Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Mar 2018 19:15

nam wrote:
There might be technical issues, however if they overcome it, I think it is a interesting idea. They would probably attach Chobham fuel probes. I don't know if they plan to install fuel tanks in the cargo bay or if it is feasible.

I think this was earlier posted here

http://idrw.org/now-israel-jumps-into-i ... anker-war/

Reconfigured 767-300ER can also be used to transport 200 soldiers or 60tonnes of cargo when required by the customer . according to Bedek Aviation Reconfigured 767-300ER is 15-20% cheaper than other alternatives, while delivering the same level of performance and operational requirements for the customers, like its alternatives.

India already has been offered Airbus’s A330 multi-role tanker transport, which has been twice rejected due to high procurement cost, while Boeing is now ready to offer its KC-46 multi-role tanker transport aircraft but it wants it through U.S. Department of Defense’s Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program and not through the Tender process. Russian offer of Il-78M-90A Aerial Tankers has been rejected by Indian Air force due to its low operational availability issues which are usually associated with all Russian Ilyusin-76/78 aircraft type operated in IAF fleet.

Boeing and Bedek Aviation both use Boeing 767-200ER aircraft has base aircraft to develop military aerial refuelling and strategic military transport aircraft but since Bedek Aviation uses a refurbished 767-200ER instead of a new one, procurement cost comes down significantly, while operational cost practically remains the same and similar converted 767 MMTT tanker has been successfully sold to countries like Colombia and Brazil.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 02 Mar 2018 19:53

Katare wrote:“We are weighing the possibility of giving it to a nearby country as a diplomatic gesture. Let us see if it works out,” Christopher says.

This is fking incredibly stupid.

Not really. What makes the difference is the embedded signal processing software and the moving clutter maps (at a given resolution) data. It will prove the robustness of the platform and radar availability time.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 02 Mar 2018 20:02

Cybaru wrote:Giving it to Nepal, lets us see 200 kms closer. I presume IAF will have staff for every flight and will man it for them under their colors.

Giving it to Afghanistan and flying it under their banner also serves the same purpose.

Straight out of USAF 1980s SOP! sign 4 letter treaties and staff em with IAF.

Exactly.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 02 Mar 2018 20:25

If they are paying for it (lease or purchase) then I expect one of Bahrain, Singapore, Qatar to get the last one - in that order of probability.

Otherwise. I'd not trust anyone but Bhutan with it.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 02 Mar 2018 22:17

A number of countries like Vietnam come to mind but with IAF advisors.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2018 23:13

Mort Walker wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Giving it to Nepal, lets us see 200 kms closer. I presume IAF will have staff for every flight and will man it for them under their colors.

Giving it to Afghanistan and flying it under their banner also serves the same purpose.

Straight out of USAF 1980s SOP! sign 4 letter treaties and staff em with IAF.
Exactly.

Exactly is the correct term to describe Cy-ji's post. Gift more platforms, in the above manner described, to "friendly" countries.

kit · Post by **kit** » 02 Mar 2018 23:28

Gifting to Mongolia seems like the way to go

.. i would station them at an airbase at their far east

..Beijing here we come

kit · Post by **kit** » 02 Mar 2018 23:32

Singha wrote:awacs refueling its own escorts is a nice idea. it could even help stragglers from recovering strike pkgs who burned lot of fuel in escaping, top them off and send them home.

would love to see a pic of the A330 tanker/AWACS refuelling the LCA Mark 2s and sending them off into the fight .. much like a mothership

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Mar 2018 01:34

Rakesh wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
Exactly.
Exactly is the correct term to describe Cy-ji's post. Gift more platforms, in the above manner described, to "friendly" countries.

Oh my god, please no ji!

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Mar 2018 03:54

kit wrote:Gifting to Mongolia seems like the way to go .. i would station them at an airbase at their far east ..Beijing here we come

Quickly, call the resident Mongolian. ..

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 03 Mar 2018 20:00

We should also consider the IL-96 as a possible AWACS / Refueler option
Or consider joining the China-Russian wide bodied airliner in development

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Mar 2018 22:15

I can't believe that we are talking of gifting AEW&Cs when we hardly have any for ourselves!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2018 22:21

the IL80 aimak national emergency command post
note the refueling probe leading off to wing roots
no windows for better EMP hardening.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2018 22:22

the pods are electrical generators. it also has spool of cable to reel out for talking to submarines as a long vlf antenna

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2018 22:28

a complex tableau of support a/c including perhaps B2 as planB for bin laden raid
the E6 is a aimak type command post for non-POTUS higher ups and SAC officers to direct upto nuclear strikes
it can kind of take over if the potus E4 is unreachable

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 04 Mar 2018 11:39

The friendly countries could be UAE or Vietnam.

