Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Philip
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

I asked an admiral ( part of the then inspection team) many years ago as to why we bought the Gorky instead of the Varyag.Three reasons.
One, too large at that time for any yard in India.Would need going back to Russia (UKR was then part of the USSR, becoming independent)for repairs, etc.
Two,it's hull was not in good shape.
Three, a far more expensive proposition to repair her and equip her with aircraft than the Gorky.
Thus it was not possible at that time to acquire the Varyag.A former CNS confirmed the same.
What both sides did not realise that post USSR, the state of the vessel had deteriorated esp. the wiring- had to be entirely replaced, plus there were no proper construction drawings left of the vessel, etc. etc.Major design modifications to convert a cruiser- carrier into a regular flat top required a monumental effort.Plus at that time, no Western assistance was available, no second- hand carriers of any worth compared to the Gorky and we were desperate to prevent our carrier aviation skills from disappearing.Who knew at that time what the Chins were planning. However, way back, two decades ago I foresaw this and kept warning of it.But as they say," a prophet is with honour except in his own country" !

What we have today however is a virtual brand new carrier, with some constraints compared with other more conventional designs.It is serving us well, a powerful vessel even though we've had hiccups with maintaining the 29Ks which in time will be resolved.

If you remember well, two decades ago we had far less money than now and the IN had to exist on crumbs thrown at it from the defence budget's table.
The Chinese took almost a decade to study it, repair it and modernise it.They are a dictatorship filled with cash whose leaders have as their goal by 2050 to surpass or equal the US as the world's leading military power.
They realised that global domination meant dominating the oceans.So their navy was given top priority over the other two services with huge increased funding and a massive effort to modernise its shipbuilding capability both for naval and merchant vessels.

To achieve their goal of global hegemony meant power projection into the oceans ,first in stages to dominate the " 3 island chains " that constrain it in the Pacific and a breakout into the IOR for permanent deployment on water and establish a land route through Pak to the Arabian Sea and access to the oil wealth of the Gulf.This is now their OBOR gambit.As mentioned above, 20 yrs. ago I predicted PLAN naval assets would be in the IOR on a permanent basis.I was laughed at! CNS Adm.Lanba has just warned us about the Chin presence and ambitions.Regrettably, our myopic mandarins in Lutyens Bagh are better at pen-pushing than pushing policies and achieving results.

With such single- minded leadership,clear vision and strategy laid out, concentration of effort, funding allotted, they are relentlessly achieving their stated aims.Let's face it.We cannot compete with China given the size of our economy.Therefore we need a different approach, using our gift of geography primarily.The Indian subcontinent as said umpteen times penetrates into the heart of the IOR
like a dagger. On both flanks we have large island territories. From these " unsinkable " assets, using a combination of land based aircraft esp. maritime strike aircraft like supersonic Backfires armed with missiles like BMos, Nirbhay and BMos-H in the future, we can dominate and control the entire IOR .True that China is trying to ring us using our neighbour's territory, but s concerted effort using both diplomacy backed up with the stick can restore the situ.We've lost a great opportunity to set the Maldives right, timidity in South Block.Had Rajiv been around ,the Maldivian depot would've been either in jail or in Davy Jones' locker! He was very pro-active on maritime matters realising the importance of India dominating the IOR and was willing to use force both in the Maldives and bin SL. Not for nothing did Time mag. carry on its cover a pic of a G class FFG predicting India becoming a great power.

We clearly don't have the moolah for Chin type carriers today, but they will be eminently sinkable and our land based aircraft if as advocated are acquired, along with around 3 med.sized carriers ,more affordable and easier to build, will be able to sort out Chin CBGs.It is their huge undersea fleet that worries me given the state of our sub fleet.More on the subject later.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

This... Cheap and effective
The Indian subcontinent as said umpteen times penetrates into the heart of the IOR
like a dagger. On both flanks we have large island territories. From these " unsinkable " assets, using a combination of land based aircraft esp. maritime strike aircraft like supersonic Backfires armed with missiles like BMos, Nirbhay and BMos-H in the future, we can dominate and control the entire IOR
Or

Upgrade the mki, at least a couple of sqds, in such a way that its range really increases. Perhaps with cfts and efts along with newer pakfa engines. That would be a beast and probably more easy on serviceability. More like a su34mki in some ways.

