Indian Military Helicopters

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jul 2018 18:11

Lockheed Martin announces sale of a Sikorsky S-76D aircraft to the Government of Maharashtra.

First sale of an S-76D helicopter in India. Delivery in 2019.

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/10 ... 6327103488

Why dont State Gov buy Dhruv

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Jul 2018 23:46

Exactly. GOI should make sure that HAL does a proper ToT of the civilian Dhruv to a private player and all state and national agencies buy Dhruv when they have to look into this category.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Jul 2018 13:32

Dhurv with SAR Rescue Basket

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiUTTvCUEAAbvG7.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiUTVa1VAAETROe.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiUTXYeU8AAlHLi.jpg

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Jul 2018 13:59

Austin wrote:Why dont State Gov buy Dhruv

Because Dhruv is not FAA and EASA certified.

Indranil wrote:Exactly. GOI should make sure that HAL does a proper ToT of the civilian Dhruv to a private player and all state and national agencies buy Dhruv when they have to look into this category.

ToT wont help in certification, that will be a money and time consuming process.

While Dhurv has DGCA approval, the design and productions kinks have not yet been ironed out sufficiently.

Check out the following airworthiness directives issued by DGCA. Quite a few of them.

1-7-2008 http://dgca.nic.in/AD/AD%20004.pdf

1.On one of the DHRUV helicopter, there was an in flight warning for collective pitch anticipator (CPA) redundancy failure for engine-2. During check CPA connector was found to be loose. As a result of this, loss of CPA input to the FADEC has resulted and caused failure of CPA redundancy for engine-2.

2. On another DHRUV helicopter, there was a warning for CPA failure on both the FADEC when collective pitch was lowered after touch down. On investigation, it was observed that the CPA input to both FADEC was out of range. Further it was found that CPA moving end check nut was loose and tab washer used for locking the check nut was bent incorrectly. These factors had contributed to the CPA rigging disturbance and were the cause for the snag.

3.There was an in-flight power loss warning followed with large split in NG, TGT and torque parameters of the two engines. Investigations with diagnostic PC revealed that FADEC2 had logged CPA failure. On checking CPA circuit, one wire on the flying lead of CPA was found cut at about 4 inches from the connector due to sharp fold in the CPA flying lead. Since unsafe conditions have been identified that are likely to exist or develop on other aircraft of the same type design, this Airworthiness Directive is being issued for inspection and submission of the compliance certificate to Certification and Airworthiness Group of RWR&DC, HAL, Bangalore.

6-2-2012 http://dgca.nic.in/AD/PAD%2012-001.pdf

During investigation of some of the incidents of Advanced Light Helicopter (Dhruv) owned by defense forces, it was found that the collective eye-ends of connecting rod assembly were broken. Since an unsafe condition has been identified which is likely to develop on other Advanced Light Helicopters of similar type design,this Airworthiness Directive is being issued for installation of improved steel eye-ends in place of existing titanium eye-ends to achieve higher fatigue strength.

28-3-2012 http://dgca.nic.in/AD/PAD%2012-002.pdf

In one of the civil Dhruv Helicopter, step marks at spline area of input flange of Intermediate Gear Box (IGB)was reported.

7-9-2012 http://dgca.nic.in/AD/AD029.pdf

In one of the Dhruv Helicopter, Lock washer - hub retention nut was found cracked during turn around inspection. Close examination showed that hub retention nut was loose which may lead to higher vibration of tail rotor.

21-3-2013 http://dgca.nic.in/AD/AD030.pdf

In accordance with the para 3.3 (v) of GM 21.91 of CAR 21, this modification is considered as mandatory Major Modification by the TC holder as an unsafe condition has been identified which exists in other Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH)-Dhruv.

2-12-2014 http://dgca.gov.in/AD/AD%20031.pdf

6-6-2016 http://dgca.nic.in/ad/AD%20033.pdf

In one of the advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), restriction of movement was observed in the longitudinal circuit on Main Rotor Actuator (MRA) and Tail Rotor Actuator (TRA). Restriction of movement of circuit would lead to reduced controllability of helicopter.

