India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

[Dipanker]

Meanwhile the onslaught on H1-B visa continues, first there was a freeze on premium processing, now these anti H1-B visa posters in the BART subway system. Such inflammatory posters can potentially lead to racist attacks.

Hindus for Orange-utan coalition ought to bear some responsibility for this backlash, after all the Orange-utan won by a total of 35,000 flipped votes in 3 states.

Anti-H1B posters plastered in the heart of Silicon Valley's train network right before visa-filing season starts in US

[pravula]

Meanwhile the onslaught on H1-B visa continues, first there was a freeze on premium processing, now these anti H1-B visa posters in the BART subway system. Such inflammatory posters can potentially lead to racist attacks.

Hindus for Orange-utan coalition ought to bear some responsibility for this backlash, after all the Orange-utan won by a total of 35,000 flipped votes in 3 states.

Anti-H1B posters plastered in the heart of Silicon Valley's train network right before visa-filing season starts in US

Yearly H1B premium processing freeze started well before Trump (IIRC 2015). IMHO, they made it better this year around. Instead of blanket freeze for everyone (including extensions/transfers), they just froze new H1B apps. Can you tell me why you need 2 week decision in April when your visa is not valid before Oct? Remember, this is different from lottery pick.

[Vips]

It is unfortunate that genuine cases of H1 dependent tech workers will suffer. It is fact that majority of the H1 filings are by desi consulting companies whose owners have gamed the system and do rampant fudging and padding of resumes of non deserving candidates. It is now not even uncommon to find are basically even paying for their own H1's.

[Philip]

"Orange-utan"!

[Singha]

great post Kati .... a big game is being played in the relatively open university system...

[Kati]

great post Kati .... a big game is being played in the relatively open university system...

Thanks, Singha-Saar, that was just the tip of the iceberg ......

[Cain Marko]

Grad students from India to US universities are declining, and more paisa-wallah undergrads are filling the slots.
Shortage of "outstanding" Indian grad students, perhaps except the Computer Science/Engg, in other fields are being felt in US schools,
and the heydays of eighties and nineties are over. Those who are coming are mostly mediocre, and Bharat shouldn't mind if they leave
the country. However, One should keep an wide eye toward China which is supplying bulk of the int'al students to the US schools. Some
interesting trends are worth noticing with the chinese students. (1) It appears that the chinese govt is deliberately pushing their students
as a state policy to capture Aaaamreeka by their sheer numbers. (2) The GRE+TOEFL/IELTS have become a joke for the chinese students.
It appears that coaching centers with leaked question papers and/or fraudulant reco letters have become a billion dollar business in China,
and the US grad schools are scratching their heads and giving up on this. (A lot on this matter have been discussed in the Chrinicles of Higher
Education already. Many US schools are doing away with the GRE requirements now. It seems that the Chinese govt has a direct hand in pushing
their students into the US schools. (3) What is more interesting is that the Chinese students, both male and female ones, are now flooding all
disciplines - from psychology to biology, from sociology to computer science. (4) It is no surprise that all proprietary scientific softwares / codes /packages are finding their ways into China whereby US companies are losing billions of $$ royalties. (5) Now comes the effect of this heavy
chinese demographic weight - given any faculty vacancy in US university / college, if there are 100 applicants (which is typical in STEM areas),
50 will be chinese applicants, and may be only 10 Indians. The US schools are grudgingly employing Chinese fresh doctorates since they are the
only ones available. Till about 20 years ago the communication skills of the Chinese grad students were mostly poor. But in late nineties Chinese
government took an ambitious plan to pump about 6 billion dollars to a list of top Chinese schools, and started instructions in english medium also.
(At that time it was thought that they wanted to compete with Indian IT professionals only, but their plan was much deeper.) For that, they offered fat juicy packages to native US/UK/ Auzz/NZ faculty members for 2-5 year stints in Chinese schools. At the same time, they signed MoUs with various US universities so that Chinese students can spend 2 years in China, and another 2 years in the US (at the undergrad level). Many of these studentshave very good english communication skills, and this also feeds the graduate school enrollments. (6) Now we see the effect of heavy Chinese concentration in the US academics: - US agencies like NSF, NIH, USDA, NASA, etc are now forced to recruit the Chinese scientists (who are now GC holders / US citizens) into their administrative ranks. They are now calling shots on which researcher in which university would get how much research funding.
(7) At the same time, many Chinese scholars are now joining US drug companies, agro research companies, etc. (all high value targets). The tell-tale signs of a hidden Chinese govt is hard to miss. (Only lately, alarmed GOTUS started cracking down on industrial espionage by the chinese schietists, and record number of arrests are being made. But these are mostly for defense industries. Pretty much all agencies, all energy companies, all utility companies have been hollowed out of their intellectual properties.) (8) To hasten up the process of capturing Aaamreeka there is a new ploy - to short-cut the undergrad - grad school step, China is now sending their post-docs and/or other scholars already with doctoral degrees through their National Science Council with generous financial support. They latch on to existing chinese faculty members to undertake "joint research". Since they are not asking for financial support, and may help research publications, almost all schools don't mind their stay. However, they use the high performance computing facilities to run heavy simulations which can have dual use, including defense and space research. (9) At the same time, Chinese universities are hosting int'al conferences - from machine learning to material science, from computational math to cell biology, and inviting top non-chinese scholars from the west. These conferences are like huge vacuum cleaners. They absorb all presentations, and methodically check their useage. (10) The shrewdest of all ploys is the presence of large numbers of female chinese scholars ... some blame it for honey-trap.... Least said the better.....

Sorry,...this long post became a chinese bashing ...... By the way, if you get a chance read the book 'Tiger trap'.

Fascinating take and confirms some of my own experience...