Or

Make the next mki purchase a su34mki, this bird already has a range of 3500km+ on internal fuel. And can carry 3x3000 ltr efts increasing range to 4500km. A load out with 1xbmos and perhaps 2xkh 31 and 2 x eft will allow it have a combat radius to cover immediate area of concern in the ior.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chola »

Philip wrote:I asked an admiral ( part of the then inspection team) many years ago as to why we bought the Gorky instead of the Varyag.
With Rakesh, everyone at BR knows at least one admiral, Filipov!
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

He's Admiral of the Fleet!

Did you read an earlier post about Ru tactics to destroy US CBGs? A Backfire can carry sev. more BMos , Kalibir or Ru's newest missiles than a Flanker derivative.Launching them well out of range of the carrier's aircraft, massed shoes can be launched.If 12 missiles are launched, it will be very difficult put for a carrier to survive such an attack.
Backfires with their range can also be used to carry part of our strat. deterrent if need be.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by John »

Philip wrote:He's Admiral of the Fleet!

Did you read an earlier post about Ru tactics to destroy US CBGs? A Backfire can carry sev. more BMos , Kalibir or Ru's newest missiles than a Flanker derivative.Launching them well out of range of the carrier's aircraft, massed shoes can be launched.If 12 missiles are launched, it will be very difficult put for a carrier to survive such an attack.
Backfires with their range can also be used to carry part of our strat. deterrent if need be.
Please stick to topic and stop peddling cold war Era relics like Tu-22m3.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

Please see what these " Cold War relics" are doing in Syria! Keep abreast of current mil. actions.
The US too is still using its B-52s.Armed with LRCMs, they carry a deadly arsenal.RU
u Backfires and Blackjacks are being upgraded and Blackjacks production resuming.Dozens of Backfires are in mothballs.There were 300 at the end of the CW.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by srin »

^^ The biggest problem for IAF with Russian equipment is after-sales support, esp the spares. Given this, Backfires and Blackjacks will just be hangar queens in a few years time.

That said, I too believe there is a role for bombers. And I think we should convert a civilian/transport aircraft to a bomber. A330 MRTT anyone ? Just standardize on one platform and start building it locally. Make bombers, maritime patrol, awacs, refueller and just plain military transport using that. There will be good supply chain for the spares.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Singha »

unless we can build our own bomber and engine, its pointless to invest much in lets say a A320 conversion even though we operate 100s and soon 1000s because all the IP and control is with the airframe OEM and engine OEM.

we can at best get a token number of new build Tu160mk2 and call it a day.

medium sized long range domestic UCAV the size of F-111/Avro vulcan is perhaps more suitable long term as these long range "missile truck" missions are unremarkable transits to and from the drop point, where LR missiles are unleashed. UCAVs can easily fly through 100s of waypoints and satcom link can provide the real time picture to ground command of threats and needs to reroute. weapons release can be handled from ground.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

Any bird will come with its support/spares baggage.The answer is to draft a deal that takes care of the issue with strict penalties.If at all a Ru system is obtained , or for that matter from any other OEM in the future, then such clauses will kick in when problems are faced.The issue of supporting weapon systems from the east is being increasingly resolved if you keep track of the number of entities being set up in India for that purpose by the OEM and a desi partner.For example of Western systems, the R co. is the support entity for Dassault in some cases.

The acquisition of such a strat. bomber is required to deal with any PLAN CBGs or task forces attempting to ingress into the IOR or already here using its bases in Pak just as the US and UK use Bahrein as a permanent base. Massed saturation missile attacks are required which would not be possible by BMos capable MKIs capable of carrying only 1 missile.The recent operations by Chinese strat. bombers in the ICS using one of its stolen atolls which has been turned into a floating fortress, shows China's plan to extend its own maritime strike reach using its own bombers.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by jaysimha »

INTEGRATED HEADQUARTERS OF MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (NAVY)
DIRECTORATE OF INDIGENISATION (DOI)
INVITATION FOR EXPRESSION OF INTEREST (EOI)
INDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT OF 'UPPER AIR SOUNDING SYSTEM

http://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/Eo ... 7.5.18.pdf
EoI - Upper Air Sounding System (UASS)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chola »

Sigh. With Reliance and Pipavav becoming NPA (Non-Performing Asset) a few weeks ago, the NOPV is now in question. Basically, we have no 1500-2000 ton corvette in our immediate future if the Pipavav yard is not sorted out. So no surprise that the IN has to look at Russia for this class.

