Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

[Indranil]

FPA is from Sofradir. The only real local FPA capable of being used in current gen TI products is from an IIT project but has yet to be mass manufactured or ordered, and is more suitable for conventional NV optics.

Tonbo et al dont do FPAs, they license assemble commercially available electronics and FPAs with their secret sauce image processing and combine that with their own precision manufactured optics (though even some of that may be imported from Zeiss et al)

Will take your word on the subject.

[Gyan]

As per a CAG Report we imported 50 seekers for Nag missiles at cost of rupees Rs 32 crores.

I think option of laser guided or radio-controlled atgm would be more cost effective for surface to Surface role

DRDO and BDL has successfully tested both laser guided and radio controlled ATGM

[ramana]

https://twitter.com/DrUddipan/status/10 ... 66816?s=19

[ArjunPandit]

https://twitter.com/DrUddipan/status/10 ... 66816?s=19

why are they showing a ship launched missile (b'mos most likely) for Helina?

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1033309757954650112

As far as a Short Range Surface to Air Missile (SRSAM) for the Indian Navy's surface combatants is concerned, India's Ministry of Defence has decided to procure 4 sets from abroad while sourcing 10 more via the indigenous route. So the 'Son of Trishul' will rise, methinks.

[Vips]

Procurement of 14 Vertically Launched Short Range Missile Systems cleared by the DAC. Of these, 10 systems will be indigenously developed. These systems will boost the self-defence capability of ships against anti-ship missiles. .

[Chinmay]

What exactly does procurement of "4 sets from abroad while sourcing 10 more via the indigenous route" mean? JV and local manufacture as before (LRSAM) or two separate systems?

[Karan M]

QRSAM derivative unless it is VL launched in which case a new missile.

[Picklu]

Tonbo et al dont do FPAs, they license assemble commercially available electronics and FPAs with their secret sauce image processing and combine that with their own precision manufactured optics (though even some of that may be imported from Zeiss et al)

Agree, used the term scale up loosely, hoping Tonbo goes beyond Micromax, Lava, Hero Motocorp

[Picklu]

3. I simply do not see the use case of 20 km ATGM, forget 40 KM. God knows how are we/anyone going to target!! If bulk targeting that far is possible, why not anti tank cluster warhead? Why individual large motors? The only use case I can think of would be marine/naval however the target type has to change from tank to boat

Use case is to stay out of MANPAD and SHORADS envelope. Preserve the platform. Long range targeting via the fighter radar or Litening.

Don't know Karan.

When targeting is by off platform long range sensor, why individual missile per tank from helo? Why not anti tank cluster munition released by fast jets from outside envelop anyway? Or a mod of Pinaka with seeker?

Helo launched missile makes sense only if the targeting sensor is also on-board giving it autonomy.

[Karan M]

Cluster weapons are indiscriminate. When your people are close by you need precision yet protect the launch platform. The missile will still be used for the Mi-35 and most likely extended to fighters.

[Bart S]

Cluster weapons are indiscriminate. When your people are close by you need precision yet protect the launch platform. The missile will still be used for the Mi-35 and most likely extended to fighters.

Also, tanks might not be the only things that need to be attacked. There is a good use-case for a laser-guided helicopter-based weapon that can be released at a decent range and carry out precision strikes on bunkers/high value targets/fortifications. This can probably be a lot cheaper than the anti-tank missile and can be also used on the border for ongoing low-intensity conflict.

[John]

QRSAM derivative unless it is VL launched in which case a new missile.

It will likely be Vl-MICA.

[dhyana]

Ahead of '2+2' dialogue, India moves to buy 24 US MH-60R helicopters

Four of these short-range missile systems will be bought directly from a foreign company, while the remaining 10 will be developed by an Indian partner. It has been speculated that the missile system being purchased is France's VL MICA system, offered by the European defence giant MBDA, though this is yet to be confirmed.

Interestingly, VL MICA is the surface-launched derivative of the MICA missile system that is being bought for the Indian Air Force's upgraded Mirage-2000s and future fleet of Rafale fighters.

May be news websites reference Bharat-Rakshak?

[Karan M]

QRSAM derivative unless it is VL launched in which case a new missile.

It will likely be Vl-MICA.

All depends on whether Make in India or Made in India for the 10 units. If Indian design and developed then wont be the Mica. If its merely to be assembled here.. err.. made here, then VL Mica it could be for the whole deal.

