Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Mar 2018 02:28

True true Katare, but if they are replacing mig-21s for a decade or so, it ain't that bad.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Mar 2018 12:54

We should have scouted for M2K and Mig-29 and built up numbers as we have MRO and Repair/Upgrade facility and all the infra for both these types at HAl and BRD build over 1.5 decades. The Upgrades for M2K and 29 are very potent and would stay current till end of its life.

The pilots are trained , the infra is there and after decade of squadron service IAF has a good idea on the strengths of each type.

Bringing the strength of M2K and 29 in upgraded format to 5-6 squadron each wont be a bad idea , this would be a temporary gap filler for a decade till Tejas Mk2 arrives in numbers and cost effective solution compared to scouting the market for new twin engine fighter

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 31 Mar 2018 17:57

we know the Navy Mig-29k has been a disaster.
How are the IAF Mig-29s holding up in terms of maintenance and availability rates?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 31 Mar 2018 20:28

Got to hand it to the Russians. First they sell Mig 29 to the Air Force with a smoking engine and is a huge maintenance nightmare. Then they extort money from us for the Naval 29k junk and now offer to sell again to the Air Force. Hats off to the Russians, they are doing their job but a big shame to us if we again fall prey to them.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Mar 2018 20:51

These men are brainwwashed idiots I guess since we know better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKC6Wh_g2ds

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 31 Mar 2018 21:53

I guess then all the various reports (including from CAG) regarding maintenance issues ( and critical ones like landing gear on the 'brand new' 29k ) is all not true then. The Air Force personnel will not complain and will fight with any equipment you give them. But given them a choice we know what they will prefer and what they will say.

srin · Post by **srin** » 31 Mar 2018 22:04

I wonder what happened to the Malaysian Mig-29's that we wanted to buy a year ago ...

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 31 Mar 2018 22:26

... deleted

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 31 Mar 2018 22:27

Katare wrote:I shudder at prospects of adding anything with Mig name attached to it. Time to let glorious era of Migs fade away in peace and dignity. Just my thoughts, take them for whatever they are worth to you!

The pitifully depleated IAF will soon be begging to get anything that has wings (including Vampire and Ajeet from museum), so what is the shame in leasing or buying refurbished Mig29K ?

Honour goeth before fall.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 31 Mar 2018 22:46

Are those used Mig-29's or brand new made ones?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Mar 2018 23:41

A Deshmukh wrote:we know the Navy Mig-29k has been a disaster.
How are the IAF Mig-29s holding up in terms of maintenance and availability rates?

The IAF has been operating MiG-29s for 3+ decades now. So they know all about the maintenance issues. The Navy will learn as well in due time. The MiG-29K cannot be *JUST* retired. Hangar Queens they are, but the Navy will learn to work with them. Not an ideal situation, but that is the situation. Anyways, a good move if we can get the used MiG-29s for the IAF. Retire a MiG-21 squadron and I am all for it.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Apr 2018 04:01

Austin wrote:We should have scouted for M2K and Mig-29 and built up numbers as we have MRO and Repair/Upgrade facility and all the infra for both these types at HAl and BRD build over 1.5 decades. The Upgrades for M2K and 29 are very potent and would stay current till end of its life.

The pilots are trained , the infra is there and after decade of squadron service IAF has a good idea on the strengths of each type.

Bringing the strength of M2K and 29 in upgraded format to 5-6 squadron each wont be a bad idea , this would be a temporary gap filler for a decade till Tejas Mk2 arrives in numbers and cost effective solution compared to scouting the market for new twin engine fighter

+1000. This is the best way to get the numbers up expeditiously without going bankrupt buying new toys like teen or gripen, which are at best only marginally better than upgraded fulcrums or mirages.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 02 Apr 2018 22:32

Haridas wrote:
Katare wrote:I shudder at prospects of adding anything with Mig name attached to it. Time to let glorious era of Migs fade away in peace and dignity. Just my thoughts, take them for whatever they are worth to you!
The pitifully depleated IAF will soon be begging to get anything that has wings (including Vampire and Ajeet from museum), so what is the shame in leasing or buying refurbished Mig29K ?

Honour goeth before fall.

