Small Arms Thread

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 21 Jun 2018 12:02

Manish just loook at the video again.
Alao please look at a vanilla FNFAL upper and lower receiver and the butt.
Then you will know what i am talking about in terms of creative thinking.
We spent 10 years on the INSAS.

All thesee questions around recoil. Accuracy, range etc are tradeoffs.

I like the DSA approach to the FN.
A good weapon reinvented.

It may be a.little noisier but 7.62s are going to be that.
It will have a bigger recoil but relative to what?

Ok here is something for you. Look at the cocking handle on Ofb Insas and look at front plastics and tell me the risks but also of the ergonomics.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 21 Jun 2018 12:41

Tradeoffs - exactly that, sir.

Look at the cocking handle on Ofb Insas

Ah, i think i now have a better understanding of your POV.. and you haven't even touched on the internals and metallurgy

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jun 2018 19:41

Picklu wrote:From OFB chaiwala:
a. The factories have to live with decade old equipment from lowest bidders and how they are still operating is a miracle.
b. Every sort of outsourcing deal has to go to the lowest bidder who operates coolie gang to manually produce the shoddiest output
The problem is systematic and blaming parasite union is meaning less.

Given the strategic situation of India, OFB is essential. Truely it. along with the PSU docks, are the bottomline of Indian security; the fancy items are mere toplines.

For a better India, it should be reformed in the similar lines of Nava Ratna rather than blind privatisation. But just like RAW, there are deeper cycle within cycle that prevents GOI from doing so.

blaming L1 process for lack of quality in outsourcing is a cop out. tender RFP's can always be written in a way so as to ensure a minimum standard. many government organisations routinely do so. that OFB is unable to do so says more about them than about the vendors. if they are unable to create a tender with minimum QC it shows their lack of commitment or competence.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Jun 2018 10:01

Manish_P wrote:Tradeoffs - exactly that, sir.

Look at the cocking handle on Ofb Insas
Ah, i think i now have a better understanding of your POV.. and you haven't even touched on the internals and metallurgy

Manish,
The folding know on the charging handle (cocking handle) itself is borrowed from the FNFAL (inch pattern). however then could have moved it to the upper receiver area .this would have freed up the entire front area (in front of the receiver assembly) for rails but also made the plastics body fit better.
But the charging handle where it is now means that it is less ergonomic, in my view. if it started closer to the upper receiver then the left hand of a right handed shooter has to extend less (hence a fraction quicker) - but that is just my view.

Why cannot the front picatinny rail be a part of the gas tube?

Also look at the magazine well - could it be extended out a bit to act as a guide?

JMT...I am not a small arms expert by any means.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 22 Jun 2018 11:10

OK. Got the BRF thread on INSAS - viewtopic.php?f=10&t=101

And i can see your year 2003 posts

There have been detailed discussions on other forums as well.

Here is one such example (External link from Indians For Guns forum) - The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

(Hey, i think i can even spot Hakeem sahab there)

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 22 Jun 2018 11:25

Rahul M wrote:blaming L1 process for lack of quality in outsourcing is a cop out. tender RFP's can always be written in a way so as to ensure a minimum standard. many government organisations routinely do so. that OFB is unable to do so says more about them than about the vendors. if they are unable to create a tender with minimum QC it shows their lack of commitment or competence.

+1

Also shows a complete disregard for the possible consequences because they know there will be none.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 Jun 2018 14:15

Rahul M wrote:
Picklu wrote:From OFB chaiwala:
a. The factories have to live with decade old equipment from lowest bidders and how they are still operating is a miracle.
b. Every sort of outsourcing deal has to go to the lowest bidder who operates coolie gang to manually produce the shoddiest output
The problem is systematic and blaming parasite union is meaning less.

Given the strategic situation of India, OFB is essential. Truely it. along with the PSU docks, are the bottomline of Indian security; the fancy items are mere toplines.

For a better India, it should be reformed in the similar lines of Nava Ratna rather than blind privatisation. But just like RAW, there are deeper cycle within cycle that prevents GOI from doing so.
blaming L1 process for lack of quality in outsourcing is a cop out. tender RFP's can always be written in a way so as to ensure a minimum standard. many government organisations routinely do so. that OFB is unable to do so says more about them than about the vendors. if they are unable to create a tender with minimum QC it shows their lack of commitment or competence.

L1 is no longer a constraint in Govt procurement policy. One can have a combination of T1 + L1 in a ration of 50:50 or 70:30 or even 100% T1.

Overtime is the biggest problem with OFB.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Jun 2018 16:59

The whole JVPC with its non standard caliber shows what is also wrong with our set up.
Why in this day and age of foldable butt assault rifles do we need a personal defence weapon!!!!