[Indranil]

Ahead of '2+2' dialogue, India moves to buy 24 US MH-60R helicopters

Four of these short-range missile systems will be bought directly from a foreign company, while the remaining 10 will be developed by an Indian partner. It has been speculated that the missile system being purchased is France's VL MICA system, offered by the European defence giant MBDA, though this is yet to be confirmed.

Interestingly, VL MICA is the surface-launched derivative of the MICA missile system that is being bought for the Indian Air Force's upgraded Mirage-2000s and future fleet of Rafale fighters.

May be news websites reference Bharat-Rakshak?

They do. But, Livefist first broke this AFAIK.

[Philip]

"Developed in India?'" Another programme like Trishul or does it mean local productikn of the remaining systems?
How many varied systems can a service handle?

However, with the success of Astra, as has bee done elsewhere, the same missile could bd developed into an SR SAM system.

[Karan M]

"Developed in India?'" Another programme like Trishul or does it mean local productikn of the remaining systems?
How many varied systems can a service handle?

However, with the success of Astra, as has bee done elsewhere, the same missile could bd developed into an SR SAM system.

The Navy and AF have both adopted a policy of dual sourcing from quite some time now, which clearly you haven't noticed.
The initial systems are imports followed by bulk production of the local item to build up numbers and indigenous capability, and the local unit is usually more cost effective as well.
The Navy for instance imported an Israeli ESM suite for some of its ships, then switched to Ellora when it cleared trials. Right now, we have chosen limited numbers of German towed array sonar, including licensed assembly. But the ALTAS is in user trials and reportedly doing well at detecting submarine targets & if it clears them will become the bulk unit. The IAF imported 4 squadrons of SpyDer without phasing out the SA-8, as an interim capability ahead of the Akash, once the Akash cleared trials, 8 squadrons were ordered and 7 more are in negotiation. Many more such examples.

[Karan M]

FPA is from Sofradir. The only real local FPA capable of being used in current gen TI products is from an IIT project but has yet to be mass manufactured or ordered, and is more suitable for conventional NV optics.

Tonbo et al dont do FPAs, they license assemble commercially available electronics and FPAs with their secret sauce image processing and combine that with their own precision manufactured optics (though even some of that may be imported from Zeiss et al)

Will take your word on the subject.

Here's a report on the IIT program
https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/mu ... 460017.ece

What's positive is the focus on fabrication.

[kit]

"Developed in India?'" Another programme like Trishul or does it mean local productikn of the remaining systems?
How many varied systems can a service handle?

However, with the success of Astra, as has bee done elsewhere, the same missile could bd developed into an SR SAM system.

The Navy and AF have both adopted a policy of dual sourcing from quite some time now, which clearly you haven't noticed.
The initial systems are imports followed by bulk production of the local item to build up numbers and indigenous capability, and the local unit is usually more cost effective as well.
The Navy for instance imported an Israeli ESM suite for some of its ships, then switched to Ellora when it cleared trials. Right now, we have chosen limited numbers of German towed array sonar, including licensed assembly. But the ALTAS is in user trials and reportedly doing well at detecting submarine targets & if it clears them will become the bulk unit. The IAF imported 4 squadrons of SpyDer without phasing out the SA-8, as an interim capability ahead of the Akash, once the Akash cleared trials, 8 squadrons were ordered and 7 more are in negotiation. Many more such examples.

Same as China does..but we do better with indigenous solutions and no clones

[manjgu]

whats wrong with clones ?? and i dont see too many indigenous solution for all the noise. Beg borrow steal is the chinese mantra and it works. they have not let their domestic R&D suffer any time.. and they are focussed on exports and indegenous solutions. Not like our system which seem forever in trials till some foreign maal is selected !

[Trikaal]

^My english isn't that good. What part of beg, borrow, steal means buy foreign maal every time?

[Philip]

Have noticed but the report about locally "developed" balance systems makes it unclear whether they're going to be licence manufactured or an entirely new sysyem.Astra offers a good tri-service opportunity of a SAM system since it has been virtually cleared for the IAF.
Being smaller than Akash it would be easier to fit onto naval vessels.

[AdityaM]

When a missile is launched, whether big or small, how far away do the soldiers have to stand to keep safe; safe from the heat, risk of explosion and from the poisonous fumes

Do the missile launcher soldiers jwear breathing mask to deal with the large plumes of smoke. The thick smoke would take time to clear.

[prasannasimha]

^ It depends on the missile

[AdityaM]

In all these years at BRF, don’t recall ever coming across any mention of the operating procedures when it comes to people manning missiles-Be it ballistic or cruise.