You missed the point, I don't put much weight on H&D when looking at national security issues. My point was about budget, true cost of owning and operating Mig's is prohibitly high for us now.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Apr 2018 22:40

A squadron of used MiG-29s, upgraded to MiG-29UPG standard is not a bad idea, just as long as they buy enough spares and spare engines to keep the fleet going for another 15 years at least. Cost wise, I'd expect the price to be minimal for these jets, with Russia making up its margins on the upgrade to UPG standard.

There hasn't seemingly been any noticeable movement on the Malaysian Fulcrum acquisition though.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Apr 2018 01:34

The Mig-29k's problems were more than just maintenance issues. There were problems with damage to the airframe/landing gear caused due to the shock of carrier landings. A far more difficult problem to fix than an aircraft being a maintenance hog.

But these issues do not apply to the IAF. A few extra Mig-29UPGs would be a good way to shore up numbers provided the aircraft are reasonably good condition.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 03 Apr 2018 01:55

Mig is a dying company, besides mig29k it has nothing realyy that insures it’s future survival. That could make maintaining these 29s a nightmare for IAF.

Anyhow that is my view, but i see the point of getting anothe sqadron of Mig 29 too. I can swallow it up if new money is allotted but wouldn’t want diversion of money from current or planned projects like LCA, Rafael, tankers, AWACS etc

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 03 Apr 2018 02:59

a Mig 29 upg is way better than a Mig 21 or a Mig 27. I will take any day Mig29 upg and retire a Mig 21/27.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 03 Apr 2018 03:16

Mig29K has following issues

In a 2016 report, India's national auditor CAG criticized the aircraft due to defects in engines, airframes and fly-by-wire systems
40 engines (62%) being rejected/withdrawn from service due to design defects

Source: wikipedia.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Apr 2018 03:28

Legacy MIG-2Ks bested M2Ks in classified IAF exercises every time decades ago.AM Masand in VAYU.One is sure that the 67+ 29UGs all extensively upgraded for just $900M (when compared with the 40-50 M2Ks at $2.5B!) would be almost equally victorious.The IAF could do another internal mano-a-mano evaluation.The 29s are also being built for Egypt at low cost.Extras I'm sure would be welcome to the IAF.

John · Post by **John** » 03 Apr 2018 05:52

Katare wrote:Mig is a dying company, besides mig29k it has nothing realyy that insures it’s future survival. That could make maintaining these 29s a nightmare for IAF.

Anyhow that is my view, but i see the point of getting anothe sqadron of Mig 29 too. I can swallow it up if new money is allotted but wouldn’t want diversion of money from current or planned projects like LCA, Rafael, tankers, AWACS etc

Mikoyan is just a segment and is not a company and is run together with Sukhoi. The parent company is UAC.

kit · Post by **kit** » 03 Apr 2018 06:32

Mig 29 k s seem to have a good reputation with the IN apart from some maintenance issues, though not as much as the original 29s . For the weapons they carry they almost equal the F 18s . These are almost quite different planes than the vanilla 29s .And yes, Migs are now under the Sukhoi corp

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Apr 2018 06:50

In certain aspects perhaps (and one area where it has capability is supersonic Anti Ship Missile) but the F-18E has added a lot of capability and flexibility/diversity of late which isn't really there on the MiG-29K and is not going to come in for a long time, if ever. Think AMRAAM/Aim-9X and can easily accommodate ASRAAM (classic hornets already carry it) so multiple sources for A2A missiles, AGM-88E (AARGM and soon AARGM-ER) which is a multi-mode Anti-Radiation Missile, SLAM/SLAM-ER, AGM-65E2 Maverick, Harpoon II+ (soon II+ER), JSOW (soon JSOW-ER), LRASM/JASSMER (2019), JSM (soon), SDB-I, and soon SDB-II along with the standard GBU series weapons. The F/A-18E is also going to get the ADM-160/MALD and MALD-Jammer with a special upgraded payload. Even the APKWS-II guided rocket will end up on the platform as it is already in the Classic Hornet and Harriers. Given that the F/A-18E/F's have store interface and mission systems that are UAI compatible even the French AASM is an easy option just as it is for the F-16.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 03 Apr 2018 07:39