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Jun 2018 17:11

^^ Sachin ji, look at the history of Fn P90 and HK MP7 and you will get the philosophy behind non standard caliber of JVPC. The origins of 5.56x30 requirements date from around the same timeline as NATO trials for 9x19 replacement.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Jun 2018 17:25

Katare wrote:Where and when did OFB say that?

Both it’s gun failed trials.

Insaan mk1c cleared trials.

R2 has not failed.

Army wants to buy rifles in 3 phases
1. Outright purchase on emergency.
2. Open competition (in which OFB can also partake)
3. Employment generation for OFB where they get a percentage of orders.

Let me be greatly pessimistic and proclaim that all 3, in my opinion are bound to fail.
Bribery allegations in first, GQSR in second and poor quality in third shall be the banes.

Take away INSAS IP from OFB, give it to private firms for production with updated mil specs, and you will get good rifles for less than ₹30k. Khan chacha did this for m4/m16 and Fn is the largest supplier now.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Jun 2018 18:55

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Sachin ji, look at the history of Fn P90 and HK MP7 and you will get the philosophy behind non standard caliber of JVPC. The origins of 5.56x30 requirements date from around the same timeline as NATO trials for 9x19 replacement.

Thakur sir,

Do we need a JVPC is my question?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Jun 2018 19:01

Yes.

Tank crew.
Logistics crew.
Helicopter pilots.
SWAT teams.
General purpose sentry weapon.
Standard issue to police patrols instead of rifles.
Body Guard weapon.

Easy production run of >100K.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Jun 2018 19:48

Thakur_B wrote:Yes.

Tank crew.
Logistics crew.
Helicopter pilots.
SWAT teams.
General purpose sentry weapon.
Standard issue to police patrols instead of rifles.
Body Guard weapon.

Easy production run of >100K.

JVPC weight 3 plus kg so not much lighter that good assault rifle. Secondly the logisticis of the caliber add needless complication to the supply chain.
I would have much rather they went with a compact 5.56x45 and sacrifised a bit of accuracy...Apart from SWAT teams,which requireses accuracy, which of your list is going to get into a firefight like reg li e infantry. If they are to get into a firefight they will run out of ammo?
JMT Thakur_b because every army officer worth his or her salt talks of the supply chain!!!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jun 2018 00:03

JVPC is quite heavy, I was suprised by that. I expected a much lighter weight from a PDW. handling the OFB AK knock-off it reminded me of the pleasant memories of doing the same with the original. no wonder the users love it still, the equipment is such a breeze to handle.

tsarkar wrote:
Rahul M wrote: blaming L1 process for lack of quality in outsourcing is a cop out. tender RFP's can always be written in a way so as to ensure a minimum standard. many government organisations routinely do so. that OFB is unable to do so says more about them than about the vendors. if they are unable to create a tender with minimum QC it shows their lack of commitment or competence.
L1 is no longer a constraint in Govt procurement policy. One can have a combination of T1 + L1 in a ration of 50:50 or 70:30 or even 100% T1.

Overtime is the biggest problem with OFB.

I am not sure T1 policy applies to OFB equipment.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 23 Jun 2018 08:16

Thakur_B wrote:
Katare wrote:Where and when did OFB say that?

Both it’s gun failed trials.
Insaan mk1c cleared trials.

R2 has not failed.

Army wants to buy rifles in 3 phases
1. Outright purchase on emergency.
2. Open competition (in which OFB can also partake)
3. Employment generation for OFB where they get a percentage of orders.

Let me be greatly pessimistic and proclaim that all 3, in my opinion are bound to fail.
Bribery allegations in first, GQSR in second and poor quality in third shall be the banes.

Take away INSAS IP from OFB, give it to private firms for production with updated mil specs, and you will get good rifles for less than ₹30k. Khan chacha did this for m4/m16 and Fn is the largest supplier now.

Source?

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 25 Jun 2018 09:13

Excellent modification of awesome fn/fal sir :

7.62 ×51 mm DMR in service, a variant of SLR 1A1 Battle Rifle

https://twitter.com/shatrujeet009/statu ... 9592702977

I think with the big surplus of these in stock we can still have excellent rifle with modifications that we need in great numbers. Even though its an old design but highly lethal, proven and reliable (and in stock). I checked online there are some excellent modifications available that make it current and people who own one swear by it today on these upgraded rifles.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 25 Jun 2018 10:34

^ Nice bit of kit

Perhaps they could also try and change to a side folding stock, with adjustable cheek riser, like this one for instance..

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 25 Jun 2018 13:38

Manish for that stock to be used what internals in the FN FAL need to ne modified?
Krishna_krishna that was again half baked. As a DMR ok but to changs to asault rifle something else needed changing.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 25 Jun 2018 15:06

Actually quite a bit.. bolt carrier, lower receiver, top cover, recoil spring assembly, rear sight, pivoting stock assembly...

Is it worth it? For the enthusiasts maybe, for the soldier he is probably better off with a dedicated rifle for his designated role.