[Karan M]

whats wrong with clones ??

If you don't know "why" and "how" and merely clone, product improvements are but limited at best.

and i dont see too many indigenous solution for all the noise.

Then you haven't been looking. Pretty much all the AF's GBAD radar network has been indigenized, as has the strategic and tactical ESM/ELINT network. We no longer need to depend purely on imports. In the Navy, the IN has moved to local sonars & EW for a long time. Many success stories but happening without any fuss, because of the usual negative perception attached to anything Indian and the politics against the current Govt. Can't be given any credit for Make in India etc.

Beg borrow steal is the chinese mantra and it works. they have not let their domestic R&D suffer any time..

Its also a function of available funds. As our economy picks up, expect more funds available for R&D, even at a constant 6% of the defence budget.

and they are focussed on exports and indegenous solutions. Not like our system which seem forever in trials till some foreign maal is selected !

Not always. ALH, locally made electronics platforms, Pinaka, Akash etc are big success stories. As will be ATAGS, Astra etc, its but a matter of time.

[Karan M]

The Navy and AF have both adopted a policy of dual sourcing from quite some time now, which clearly you haven't noticed.
The initial systems are imports followed by bulk production of the local item to build up numbers and indigenous capability, and the local unit is usually more cost effective as well.
The Navy for instance imported an Israeli ESM suite for some of its ships, then switched to Ellora when it cleared trials. Right now, we have chosen limited numbers of German towed array sonar, including licensed assembly. But the ALTAS is in user trials and reportedly doing well at detecting submarine targets & if it clears them will become the bulk unit. The IAF imported 4 squadrons of SpyDer without phasing out the SA-8, as an interim capability ahead of the Akash, once the Akash cleared trials, 8 squadrons were ordered and 7 more are in negotiation. Many more such examples.

Same as China does..but we do better with indigenous solutions and no clones

There is truth in this, in that we are not mindlessly cloning. Over time, this approach pays off. In the short term, for rapid deployment, the PRC approach seems attractive.

[manjgu]

Karan M... a) the chinese have not stopped at clones ..parallel R&D has continued... clones are good at making the numbers and being prepared. Chinese have invested heavily in R&D supplemented by industrial spying. b) your list of things which have been indigenised is impressive but as a % of our total budget still miniscule. c) yes ofc its about funds but also the kickbacks in foreign buying which stops local R&D

[John]

It will likely be Vl-MICA.

All depends on whether Make in India or Made in India for the 10 units. If Indian design and developed then wont be the Mica. If its merely to be assembled here.. err.. made here, then VL Mica it could be for the whole deal.

I strongly believe it is Vl Mica I am not a fan of it. Barak-8 IMO is designed to cover both short and medium/long range intercepts. We should develop a point defense SAM system similar to RAM. Anyway looking at the order looks like P-28 will get them first followed by P-17As and 2nd batch of Talwar class.

[Philip]

A titbit in Vayu says that the 4-cell inclined launcher for BMos has been developed and tested and ready for fitment onto warships.One presumes that the first 3 Delhis whose Urans are being pensioned of will get these inclined quad packs.Only Q whether 2 or 4 packs can be fitted onto these DDGs.Looking at the pics of the DDGs, it may be poss. to fit 4 quad packs.Perhaps even the 3 B class FFGs could get their 16 Urans replaced with 2 quad pack more lethal BMos.

[Aditya_V]

A titbit in Vayu says that the 4-cell inclined launcher for BMos has been developed and tested and ready for fitment onto warships.One presumes that the first 3 Delhis whose Urans are being pensioned of will get these inclined quad packs.Only Q whether 2 or 4 packs can be fitted onto these DDGs.Looking at the pics of the DDGs, it may be poss. to fit 4 quad packs.Perhaps even the 3 B class FFGs could get their 16 Urans replaced with 2 quad pack more lethal BMos.

If we can get some 2000 tonne corvette with these they can provide numbers for platforms

[Karan M]

Karan M... a) the chinese have not stopped at clones ..parallel R&D has continued... clones are good at making the numbers and being prepared. Chinese have invested heavily in R&D supplemented by industrial spying.

True, but then it boils down to two things.

A) PRC genuinely believes rule of law is a joke, and might makes right and does everything in its power to get things its way. Part of it has been aided by west's wink nod nudge and PRCs (as a result) growing economy, but as we can see now, it also means growing pushback. The era of easy TOT disguised as commercial assistance is IMHO over as west has woken up to see how its technology was procured for a song and dance, legally and illegally.