While these are very normal growth pains, no civilian operator would have the bandwidth to accommodate downtime and additional financial expenditure to resolve issues as they come up. They would rather go for proven models.

Also, I've always maintained that Indian are an import pasand people, with people preferring Japanese, Korean, US, German cars to indigenous Tata & Mahindra. Real change in mindset needs to start from grassroots.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Jul 2018 15:54

Most IAF Mi-17 have this cabin mounted MMG
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dhohth3V4AA5gBW.jpg

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Jul 2018 16:10

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1019658453277708289

We can confirm that the first AH-64E Apache for the Indian Air Force took its first flight on July 16 at Mesa, Arizona. Deliveries begin in March 2019.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Jul 2018 23:36

TSarkar,

1. These helis are unlikely to fly out of India. For flying in India they do not need EASA/FAA certification. They require DGCA certification only.
2. Niggles during certification is routine. If any of these were safety critical, there would no certificate issued.
3. VVIP helicopters don't work like chartered planes. They spend a lot of time on the ground.
4. If Dhruv is a made mandated buy, then there must be punitive action on HAL if they can't guarantee certain up times. And the same goes for the private sector company which gets the license to manufacture the civilian version.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jul 2018 01:16

Also such sqawks are common to Western products too.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2018 07:25

Indranil wrote:TSarkar,

1. These helis are unlikely to fly out of India. For flying in India they do not need EASA/FAA certification. They require DGCA certification only.
2. Niggles during certification is routine. If any of these were safety critical, there would no certificate issued.
3. VVIP helicopters don't work like chartered planes. They spend a lot of time on the ground.
4. If Dhruv is a made mandated buy, then there must be punitive action on HAL if they can't guarantee certain up times. And the same goes for the private sector company which gets the license to manufacture the civilian version.

Exactly , every state and central government agency should be mandated to buy Indian made choppers if similar class is available via Hal or others.

Mah gov buying just single S-76D is not just expensive but maintenance nightmare likely some one up there must have been bribed into buying this when Dhruv can be bought and maintained here.

I just read Mah gov paid $15 million or 100 Cr for this chopper !

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2018 08:48

India, Russia in advanced talks for $1.1 billion chopper deal

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2018 08:53

any indian govt agency should be mandated to buy Dhruv or LUH. mantris and tantris can travel light.

if they want heavy let them purchase Mi17v which atleast has BRD in India.

mody · Post by **mody** » 20 Jul 2018 13:22

Austin wrote:India, Russia in advanced talks for $1.1 billion chopper deal

Hope they go ahead and sign this, during Putin's visit or any other time and put to rest the Ka-226T deal once and for all. LUH is well on its way to start production sometime next year.

chola · Post by **chola** » 20 Jul 2018 14:28

mody wrote:
Austin wrote:India, Russia in advanced talks for $1.1 billion chopper deal
Hope they go ahead and sign this, during Putin's visit or any other time and put to rest the Ka-226T deal once and for all. LUH is well on its way to start production sometime next year.

No, the Ka-226T contract is all but set. Just last month:
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... a/1191751/

This is would be another big buy from Rus. I do worry about all the phoren imports even though the helo division had been our best MII endeavor. This new one for medium choppers is at least for something we don’t make (now.) The Kamovs, though, are a definite intrusion into the LUH’s potential sales.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 20 Jul 2018 19:38

chola wrote:
This is would be another big buy from Rus. I do worry about all the phoren imports even though the helo division had been our best MII endeavor. This new one for medium choppers is at least for something we don’t make (now.) The Kamovs, though, are a definite intrusion into the LUH’s potential sales.

Cholaji, IMO the market for helis should expand in the coming years as we make progress economically. The civilian sector will see a boost in Light helis in various sectors like law enforcement and even transportation for mildly rich people. LUH will find a place there.
Military have said they are going to replace cheetah and chetak with LUH and hopefully as modernization of armed forces progress they will buy more LUH than they had those two types. LUH will have a big market in India and over the time maybe some export even if we buy some 100 helis now.
As for Ka-226s advantages they will bring modularity so can be deployed for different tasks, they might look small but can lift some serious weight(these make them different from LUH) and they will be built in India so HAL will get the first hand look at co-axial rotor workings which hopefully they can translate to future helis.
Americans are using Co-axial rotor technology for their FVL program, India could go that way if HAL doesn't bungle.
I am more worried about the IMRH program, due to which we are buying helis for Navy.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Jul 2018 23:53

To get coaxial rotor tech, it is much better to join Kamov in the KA-92 project. Build pusher 450+ kmph helis in every segment from there on.

