Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 20 Apr 2018 22:29

One Question maybe a dumb one .. Does all the activity this mean that the Tejas flight envelope is completely opened and the flight laws of the aircraft are presumed to sufficiently coded complete for all aircraft operations including combat maneuvering ? Or will the tweaking process still continue in parallel?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Apr 2018 07:01

ramana wrote:The entire system looks like a hospital operating room Anesthesia system.

I have uploaded a picture of OBOGS in the DefExpo album. It was at such a place that I could not capture it very well. Nevertheless, . . . .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Apr 2018 07:35

Fcs changes are not pushed out twice daily like a website updates its code or fbook updates its engines

Probably once a year or less unless they discover fatal bugs

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Apr 2018 08:12

ramana wrote:I am glad the OBOGS is an O2 concentrator system and not a generation system as that could be fire hazard. Most likely a N2 absorption system.

The entire system looks like a hospital operating room Anesthesia system.

shiv your thoughts?

ramana I think it must be a concentrator and not a generator, though neither are used in hospital operating rooms that get piped supply from a central set of cylinders sited elsewhere.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Apr 2018 08:12

Jayram wrote:One Question maybe a dumb one .. Does all the activity this mean that the Tejas flight envelope is completely opened and the flight laws of the aircraft are presumed to sufficiently coded complete for all aircraft operations including combat maneuvering ? Or will the tweaking process still continue in parallel?

Tweaking will continue in parallel all through an aircraft's service life.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Apr 2018 08:19

Jayram wrote:One Question maybe a dumb one .. Does all the activity this mean that the Tejas flight envelope is completely opened and the flight laws of the aircraft are presumed to sufficiently coded complete for all aircraft operations including combat maneuvering ? Or will the tweaking process still continue in parallel?

In my opinion, mostly. The extreme boundaries of the envelope would be opened up at FOC. Further tweaking would be done if a new weapon or stores configuration is added or capabilities like automatic takeoff or landing are added.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Apr 2018 18:49

sankum wrote:Thanks Kakarat,
Link to the article
http://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/4220205605.pdf

Gold mine of info on updates, AESA integration is already underway

which one is this ? the UTTAM ?

naird · Post by **naird** » 21 Apr 2018 20:28

Gurus ,
Whats with the 60 flights per month for FOC ? Is that the pre-defined sortie rate for IAF ? It seems very intense - 3-4 sorties per day. I wonder if thats the benchmark for other fighters in the IAF stable

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Apr 2018 20:40

FWIW https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 4453324800

@zone5aviation
Following Following @zone5aviation
More Angad Singh Retweeted LCA TEJAS

My information from #GaganShakti2018 suggests some missed nuance. 5 Tejas were serviceable out of 8 present at Phalodi. Of these, 4 a/c were tasked, therefore 100% *mission availability* per task requirement. But 65% serviceability of deployed aircraft.

Also, Tejas Mk.1 IOC was only involved in the western phase of #GaganShakti2018

So ability to sustain high tempo ops as demoed for the rest of the fleet this year still unknown. Early days yet for the type. No sense in falling prey to hype.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 21 Apr 2018 20:52

One question

Wont OBOGS be a liability in case airbases are attacked with WMD? Or are there filters for that?

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 22 Apr 2018 00:26

shiv wrote:
ramana wrote:I am glad the OBOGS is an O2 concentrator system and not a generation system as that could be fire hazard. Most likely a N2 absorption system.

The entire system looks like a hospital operating room Anesthesia system.

shiv your thoughts?

ramana I think it must be a concentrator and not a generator, though neither are used in hospital operating rooms that get piped supply from a central set of cylinders sited elsewhere.