mig 29 k is not same as or equal to IAF mig 29 UPG

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Apr 2018 12:00

fanne wrote:mig 29 k is not same as or equal to IAF mig 29 UPG

Not equal but better in most ways. The sensor suite is the same and probably the ew kit as well. Difference is that the K had a much more capable airframe and engine. More composites, more internal fuel, more thrust, more range, more hard points. Of course greater empty weight as well thanks to the naval ops requirements. The land based analogue of the K is the M, and it will be ahead of the baaz upgrade in most respects other than sensor suite.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Apr 2018 12:56

>>Mig 29 k s seem to have a good reputation with the IN apart from some maintenance issues,

planes have had spines broken and unexpected triggers one cannot talk about .... terrifying issues

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 03 Apr 2018 14:38

Philip wrote:Legacy MIG-2Ks bested M2Ks in classified IAF exercises every time decades ago.AM Masand in VAYU.One is sure that the 67+ 29UGs all extensively upgraded for just $900M (when compared with the 40-50 M2Ks at $2.5B!) would be almost equally victorious.The IAF could do another internal mano-a-mano evaluation.The 29s are also being built for Egypt at low cost.Extras I'm sure would be welcome to the IAF.

How many Mig-29s and M2Ks can be brought to fight at short notice, hain? We'll probably need to buy 4 times as many Mig-29s to have same number available to fly.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Apr 2018 15:23

Indian contract for final C-17 awarded; Jane's Defence Weekly , April,3,2018

A USD262 million award for the delivery of the last C-17 to the Indian Air Force (IAF) to roll off the now-closed production line at Long Beach, California, was announced on 30 March. The aircraft, which was built as a ‘white-tail’ (with no customer yet signed up), will join the 10 C-17s already fielded by the IAF by 22 August 2019.

This contract follows US State Department approval of the sale, which the Defense Security and Cooperation Agency (DSCA) had originally put at USD336.2 million. The additional funds will cover further ancillary equipment as well as sustainment and support.

As with all the other operators of the C-17, the IAF’s fleet is supported by Boeing via its Globemaster III Integrated Sustainment Program (GISP) performance-based logistics contract. This ‘virtual fleet’ enables international customers to tap into the US Air Force’s (USAF’s) vast support infrastructure. It is likely that a large percentage of the value of this proposed Indian sale is related to the aircraft’s through-life sustainment and support through the GISP programme.

The IAF’s C-17s are flown by 81 Squadron out of Hindon Air Force Station, near Delhi.

This final Indian aircraft is the last of 12 ‘white-tails’ that Boeing built as the line drew to a close, in the anticipation of customers being found.

In 2016, an official from the USAF Air War College in Alabama said there was “a fight going on between the Qataris, the Indians, and the Australians to get the last C-17”, which the Indians ended up winning.

Boeing built a total of 275 C-17s at its Long Beach facility from 1991 to 2015. This run spanned 222 aircraft for the USAF (one of which was lost in an accident); 11 for India (including this latest aircraft); eight for Australia; eight for Qatar; eight for the United Arab Emirates (UAE); eight for the United Kingdom; five for Canada; three for NATO and the Partnership for Peace nations; and two for Kuwait.

While it is now not possible for a future customer to procure newbuild C-17s, there is scope for acquiring one of the USAF’s aircraft as the earliest models are retired to the ‘boneyard’ at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Arizona. These could be refurbished and returned to service, but at a cost. The first C-17 to enter service with the USAF – tail number 87-0025 – was retired in 2012, although that particular aircraft ended up at the National Museum of the USAF.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Apr 2018 00:33

Philip wrote:Legacy MIG-2Ks bested M2Ks in classified IAF exercises every time decades ago.AM Masand in VAYU.One is sure that the 67+ 29UGs all extensively upgraded for just $900M (when compared with the 40-50 M2Ks at $2.5B!) would be almost equally victorious.The IAF could do another internal mano-a-mano evaluation.The 29s are also being built for Egypt at low cost.Extras I'm sure would be welcome to the IAF.