Ka-226Ts don't get us anything.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 21 Jul 2018 00:34

Indranil wrote:To get coaxial rotor tech, it is much better to join Kamov in the KA-92 project. Build pusher 450+ kmph helis in every segment from there on.

Ka-226Ts don't get us anything.

+1
Any venture where we gain new technology and can contribute to a product line that we can't make ourselves is great! Forming collaborations on projects that are just starting and creating an airbus like model will serve both Russia/India/Europe well. Asking us to just buy is over for most products. The faster every one recognizes that better it is.

mody · Post by **mody** » 21 Jul 2018 14:45

souravB wrote:
chola wrote:
This is would be another big buy from Rus. I do worry about all the phoren imports even though the helo division had been our best MII endeavor. This new one for medium choppers is at least for something we don’t make (now.) The Kamovs, though, are a definite intrusion into the LUH’s potential sales.
Cholaji, IMO the market for helis should expand in the coming years as we make progress economically. The civilian sector will see a boost in Light helis in various sectors like law enforcement and even transportation for mildly rich people. LUH will find a place there.
Military have said they are going to replace cheetah and chetak with LUH and hopefully as modernization of armed forces progress they will buy more LUH than they had those two types. LUH will have a big market in India and over the time maybe some export even if we buy some 100 helis now.
As for Ka-226s advantages they will bring modularity so can be deployed for different tasks, they might look small but can lift some serious weight(these make them different from LUH) and they will be built in India so HAL will get the first hand look at co-axial rotor workings which hopefully they can translate to future helis.
Americans are using Co-axial rotor technology for their FVL program, India could go that way if HAL doesn't bungle.
I am more worried about the IMRH program, due to which we are buying helis for Navy.

"Mildly Rich" people buying locally made civilain helicopters for personal transport.... well don't see that happening for at least 15 years. In fact even in western rich countries, personal planes are more popular then personal helicopters. Helis are mostly confined to the corporate sector.

Also, your claim that Ka-226T can lift some "serious weight". Don't know what serious weight really means. Care to compare the load carrying capacity of LUH and Ka-226T at various altitudes? Please back up your claim with facts.

For a one time build under ToT for 140 nos, we will learn absoltely nothing. The entire power pack will come directly from russia and we will simply have to assemble the same along with the rest of the parts of the chopper. We will learn exactly the same about coaxial rotors and the associated gearbox, as we have learned from operating the Ka-27/28 family of choppers, for the past 20+ years.

All that the Ka-226T deal will do is reduce the orders for LUH by 200 nos. Even the emergency expedited buy argument is no longer valid. The deal at best will be signed in October and the deliveries of the 60 helis to be built in Russia, will start from around December 2019. Thats the same as start of delivery for LUH.
Instead we should have simply bought 60 Ka-226T in a direct purchase from Russia, 3 years back. Next end of 2019, the deliveries for all 60 would have been complete.

Jingo in me still hopes that we will instead give the Russians the deal for outright purchase of 4 Talvar class frigates and the 48 Mi-17V5's and drop the Ka-226T for good.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 21 Jul 2018 17:35

mody wrote:
"Mildly Rich" people buying locally made civilain helicopters for personal transport.... well don't see that happening for at least 15 years. In fact even in western rich countries, personal planes are more popular then personal helicopters. Helis are mostly confined to the corporate sector.

modyji, I can wait for 15 years if that's what you say the time frame will be.

mody wrote:
Also, your claim that Ka-226T can lift some "serious weight". Don't know what serious weight really means. Care to compare the load carrying capacity of LUH and Ka-226T at various altitudes? Please back up your claim with facts.