Not necessarily true
We can get commercial based central medical gas O2 supply using oxygen concentrators and one particular hospital in Bangalore did indeed have it in the past
Basically the one problem with any oxygen concetrator system is the unique possibility of administrating a hypoxic mixture in a closed system if there is some issue with the oxygen concentrator.
We do not use oxygen generatos in medical gas supply units. Basically you can get piped gas with either a cylinder bank system typically 2 sets of cylinder banks that can switch automatically , a trailer bank and a liquid oxygen capsule where demand is high. For eg in our hospital we will have a LOX capsule, also a cylinder bank for standby. Even with all that we will keep an emergency single unit cylinder in every PR. Medical gas delivery system is highly regulated and standardized. OBOGS system will ahveto comly to that when human rated. One of the reasons for issues as I reiterate is the possibility of hypoxic mixture delivery during a failure of the concentrator system especially in closed loop systems. Indeed this happened in the F22 system and was a subject of intesne investigation. Typically medical grade O2 is commercially made using the Linde process and either made into LOX or stored as pressurized gas in cylinders.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Apr 2018 08:46

symontk wrote:One question

Wont OBOGS be a liability in case airbases are attacked with WMD? Or are there filters for that?

Not a problem.

Prasanna sir,

I don't know about medical oxygen, bur what you say about OBOGs is in general true. To my great surprise, my officemate was actually part of the testing team of this system. He was describing some of the test conditions, and it is mostly about generating the right amount of oxygen based on the combat maneuver being performed. It is quite a precise and well tested system.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Apr 2018 11:41

symontk wrote:One question

Wont OBOGS be a liability in case airbases are attacked with WMD? Or are there filters for that?

why would it be a liability?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Apr 2018 11:45

I heard that one Tejas in the recent exercise took 23 seconds to take off rather than 21. I hope this is not a worrying thing given that 21 or less should be the norm according to my late cousin with whom I spoke a few days ago. Also why did they use only 4 out of 5 Tejas. This is very worrying to me. I hope they are not hiding something. I am getting really really anxious. Will ask my late cousin about this.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Apr 2018 12:31

shiv wrote:I heard that one Tejas in the recent exercise took 23 seconds to take off rather than 21. I hope this is not a worrying thing given that 21 or less should be the norm according to my late cousin with whom I spoke a few days ago. Also why did they use only 4 out of 5 Tejas. This is very worrying to me. I hope they are not hiding something. I am getting really really anxious. Will ask my late cousin about this.

Shiv, you can't stop people from acting all sky is falling. On the most miniscule of topics. Over time I have learnt to keep myself sled aloof from such posts.

So please leave them be. If they haven't learnt from being on brf they are not going to learn at all form your scrcastic humor.

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Apr 2018 12:34

according to my late cousin with whom I spoke a few days ago.

WtH man !

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 22 Apr 2018 16:00

symontk wrote:One question

Wont OBOGS be a liability in case airbases are attacked with WMD? Or are there filters for that?

Seriously man. Your air bases have been attacked with WMDs and the one thing you are fretting over is the Performance of OBOGS. Am I right

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Apr 2018 16:20

darshhan wrote:
symontk wrote:One question

Wont OBOGS be a liability in case airbases are attacked with WMD? Or are there filters for that?
Seriously man. Your air bases have been attacked with WMDs and the one thing you are fretting over is the Performance of OBOGS. Am I right

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 23 Apr 2018 00:27

darshhan wrote:
symontk wrote:One question

Wont OBOGS be a liability in case airbases are attacked with WMD? Or are there filters for that?
Seriously man. Your air bases have been attacked with WMDs and the one thing you are fretting over is the Performance of OBOGS. Am I right

No, I think he is asking if OBOGS is NBC capable.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 23 Apr 2018 00:47

shiv wrote:I heard that one Tejas in the recent exercise took 23 seconds to take off rather than 21. I hope this is not a worrying thing given that 21 or less should be the norm according to my late cousin with whom I spoke a few days ago. Also why did they use only 4 out of 5 Tejas. This is very worrying to me. I hope they are not hiding something. I am getting really really anxious. Will ask my late cousin about this.

If I understand correctly, there is only one photo 'journalist' spread the canard of not all LCA's being serviceable during "GS'18".

Now per chaiwala, the same has been banned across the board by IAF for shamelessly peddling foreign stuff and spreading malicious lies about desi product to the effect.

Believe what you want to.....

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Apr 2018 01:40

pravula wrote:
darshhan wrote:
Seriously man. Your air bases have been attacked with WMDs and the one thing you are fretting over is the Performance of OBOGS. Am I right
No, I think he is asking if OBOGS is NBC capable.

Yes, the ceramic membranes used in OBOGS systems are inherently fine enough.