[Prem]

http://indiandefencenews.info/india-us- ... n-comcasa/
India, US to reopen talks on Comcasa

India has agreed to reopen talks with the US on a pact that will allow high-end secured communication equipment to be installed on platforms being sold to India, signalling a willingness to revisit previously-held security apprehensions.
Highly-placed government sources told ET that a US technical team will be visiting India next month to brief New Delhi on this pact, which is called the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (Comcasa). It was earlier referred to as the Cismoa (Communication & Information on Security Memorandum of Agreement).The decision to resume conversations was taken after the joint visit of the defence secretary and foreign secretary to the US earlier this month to set up the 2+2 dialogue between the foreign and defence ministers of both countries. The meeting has now been put off until the confirmation of the new US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.
Both sides, however, agreed not to delay the technical discussions aimed at allaying Indian security apprehensions. The idea of having the same communication systems, enabling an ‘interoperable’ environment for militaries on both sides to conduct joint operations was a red flag that former defence minister AK Antony had raised. As a result, the UPA did not firm up any of the defence foundation agreements with the US, which included the Logistics Security Agreement (LSA) and the Comcasa.While LSA gave both militaries access to each other’s bases, Comcasa would allow them to be the same communication network.The NDA government signalled the first shift in 2015 when it resumed conversation on the LSA, which eventually got signed with some modifications and a new name — Lemoa (Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement).
India has faced problems in fully exploiting the potential of US-sourced platforms because of restrictions in using compatible communication equipment. For this purpose, India has had to depend on commercially available less secure systems on, otherwise, high-end platforms like C-130Js and the P8I maritime surveillance planes.The latest issue has been with obtaining the armed version of the Sea Guardian drones. Washington has made it clear that for it to part with the weapon systems on the drone, India will need to sign the Comcasa so that data and communication systems can be duly installed.Key stakeholders in the defence establishment in India have held reservations with such an arrangement, saying it’s intrusive in nature. There is concern, as per reliable sources, that the agreement will make it difficult to integrate India’s Russian-origin weapon systems on US platforms. Besides this, the agreement, which is largely operational with traditional US allies, does require granting periodic access to US personnel to inspect the equipment and ensure they remain secure.This too has been red-flagged and was among the reasons why talks on this agreement were stalled by South Block despite earlier US approaches.

[Prem]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... prWjI.html
Soon, India defence attaché at US navy Bahrain command

India will have a military attaché in the US Naval Forces Central Command (NAVCENT) in Bahrain, defence ministry officials said on condition of anonymity, highlighting what they term a “path-breaking” development that signals deeper defence cooperation between the two countries.The officials added that the Pentagon has also agreed to have an Indian military representative at the Defence Innovation Unit Experimental (DIUx), a US government unit that funds private companies working on cutting-edge defence technologies.According to the officials, the decisions were finalised during defence secretary Sanjay Mitra’s visit last week to the Pentagon, during which India and the US also decided to jointly participate in tri-service amphibious exercises off the Indian coast (including in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands) as well as increasing the scope of trilateral naval exercises with the Japanese Navy in the Indo-Pacific. The decision to include the Australian Navy to make it a quadrilateral exercise is still a work in progress.The bilateral decision to post an Indian defence attaché at the Bahrain Command has huge ramifications as NAVCENT’s area of responsibility includes the Red Sea, Gulf of Oman, Persian Gulf, and Arabian Sea. Comprising the Fifth Fleet and other forces, this Command is in charge of naval operations in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the oil-rich Gulf countries. It is also the lead player in anti-piracy and counter-terrorist operations conducted by the Combined Task Force 150 and 158.Defence ministry officials said the Indian attaché in Bahrain will ensure that the US and Indian navies are on the same page. New Delhi’s perception of the Indo-Pacific is the area from the Gulf of Aden to the west coast of America. The Indian attaché will ensure better coordination and logistic support for warships and aircraft carriers of the two countries.
The officials said that the idea of posting a representative in the DIUx is to gain first-hand experience on how the Pentagon and the private sector work together for national security. This unit identifies and invests in companies, including start-ups that fulfil US Department of Defense hardware or software requirements. The Indian representative will be able to identify solutions for the Indian military and explore which ones could work under the “Make in India” rubric.As a sign of increasing naval cooperation, the two countries are all for raising the complexity of the exercises, fostering joint training and validating standard operating procedures for amphibious operations. On December 21, the Indian Navy conducted a tri-services exercise off the coast of Kakinada in the Eastern Naval Command with landing ships from Andaman Nicobar Command participating in the manoeuvres. With South Block taking administrative steps towards integrated theatre commands, the Andamans Command will soon become the hub of Indian Navy’s might in the Indian Ocean in order to ensure that sea lanes of communications are not obstructed and freedom of navigation is unhampered by any third aggressive power.Interestingly, in US Navy’s definition, India comes under Hawaii-based Pacific Command. Delhi, for the past two decades, has pushed for a liaison with NAVCENT because the latter is responsible for the Arabian Sea.

[Rudradev]

... One should keep an wide eye toward China which is supplying bulk of the int'al students to the US schools. Some
interesting trends are worth noticing with the chinese students.
...

Absolutely. Thanks Kati ji for the very insightful writeup.

The Chinese have no diffidence about their right to expand globally, in EVERY theatre. Their targets are not limited just to Asia and Africa, but the Americas as well, and specifically the USA. The Beijing government, as well as the Chinese-American diaspora, are working diligently on a grand strategy to push in waves of immigrants who will dominate not just by weight of numbers but by nucleating a powerful faction of the influencer class in America. They're thinking generations ahead.

What are we doing?

[Rudradev]

There is no reason why this land and its riches should not belong to Dharmics of Bharatiya origin. It has belonged to enough different peoples before. It will belong in future to those with the strength, intelligence, and will to take it.

This is exactly what the British imperialists said to justify their rape of India. I reject this mentality entirely. I have no desire to be like them, regardless of how much money is at stake. By the way, as always happens, rapacity destroys any community which embraces it. All of the Anglosphere countries have tremendous social problems related to their cultures of genocide. They're so used to murder, theft, and deception as a business strategy they simply don't know how to create free, healthy, harmonious societies. As is well known, Auntystan--their mother "civilization"--is on the verge of imploding.

Obviously, there's nothing wrong with Indian-Americans wanting to be treated fairly and rewarded justly for their labor. But imitating Anglo-imperialist greed and sociopathy is not the right path to take, in my opinion.