hover and load carrying comparison of four contenders in India's Light Helicopter program
This is the only comparison that I could find that shows some numbers. It compares ROC for different scenarios not total load carrying. And by those numbers LUH with the full power of the Shakti engine is the better in high altitudes. But in reality there are also some things we must take into perspective
1. LUH uses a lower powered engine less than 3/4 of rated 1067KW
2. LUH is heaviest of the bunch
3. This data does not do any comparison when the helis are used in crane mode where 226 can lift upto 1.2-1.5t
Both the helis might be in same weight class but have different fields where they could be employed very effectively. and the requirements are there for both types.

mody wrote: For a one time build under ToT for 140 nos, we will learn absoltely nothing. The entire power pack will come directly from russia and we will simply have to assemble the same along with the rest of the parts of the chopper. We will learn exactly the same about coaxial rotors and the associated gearbox, as we have learned from operating the Ka-27/28 family of choppers, for the past 20+ years.

All that the Ka-226T deal will do is reduce the orders for LUH by 200 nos. Even the emergency expedited buy argument is no longer valid. The deal at best will be signed in October and the deliveries of the 60 helis to be built in Russia, will start from around December 2019. Thats the same as start of delivery for LUH.
Instead we should have simply bought 60 Ka-226T in a direct purchase from Russia, 3 years back. Next end of 2019, the deliveries for all 60 would have been complete.

Jingo in me still hopes that we will instead give the Russians the deal for outright purchase of 4 Talvar class frigates and the 48 Mi-17V5's and drop the Ka-226T for good.

JV between HAL and Russian Helicopter

The JV will be formed with Indian defence aviation giant HAL holding 50.5% of the stakes and Russian manufacturers, Russian Helicopter and Rostec holding 42.5% and 7% of the stakes respectively. The helicopters are to be manufactured at an ‘under-construction’ state-of-the-art facility in Tumkur near Bengaluru.

Of the 140 helicopters, initially at least 40 are to be built from Semi Knocked Down Kits (KDK) imported from Russia with the rest being manufactured from scratch by HAL.

The helicopter will be built beside the Ka-226T choppers in Tumkur facility and HAL has stated that it will be manufacturing at least four LUH prototypes in this Fiscal Year (FY). LUH is expected to receive its certification by the year end, following which HAL will commence serial production phase.

JV details

The third stage is the production of components from supplied materials and assembly. The fourth stage is full assembly of helicopters from components with materials produced locally or delivered from Russia and involves customer personnel joint training and infrastructure setup of service and maintenance center.

Not only TOT, but there will be a production facility. if HAL cannot soak up mechanics of Co-axial rotor after this, then.......

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Jul 2018 21:58

Boss,

I don’t think you understand what Vivek wrote. The Ardiden 1U is the most powerful Ardiden designed till date. Yes, more powerful than the Shakti (Ardiden 1H) installed on Dhruv. It has more than 25% power than the combined output of the two Arrius on the Ka-226T.

The transmission on LUH is limited to 750 kW (for continuous operations) which does not allow the heli to use its full engine power at sea level. But at heights the performance is no longer limited by the the transmission as the engine power falls drastically. There, with 25% more power and much lower rotor loading the LUH will run circles around Ka-226T.

These are the same conditions on the ALH. LUH is just half the power and half the weight. They are suboptimal for the plains, but at heights nothing touches them. Apaches can’t go where LCH can go with armaments.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Jul 2018 00:56

And how many imported planes have we manufactured under ToT, operated and maintained. And not just at HAL. What design capabilities have we gained from them?

We should get out of PSUs being rojgaar yojanas to fully functional design and manufacturing units. They are capable of being the latter. The govt. has to take the unpopular decision. The Modi govt. had the mandate and the popular goodwill to do it. But they squandered much of it away by playing musical chairs with Defense Dept. and pulling off some stunts like demonetization. I don’t know if they will risk something as difficult when they return to power in 2019. The winds of anti incumbency are strong in all democracies. Simplifying labour laws and trimming DPSUs into lean mean functional units is going to upset a great number of people. Will they have that gumption? One thing is for sure, if it doesn’t happen by end of 2021, it is unlikely to happen for at least a decade thereafter. But, I digress.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 22 Jul 2018 07:53

