than Indians turning screw-drivers to assemble foreign designed products.

[Neshant]

how about getting Lockheed Martin or Boeing to build some of the LRUs.

they have a vast network of subcontractors in the US who can take on the task.

more expensive but it will get the job done sooner.

Such a move will be regressive. Big companies like LM/Boeing don't make all LRUs themselves. They get smaller companies to make them. They just integrate everything on final assembly line. This is how HAL is trying to become.

Not to mention the dependency it will create with associated pitfalls.

I'm talking about areas in which Indian companies either do not or cannot step up to the plate and produce sufficient numbers of required parts.
Ultimately all the investment in the Tejas is a waste if its taking years and years to produce it in reasonable time.

Typically the top tier companies are approached (LM, Boeing) and they oversee the quality control of the product produced by their 2nd and 3rd tier subcontractors. When their sub-contractors produce the said product, LM/Boeing only approve it when they are satisfied it meets their high standards for quality and not otherwise. This is as opposed to approaching a second/third tier subcontractor directly where their reputation/reliability is an unknown.

Anyway this is a thought. US has vast surplus capacity. Rather than Tata doing screw-driver giri to assemble F-16s, it would be a lot better if US subcontractors were producing some parts for the Tejas and AMCA as required. This again is to fill production deficiencies, not to put Indian subcontractors out of business.

[pravula]

^^^^
If we are so buddy-buddy with LM or Boeing, why stop with LRUs? Why can't they build the entire planes? After all they have a vast network of subcontractors that lets them build complete planes too.

[Bart S]

Subcontracting to Boeing and LM is fine provided they use local subcontractors or at least local production in India via JV with Indian private sector. This can be a win-win for both sides.

[JayS]

Saar, it would bode well for all of us and BRF, if you please at least spend few minutes before typing. Apply "reality" filter to start with.

What's not real about it?

The development of some sub-systems of China's newest passenger airliner is sub-contracted to companies in North America, for instance.
Although that is admittedly more so to gain quicker FAA approval for sale of their plane in North America.

As long as we are doing the design and they are subcontracted to do some of the manufacturing, there is no problem.
They have enormous surplus capacity among their second and third tier subcontractors.

Its the opposite that is the problem.
i.e paying big bucks to foreign countries for "transfer of technology" BS which often amounts to nothing more than Indians turning screw-drivers to assemble foreign designed products.

By all means, do it in civilian sector.

[Pratyush]

Why not have Indian companies develop competence for building of subsystems. I mean the development of systems would be an effort from ADE / HAL that get built by some Indian SME.

[Austin]

IAF commits to 324 Tejas fighters, provided a good Mark-II jet is delivered

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... TOIDesktop

[Neela]

Rajat bandit article.

[Khalsa]

I know right..... I am just in complete glee mode.
The thoughts of the next squadron being dusted off from the archives.
Various squadrons being asked to give up some staff to form the nucleus of the Bullets Squadron.
Reminds of the early Su30 days.

[jaysimha]

IAF commits to 324 Tejas fighters, provided a good Mark-II jet is delivered
Rajat bandit article

earlier, when ever i come across news article with such scathy header and footer comments from this paper, i use to get

but now i ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you know why,,

because, this kind of good news/progress/ of our local programs, has started bleeding from the @$$ hole of the owners of the news agency. After considerable amount of bleeding from their unmentionable oulets, TOIlet paper has been used to wipe and that and it is duly published as we can all see. lets safely assume rajat bandit is born/meant for this task. You all agree, wiping is done after bleeding has stopped. ( before it starts with next progress.)

[sudeepj]

Please don’t give Rajat Pandit viewership by posting his articles here.

By the way, I don’t know the numbers. But if development + acquisition cost of LCA is 100 million per plane, when development meant developing the entire ecosystem from designer to manufacturing to testing to certifying, then it is a damn economical plane.

600 crores, compared to 1600 crores per unit for the recent rafale deal! It will be cheaper to fly and maintain as well.

[sudeepj]

Tarmak' pic is looking like that because it is a snap taken of a display monitor.

Interesting! Usually when I take pictures of displays, they show up with a part of the screen lit and the other part dark, because that's how the displays are rendered.. One horizontal line of pixels at a time, at a very high freq (50Hz types). The camera shutter ofcourse is faster, and therefore the screen appears partially lit. The texture in that picture is the first time I am seeing that.. Also doesnt explain why the cross hatch is not seen in the blue parts of the pic.