You certainly have a right to reject this mentality from a moral standpoint of your choosing. Fair enough.

However, as a rejoinder to my post... which refers specifically to Dharmics of Bharatiya origin, i.e. Indian-Americans who specifically identify as Hindu, it is important that you clarify what exactly your moral standpoint is.

Isn't it true that you're not, in fact, Hindu? As I recall, you are an Eastern Orthodox Christian and affiliated with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Of course there's nothing wrong in your having an opinion on how Hindu Indian-Americans should comport themselves, while being an Eastern Orthodox Christian of Indian origin. But since you're specifically making a moral critique of the position I've taken (on behalf of Hindus), I think it's only fair that all readers of the discussion should know whether your critique comes from within the Dharmic tradition, or from outside it.

Without that context, your moral posture comes across as imposing your own chosen ethical framework as universally applicable to everyone else... which is unfortunate.

It is also unfortunate that your prescriptions for how Hindu Americans should think and act, sound very much like what Christians (both brown- and white-skinned) have been telling Hindus for far too long.

Keep yourselves small and your dreams smaller. Know your place. Be like "Gandhi". Don't covet what "belongs to others" today... regardless of how those "others" took possession of it in the first place, respect their "rights" to it over and above your own. Most of all: do as we say, not as we do.

I am not accusing you, personally, of being a hypocrite. I am guessing you probably did not mean it this way. However, I do have a problem with Hindus being shame-baited into belittling themselves and curtailing their ambitions by the finger-wagging admonishments of those who claim moral superiority. If this is not what you intended to convey, please feel free to clarify.

Otherwise, I can only say that Hindu Americans are better off debating the moral underpinnings of their strategy from an ethical framework that is entirely their own, i.e. Dharmic.

It is also curious that you restrict your accusations of "rapacity" to the Anglo-Americans alone. While the Anglos are certainly a terrible example to follow, how come you focus exclusively upon them? Why not the Catholics of Spanish or Portuguese heritage who were responsible for 90% of the African slave trade and genocidally destroyed advanced civilizations in the Americas, including the Aztecs and the Incas? For that matter, why not the Russians, whose expansion and colonization across Central Asia and Siberia were equally bloody, unjust, horrific, and rapacious (and carried out with the express sanction and encouragement of the Eastern Orthodox Church?)

One can throw out any portfolio of selective examples to make the case that Civilization X, Y, or Z is a bad template to follow, and stay silent on any number of others. Combining moral posturing with cherry-picked historical argumentation doesn't lead anywhere useful.

In contrast, the strategy being pursued by China to expand economically and demographically throughout every corner of the world certainly does. They don't give a fig for moralistic arguments by others about how they ought to think and behave, and so far it's been paying off for them.

Let me add my voice to others in wishing you good luck on your endeavours in India.

[Hari Seldon]

+1, RD saar.

Too many who reject Indic dharma jump to pontificate, condescend, cherry-pick and as you aptly put-it 'shame-bait' us Indics for high-crimes we're yet to commit. Blame the victim is effective only so far, perhaps. Only.

[putnanja]

Great post Rudradev. As Kati has mentioned, China is already spreading its diaspora far and wide so that it has better influence.

While the earlier expansions were through war, pillage and loot, mostly under the flag of church & islam, now its more of knowledge based expansions. If more Indians go to land of opportunities whether is US, UK, Australia, NZ, Europe etc, let them do it, and more power to them.

Look at how Chinese in Australia are already formed into a political force who impose the chinese govt view and lead protests whenever there is any perceived anti-china bias like issues related to Taiwan, Tibet, chinese HR violations etc. One can already see a successful experiment there. Expect them to replicate the same across the world!

No one is even advocating anything similar for Indians, but even encouraging Indians to go to other countries and learn is being equated to rape & pillage of britishers!

[csaurabh]

Great post Rudradev. As Kati has mentioned, China is already spreading its diaspora far and wide so that it has better influence.

While the earlier expansions were through war, pillage and loot, mostly under the flag of church & islam, now its more of knowledge based expansions. If more Indians go to land of opportunities whether is US, UK, Australia, NZ, Europe etc, let them do it, and more power to them.

Look at how Chinese in Australia are already formed into a political force who impose the chinese govt view and lead protests whenever there is any perceived anti-china bias like issues related to Taiwan, Tibet, chinese HR violations etc. One can already see a successful experiment there. Expect them to replicate the same across the world!

When Chinese go to other countries, they already have a strong sense of nationalism built up that transcends borders and official passports.
This quality is missing in Indians as we have no strong sense of identity or narrative. Thus Indians who migrate abroad are much more likely to be apolitical or even side with their host countries/companies against India or Indians. One can not really imagine Indian emigrants covertly stealing data or resources and bringing them over to India ( do we even have a mechanism for that? ) whereas China has being doing that for decades.

[UlanBatori]

There are a few people behind bars for the rest of their life for trying to do that (whether they were trying to benefit the BharatMata or themselves is open to question, but point is that it would have done BS good).

Question to ask is what is BS (Bharat-Sarkar) or RPIP (Resident Indian Pompous Patriots) doing to get those people extricated and located somewhere in India. Israel would have got them liberated (check Pollock case), so would England. Not India.

For that matter, how serious are BS and RPIP about bringing back the POWs from 1971 still languishing in Pakistani prisons? Those from 1962 in Chinese gulags, if any are still alive? Those heroes from much later times, being tortured under death sentence etc in Paki prisons? Hundreds of fishermen in Paki and SRI LANKAN (!!!!) prisons? Indian workers in Saudi and Gelf jails on all sorts of trumped-up charges? Indians in jail in Singapore and Malaysia?

Basically the reputation/assumption is that all Chinese ppl are employees (spies, thieves) of the PRC government. Do you want such a reputation for Indians who are trying to earn a living abroad?

Why is it that there is not a smidgen of recognition/gratitude in the basic Resident Pompous Indian Patriot DNA, for the hard work that has brought in all the $$$BBB?