Thanks for the clarification, Indranilji.
Yes the LUH have advantage at higher altitudes, also 226 will have difficulties due to it's design at high altitudes. But that same design choice gives it an advantage at plains as cargo. also due to the modular design it can be configured as an air crane. That's why I advocated that both of the helis have place in our armed forces and can have distinctive roles.
HAL after so many years of screwdrivergiri did produced some helis like ALH AND LCH. but yes, that could have been sooner. Personally I feel HAL should focus more on next gen platforms like tilt-rotor but a jingo can wish. Maybe this JV like Bramhos might help produce the next gen of Indian vertical lift. who knows...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Jul 2018 09:54

Actually, HAL hardly did any screwdriver giri in helis. Lots in transport, trainer and fighter aircraft. Design skills of HAL in these domains is actually transposed. Which highlights what I have been saying.

Ka-226T is a political buy. IAF/IA did not even select it. The whole selection process was curtailed to pacify the Russians as they were not getting any orders from us. On top of that, the MTA project was terminated. And on top of that both LUH and Ka-226T will be made by HAL. The latter is bound to be more expensive, thanks to license fee, shipping etc. and the latter makes the first one more expensive than it should be lowering the economies of scale.

Technically, KA-226T is a nonsensical buy, quite literally. India would have been better served with the co-design pusher helis with Russian Helicopters. Two of the three Armed Forces have already evinced interest. It is where the world is progressing. India, Russia and both the companies stood to gain from the process.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2018 10:56

Indranil wrote:Actually, HAL hardly did any screwdriver giri in helis. Lots in transport, trainer and fighter aircraft. Design skills of HAL in these domains is actually transposed. Which highlights what I have been saying.

Ka-226T is a political buy. IAF/IA did not even select it. The whole selection process was curtailed to pacify the Russians as they were not getting any orders from us. On top of that, the MTA project was terminated. And on top of that both LUH and Ka-226T will be made by HAL. The latter is bound to be more expensive, thanks to license fee, shipping etc. and the latter makes the first one more expensive than it should be lowering the economies of scale.

Technically, KA-226T is a nonsensical buy, quite literally. India would have been better served with the co-design pusher helis with Russian Helicopters. Two of the three Armed Forces have already evinced interest. It is where the world is progressing. India, Russia and both the companies stood to gain from the process.

Indranil thats not the entire fact.

>>LUH deal was cancelled twice at the last moment because some vendor would complain against its competitor of some process not followed or biased in selection and it got cancelled loosing many years in bargain.
>>The 3rd time the process was going no where involving the same vendor.
>>>All 3 demonstrated their performance to the IAF/IA in length trial , CCS decided to opt for Ka-226
>>Neither IAF or IA has any thing against Ka-226 , They want the chopper earliest to replace the CHeetha/Chetak
>>Co-axial rotors offer better safety and better high altitude performance , twin engine offers better safety than single engine ,
>>A total of 1,200kg of cargo can be transported by the helicopter inside the cabin and it can carry 1,500kg load on external sling. The maximum take-off weight with under-slung load is 3,800kg.
>> Because of both Military and Non Military market for light heli both LUH and Ka-226 can co-exist much like cheetha and chetak co-existed for decades.
>> The delay is due to prolonged negotiation common with any defence deal in India its not IAF/IA fault that the delay is there

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 Jul 2018 18:58

Indranil wrote:3. VVIP helicopters don't work like chartered planes. They spend a lot of time on the ground.

For corporations, possibly. For State Governments, they work as much as military choppers. For example while inspecting flood hit districts, they fly into rough weather. Andhra Pradesh CM YS Rajasekhara Reddy died in a helo crash in rough weather & bad terrain. Arunachal Pradesh CM Dorjee Khandu died in a helo crash. Maharashtra CM Devendra Phadnavis has had multiple hard landings. State Govt Helicopters also fly state personnel / cargo on official/emergency duty.

Indranil wrote:1. These helis are unlikely to fly out of India. For flying in India they do not need EASA/FAA certification. They require DGCA certification only.