[Kartik]

Rajat Pandit's article made me fume but then made me feel gleeful as well..it is sooo obvious that the import lobby is getting frantic now and they're making the lifafa journos put out articles with a lot of half-truths and inaccurate jibes. Expect some such articles in Vayu Aerospace soon, from the likes of Prodyut Das and Matheswaran.

the only time that F-16 or Gripen E could come into the IAF was with the SEF program. They both don't stand very strong chances in the MRCA competition, being single engined fighters and with the Tejas Mk2 having seemingly sealed the single engine fighter role in the IAF orbat, thanks to the strong backing of the new Defence Minister. the nation owes a debt of gratitude to Manohar Parrikar for resolving the deadlock between HAL and IAF with the Mk1A and to Nirmala Sitharaman for pushing aside all the import suggestions and going firmly with the indigenous option that was at the cusp of a breakthrough.

I also do believe that seeing squadron service has affected the IAF's viewpoint of the Tejas. There is no doubt in my mind that the large numbers we're now seeing the IAF project for Tejas in service, is also a result of the glowing feedback that squadron pilots, technicians and maintainers will be giving back to Air HQ.

The last few days have been simply fantastic for Tejas lovers and those who wish Indian aerospace the best. I just pray that it continues this way and we see minimal hiccups.

[Kartik]

From the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence's report, found this nugget

“Major new projects being formulated and planned to be taken up by the technology
groups in next few months are:
...
Electronics & Communication Systems (ECS): Internal RWR & Self Protection Jammer Pod for LCA Mk1A

So this is being taken up indigenously? What of the RFP that was released a while ago for an import SPJ for the Mk1A?

[ramana]

Hedging.

[thammu]

Why do all newspaper keep reporting - Tejas has lower endurance than Gripen by a factor of 2-3. Both are similar aircraft with similar engines and similar weight?

Can an Expert explain to a non-expert like me? It's all the more intriguing as Tejas went non-stop to Bahrain air show.

[Cain Marko]

Why do all newspaper keep reporting - Tejas has lower endurance than Gripen by a factor of 2-3. Both are similar aircraft with similar engines and similar weight?

Can an Expert explain to a non-expert like me? It's all the more intriguing as Tejas went non-stop to Bahrain air show.

Why? Because ..
A. They are ignorant and arrogant enough to not want to learn any better. Bad combination that... Ignorance plus arrogance.
B. They are paid... What is called lifafa journalism in the board.

[thammu]

Why do all newspaper keep reporting - Tejas has lower endurance than Gripen by a factor of 2-3. Both are similar aircraft with similar engines and similar weight?

Can an Expert explain to a non-expert like me? It's all the more intriguing as Tejas went non-stop to Bahrain air show.

Why? Because ..
A. They are ignorant and arrogant enough to not want to learn any better. Bad combination that... Ignorance plus arrogance.
B. They are paid... What is called lifafa journalism in the board.

Then please tell, endurance figures for Tejas vs. Gripen or if there is no such spec figure as 'endurance', then the range in km.

[prasannasimha]

I was reading this composite tape thing. You can see 2 Tejas aircraft upfront and close. One is in the HALmuseim and the other is in front of HAL corporate office at Minsk square. I have also seen the carbon fibre fabric first hand. They are sheets of woven fiber that are cut, processed and baked. Not filament or tape wound structures.

[Pratyush]

Why? Because ..
A. They are ignorant and arrogant enough to not want to learn any better. Bad combination that... Ignorance plus arrogance.
B. They are paid... What is called lifafa journalism in the board.

Then please tell, endurance figures for Tejas vs. Gripen or if there is no such spec figure as 'endurance', then the range in km.

An aircraft that can fly 2000 KMS on a ferry flight will have a combat radius of 600 km without refueling. So figure it out.

And compare with others.

[JayS]

Why? Because ..
A. They are ignorant and arrogant enough to not want to learn any better. Bad combination that... Ignorance plus arrogance.
B. They are paid... What is called lifafa journalism in the board.

Then please tell, endurance figures for Tejas vs. Gripen or if there is no such spec figure as 'endurance', then the range in km.

The real figures are classified for any of the jets. Published figures are to be always taken with pinch of salt, unless they are from actual fight manual (declassified). And even then one number cannot be compared with another directly unless you know what was the speed, altitude, store load out, mission profile flown (constant mach constant altitude or constant altitude variable mach, or constant mach variable altitude, or max endurance profile or max range profile or something else). There are tens of parameters that needs to be looked at to put a number in correct perspective.

So use your common sense. Just remember, two similar aircrafts should have same ballpark numbers for all performance parameters. Physics dictates so. Anything difference more than say +/-20% and you should be really suspicious about it. Marketing guys and Journalists should never be taken seriously for technical matters, as a rule of thumb (with some respectable exceptions of coarse).

[Austin]

HAL misses LCA Tejas' delivery target, mounting worries for IAF

According to a Hindustan Times report, HAL has delivered only six LCAs to the IAF, missing its target of supplying 20 aircraft by the end of the year's first quarter. "We are not getting as many jets as we would like. By now the first Tejas squadron should have inducted 20 planes...Six planes can hardly be called a squadron," the HT report quoted a person familiar with the Tejas program as saying.