In the 1960s and early 70s India was Famine-stan where ppl were limited to $5 of foreign exchange when leaving for phoren lands, Today it is a nation that has a thriving foreign exchange 70-inch chest - and that change is **MOSTLY** due to the people who went out and worked to death in Gelf and other godforsaken places and sent money back. All that the BS and the RPIP did was to set up scams to rip them off at Bombay Airport (Customs, taxi-drivers, bus operators to shake down passengers from one side of the airport to the other side after making them wait in the rain in the middle of the night), and everywhere else.

WTF good is a Narrative under these circumstances? The only Narrative that most Indians take with them when they go abroad is that their dear co-Bharatiyas are out to rip them off and shove them in the gutter at any opportunity and the BS Bozos are out with their corrupt arrogance to make life even more difficult for honest hardworking people.

(Sorry late at night in Mongolian steppes..)

[ShauryaT]

RD: Why crucify Gandhi in the mix? He never said keep your dreams small!! BTW: The example you cited is not some Gandhian moral. Asteya - To not covet what belongs to others, but indeed respect their rights is one of the 10 Lakshanas or values to follow in our lives. The origin of these Lakshanas are all over our literature set and forms a core of our teachings for Swa Dharma or Individual Dharma.

I think you have unnecessarily conflated the interests of Indian Americans and Indians to settle in this land for their self-benefit with morality issues. Immigration, especially Immigration from India is a net benefit to the American state. No one's doing a favor to anyone here.

Avarachan's frame of reference is certainly guided by his own faith system. But he is as much of Indian origin as any other Hindu American.

[Avarachan]

This is exactly what the British imperialists said to justify their rape of India. I reject this mentality entirely. I have no desire to be like them, regardless of how much money is at stake. By the way, as always happens, rapacity destroys any community which embraces it. All of the Anglosphere countries have tremendous social problems related to their cultures of genocide. They're so used to murder, theft, and deception as a business strategy they simply don't know how to create free, healthy, harmonious societies. As is well known, Auntystan--their mother "civilization"--is on the verge of imploding.

Obviously, there's nothing wrong with Indian-Americans wanting to be treated fairly and rewarded justly for their labor. But imitating Anglo-imperialist greed and sociopathy is not the right path to take, in my opinion.

You certainly have a right to reject this mentality from a moral standpoint of your choosing. Fair enough.

However, as a rejoinder to my post... which refers specifically to Dharmics of Bharatiya origin, i.e. Indian-Americans who specifically identify as Hindu, it is important that you clarify what exactly your moral standpoint is.

Isn't it true that you're not, in fact, Hindu? As I recall, you are an Eastern Orthodox Christian and affiliated with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Of course there's nothing wrong in your having an opinion on how Hindu Indian-Americans should comport themselves, while being an Eastern Orthodox Christian of Indian origin. But since you're specifically making a moral critique of the position I've taken (on behalf of Hindus), I think it's only fair that all readers of the discussion should know whether your critique comes from within the Dharmic tradition, or from outside it.

Without that context, your moral posture comes across as imposing your own chosen ethical framework as universally applicable to everyone else... which is unfortunate.

It is also unfortunate that your prescriptions for how Hindu Americans should think and act, sound very much like what Christians (both brown- and white-skinned) have been telling Hindus for far too long.

Keep yourselves small and your dreams smaller. Know your place. Be like "Gandhi". Don't covet what "belongs to others" today... regardless of how those "others" took possession of it in the first place, respect their "rights" to it over and above your own. Most of all: do as we say, not as we do.

I am not accusing you, personally, of being a hypocrite. I am guessing you probably did not mean it this way. However, I do have a problem with Hindus being shame-baited into belittling themselves and curtailing their ambitions by the finger-wagging admonishments of those who claim moral superiority. If this is not what you intended to convey, please feel free to clarify.

Otherwise, I can only say that Hindu Americans are better off debating the moral underpinnings of their strategy from an ethical framework that is entirely their own, i.e. Dharmic.

It is also curious that you restrict your accusations of "rapacity" to the Anglo-Americans alone. While the Anglos are certainly a terrible example to follow, how come you focus exclusively upon them? Why not the Catholics of Spanish or Portuguese heritage who were responsible for 90% of the African slave trade and genocidally destroyed advanced civilizations in the Americas, including the Aztecs and the Incas? For that matter, why not the Russians, whose expansion and colonization across Central Asia and Siberia were equally bloody, unjust, horrific, and rapacious (and carried out with the express sanction and encouragement of the Eastern Orthodox Church?)

One can throw out any portfolio of selective examples to make the case that Civilization X, Y, or Z is a bad template to follow, and stay silent on any number of others. Combining moral posturing with cherry-picked historical argumentation doesn't lead anywhere useful.

In contrast, the strategy being pursued by China to expand economically and demographically throughout every corner of the world certainly does. They don't give a fig for moralistic arguments by others about how they ought to think and behave, and so far it's been paying off for them.

Let me add my voice to others in wishing you good luck on your endeavours in India.

1) I absolutely reject the rapacity of Catholic Spain and Portugal. I didn't mention them in my comment because we were discussing Indian communities in the U.S. (an Anglosphere country). I have no sympathy for Roman Catholicism ... One of the primary goals of the Goan Inquision was to crush the Indian Orthodox Church and make it Roman Catholic. One can study the Synod of Diamper (Udayamperoor) in 1599 regarding this. The Indian Orthodox have been on the receiving end of Roman Catholic imperialism. We know Roman Catholic imperialism is nothing more than murder and theft and regard it with disgust.

2) I reject the conceptual framework of "Dharmic" vs. "Abrahamic" religions. The category of "Abrahamic religions" comes from the Islamic category, "People of the Book." This term is nonsensical Islamic propaganda. If one studies history, one does not see "Abrahamic" solidarity ... One sees unending wars between jihadists and Orthodox Christians. Look at the wars between the jihadist Turks and the Greek/Serbian/Russian/Armenian/Syriac Orthodox. Look at the terrorist bombings of Coptic Orthodox temples by the Muslim Brotherhood. Islamic propagandists can make certain claims, but when one sees a consistent pattern of aggression and deception over 1300 years, one should be skeptical of both them and their categories.