Just like for vehicles Bharat Standard 4 (BS4) is derived from Euro4, DGCA too relies on EASA/FAA standards. Essentially these standards certify a level of performance and reliability.

Indranil wrote:2. Niggles during certification is routine. If any of these were safety critical, there would no certificate issued.

All these niggles from 2008 to 2016 were after certification.

But as I mentioned earlier, niggles arent the issue. The attitude and approach to solve niggles is what matters.

Indranil wrote:4. If Dhruv is a made mandated buy, then there must be punitive action on HAL if they can't guarantee certain up times. And the same goes for the private sector company which gets the license to manufacture the civilian version.

Historically customer support wasnt HAL's forte, which is why BSF ditched its 8 Dhruv and purchased 6 Mi-17-1V and 12 Mi-17V5 for anti naxal operations and Ecuador dumped its fleet.

https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/B ... 614341.ece
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/b ... ss/794597/
http://bsf.nic.in/en/air-wing.html

Point I'm trying to make is that larger organizations like IAF, IN, IA, ICG can make aircraft work on its own. Smaller organizations with single digit aircraft like BSF, Jharkhand Government or Ecuador need a lot of support and training - something that HAL wasnt forthcoming.

Unless HAL or its licensee change status quo, civilian sales would be unlikely. Civilian operators dont have the deep capabilities of military operators to cover up for OEM deficiencies.

The reason I gave the example of Tata & Mahindra cars is the lack of their level of refinement and performance vis-a-vis Japanese, Korean and German cars in Indian market. The consumer decision is obvious. It wont be any different for helicopters.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 23 Jul 2018 01:23

Austin wrote:
Indranil wrote:Actually, HAL hardly did any screwdriver giri in helis. Lots in transport, trainer and fighter aircraft. Design skills of HAL in these domains is actually transposed. Which highlights what I have been saying.

Ka-226T is a political buy. IAF/IA did not even select it. The whole selection process was curtailed to pacify the Russians as they were not getting any orders from us. On top of that, the MTA project was terminated. And on top of that both LUH and Ka-226T will be made by HAL. The latter is bound to be more expensive, thanks to license fee, shipping etc. and the latter makes the first one more expensive than it should be lowering the economies of scale.

Technically, KA-226T is a nonsensical buy, quite literally. India would have been better served with the co-design pusher helis with Russian Helicopters. Two of the three Armed Forces have already evinced interest. It is where the world is progressing. India, Russia and both the companies stood to gain from the process.
Indranil thats not the entire fact.

>>LUH deal was cancelled twice at the last moment because some vendor would complain against its competitor of some process not followed or biased in selection and it got cancelled loosing many years in bargain.
>>The 3rd time the process was going no where involving the same vendor.
>>>All 3 demonstrated their performance to the IAF/IA in length trial , CCS decided to opt for Ka-226
>>Neither IAF or IA has any thing against Ka-226 , They want the chopper earliest to replace the CHeetha/Chetak
>>Co-axial rotors offer better safety and better high altitude performance , twin engine offers better safety than single engine ,
>>A total of 1,200kg of cargo can be transported by the helicopter inside the cabin and it can carry 1,500kg load on external sling. The maximum take-off weight with under-slung load is 3,800kg.
>> Because of both Military and Non Military market for light heli both LUH and Ka-226 can co-exist much like cheetha and chetak co-existed for decades.
>> The delay is due to prolonged negotiation common with any defence deal in India its not IAF/IA fault that the delay is there

Actually, it is a strategic buy. Till we haven't indigenised the engine tech, expect close to 50% of orders to go to russia via mi 17 and ka 226 etc

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Jul 2018 22:29

Austin wrote: Indranil thats not the entire fact.

>>LUH deal was cancelled twice at the last moment because some vendor would complain against its competitor of some process not followed or biased in selection and it got cancelled loosing many years in bargain.
>>The 3rd time the process was going no where involving the same vendor.
>>>All 3 demonstrated their performance to the IAF/IA in length trial , CCS decided to opt for Ka-226

And that's what I said: the selection was not completed and the CCS (headed by the Def Min.) decided on the winner based on geopolitics.