JMT

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 25 Jun 2018 15:31

Actually what dsa did was to modify the bolt carrier. In the original fn design the bolt carrier had a rod at the end which along with the recoil spring went into the stock.
To remove stock means a mod to the recoil spring mechanism.
There is a vid on the dsa sight and its pretty easy. I think they replaced the bolt carrier.
The lower receiver no change.
Anyhow the idea is not to recondition but to use the fnfal mechanism for new.
The top cover needs change just for rails.the way it fits is the same as before - almost.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Jun 2018 07:04

AA-12 shotgun. Around 50 sec mark, the presenters inform that it has been ordered by India. We are yet to come across any images in the field. So far the only gas operated shotgun we have seen is Franchi SPAS-15 with NSG.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Jun 2018 10:50

We seem to have imported all manners of imported small arms but dont want our private sector to be involved in Manufacture of small arms and ammunition.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jun 2018 12:31

Interesting modification

http://amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/the-war ... source=dam

IAF should do something similar.
Those Tokarev pistol is not enough

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 30 Jun 2018 17:51

Keltec bull pub 7.62x51 based on FN FAL is also an interesting concept & way more robust than Tavor 7

https://www.keltecweapons.com/rifles/rfb18

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 01 Jul 2018 08:13

Gyan wrote:Keltec bull pub 7.62x51 based on FN FAL is also an interesting concept & way more robust than Tavor 7

https://www.keltecweapons.com/rifles/rfb18

Interesting find mate.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 02 Jul 2018 17:44

ramana, the Russian planes come with Makarovs (9x18mm) as part of standard equipment. Despite what you see in movies, most pilots don’t have enough training to fight it out against even a lightly armed police force. If someone is really feeling Rambo-ish, they can always apply to get an AK74SU (or a Krinkov) like the Hind pilots carried in A’stan. A lot cheaper and easier to find supplies than an exotic custom weapon.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Jul 2018 17:48

ParGha wrote:ramana, the Russian planes come with Makarovs (9x18mm) as part of standard equipment. Despite what you see in movies, most pilots don’t have enough training to fight it out against even a lightly armed police force. If someone is really feeling Rambo-ish, they can always apply to get an AK74SU (or a Krinkov) like the Hind pilots carried in A’stan. A lot cheaper and easier to find supplies than an exotic custom weapon.

Pargha would appreciate your comments on the DSA fnmods.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 02 Jul 2018 18:14

Sachin, I don’t have any experience with the SLR and it is hard to parse the marketing hype from reality. One thing you have to remember is that 7.62x51mm has a strong recoil, and IA is going to be equipping an army of not only the large men from the northwest and the south, but also the 5’2” ~50KG Nagas, Gorkhas and Adivadis.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Jul 2018 18:21

I have seen women of Nagaland police handle the old 7.62 SLR with ease.

So with training it will not be a huge issue.

On a persy note. I have fired 303 as an NCC cadet during the 2 year program in my second secondary school. I was under 50 kg back in the day. Don't recall it being such a major issue.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 02 Jul 2018 19:59

I pretty much have milk teeth in this matter but a little research I have done on some cartriges, people with far more experience than me stated the ballistic characteristics of 6.5 or 6.8 rounds of 123gr bullet are not that bad to a 7.62 NATO having 175gr bullet considering other factors such as weight, recoil, number in magazine etc.
can anybody please explain to me, why we should be moving towards so heavier a round when we could have comparable ballistic characteristics upto 300m with a soldier carrying more bullets, facing less recoil and having a lighter gun while sacrificing approximately 20-30%(guesstimate) stopping power at 300m?
even DRDO wanted to play with 6.8 caliber with its MCIWS.

wig · Post by **wig** » 03 Jul 2018 16:19

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 840534.cms

The government has dispatched a nine-member "empowered committee", headed by an Army brigadier, to the US, Australia, South Korea, Israel and UAE to scout for new assault rifles and close-quarter battle carbines for the armed forces. .

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Jul 2018 16:40

wig wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 840534.cms
The government has dispatched a nine-member "empowered committee", headed by an Army brigadier, to the US, Australia, South Korea, Israel and UAE to scout for new assault rifles and close-quarter battle carbines for the armed forces. .

I feel complete and utter frustration that our army with its long tradition and history cannot rely on the nation for even rifles. I wish I never visited this thread.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Jul 2018 16:45

Why UAE and Australia. Do these nation's even have indigenous combat rifiels.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jul 2018 17:36

Looks more like Merry making trip sponsored by MOD , UAE and Australia , did they miss Saudi and visiting Houthis too ?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 03 Jul 2018 17:43

Perhaps try to save on costs by purchasing from OEM ?