Regarding Indian history, Indian Orthodox and Hindus allied together against jihadist aggression ...
---------------------------
This is all I have time for tonight. I'll respond to the rest of your comment in a few days.

[Rudradev]

.

WTF good is a Narrative under these circumstances? The only Narrative that most Indians take with them when they go abroad is that their dear co-Bharatiyas are out to rip them off and shove them in the gutter at any opportunity and the BS Bozos are out with their corrupt arrogance to make life even more difficult for honest hardworking people.

UB ji,

Consider that the situation you describe is EXACTLY the reason why we need a better narrative.

Narratives work in strange ways... they are like a story a nation's people tell about themselves until they believe it, and then they fulfill it. "Manifest Destiny" in America is one example.

On the other hand, over 6 decades of misrule and fish-rotting-from-the-head, the narrative adhered to by Indians (abroad and at home) is what you have described in that paragraph.

So what else could we be expected to fulfill?

Here's the funny thing about the narrative that the British left Nehru Congress India with (and that we held dear for so many decades).

Facing OUTWARDS, it was self-effacing, unctuous, groveling almost. Seek the approval of the white Christian world at all costs. Shrink yourself. Know your place. Be "humble". Be a good wog and a devoted lackey. Accept what is given to you gratefully. Never dare to aspire to anything beyond your station.

Facing INWARDS it was the opposite. Your governments are all crooked. After all they were elected by your people, who are also all crooked. Crookedness and superstition and public defecation is all you are, all you do, and all you deserve. Watch your back against other backstabbing Indians, and climb over other Indians' backs the first chance you get, because it's the only way up. If you see some other Indian rising up too far, spare no effort to tear him down, because he got there by climbing on your back. Etc.

So we end up like the wretched, cuckolded, jobless, penniless, despised alcoholic who is spat upon by the whole world every day, day after day... and then goes home at night and kicks his faithful dog.

I believe things will change. If there is one thing Modi sarkar has given us, it is the hope that we can actually redefine ourselves by a narrative of our choosing rather than continue with the one we inherited. Indeed, if you look at EVERY one of the initiatives that the Congress has undertaken at Cambridge Analytica's behest, the one uniting factor amongst them is that they seek to resurrect and reinforce that old colonial narrative of India at the expense of any new one we might dare to construct. Old habits die hard, and that is what India's enemies count on above all else.

[Rudradev]

RD: Why crucify Gandhi in the mix? He never said keep your dreams small!! BTW: The example you cited is not some Gandhian moral. Asteya - To not covet what belongs to others, but indeed respect their rights is one of the 10 Lakshanas or values to follow in our lives. The origin of these Lakshanas are all over our literature set and forms a core of our teachings for Swa Dharma or Individual Dharma.

I have not crucified Gandhi at all. I refer to how the Christian West (and our erstwhile Nehruvian masters) have successfully misrepresented Gandhi, and what he stood for, in the minds of successive generations of Indians with a colonized Western education. They have weaponized this cultivated misunderstanding of Gandhi (e.g. "Freedom at Midnight", the famous Attenborough film etc.) to shame Indians about everything from the Kashmir issue to the Bangladesh war to the Pokhran tests. Hence the quotes in my post around "Gandhi".

Were the Pandavas following said Asteya Lakshana when they stood meekly by to watch Draupadi being forcibly disrobed? After all they had gambled her away, and should have "respected the rights" of Dusshasana to whom she then "belonged", no?

Let's not reduce the Lakshanas to some sort of imbecile context-insensitive commandment structure. I am sure you know better than that.

[Rudradev]

Avarachan's frame of reference is certainly guided by his own faith system. But he is as much of Indian origin as any other Hindu American.

He certainly is, and he is a more patriotic Indian than many who were born in India. I do not dispute that, but disagree with his moral critique and prescriptions for Hindu Americans. That is why I characterize his viewpoints as unfortunate, not insincere. They happen to coincide with a lot of ill-intentioned propaganda that I do not personally believe him to espouse.

[Deans]

Sharing my personal experience - Many of my relatives have settled in the US/ Canada/Australia, which are the dream destinations for many in my community and they bash India as many NRIs are do. (e.g Back in LA...... or `You people should something about poverty/pollution/population etc). As a kid, I would envy them, but not for the last 15 years or so.

I do not believe the bulk of them would have made it in India. Those like me who stayed back and succeeded despite the high competition are of more use to the country, than those who left because they would not have for e.g. got admission into the top institutes here, so got a job without `pull' as I did. In recent years their India bashing is reducing. I now get requests to pick up stuff from India for them because `things are so expensive here'. They now accept that there is nothing they can get me from `foreign' because there is more choice here, its costs less and I can afford to buy things for myself.

[bahdada]

Meanwhile the onslaught on H1-B visa continues, first there was a freeze on premium processing, now these anti H1-B visa posters in the BART subway system. Such inflammatory posters can potentially lead to racist attacks.

Hindus for Orange-utan coalition ought to bear some responsibility for this backlash, after all the Orange-utan won by a total of 35,000 flipped votes in 3 states.

Anti-H1B posters plastered in the heart of Silicon Valley's train network right before visa-filing season starts in US

Hyperventilate and throw shade however much so, it's an absolute natural reaction and long overdue.

[csaurabh]

.

WTF good is a Narrative under these circumstances? The only Narrative that most Indians take with them when they go abroad is that their dear co-Bharatiyas are out to rip them off and shove them in the gutter at any opportunity and the BS Bozos are out with their corrupt arrogance to make life even more difficult for honest hardworking people.

UB ji,

Consider that the situation you describe is EXACTLY the reason why we need a better narrative.

Narratives work in strange ways... they are like a story a nation's people tell about themselves until they believe it, and then they fulfill it. "Manifest Destiny" in America is one example.

On the other hand, over 6 decades of misrule and fish-rotting-from-the-head, the narrative adhered to by Indians (abroad and at home) is what you have described in that paragraph.