But, please think about it. The pilot is one man who is required to fly the plane. There is team behind him required to complete the operations. OBOGS is not your worry when the airbase has been compromised in this way!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 23 Apr 2018 10:47

Picklu wrote:
shiv wrote:I heard that one Tejas in the recent exercise took 23 seconds to take off rather than 21. I hope this is not a worrying thing given that 21 or less should be the norm according to my late cousin with whom I spoke a few days ago. Also why did they use only 4 out of 5 Tejas. This is very worrying to me. I hope they are not hiding something. I am getting really really anxious. Will ask my late cousin about this.
If I understand correctly, there is only one photo 'journalist' spread the canard of not all LCA's being serviceable during "GS'18".

Now per chaiwala, the same has been banned across the board by IAF for shamelessly peddling foreign stuff and spreading malicious lies about desi product to the effect.

Believe what you want to.....

If I understand who you are referring to, it won't be the first time for him, doing this. Last time in the Gripen vs LCA debate as well, he exposed his agenda.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Apr 2018 10:57

Picklu, initials AS? Wont be surprised one bit.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 23 Apr 2018 11:14

Jayram wrote:One Question maybe a dumb one .. Does all the activity this mean that the Tejas flight envelope is completely opened and the flight laws of the aircraft are presumed to sufficiently coded complete for all aircraft operations including combat maneuvering ?

Thanks all who were kind enough to respond. Here is the answer from the man him self
Dr Girish Deodhare Dir- ADA from the recent Defexpo article linked above

Could you share the latest developments on the LCA Tejas
programme?
We expect to get the Final Operational Clearance
(FOC) for the Mk 1 by June-July 2018. Most of the tasks for the FOC
are in the final stage and the rest will be completed soon. Some of
the tasks under focus are the completion of integration of all FOC
weapons including flight envelope expansion with the Derby BVR
missiles. The software fine tuning for complete carefree manoeuvring
is also in progress.

In other words the heavy lifting in this area is complete which is a major milestone in and of by itself. Of course with continuous optimization for various configuration to follow the life of the plane.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Apr 2018 19:39

Titbit from the latest VAYU.
9 Tejas would've been delivered by March 2018 from the two prod. centres, but " there will be considerable delay in the next batch ( of 20) including 4 two-seat operational trainers as their production drawings have reportedly not been frozen" !

Frankly what is going on? The programme is approaching 4 decades in a few years time and if we can't deliver a two-seat trainer because "drawings aren't frozen", what confidence will be there in the IAF for the MK-2 deliveries not to mention dreams about AMCA!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Apr 2018 21:35

Philip wrote:Titbit from the latest VAYU.
" there will be considerable delay in the next batch ( of 20) including 4 two-seat operational trainers as their production drawings have reportedly not been frozen" !

Frankly what is going on?

Biased misreporting. First they said, HAL can't produce on time. Now, the spin is that production cannot be continued. The rot is deep.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 24 Apr 2018 00:02

Philip wrote:Titbit from the latest VAYU.
9 Tejas would've been delivered by March 2018 from the two prod. centres, but " there will be considerable delay in the next batch ( of 20) including 4 two-seat operational trainers as their production drawings have reportedly not been frozen" !

Perfect!! So IAF wants to repeat the Arjun saga

It is ok to import a fighter then ordering Tejas with good sortie rate and safety record. I guess, someone will come with Tejas is too safe to fly and pilots will get lazy.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 24 Apr 2018 00:58

Whine thread please..one adverse comment and people start Pinaka fire

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 24 Apr 2018 01:05

Karan M wrote:Picklu, initials AS? Wont be surprised one bit.

Yup

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 24 Apr 2018 01:06

Indranil wrote:
Philip wrote:Titbit from the latest VAYU.
" there will be considerable delay in the next batch ( of 20) including 4 two-seat operational trainers as their production drawings have reportedly not been frozen" !

Frankly what is going on?
Biased misreporting. First they said, HAL can't produce on time. Now, the spin is that production cannot be continued. The rot is deep.

Well, may be, just may be, the plane is fine, the magazine editor is not .....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Apr 2018 01:53

I think now that Ex GS is over we should be back to tracking FOC and production flow from Tejas lines A & B.