Caracal of UAE did participate in the recent arms exhibition

IMVHO, if we do have to purchase, then we are better off purchasing direct from the manufacturers in US, Israel or Russia

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Jul 2018 18:04

Austin wrote:Looks more like Merry making trip sponsored by MOD , UAE and Australia , did they miss Saudi and visiting Houthis too ?

There is no fun to be had in Saudi Arabia and Houthi controlled Yemen like UAE (Dubai), Australia (goras on beaches), Israel (Jewish girls on beaches), US (TFTA California blondes on beaches) and Korea (KPOP girls.)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Jul 2018 19:43

Alright... here we go:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 840534.cms

Now, the critical 9 must include people from DRDO lab boys and ofb lads. /JMT

it is all about small arms, and how powerfully small it can get.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2018 23:50

SaiK wrote:Alright... here we go:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 840534.cms

Now, the critical 9 must include people from DRDO lab boys and ofb lads. /JMT

it is all about small arms, and how powerfully small it can get.

The defence ministry in March had finally set the ball rolling for the acquisition of 72,400 assault rifles, 93,895 CQB carbines, which were promised for infantry soldiers deployed on the borders with China and Pakistan under the fast-track procedure (FTP), by floating initial tenders or RFPs (requests for proposal) for them, as was first reported by TOI. "The empowered committee, which left on Saturday, will trial evaluate the rifles and carbines of the OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) or vendors in the different countries. The FTP selection will be based on operational requirements, and not on the long-drawn normal procurement process of GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements), field trials, staff evaluation etc," said an official.

The weapons found suitable by the empowered committee will then be brought to India by the OEMs for "compatibility tests" with Indian ammunition. The bids of those found compatible in the trials will subsequently be opened by the MoD.

These procurement cases for rifles and carbines are worth Rs 1,798 crore and Rs 1,749 crore, respectively. The FTP acquisition of 16,479 light machines for Rs 1,819 crore was also approved by the MoD in February but there is some delay in the case.
.

.
Under the Defence Procurement Procedure's strict timelines for the FTP, which caters for urgent operational requirements, the RFP has to be issued within 10 days of a case being cleared by the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) to ensure the actual contract after technical and commercial evaluation is inked within a year. The delivery of the weapons is supposed to thereafter take place in three to 12 months.

How do they expect a supplier to manufacture, acceptance test and deliver the weaposn in 12 months? Obivlously this is tailored for large suppliers.{/i]

The Army is keeping its fingers crossed. The force had first asked for new assault rifles and CQB carbines for its 382 infantry battalions (each with 850 soldiers each) way back in 2005, while the case for the light machine guns was initiated in 2009.

[i}{Why is the Army keeping fingers crossed? Its own Brigadier is empowered to make the selection from available wepaons instead of theri own GQSRs asking for impsooible unobtanium features from all the rifles in the world in one wepaon to be made yestrady by OFB!}

But the long-drawn procurement projects were repeatedly scrapped due to graft allegations or unrealistic technical parameters as well as the lack of indigenous options for well over a decade.

{Who was running the MoD during that decade? What did Army do to hedge for this non-procurments? Add more stringent GQSRs!!!}

Moreover, the FTP route is only for limited numbers of weapons due to critical operational necessity. For instance, the overall requirement is for 8.16 lakh new 7.62x51mm caliber assault rifles to replace the existing glitch-prone 5.56mm INSAS (Indian small arms system) rifles. Similarly, the numbers are 4.58 lakh for close-quarter battle carbines (5.56 x 45mm) and 43,544 for light machine guns (7.62x51mm). While the bulk of the weapons are meant for the infantry, some have been earmarked for the Navy and IAF also.

{So again they want two calibers: 7.62x51mm and 5.56x45mm. Good that means the 7.62x39 mm is ruled out. Or will they import these tow under some other necessity?}

The defence ministry has said that the huge shortfalls will be met at a later stage with Indian companies (private ones as well as Ordnance Factory Board) tying up with foreign ones to manufacture them under the "Make in India" framework, which could take at least four to five years to actually take off.

{The LMG numbers under 50K are too small for a private factory to be setup. It has to be setup with the supplier of the 7.62x51mm rifles for commonality. anyway why the precise number like 43544 LMGs cant they get some more for spares attrition or losses/ Such precise number jack up costs as they end up with odd lots.}

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Jul 2018 00:01

So nice little summer trip. Ofcourse it was a coincident that, the trip happen to be during summer.

We will trialing all the guns in their home country, to prepare us while invading these countries?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Jul 2018 00:10

Actually they have given up the GQSR boondoggle. Just buy most suitable available weapon on the market. Means essentially the design and development of small arms has been given up after the INSAS which had so many featured from many weapons. And the same officals call it 'glitch-prone'! Who came up with the GQSR? Who did acceptance testing? After how many long years?

I still would like one IA infantry officer to own up with who came up with the need for 5.56 mm when they had a perfectly great caliber in 7.62X51mm!