So what else could we be expected to fulfill?

Here's the funny thing about the narrative that the British left Nehru Congress India with (and that we held dear for so many decades).

Facing OUTWARDS, it was self-effacing, unctuous, groveling almost. Seek the approval of the white Christian world at all costs. Shrink yourself. Know your place. Be "humble". Be a good wog and a devoted lackey. Accept what is given to you gratefully. Never dare to aspire to anything beyond your station.

Facing INWARDS it was the opposite. Your governments are all crooked. After all they were elected by your people, who are also all crooked. Crookedness and superstition and public defecation is all you are, all you do, and all you deserve. Watch your back against other backstabbing Indians, and climb over other Indians' backs the first chance you get, because it's the only way up. If you see some other Indian rising up too far, spare no effort to tear him down, because he got there by climbing on your back. Etc.

So we end up like the wretched, cuckolded, jobless, penniless, despised alcoholic who is spat upon by the whole world every day, day after day... and then goes home at night and kicks his faithful dog.

I believe things will change. If there is one thing Modi sarkar has given us, it is the hope that we can actually redefine ourselves by a narrative of our choosing rather than continue with the one we inherited. Indeed, if you look at EVERY one of the initiatives that the Congress has undertaken at Cambridge Analytica's behest, the one uniting factor amongst them is that they seek to resurrect and reinforce that old colonial narrative of India at the expense of any new one we might dare to construct. Old habits die hard, and that is what India's enemies count on above all else.

Rudradev, +1
Without a good narrative, we are not a nation or a people, rather we just look out for ourselves and a few family members.

[Singha]

I met a friend whose wife has had a h1 visa for some time and went across to work a couple months ago (was waiting until her employer found work for her)...anyway it seems h1 is being granted for 1 yr now and in june she will need to file for extention.
so employer will need to foot the bill 6 times rather than twice - earlier it was 3 + 3.

clearly the frogs are being boiled in the pond. they are strictly going by whatever client project duration is shown in the filing now.

[Supratik]

Chinese are a bad example to follow for Hindu Americans or Hindu immigrants in other countries. All I see among Chinese is Christianization or heavy integration into the mostly white community. Not much different from what happened to the Hindus who landed in the Carribean where they still are the majority but heavily Christian and integrated into the black community except in Suriname. Just heavy migration is not a panacea for survival. Chinese are not a model community to emulate.

[Rudradev]

Surely one can exercise viveka in choosing what aspects to emulate and what to reject. Nobody said we have to duplicate the whole of Chinese history, experience, or anything else.

India did not need to have a "cultural revolution" or "great leap forward" in order to achieve rapid economic progress. These are the events that left a generation of Chinese rootless and prone to either Christianization or integration when they emigrated.

However they're turning things around on many fronts and not only forging a renewed national narrative at home, but exporting a new generation of immigrants armed with an entirely different sense of identity and national mission. They are also targeting emigration into sectors that will lead to an overall increase of influence over American society, politics, and economy.

Heavy migration in numbers may not be sufficient but it is certainly necessary. Quality and placement of immigrants also matters. It is not an either/or situation.

Another zero-sum equation that is rapidly losing relevance is the "brain-drain" paradigm. India has vast numbers of talented people and as higher education becomes better, more accessible, and more widespread we will have enough to export as well as enough who will stay home, or return home after spending some time overseas. It was in the days when we produced only a trickling handful of elites every year that we had to consider it a zero-sum game of "losing our best and brightest to the west".

[Supratik]

I am not seeing anything in the Chinese immigrating that Hindus are either not doing or need to emulate. Number gap is closing. It is now 3.5 million versus 4.9 million in US. Difference is even less in Canada and the gap narrowing in Aus/NZ. UK Indian numbers are higher. Indians/Hindus/Sikhs are moving up in politics apart from doing well in their profession and rising in different fields just like the Chinese. They either do not have a religion or dump it as soon as they enter the west. Their girls marry out heavily. Very few Chinese have visible indigenous cultural or religious content visible in the west except Chinatown. There are more converts to Hinduism, more temples, gurudwaras and more people into Yoga than into any Chinese system or institution. I see nothing in the Chinese to inspire Hindus or Indian immigrants.

[Rudradev]

Perhaps you don't see it yet because its full effects will only become manifest over time. That doesn't mean it isn't happening. Please take a look at Kati's post here: viewtopic.php?p=2261100#p2261100 which points out many aspects of what is clearly a multi-pronged strategy. If you disagree with any of the specifics in that post, it would be good to hear your views.

Yes, the Chinese strategy could still fail (and the cultural weakness that leads to deracination, assimilation etc. is the Achilles' Heel for them). I would argue that it's still better to have a long-term approach with some chance of success than none at all.

[Supratik]

I have read before what Kati has written. Even if we assume that there is a great Chinese conspiracy let us be clear the Indian govt doesn't have - neither is going to have such a strategy in future. Indian immigration is voluntary. I have already stated above why the Chinese are a bad example to follow culturally. Nothing more to add. If you go down the road of the Chinese you will end up like the Hindu community in the Carribean. In any case India is going to have more population than China by a few hundred million and will have more immigrants in future unless there are immigration caps or it is stopped.

[Rudradev]

I have read before what Kati has written. Even if we assume that there is a great Chinese conspiracy let us be clear the Indian govt doesn't have - neither is going to have such a strategy in future. Indian immigration is voluntary.

I am not sure how you can speak to what the Indian govt will or will not do in future. The notion of Indian immigration being "voluntary" is a non-sequitur. Even in China, authoritarian as it may be, the people they send out at some level want to go out. They're not being pushed out to emigrate against their will (with the exception of asylum-seekers, and that's not the issue here).

I have already stated above why the Chinese are a bad example to follow culturally. Nothing more to add.

I don't think anyone has made the case that the Chinese are a good example to follow culturally. I certainly have not.

If you go down the road of the Chinese you will end up like the Hindu community in the Carribean.