Austin wrote: >>Neither IAF or IA has any thing against Ka-226 , They want the chopper earliest to replace the CHeetha/Chetak

I said this then, I say this now. The Ka-226s won't come before the LUH.

Austin wrote:
>>Co-axial rotors offer better safety and better high altitude performance , twin engine offers better safety than single engine ,

I don't know how co-axial rotors or twin engines provide higher safety at high altitudes. If one of the KA-226s engines fail at high altitude, it will crash. High altitudes operations have been carried out by armed forces around the world for a few decades now. Don't see many co-axial helis there. And, modern engines have become reliable enough where you don't need the safety net of the second engine. Today, there are more single-engined helicopters and aircrafts than their multi-engine counterparts, and both share similar safety records.

Austin wrote:
>>A total of 1,200kg of cargo can be transported by the helicopter inside the cabin and it can carry 1,500kg load on external sling. MTOW weight with under-slung load is 3,800kg.

Russian helicopters website says that the max internal and external loads are 1050 kgs and 1100 kgs respectively. MTOW is 3600 kgs (internal) and 3800 kgs (external). If you work backwards, accounting for 500 kgs of fuel, KA-226T has a basic empty weight of 2,000 kgs. LUH's empty weight is 1870 kgs, and it has more powerful engines. So you tell me.... what do the laws of physics say?

Austin wrote:
>> Because of both Military and Non Military market for light heli both LUH and Ka-226 can co-exist much like cheetha and chetak co-existed for decades.
>> The delay is due to prolonged negotiation common with any defence deal in India its not IAF/IA fault that the delay is there

There is space for co-existence of Fennec and Ka-226 and the LUH. The question is: should they?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Jul 2018 23:06

Picklu wrote: Actually, it is a strategic buy. Till we haven't indigenised the engine tech, expect close to 50% of orders to go to russia via mi 17 and ka 226 etc

Our entire light helo fleet during the latter years of the cold war and beyond was made up entirely of French helicopters without indigenised engines. Where were the strategic considerations then?

Mi-17 is different. It has no indigenous counterpart and we already operate hundreds of them and it has served us extremely well (not to mention several other operators around the world). So forget 50%. 100% of medium lift helicopter orders will go to the Mi-17. The questions are only around Ka-226.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 25 Jul 2018 04:11

nachiket wrote:
Picklu wrote: Actually, it is a strategic buy. Till we haven't indigenised the engine tech, expect close to 50% of orders to go to russia via mi 17 and ka 226 etc
Our entire light helo fleet during the latter years of the cold war and beyond was made up entirely of French helicopters without indigenised engines. Where were the strategic considerations then?

Mi-17 is different. It has no indigenous counterpart and we already operate hundreds of them and it has served us extremely well (not to mention several other operators around the world). So forget 50%. 100% of medium lift helicopter orders will go to the Mi-17. The questions are only around Ka-226.

India at the time of cold war and India today are not the same.

At that time, Indian politicians made declaration that the camera of IRS series of sats would be shut down when they were above China. We paid extra to remove the air refueling capability of M2k.

Do you see us making similar choices today?

It is not about any one sources - french, british or russian

Russia is not what it used to be. We have significant US hardware now. French are quite overpriced, mercantile and susceptible to pressure. So expect us to maintain significant source diversity in all kind of essential equipment as long as it is not completely indigenous and we have economic choice.

And the necessity of Heli is far more today than it used to be earlier. We are no longer a piss poor rag tag military force now (comparatively), helis are extensively used where the usage were more 'selective' earlier.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 25 Jul 2018 05:10

http://www.janes.com/article/81928/indi ... rom-russia

I shall be very surprised if even one Ka 226 comes to India. JV or No JV. Mi 17 is the strategic buy that keeps everyone very happy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jul 2018 07:13

Rishi_Tri wrote:
India to buy 48 Mi-17 helicopters

by Rahul Bedi

India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) is concluding negotiations with Russia to acquire 48 additional Mi-17-V5 military transport/utility helicopters for USD1.1 billion for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA).

Official Indian sources told Jane’s on 23 July that the deal for the twin-engine helicopters – 38 of which are earmarked for the IAF – is likely to be signed during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to India in early October for the annual bilateral summit between the leaders of the two countries.