[sarabpal.s]

There is a pattern now a sales pitch of foreign vendor and critical article on HAL TEJAS .. most of the writers are now either payroll of foreign vendor or help them subtly

[nvishal]

HAL is currently doing 6 per line

It says it plans to give 8 per line

In reality, due to various factors, it may eventually end up giving 5-7 on each line.

So about 10-14 each year.

IAF has committed for 324 planes. At current speed, it will take between 23-32 years for full 324 delivery. Ok this is an exaggeration but it shows that the slow production rate is a factor.

The indian govt is not taking action. I think there is some bottle-neck. I think it is the engine. Because of engine, they are not committing to mass production.

[tsarkar]

Why do all newspaper keep reporting - Tejas has lower endurance than Gripen by a factor of 2-3. Both are similar aircraft with similar engines and similar weight?

Can an Expert explain to a non-expert like me? It's all the more intriguing as Tejas went non-stop to Bahrain air show.

Its deliberate misrepresentation comparing Tejas Mk1 with Gripen E/F.

Tejas Mk1 is comparable with Gripen C/D using same GE F-404 engine while Tejas Mk2 is comparable with Gripen E/F using same GE F-414 engine. Gripen E/F has first flown a few months back and yet to complete its development cycle.

Obviously an aircraft with higher rated engine and more real estate for fuel (Gripen E/F) will be superior to an aircraft with lower rated engine and less real estate for fuel (Gripen C/D & Tejas).

Tejas didn't go nonstop to Bahrain, it made halts at Jamnagar and one more place but its endurance is what it should be in its class.

[Pratyush]

HAL is currently doing 6 per line

It says it plans to give 8 per line

In reality, due to various factors, it may eventually end up giving 5-7 on each line.

So about 10-14 each year.

IAF has committed for 324 planes. At current speed, it will take between 23-32 years for full 324 delivery. Ok this is an exaggeration but it shows that the slow production rate is a factor.

The indian govt is not taking action. I think there is some bottle-neck. I think it is the engine. Because of engine, they are not committing to mass production.

Sir, HAL can dilivever 35 to 40 planes per year. But it need suppliers to have confidence that production should be scaled up.

With this 324 order and the conditions put forth by the IAF. I will be surprised if the production goes beyond 16 planes per year.

Why?

Because, the IAF will wait for the mythical mk2. But will it allow for the continued production of mk1a in case the mk2 is delayed. We don't know.

What the IAF should do is ask for the continued production of mk1a till such time the mk2 dosent fly. And then switch to MK2.

[tsarkar]

HAL is currently doing 6 per line

It says it plans to give 8 per line

In reality, due to various factors, it may eventually end up giving 5-7 on each line.

So about 10-14 each year.

IAF has committed for 324 planes. At current speed, it will take between 23-32 years for full 324 delivery. Ok this is an exaggeration but it shows that the slow production rate is a factor.

The indian govt is not taking action. I think there is some bottle-neck. I think it is the engine. Because of engine, they are not committing to mass production.

There is no bottleneck, Tejas is presently in low rate initial production that was a phase in F-35 production as well. Unless FOC is achieved and Standard of Preparation frozen, it's meaningless to ramp up production. HAL CMD has stated the same in November 2017

http://indianexpress.com/article/busine ... g-4944113/

‘No frozen standard of preparation of LCA… that’s where delays are coming’

There are no conspiracy theories. Even M S Dhoni had a gestation period of 9 months in his mother's womb, had to complete 12 years of schooling and became as established batsman in his 20's. Tejas too has its own development cycle. Putting a 10 year old M S Dhoni in Indian Cricket Team would not have done the Indian Cricket Team any good.

[thammu]

Then please tell, endurance figures for Tejas vs. Gripen or if there is no such spec figure as 'endurance', then the range in km.

The real figures are classified for any of the jets. Published figures are to be always taken with pinch of salt, unless they are from actual fight manual (declassified). And even then one number cannot be compared with another directly unless you know what was the speed, altitude, store load out, mission profile flown (constant mach constant altitude or constant altitude variable mach, or constant mach variable altitude, or max endurance profile or max range profile or something else). There are tens of parameters that needs to be looked at to put a number in correct perspective.

So use your common sense. Just remember, two similar aircrafts should have same ballpark numbers for all performance parameters. Physics dictates so. Anything difference more than say +/-20% and you should be really suspicious about it. Marketing guys and Journalists should never be taken seriously for technical matters, as a rule of thumb (with some respectable exceptions of coarse).

Thanks.