I think there was some reports about UAE.

srin · Post by **srin** » 04 Mar 2018 12:42

Indranil wrote:I can't believe that we are talking of gifting AEW&Cs when we hardly have any for ourselves!

I've always felt that we should have ordered atleast half a dozen more, giving our AWACS project breathing time, and IAF a "good enough" option in the meantime.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 04 Mar 2018 14:34

Katare wrote:“We are weighing the possibility of giving it to a nearby country as a diplomatic gesture. Let us see if it works out,” Christopher says.

This is fking incredibly stupid.

Well that does mean more EMB platforms are going to be ordered.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Mar 2018 18:34

Indranil wrote:I can't believe that we are talking of gifting AEW&Cs when we hardly have any for ourselves!

IR, the gift is only a ruse. We are not "gifting" anything

More like loaning and even that to be manned by IAF personnel onlee.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 Mar 2018 19:59

It has to be Vietnam, to help the Vietnamese Navy to protect its borders from smugglers, poachers etc in the South China Sea

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Mar 2018 21:10

Pirate fleets like the ones operating off the African coadt which is the excuse the Chins are sending their warships and subs there, India could do the very same in the Indo- China Sea too!

Check though whether it may go to a friendly nation or " neighbour". Makes a big difference.I can think of Afghanistan, Lanka or BDesh.Perhaps stretching the "neighbourhood", Mauritius or the Seychelles.Local protests in the Seychelles about our modest planned facility at Assumption island may have strong Chin sponsor, as they're doing in Lanka to sabotage our oil tank farm agreements and running of Mattala airport near Htota.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 04 Mar 2018 21:39

Netra is useless against that maritime role but perhaps better for tracking flights to the reclaimed islands. Instead a P-8I or some UAVs will do enough to cause some heartburn to PLAN.

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Mar 2018 21:43

Cybaru wrote:
Katare wrote:“We are weighing the possibility of giving it to a nearby country as a diplomatic gesture. Let us see if it works out,” Christopher says.

This is fking incredibly stupid.
Well that does mean more EMB platforms are going to be ordered.

Why is the DRDO chief “weighing” with what amounts to a diplomatic and geo-strategic decision? I don’t quite trust this Christopher fellow. Far too talkative.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 Mar 2018 22:27

Maybe it is for Afghanistan, to defend against the, the uh, Taliban air force

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 05 Mar 2018 00:28

Gagan wrote:Maybe it is for Afghanistan, to defend against the, the uh, Taliban air force

Who cares what the ruse is, get it there..

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 08 May 2018 23:41

No news on AEW&C for a long time!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Aug 2018 03:14

Chapati getting ready for installation on rooftop facility.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Aug 2018 10:30

JTull wrote:Netra is useless against that maritime role but perhaps better for tracking flights to the reclaimed islands. Instead a P-8I or some UAVs will do enough to cause some heartburn to PLAN.

AEW and AWACS can also detect enemy Naval ships and Cruise Missiles from long range, it is useless for detecting submerged submarines.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Aug 2018 10:35

JTull wrote:Netra is useless against that maritime role but perhaps better for tracking flights to the reclaimed islands. Instead a P-8I or some UAVs will do enough to cause some heartburn to PLAN.

Netra had a ship tracking role too.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 28 Aug 2018 12:00

Indranil wrote:Chapati getting ready for installation on rooftop facility.

didnt catch enough attention it deserves, i suppose this is for testing only. I suppose chapati will see some belan on the chakla before it gets to tawa and then amongst the hungry wolves.
still 2-3 years away before the fast is broken?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Aug 2018 17:24

Indranil wrote:Chapati getting ready for installation on rooftop facility.

Any news about the platform?

chola · Post by **chola** » 30 Aug 2018 07:51

Not really the news we want ...

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2018/ ... ramme.html

How a CAG report exposed DRDO's mishandling of AEW&CS programme
The CAG report showed irregularities in the selection of aircraft for the programme

By Pradip R Sagar
August 29, 2018 23:38 IST

...

The CAG’s observations draw strength from the ongoing CBI investigation into alleged kickbacks in the process of selecting the aircraft. The Embraer EMB-145 aircraft from Brazil was shortlisted for the project in 2007. However, Brazilian media reported that Indian officials were bribed to swing the deal in Embraer’s favour. In 2016, the CBI registered a case against NRI arms dealer Vipin Khanna and two private companies based abroad. The case was about the alleged payment of more than $5.70 million as kickbacks to seal the deal for the aircraft.

...

During the design and development stage, some operational parameters were compromised because of the Embraer’s limitations. Also, there was no competitive bidding while selecting the aircraft. The Embraer was shortlisted through a nomination. Notably, several aircraft, such as the IL-76, and models from Gulfstream, Bombardier and Boeing were available at the time.