The proposed deal also includes an offset obligation that requires all vendors to invest 30% of the overall contractual value of all military purchases over INR20 billion (USD290 million) into India’s defence, internal security, and aviation sectors.

The additional Mi-17-V5s are meant to supplement the 151 similar platforms that India acquired between 2008 and 2016, 139 of which were procured as weaponised versions for the IAF, with the remaining 12 being acquired for use by the MHA and the country’s paramilitary forces.

It is unclear, however, whether all 38 proposed platforms for the IAF will be weaponised.

Moreover, IAF sources said that some of the additional Mi-17-V5s might be used as replacements for the six to eight platforms that were diverted to the IAF’s Communication Squadron in 2015-16 to transport Indian VIPs. The diversion came after the MoD scrapped the import of 12 AgustaWestland AW101 helicopters from Italy in January 2014 following corruption allegations.

The IAF had initially acquired 90 Mi-17-1Vs in the late 1990s as replacements for the ageing Mi-8 ‘Pratap’ helicopters that were phased out in December 2017 after 45 years of service.

In 2008 the IAF procured 80 Mi-17-V5s for USD1.34 billion and followed this four years later by importing another 71 helicopters for USD1.53 billion, deliveries of which were completed by 2016–17.

Very informative article. Also expect 30% of the total cost to be offsets. Maybe a maintenance center for the Mi-17?

So IAF has 90 Mi-17, 151 Mi-17V5s.
Of these 139 are weaponized and 12 are not.

Can some one figure out how many of these 48 are weaponized?

I guess all 30-32 will be weaponized with the 6-8 helicopters reverted to IAF transport role

deejay?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 25 Jul 2018 07:52

Why have we not gone for a licensed manufacture of Mi-17V5s?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Jul 2018 08:16

Kashi wrote:Why have we not gone for a licensed manufacture of Mi-17V5s?

Because we expect to have IMRH in service in the next 5to 7 years.

jpremnath · Post by **jpremnath** » 25 Jul 2018 08:43

Didn't the Navy shoot down the IMRH saying it was unsolicited and that they are looking for a future ready platform instead?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jul 2018 09:31

Where’s philip sahab when it is really the time to raise a toast to Russia. 1.1 billion of 48 world class medium weight helicopters. If there is value for money, this is it.

prashantsharma · Post by **prashantsharma** » 25 Jul 2018 10:10

It is odd that the paramilitary forces are getting MI-17s but the army whiose requirement is 10x larger has to struggle to convince policy makers to get itw own fleet of med-lift choppers and even anti-armour Apaches

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2018 10:36

jpremnath wrote:Didn't the Navy shoot down the IMRH saying it was unsolicited and that they are looking for a future ready platform instead?

They did the same for Naval Dhruv

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jul 2018 10:40

I have no knowledge of this. Kindly elucidate. IN joined the IMRH bandwagon later when the specs had already been finalized based on IA/IAF requirements. Much water has flown under the Farakka since then.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 25 Jul 2018 12:27

Indranil wrote:Also, I've always maintained that Indian are an import pasand people, with people preferring Japanese, Korean, US, German cars to indigenous Tata & Mahindra. Real change in mindset needs to start from grassroots.

This is THE reason that state governmets ill not opt for a local make / model. Recently a Karnatak minister wanted a Toyota Fortuner instead of the Toyota Innove given to him. Status and Ego. Perhaps HAL is well aware and does not bother much to get the certification fro civil use

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Jul 2018 12:54

An alternate explaination could be that MOD did not allow HAL to work for the civil aviation market.

A restriction recently removed from the HAL.

jpremnath · Post by **jpremnath** » 25 Jul 2018 16:36

Indranil wrote:I have no knowledge of this. Kindly elucidate. IN joined the IMRH bandwagon later when the specs had already been finalized based on IA/IAF requirements. Much water has flown under the Farakka since then.

My bad...its the Army and not IN...http://www.aviationindia.net/2018/06/in ... ed-by.html
This is pretty much the only source, as usual DDM hasnt quoted anyone, but says "Indian Army Planners are not impressed..."