B ) China is much bigger than India economically so can afford such approaches. India is getting there but we still can't afford such wasteful approaches like making multiple fighter programs (some of which are thoroughly obsolete), having PSU old style multiple factories in different parts of the country churning out items en masse, also engaging in massive R&D expenditure (blank cheque approach) plus buying from abroad and at the same time cloning the partners stuff and buying them off with more purchases.

We have to prioritize and be more efficient, we are by no means perfect but things are definitely better now. For instance, improving Su-30 serviceability than bankrupting AF Capex budget buying another European super fighter en masse to make up for fewer flying Su-30s. Asking private sector to step up for IA eqpt maintenance rather than just dumping money into OFB unions. Stuff like this is happening, albeit much later than it should have, but if the tempo keeps up, we will be in a better place.

b) your list of things which have been indigenised is impressive but as a % of our total budget still miniscule.

I don't think this is accurate, because if we had not indigenized, then our budget would have ballooned many times over. For instance, how many millions of $ would have 7 Akash squadron equivalents (say NASAMs) cost, plus the 100 odd radars IAF is inducting of Indian origin, let alone all the other gizmos.
This is the cost really saved by buying Indian.

What it also means is more money is saved for truly necessary silver bullet imports. For instance, instead of spending all its scarce capex on buying everything from boots for Garuds to laser designators to ground based radars, IAF can now spend its money on really scarce technology not available locally, stuff like Meteor missiles or some fancy recce pods with multi-spectral imaging.

But it also means the % import by value will remain high for many years to come, since we really can't (and shouldn't) build everything inhouse from day 1, and what we should actually see is % import by items. That will give us a more meaningful benchmark for indigenization.

c) yes ofc its about funds but also the kickbacks in foreign buying which stops local R&D

True, but I think under current GOI this has reduced by leaps and bounds. But corruption in India is like water, it finds a way, and it has already damaged our institutions and delayed programs greatly.

[John]

If we can get some 2000 tonne corvette with these they can provide numbers for platforms

Problem is that what starts out a simple missile or ASW corvette quickly balloons in size as more reqs are added i.e: hanger, speed, endurance, reduction to radar cross section. And we end with heavy corvette (P-28) which costs as much as a Frigate while carrying less armament and sensors than a FFG. Hopefully they keep req simple for NGMV but looking at the tenders i see a repeat of P-28 IMHO.

[nam]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UboMbcyluvg

Tor mkm on a Tata truck. Was there a rfp for this system? The acceleration on the missile is phenomenal.

[John]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UboMbcyluvg

Tor mkm on a Tata truck. Was there a rfp for this system? The acceleration on the missile is phenomenal.

Orginally Talwar class (at the time proposal was called Delta class FFG not to be confused Singapore Formidable class) was supposed to have Sa-n-9 but Russians refused and compromised on Shtil even though Navy wanted a VLS SAM system. But ironically they sold tech to China for lot of money under the table.

[Rishi_Tri]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UboMbcyluvg

Tor mkm on a Tata truck. Was there a rfp for this system? The acceleration on the missile is phenomenal.

Does it mean that the system is already in India or were the Russians using Tata Chasis? And did the TOR destroy OSA AK missiles?

[Indranil]

All S2A missiles, especially those with shorter range have to have very fast acceleration. Somewhat like a Diwali rocket.

[Philip]

I think there was an RFP for a 700t+ missile corvette.Western and Ru OEMs approached. This is a little larger than our erstwhile Nanuchka/ Durg class corvettes all pensioned off.One could expect each to carry 2 quad packs of BMos along with a package of anti- missile and ASW weaponry.

[Rakesh]

Saurav Jha reporting that the US is offering Tomahawks to India. He is not one for hyperbole, so I need to ask google chacha. Has anyone else heard anything?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1034382780195426304 --> There is no need to buy tomahawks at all when the Nirbhay programme is well underway and DRDO is developing a new submarine launched cruise missile anyway.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1034388131833819136 ---> And BTW, given that the Navy wants to indigenize the 'fight' component of its platforms at the earliest, where is the question of procuring tomahawks when India's own subsonic cruise missile programmes are maturing?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1034388930043371520 ---> Any offer of tomahawks from the American side will be very much in keeping with their standard practice of offering a legacy system when Indian efforts in the same class of weaponry are bearing fruit. New Delhi must not fall for this.