There needs to be a disclaimer here. The Mig-29's were clearly better in aerodynamic performance. There are several other areas where the M2k is better. Range, number and type of weapons carried, sensors, versatility in type of missions, not to mention availability. Mig-29's could not have done what the M2k's did in Kargil. The reverse was not true. M2k's carried out CAP and escort missions as well as strike missions.

The Mig-29 upgrade fixes some of these issues and brings the two closer in overall capability.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Apr 2018 05:08

nachiket wrote:
Philip wrote:Legacy MIG-2Ks bested M2Ks in classified IAF exercises every time decades ago.AM Masand in VAYU.One is sure that the 67+ 29UGs all extensively upgraded for just $900M (when compared with the 40-50 M2Ks at $2.5B!) would be almost equally victorious.The IAF could do another internal mano-a-mano evaluation.The 29s are also being built for Egypt at low cost.Extras I'm sure would be welcome to the IAF.
There needs to be a disclaimer here. The Mig-29's were clearly better in aerodynamic performance. There are several other areas where the M2k is better. Range, number and type of weapons carried, sensors, versatility in type of missions, not to mention availability. Mig-29's could not have done what the M2k's did in Kargil. The reverse was not true. M2k's carried out CAP and escort missions as well as strike missions.

The Mig-29 upgrade fixes some of these issues and brings the two closer in overall capability.

Sensors? How? BVR, the iaf fulcrums used the n001 with r27 iirc and wvr the hms Archer combo was rather unbeatable. Not to mention the irst that the mirage simply didn't have. Range, yes but in terms of combat endurance the m53s were guzzlers, and thanks to the rather poor twr of the m2k, the use of AB was quite often to begin with. The fulcrums ferry range was less thanks to a terrible fuel fraction, but this was compensated with better sfc.

The thing that did it in was the terrible support and maintenance issues that plagued the entire inventory as we all know.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 04 Apr 2018 05:30

We should get as many as mig29 as possible. They are cheap and upgraded one very capable. They will build the number so desperately needed. Why stop at 21, let it be 40 or 60. Refurbished, maybe $10-15 mil a piece.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 04 Apr 2018 12:55

I am all for the upgraded Mig-29s and Second hand Jags (capable of flight or otherwise).
It prevents the infanticide of AMCA and possibly Tejas Mk2, although I am more assured of the Mk2 making it to the squadron lines no matter what.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Apr 2018 13:06

Maldives snubs India again, returns gifted helicopters

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Apr 2018 13:51

Austin wrote:Maldives snubs India again, returns gifted helicopters

I can't understand this headline. The Maldives are not extending their use of one of two Dhruvs and want a Dornier instead. What has that got to do with snubbing?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 04 Apr 2018 13:54

HakeemJi do you even need to ask? Since when have facts come in the way when the motive is sensationalism and point-scoring?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Apr 2018 13:55

As someone pointed out fear sells. Good news doesn't

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 04 Apr 2018 15:35

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote:Maldives snubs India again, returns gifted helicopters
I can't understand this headline. The Maldives are not extending their use of one of two Dhruvs and want a Dornier instead. What has that got to do with snubbing?

Trying to show the present government in poor light

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Apr 2018 15:49

Kersi wrote:
shiv wrote: I can't understand this headline. The Maldives are not extending their use of one of two Dhruvs and want a Dornier instead. What has that got to do with snubbing?
Trying to show the present government in poor light

And some news channels are not reporting the Dornier request..half truth is just a lie.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Apr 2018 20:10

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DY5OxjEUMAAgLhK.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DY4ejpIV4AEuuw8.jpg

Spyder missiles and Elta 2084 radars at Halwara Air Force Station

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Apr 2018 20:53

Arnt we lic manuf EL 2084 in India ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Apr 2018 20:55

Indian Air Force to buy 100 fighter planes to fill shortage in combat aircraft

Ramana Sir , highlights for you and can decide if you want to click the link

Air Force has already told the government that it is in a hurry to induct new planes.
Air Force is moving ahead with a plan under which it will invite bids from global aircraft manufacturers.
Plan is to acquire more than 100 planes for arresting the fall in squadron strength.
Expected to be worth over Rs 1.25 lakh crore