The Hindu community in the Caribbean were brought there as 100% indentured labor, one step above slaves. And they were shipped out from a society that was utterly colonized at every level. I can't really see a parallel here to what the Chinese are doing, other than that the Chinese were culturally weakened by self-inflicted events in their Maoist history (though this is being reversed). Moreover, it is by no means clear how this fate could befall modern-day Indians pursuing a strategy similar to what Kati has outlined.

In any case India is going to have more population than China by a few hundred million and will have more immigrants in future unless there are immigration caps or it is stopped.

I hope so. The point is that many Chinese immigrants, academic institutions, industry, and government appear to be coordinating their efforts to not only increase the numbers but also the influence of the Chinese diaspora in the US.

[Supratik]

So you think Indian govt may have a policy to push immigrants. I don't think so. I am not sure if you are aware of what happened in the Cariibean. About one third have converted to Christianity, one-third have married into the Afro community, one third have remained Hindu even though Indians are still the plurarility. And most of it is post-colonial. Unless the Chinese can import another 10-20 million people they face a similar fate though the circumstances may be different. I have no argument with strengthening Hinduism or Hindu-Americans in the US. My objection is to use Chinese as an example.

[Rudradev]

Theek hai boss. I still think there are things we can learn from how China and the Chinese are going about it, without becoming just like them or meeting the same fate as Indians in the Caribbean. We can agree to disagree on that.

[Rudradev]

Meanwhile the onslaught on H1-B visa continues, first there was a freeze on premium processing, now these anti H1-B visa posters in the BART subway system. Such inflammatory posters can potentially lead to racist attacks.

Hindus for Orange-utan coalition ought to bear some responsibility for this backlash, after all the Orange-utan won by a total of 35,000 flipped votes in 3 states.

Anti-H1B posters plastered in the heart of Silicon Valley's train network right before visa-filing season starts in US

Hyperventilate and throw shade however much so, it's an absolute natural reaction and long overdue.

I have a nearly 100% record of disagreeing with Dipanker ji on every issue.

However, I think people here should have a strong understanding of the group that has sponsored the anti H1-B posters on the BART subway system: Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), and its founder, John Tanton... the ones who Mr. Bahdada defends as having an "absolute natural reaction and long overdue".

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... ohn-tanton

About John Tanton

A retired Michigan ophthalmologist, Tanton has white nationalist beliefs and has written that to maintain American culture, "a European-American majority" is required. As of 2010, Tanton served on FAIR’s board of directors.

...


Tanton’s white nationalist views are fully exposed in his private papers at the Bentley Historical Library at the University of Michigan. "I've come to the point of view that for European-American society and culture to persist requires a European-American majority, and a clear one at that." Tanton wrote in a Dec. 10, 1993, letter to Garrett Hardin, a controversial ecology professor.

The papers in the Bentley Library also show that Tanton has for decades been at the heart of the white nationalist scene. He has corresponded with Holocaust deniers, former Klan lawyers and the leading white nationalist thinkers of the era. He introduced key FAIR leaders to the president of the Pioneer Fund, a white supremacist group set up to encourage "race betterment," at a 1997 meeting at a private club. He wrote a major funder to encourage her to read the work of a radical anti-Semitic professor — to "give you a new understanding of the Jewish outlook on life" — and suggested that the entire FAIR board discuss the professor's theories on the Jews. He practically worshipped a principal architect of the Immigration Act of 1924 (instituting a national origin quota system and barring Asian immigration), a rabid anti-Semite whose pro-Nazi American Coalition of Patriotic Societies was indicted for sedition in 1942.

Tanton also runs the racist publishing company, The Social Contract Press, which is part of his foundation, U.S. Inc. One special issue of the press’ journal, The Social Contract, was devoted to the theme of "Europhobia: The Hostility Toward European-Descended Americans" and featured a lead article from John Vinson, head of the Tanton-backed hate group, the American Immigration Control Foundation. Vinson argued that multiculturalism was replacing "successful Euro-American culture" with "dysfunctional Third World cultures." Tanton elaborated in his own remarks, decrying the "unwarranted hatred and fear" of whites that he blamed on "multiculturalists" and immigrants.

In 1994, The Social Contract Press republished an infamous racist novel, The Camp of the Saints, along with his wholehearted endorsement and a special afterword from its author saying "the proliferation of other races dooms our race, my race, to extinction." The novel describes "swarthy hordes" of Indian immigrants who take over France, send white women to "a whorehouse for Hindus" and engage in a grotesque orgy of men, women and children. The immigrants are described as "monsters," "grotesque little beggars from the streets of Calcutta" and worse. Unconcerned, Tanton said he was "honored" to republish what he described as an important and "prescient" text. The novel, like the race war fantasy The Turner Diaries, has become a key screed for American white supremacists.


This history has not prevented Tanton from playing a central role in the nation’s immigration debate, particularly through the many anti-immigration organizations he has founded or funded over the years. He is still active with the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), which he founded and where he was listed as a board member as recently as 2010.

FAIR, whose members have testified frequently before Congress, accepted more than $1 million from the Pioneer Fund, a racist foundation devoted to proving a connection between race and intelligence. FAIR has hired as key officials men who were also active in white supremacist groups and has others who write for anti-immigrant hate sites. Due to these activities, FAIR has been designated as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC).

FAIR is just one part of an anti-immigration network created by Tanton that has never strayed far from its roots. In fact, these groups are fundamentally linked and driven by their founder's vision that non-white immigration is a threat to white America.

The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) – which bills itself as a scholarly think tank and has been widely quoted in the media – began its life as a FAIR program and continues to produce dubious studies furthering FAIR's anti-immigration agenda. It's a vision described by Tanton in a 1985 letter in which he wrote that CIS would produce reports "for later passage to FAIR, the activist organization, to remedy."

Similarly, NumbersUSA began life as a Tanton foundation program. Its executive director, Roy Beck, was designated by Tanton as his "heir apparent" at U.S. Inc. Beck edited The Immigration Invasion, a book by Tanton and a colleague that was so fierce in its immigrant-bashing that Canadian border authorities banned it as hate literature.