When is the first plane from the Line B the full second Tejas line to be out? And what is its SP #?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Apr 2018 02:35

RKumar wrote:
Philip wrote:Titbit from the latest VAYU.
9 Tejas would've been delivered by March 2018 from the two prod. centres, but " there will be considerable delay in the next batch ( of 20) including 4 two-seat operational trainers as their production drawings have reportedly not been frozen" !
Perfect!! So IAF wants to repeat the Arjun saga

It is ok to import a fighter then ordering Tejas with good sortie rate and safety record. I guess, someone will come with Tejas is too safe to fly and pilots will get lazy.

We should differentiate between an egg-spurt saying something in a magazine and IAF saying something. IAF has been very supportive of Tejas of late. The IAF chief coming out personally to clarify that HAL quickly fixed the snags and the planes were back to fighting fit within 12 hours is a very very welcome. He did not have to do it.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 24 Apr 2018 15:13

If FOC is happening second half of 2018, with structural changes from IOC like IFR plumbing, it is but natural production drawings will require time to be made. Pray, how come it becomes anyone's fault, whether ADA, HAL or IAF?

Can a 15 year old child overnight take up a corporate job?

Can members show some basic common sense before blaming ADA, HAL or IAF?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 24 Apr 2018 15:21

RKumar wrote:Perfect!! So IAF wants to repeat the Arjun saga It is ok to import a fighter then ordering Tejas with good sortie rate and safety record. I guess, someone will come with Tejas is too safe to fly and pilots will get lazy.

Can you explain what you wrote? Can you make any sense of what you wrote?

There are 324 orders - more than Su-30 or Jaguar or any aircraft since MiG-21.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Apr 2018 15:28

constructing and delivering a fighter is a long lead item esp when large volume orders were not paid for earlier. nobody keeps around the parts in ready use state in the bin, waiting for clients.

otherwise we could have cut a cheque and taken delivery of all our 36 rafales by now, rather than years from now. there is a diff between this and assembling using prepared OEM drawings and parts and CKD units which HAL has done for jaguar, mig27, hawk and su30. here we are on our own and everything in our hands, without similar exp in the past after marut.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 24 Apr 2018 16:49

tsarkar wrote:Can you explain what you wrote? Can you make any sense of what you wrote?

There are 324 orders - more than Su-30 or Jaguar or any aircraft since MiG-21.

I thought it is a simple one-liner filled with sarcasm.

Sir, there are only 20+20 planes are on order. LoI for 83 MK1a and commitment for 201 MK2.

On a serious note, if 20 IOC are order is completed within this financial year and FOC drawing are not frozen. How is HAL going to produce any FOC standard aircraft in 2019-2020 as it will require lead time to plan and handover drawings before ordering etc?

Will it not make sense to order another 20 IOC standard planes instead of keeping the line ideal?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 24 Apr 2018 16:54

^^ Even if final drawings are not frozen, there are prefinal and good for construction drawings drawings that are usually 99% of what is likely to be approved.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 24 Apr 2018 17:40

Also with FOC for the MK-1 round the corner, the final drawings for FOC standard aircraft will be well in place by the time production of those 20 units commences.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/987602651008372736

btw, when should we expect SP10 ? any whisper ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Apr 2018 18:21

--- deleted by admin on account of zero SNR---

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 24 Apr 2018 18:47

Philip wrote:I am only quoting Vayu which said that there would be extra "delays" for the next batch of 20 becos the 4 twin-seat trainers haven't had their production drgs. finalised. Gents,you can spin it whichever way you want,but the word that hits you in the stomach time and time again with desi production is "delays",and this for a programme that everyone knows is more than a decade late (APJAK promised us in 2003,"200 LCAs flying by 2013"}

And just to remind folks,the 6th sqd. of JF-17s has been formed in Pak and deliveries of the same will be made to Burma.Malaysia is also contemplating acquiring the same as a low-cost addition to its fleet.

Philip, as an when there are 200 LCAs flying, we can count on you to still remind us that APJAK promised them by 2013.

But, I wonder if you ever used this 'delays' danda for imported products sourced from your favourite source, especially when they've been deliberated delayed as a negotiating tactic.