The corvette is supposed to be the workhorse of the littoral so it can free the frigates and destroyers for blue-water service. For a point of comparison, the chinis had built about 40 of their 1500-ton Type 056 since 2012 with more coming. The advent of this type allowed them to use their Type 054A FFGs and Type 052C/D DDGs for the IOR.

It would be a damned shame if we end up with Russian Gepards. Shipbuilding even more than aircraft manufacturing is a zero-sum game. There is only a small finite number of warships a nation can afford over long stretches of time. Every one that goes to a foreign shipyard is one that was taken away from the local MIC.

The corvette is a small backbone class that really must be
domestically. But if the Navy has nothing it can count on locally then it has no choice but to go abroad. This is a horrible f—ing situation.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Pratyush »


I recall the navy being interested in a Brahmos shooters that would be in the same displacement ballpark.

I always assumed that it was to be a domestic design.

Not sure if gepard will be amenable to conversion to Brahmos shooters.

PS the Kora class is also due for replacement. Is p 28 the designated replacement for the ship.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Kakarat »

Russian team on a 3-day visit to HEC
A high-level team from Russia, JSC “Rosoboronexport”, Baltic Shipyard, VINT and United Shipbuilding Corporation is on a three-day visit to HEC regarding co-operation in the field of propeller Shafts.

The Government of India has presently approved manufacturing of various warships. Mazagon Dock Ltd. has taken a lead for manufacturing presently approved Warship projects and have identified HEC as the potential source for various mechanisms like propeller shafts, rudder stock, stern gear system etc. Avijit Ghosh, Chairman-cum-Managing Director, HEC has shown keen interest and is taking all efforts to tap the business potential.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 6268655616 --> An Indian Navy Mig-29K from INAS 303 "Black Panthers" with a cat on guard. Don't know what the cat is thinking, but it is obviously looking sarcastic and dangerous at the same time.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 7471567872 ---> Two Indian navy Shishumar Class diesel electric attack submarines and a Sindhughosh Class submarine as seen from a HENSOLDT OMS 110 Digital Periscope of INS Shankul (Shishumar Class).

HENSOLDT OMS 110 Digital Periscope ---> https://www.hensoldt.net/solutions/sea/ ... s/oms-110/

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9951098882 --> INS Trishul launching a Type 53 torpedo (53-65) from its DTA-53 torpedo tube.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 6268655616 --> An Indian Navy Mig-29K from INAS 303 "Black Panthers" with a cat on guard. Don't know what the cat is thinking, but it is obviously looking sarcastic and dangerous at the same time.
Just hangin out, yo!
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Singha »

can the government buy out such NPA shipyards by compensating the PSU banks paper losses, paying off private banks and nationalizing them under the MDL/HSL umbrella

I know its not the ideal choice vs a efficient pvt sector, but we cannot let such investment and manpower just melt away
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Yagnasri »

Singha wrote:can the government buy out such NPA shipyards by compensating the PSU banks paper losses, paying off private banks and nationalizing them under the MDL/HSL umbrella
There is nothing in the law that prevents it. If it makes economic sense it can do it. It can be brought under IBC during NCLT proceedings or by directly negotiating with the owners and the lenders.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Pratyush »

Singha wrote:can the government buy out such NPA shipyards by compensating the PSU banks paper losses, paying off private banks and nationalizing them under the MDL/HSL umbrella

I know its not the ideal choice vs a efficient pvt sector, but we cannot let such investment and manpower just melt away
It can be a part of the NPA resolution process itself. As was the case with Bhushan steel.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Singha »

With no cat-a-pult, russians compensated by gifting this elite siberian cat.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

Been saying this for some time, the need for a new corvette/ light frigate around 2000t. This class could be based in forward deployment at the ANC,Gujarat at the Porbandar base and at Cochin.In the future at the planned new naval base at Madras and possible base at Tuticorin.