So my question is: what kind of putrid, water-carrying, white-worshipping, self-abasing Gunga Din of a race traitor would defend John Tanton or FAIR's campaign as "long overdue" and "absolute natural reaction"?

[Singha]

to be charitable, perhaps he did not dig up the details like you did ?

[Philip]

India rejects a US " umbrella" commns. secrecy pact with India to maintain a distinction with its NATO allies, but has suggested cross-posting of service officers at the US's Cent. and Pacific commands.

" We do not want to be described as a NATO ally", said a "highly-placed" security official."We will seek eqpt. specific pacts", he said.

COMCASA is a renaming of CISMOA.But India does not favour an agreement covering all Indian platforms from the US that may compromise info.The US insists that singing on will allow sale of US eqpt., TOT, etc.
We prefer an " End- User Verification" agreement as in the past.New Delhi finds the CISMOA and EUMA docs relics of the " Cold War"!
India wants a "freezing a std. text" making that eqpt. country-specific.

[Sri]

Sharing my personal experience - Many of my relatives have settled in the US/ Canada/Australia, which are the dream destinations for many in my community and they bash India as many NRIs are do. (e.g Back in LA...... or `You people should something about poverty/pollution/population etc). As a kid, I would envy them, but not for the last 15 years or so.

I do not believe the bulk of them would have made it in India. Those like me who stayed back and succeeded despite the high competition are of more use to the country, than those who left because they would not have for e.g. got admission into the top institutes here, so got a job without `pull' as I did. In recent years their India bashing is reducing. I now get requests to pick up stuff from India for them because `things are so expensive here'. They now accept that there is nothing they can get me from `foreign' because there is more choice here, its costs less and I can afford to buy things for myself.

This is exactly my experience too.

[vish_mulay]

Sharing my personal experience - Many of my relatives have settled in the US/ Canada/Australia, which are the dream destinations for many in my community and they bash India as many NRIs are do. (e.g Back in LA...... or `You people should something about poverty/pollution/population etc). As a kid, I would envy them, but not for the last 15 years or so.

I do not believe the bulk of them would have made it in India. Those like me who stayed back and succeeded despite the high competition are of more use to the country, than those who left because they would not have for e.g. got admission into the top institutes here, so got a job without `pull' as I did. In recent years their India bashing is reducing. I now get requests to pick up stuff from India for them because `things are so expensive here'. They now accept that there is nothing they can get me from `foreign' because there is more choice here, its costs less and I can afford to buy things for myself.

Dean i agree with most of your post, however when i did my cost analysis for return early last year (2017 beginning), i was stumped by the cost of living for comparable life style between Sydney and Mumbai. Cost of living was as bad if not worst in Mumbai in comparison to Sydney, one of the costliest cities to live in. I was not looking for 5* residence and amenities but just regular monthly expenditure on roof, food, transport, education and utilities. Except for getting a full time nanny cheaply, Mumbai was as expensive as Sydney when i take into account the salary drop i would have faced for moving back (in real $ terms, never did PPP but i think it will more expensive). SHQ was not happy either with her options, as a certified CPA and commercial manager, she would have taken a major haircut. Overall we found out that we are better off in Sydney than moving back to Mumbai. Clean water, food and air were small incentives but loosing out on closeness to family and friends still weighs on our mind. Now we are thinking about early retirement in India in next 10-12 years. To be clear, this only applies to our situation and not general comment.
PS: I left US 10 years back and it was super cheap than Australia then. Dont know how cost of living has moved post GFC, but i think it will still be cheaper than Australia. Extrapolating it seems what we found might be true for US resident wanting to go back to India.

[Primus]

There are too many variables in this situation.

All depends on where in Sydney and where in Mumbai, or where in NY vs where in Delhi.

Here is a comparative analysis of cost of living in major metros around the world.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Mumbai

I don't agree with the figures for NYC, they are quite a bit higher - I ought to know. So cannot vouch for accuracy of other cities. But according to this, Sydney ranks 47th in the world, Mumbai 533rd and Delhi 537th out of 577 surveyed.

From my own experience over the years, human labor is still inexpensive in India compared to the West, while cost of finished Industrial goods is still somewhat higher, although that gap is closing rapidly. Eating out is much cheaper of course, although with PPP it may not be entirely so.

[kiranA]

There are too many variables in this situation.

All depends on where in Sydney and where in Mumbai, or where in NY vs where in Delhi.

Here is a comparative analysis of cost of living in major metros around the world.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Mumbai

I don't agree with the figures for NYC, they are quite a bit higher - I ought to know. So cannot vouch for accuracy of other cities. But according to this, Sydney ranks 47th in the world, Mumbai 533rd and Delhi 537th out of 577 surveyed.

From my own experience over the years, human labor is still inexpensive in India compared to the West, while cost of finished Industrial goods is still somewhat higher, although that gap is closing rapidly. Eating out is much cheaper of course, although with PPP it may not be entirely so.

The largest mandatory expenses for any family is rent, education, commuting and travel, utility and groceries. Apart from rent, in everything else west is cheaper. Top quality school education is free while very expensive in India. Excellent quality cars can be had very cheap (esp if used) in west. And if you account for traffic jams and pollution both are far higher in India , transportation is cheaper in west. Eating out is also cheaper in USA if you control for confidence in hygiene,quality of produce etc.

The only thing India offers is cheap human costs. Having a maid around or helper around when in old age can be invaluable. Also India offers for most indians a sense of community and someone you can count on for emergencies in india which may not be available to all indians in west. Another massive help in India is most upper middle class may get around legal issues whereas the book is thrown to the faces of many indians in the west.

In the end it is very complex and each individual has to decide for himself. But for a westerners in west, same quality of life is much cheaper than an indian in india.

[Mort Walker]

^^^Aside from cost there is a higher cost you may pay living outside of India. That is that no one lives forever. You may miss key life events of your family, particularly of parents and siblings. What values and culture do you wish instill in your children? At some point the west will digest your children or grandchildren. Be prepared for that as many of us will have children who marry non-Indians (many of whom may be good people) but they will not share the same ethos.