[nam]

HAL misses LCA Tejas' delivery target, mounting worries for IAF

According to a Hindustan Times report, HAL has delivered only six LCAs to the IAF, missing its target of supplying 20 aircraft by the end of the year's first quarter. "We are not getting as many jets as we would like. By now the first Tejas squadron should have inducted 20 planes...Six planes can hardly be called a squadron," the HT report quoted a person familiar with the Tejas program as saying.

So the expectation is 20 LCA per year from year 1 itself? The planned peak production is 16 per year. "person familiar with the Tejas program" seems to have forgotten to be more familiar with LCA production runs.

[suryag]

Am waiting for results from comparitive trials in an exercise format between Tejas vs Mig21/M2K and Tejas vs Mig27/Jag hopefully with 8 planes with them they have already honed their tactics and given their pedigree(most of them coming from M2K line) i hope they have developed effective tactics to beat the M2K and the assorted lot of Russi rust buckets

[Pratyush]

That would be an eye opener for the nation. Which may just burry the import lobby for good in the country.

[fanne]

LIke t90 vs Arjun?
But we should try it

[ashishvikas]

btw, Test pilots have been openily saying Tejas in it's current Mk1 config is at least as good as M2K.

So, MK1A will be lot suprior.

[Rakesh]

HAL misses LCA Tejas' delivery target, mounting worries for IAF

Time to put an end to lifafa articles (paid for by foreign OEMs)...so here goes...

....the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has missed its delivery target of Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) for the year's first quarter, said reports.

Which delivery target was that? And which report? Oh wait, you don't have one!

According to a Hindustan Times report, HAL has delivered only six LCAs to the IAF, missing its target of supplying 20 aircraft by the end of the year's first quarter.

So now it is a Hindustan Times report. So it is Hindustan Times that manufactures Tejas aircraft. They are in charge after all of sub assemblies, LRUs, production lines! They are the authority after all. HAL is onlee doing timepass and chewing paan all day.

"We are not getting as many jets as we would like. By now the first Tejas squadron should have inducted 20 planes...Six planes can hardly be called a squadron," the HT report quoted a person familiar with the Tejas program as saying.

Who is this familar person? Fortune Teller on the road? What Bakwaas.

Sometime back, reports had emerged that the Indian Air Force (IAF) was showing interest in Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II fighter jet. The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II is a family of single-seat, single-engine, all-weather stealth multirole fighters. The fifth-generation combat aircraft is designed to perform a ground attack and air superiority missions.

Finally, the drive-by shot at the end. That train is never late!

But on March 1, Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa rubbished the reports and said that no such "request been made to the Americans."

Plausible deniability to give the article a sense of authenticity. Unfortunately we jingos on BRF know better.

[prat.patel]

Sorry for the rant - but the HT article was just so much in bad taste!!!
How people do not have even an ounce of shame! This is purely anti-national activity. I know this is lifafa journalism. But at least the a lot of them twist the truth and figures to favor their argument. This article just has blatant lies!!!!
Ridiculous!!!

Again sorry for the rant here - but had to get it out of my system so that I don't spoil my mood for the rest of my day.

[prat.patel]

Why do all newspaper keep reporting - Tejas has lower endurance than Gripen by a factor of 2-3. Both are similar aircraft with similar engines and similar weight?

Can an Expert explain to a non-expert like me? It's all the more intriguing as Tejas went non-stop to Bahrain air show.

Its deliberate misrepresentation comparing Tejas Mk1 with Gripen E/F.

Tejas Mk1 is comparable with Gripen C/D using same GE F-404 engine while Tejas Mk2 is comparable with Gripen E/F using same GE F-414 engine. Gripen E/F has first flown a few months back and yet to complete its development cycle.

Obviously an aircraft with higher rated engine and more real estate for fuel (Gripen E/F) will be superior to an aircraft with lower rated engine and less real estate for fuel (Gripen C/D & Tejas).

Tejas didn't go nonstop to Bahrain, it made halts at Jamnagar and one more place but its endurance is what it should be in its class.

Ah-Ha!!! that's the point I had completely missed when I was reading all this BS - that they are comparing Tejas Mk1 with Gripen E/F.
Although I had a very firm belief that something has been twisted here; but was not able to put a finger on it.
Thanks for the inputs saar!!

[Cain Marko]

Why? Because ..
A. They are ignorant and arrogant enough to not want to learn any better. Bad combination that... Ignorance plus arrogance.
B. They are paid... What is called lifafa journalism in the board.

Then please tell, endurance figures for Tejas vs. Gripen or if there is no such spec figure as 'endurance', then the range in km.

While the details have been hashed on br for ages, the gripen C and the mk1 both should have ferry range of about 1600-1800km, very respectable. Comparable to mirage 2000 and more than the base fulcrum, both larger birds. The gripen E is larger and similar to the latter and has very good range specs, thanks to a better engine than the mirage and a better feel fraction than the mig, which BTW, the mk2 should easily achieve.

Endurance figures will vary based on load out.