Armament to be multi-role using lighter weapon systems.
ASW helo/hangar,an MBU, TT, lightweight main gun, gatlings/ BPDMS,SSMs and SR SAMs.The Gepard appears to have most of the capabilities, but forward requires an MBU ahead of the main gun as in the Tartastan,plus a VLS SAM system aft of the gun, perhaps an upgraded Barak-1 type, plus either 30mm gatlings or 2 Palma systems with a helo deck, hangar and VDS/ TAS at the stern.SSMs amidships which could be either Klub/Kalibir derivatives-even Nirbhay until BMos-NG the smaller version arrives.
There was a v.interesting Ru corvette concept where the helo hangar is below deck through a lift with the TAS and space for UUVs too.With increased automation the number of crew could perhaps be brought down a little more.

A modified Gepard class light FFG which would be good replacements for the Khukri/Koras .About 12 to 16 would be a more affordable class than the expensive P-28s and even costlier Talwars and P-17As.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

https://www.google.co.in/search?q=drawi ... 4EtwrkURjM:

This site has drawing of the Gepard light FFG,with variants too.The plan shows an MBU forward of the main gun with a BPDMS mount behind.This could be replaced with Barak type anti-missile SAMs in VLS modules.The SSMs could be amidships as shown in another pic between the funnel and mast.TTs on each beam and 2 gatlings or LW Palma BPDMS on either side of the hangar which can accommodate a Kamov ASW helo.A TAS/VDS below the flight deck at the stern.This would give the vessel great multi-role combat capability esp. in ASW and anti-ship roles.

If any such deal is being contemplated,we could acquire a small batch from the builder/yard,with the bulk of numbers built in an Indian yard,preferably a pvt. one like L&T.

Scroll down and see a v.interesting tri-maran concept with an assortment of missiles in VLS modules.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chetak »

twitter

Awesome #map shows the connectedness of the oceans. A beautifully piece of original work from the German magazine “mare”. Source: https://buff.ly/2GQc0gO

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by kit »

Would it be useful to have a small shipyard building exotic tech intensive craft in small batches ? ..kind of DARPA for the navy
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chetak »

they will seek to blame India for everything because of their own scurrilous behavior which they know smacks of being extremely ungrateful.

The remarks of the IN chief made in India is no business of theirs.

There is also the small matter of India's vote that they are expecting for their chance at a rotational membership of the UNSC.

I sincerely hope that they do not get it.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by John »

Not new I believe we been interested in Steregushchiy class for a while but Russian been hesitant/asking two much for it. In exchange they offered others including Gepard which is slightly smaller but an older design. Since then they have launched even newer designs based on Steregushchiy.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chola »

kit wrote:Would it be useful to have a small shipyard building exotic tech intensive craft in small batches ? ..kind of DARPA for the navy
Yes. The MCMVs are a perfect example. We are scrambling to find a phoren yard for these small specialized hulls (after the South Koreans decided our billions weren’t enough reward to worth the hassle of our process.)

But you need money and a well-crafted plan that would keep that yard working. But planning was never our strong suit so thr babus rather go spending billions on other people’s MIC to deliver immediate one-time solutions.

The 1500-2000 ton corvette, though, should be a mass produced backbone project for our standard state and private shipyards to expand our shipbuilding industry and keep our skilled workforce engaged. It should not be a phoren ship like the Gepard IMHO.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chola »

Pratyush wrote:

I recall the navy being interested in a Brahmos shooters that would be in the same displacement ballpark.

I always assumed that it was to be a domestic design.

Not sure if gepard will be amenable to conversion to Brahmos shooters.

PS the Kora class is also due for replacement. Is p 28 the designated replacement for the ship.
Not sure about the Brahmos “shooter.” But a corvette of the Gepard’s size is a general purpose littoral vessel that should be simple and cheap enough to build in numbers. It should provide some ASW capability as well.

The P 28 is really a FFG at 3500 tons and $1billion per ship. At that crazy price, it isn’t a viable corvette option.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by John »

^ Where are you getting the 1 billion figure from? Even Kiltan with redesign for composite mast cost only 1700 crores not even 1/3rd of how much you quoted.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chola »

^^^

https://infogalactic.com/info/Kamorta-class_corvette
Cost: ₹28 billion (US$416 million)-₹70 billion (US$1 billion)
http://wap.business-standard.com/articl ... 011_1.html
The navy’s top designer, Rear Admiral M K Badhwar, says the navy is determined to nurture an Indian supplier base, to develop increasingly high-tech products for warships. He points out, “Initially, they (the private companies) had real problems in meeting the sophistication levels that we were demanding. But we insisted and now most of them have done so. This is vital for an indigenous shipbuilding industry.”
All this has taken the cost of Project 28 from a sanctioned Rs 2,800 crore (Rs 700 crore per corvette), to an estimated Rs 7,000 crore now. This is approximately in line with cost increases for previous Indian-built warships.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by John »