“The justification given for the selection of EMB-145 was not tenable,” the CAG observed. “No objective assessment of the merits and demerits of available options was done. The selection of EMB-145 was arbitrary and based on preconceived preference.”

Initial operational requirements stipulated that the system should be able to operate from high-altitude locations like Leh to have a much deeper view into the Chinese army’s activities. As the EMB-145 was incapable of doing so, claims the report, the Air Force had to drop this requirement in February 2006.

...

Of the 18 requirements specified by the Air Force, AEW&CS could not fully achieve ten important ones. Despite this, the Air Force accepted the first system in February 2017.

“Since EMB-145 was selected, the weight of the mission system had to be adjusted to the optimum payload capacity of EMB-145, which was 3,000kg. The radar along with its associated systems, which was to be mounted on the fuselage, had to be limited to 1,500 kilos due to structural limitations,” the CAG said.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 30 Aug 2018 09:31

Post deleted

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Aug 2018 19:49

Augusta Westland helicopters deal is still under investigation. Also harks back to UPA days.

Behind all this are Congress hands.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Aug 2018 20:01

>>models from Gulfstream, Bombardier and Boeing

uh thanks but no thanks. we would not want american moodiness to affect the development of a vital system. plus americans are so flush with huge domestic orders why would they care to even work for a piddly indian order of max 10 units. the israeli gulfstream/UK astor conversions use side / ventral mounted radar panels not the roof balance beam system. sweden has ereyie on EMB platforms (for greece and brazil) and saab340 (for the TSPians) so its proven.

it was the least risky and proven option for the radar we had.

nam · Post by **nam** » 30 Aug 2018 20:04

Initial operational requirements stipulated that the system should be able to operate from high-altitude locations like Leh to have a much deeper view into the Chinese army’s activities. As the EMB-145 was incapable of doing so, claims the report, the Air Force had to drop this requirement in February 2006.

May be I am missing something, but why do you need to fly from Leh to monitor LAC?

IAF obviously would have compromised some of the requiremnt, as it desperately needs AWACS. For our first attempt it is a pretty good outcome.

Moreover, IAF requirements would have been based on Phalcon. Longer range means higher power requirement, means heaver equipment, means beyond EMB-145's payload capacity.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Aug 2018 20:41

on the one hand users want a agile rapid prototying, spiral capabilities insertion approach to rival that of LM & raytheon titans, but at indian cost, and a raja harischandra type paper trail for CYA and global tendering

bzzzt fail! you want stuff fast in POC mode, with multiple risks, have to deploy the A-team and cut red tape to succeed. thats why skunk and phantom works are titans. they document precisely what they need to but no fluff and pptx pushing. SR71 and B2 would not happen via "global tender" , they reach into the bin and use what is available like f-16 parts not reinvent the wheel.

EMB145 has paved the way for whatever "yamato class" battlewagon AWACS they want. I wish same had been the case for kaveri, with a simpler large turbojet paving the path.... my spies in LRDE tell me that radar at full power can poach an egg on Dileep saar's tawa while orbiting above Bengaluru, kerala.

lets not waste any time debating such nonsense points. aag lagi hui hai ghar mein and they want a signed form in triplicate to submit the fire station for help.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 31 Aug 2018 09:12

@Mod
Would you mind clarifying which part of my post was baseless insinuation? My insinuations were drawn from the quoted report that Airforce dropped requirements that Embraer couldn't fulfill.

enaiel · Post by **enaiel** » 11 Sep 2018 00:08

Maybe Netra can be handed over to IN for 24 hour coastal surveillance for:
1. Detection of small air and water craft to prevent future Mumbai style attacks.
2. Detection of drones and cruise missiles.
3. Range support during missile tests and ISRO rocket launches similar to https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... gulfstream

Karan M wrote:
JTull wrote:Netra is useless against that maritime role but perhaps better for tracking flights to the reclaimed islands. Instead a P-8I or some UAVs will do enough to cause some heartburn to PLAN.
Netra had a ship tracking role too.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 13 Sep 2018 00:54

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 761377.cms
Government may clear purchase of two more AWACS for around $800 million

NEW DELHI: India is finally back on track to acquire two more airborne warning and control systems (AWACS), which are potent force-multipliers as “eyes in the sky”, for around $800 million in a tripartite venture with Israel and Russia after price wrangling kept the acquisition derailed for several years.

<snip>

This project has been hanging fire since the first three such Phalcon AWACS were inducted by the IAF in 2009-2011 under a $1.1 billion deal inked by India, Israel and Russia in 2004. “The finance ministry had earlier objected to the sharp price hike being demanded by Russia. But a good deal has been achieved now,” said a source.

Not bad!
$1.1 Billion for 3
$800 million for 2 after about 14 years.