It says right in link it is for complete project all 4 vessels. Price went from 700 to 1750 crores per vessel ( it is actually incorrect Kiltan is only one that cost 1700 due to redesign).
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chola »

John you are right and I confused the total cost of the P28 program for all four corvettes instead of one at $1B. Yeah, I might be even more confused and pessimistic by the cost inflation over the years and took the $1B figure in a lot of the wiki sites at face value.

Okay taking the 1700 crore figures, then the Gepard at $100M and even the Steregushchiy at a reported $130M are still less than half as expensive.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

When you have a perfected design of a type in service and exported to Vietnam too, the basic design can be tweaked with Indian eqpt. and weapon systems like Nirbhay.A good design to mass produce and operate on all seaboard.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Kakarat »

Philip wrote:When you have a perfected design of a type in service and exported to Vietnam too, the basic design can be tweaked with Indian eqpt. and weapon systems like Nirbhay.A good design to mass produce and operate on all seaboard.
Exactly that's why the Navy should consider a corvette design based on the Saryu-class OPV of GSL which is a so called perfected design and has also been exported to Srilanka. GSL had a ASM armed version on display at DefExpo18
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chola »

Kakarat wrote:
Philip wrote:When you have a perfected design of a type in service and exported to Vietnam too, the basic design can be tweaked with Indian eqpt. and weapon systems like Nirbhay.A good design to mass produce and operate on all seaboard.
Exactly that's why the Navy should consider a corvette design based on the Saryu-class OPV of GSL which is a so called perfected design and has also been exported to Srilanka. GSL had a ASM armed version on display at DefExpo18

The Saryu was superceded by the NOPV which brings us full circle back to Pipavav and Reliance becoming NPA.

Maybe instead of making just 6 Saryu’s we should be making more.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Kakarat »

IN commissions first indigenously built floating dock

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The Indian Navy (IN) has commissioned its first indigenously designed and built floating dock to repair and service its major platforms.

Referred to as Floating Dock Navy-2 ( FDN-2 ), the 185 m-long and 40 m-wide platform was inducted into the service on 25 May in a ceremony held at Port Blair, the capital of India’s Andaman and Nicobar Islands and headquarters of the IN-headed tri-service command.

The platform is equipped with “state-of-art automated systems with all modern facilities to ensure quality and swift repairs of warships”, said the IN in a 27 May statement.

FDN-2 , which is now the second floating dock in service with the IN, has the capability to lift ships and submarines of up to 8,000 tons displacement, which includes almost the entire range of the IN’s combat assets.

“The floating dock is designed for berthing alongside a jetty, or moored in calm waters, enabling planned and emergency docking operations for ships,” stated the IN, adding that FDN-2 will be based alongside FDN-1 at Port Blair and is expected to “substantially enhance” the repair and refit facility for IN warships deployed in the archipelago.

FDN-2 was launched in June 2017 at the Larsen & Toubro (L&T) shipyard at Kattupalli near Chennai. It has high-capacity ballast pumps along with an advanced automated ballast control system, and is provided with a hauling-in system to handle a ship's docking and undocking operations, according to L&T.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Kakarat »

Induction of Floating Dock Navy-2 - Indian Navy

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More Photos in the Link
The indigenously designed and constructed FDN-2 (Floating Dock Navy) was inducted into the Indian Navy on 25 May 2018 at Port Blair by Hon'ble Lieutenant Governor, Andaman & Nicobar Admiral DK Joshi, PVSM, AVSM, YSM, VSM, NM (Retd). The induction ceremony was conducted as per naval traditions and was witnessed by senior officers from the Army, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard. The FDN-2 is equipped with state of art automated systems with all modern facilities to ensure quality and swift repairs of warships. The dock has the capability to lift ships up to 8000 tonnes including frigates and destroyers of the Indian Navy. The floating dock is designed for berthing alongside a jetty, or moored in calm waters enabling planned and emergency docking operations for ships. Induction of FDN-2 will substantially enhance the repair and refit facility for the naval warships based in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.
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