Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

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Amber G.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Amber G. »

This recent discussion brought me a thought - The space record (see discussion above wrt to Sagan) with greetings in hundreds of languages spoken is on the way to other star systems. Greetings in Rajasthani (spoken) is some thing like .."Ram Ram pahunche.. ham sabhi athe kushi ho, tum vahan kushi raho".
("Ram, Ram (Greetings). We are happy here, and you be happy there" :) )

I wonder would "Ram" as a form of greeting cause some discussion among media now?
(Sagan was a little amused as various other greetings talked of peace, invites, and grand plans - Rajasthani greeting was short and sweet)
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Amber G. »

Katare wrote:Amber, great experience. I have have heard/read that the whole disk was put togather by Carl Sagan in 6 weeks.
Yes! The idea of "disk/record" was added *much* later in the project. So things had to move incredibly fast and budget was very low. As said, whole greetings business was done by international students (or their families).. Prof Khare was responsible to get the indian community to cover all the Indian languages used there. (regretfully not all the languages were covered but consulate/UN etc would not help). The child's voice in Neshant's clip above is Carl Sagan's son. The cover design - line drawing of human couple was done by Sagan's wife.... most of the technical help was provided by Cornell (and not professional actors/Nasa etc)... The indian music (a Krisna bhajan by Kesar Bai) is copied from a record which was purchased from a grocery store in NYC.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by ramana »

Jackson Heights?
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Amber G. »

ramana wrote:Jackson Heights?
No, an Indian store (appliance) on Lexington Ave in Manhattan's little India. Indian stores in Jackson Heights opened a little later or were just becoming popular then IIRC.

Interesting up to late 60's there was ONLY one store (Kalustian) at Lexington Ave in the whole East Cost. which sold Indian stuff. (Desi's in whole New York state used to go there to buy masala etc.).. within short time there were hundreds..and stores in Queens/Jackson Heights made the original 'little India' less important. :)
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by ArjunPandit »

Kakarat wrote:#ISROMissions
Hot test of #GSLV-F11 Cryogenic engine completed successfully on Aug 27 at ISRO Propulsion Complex, Mahendragiri, TN. The test was carried out for 200 secs. All propulsion parameters found satisfactory.
I was wondering about how much is 200 sec and found out this info

1. Cryogenic Upper Stage (CUS) for GSLV MkIII on February 17, 2017, for a flight duration of 640 seconds
2. C25 Stage had earlier been tested successfully for 50 seconds on January 25, 2017 to validate all the systems.
3. This one was for 200 secs, somewhere in the middle
4. Wiki baby search had the following info
Stage 1 Burn time: 100 s
Stage 2 Burn time: 139s
So effectively it would be full stage 1 & 85% of stage 2
A movie on the space mission would be TFTA
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Kakarat »

ArjunPandit wrote:
Kakarat wrote:#ISROMissions
Hot test of #GSLV-F11 Cryogenic engine completed successfully on Aug 27 at ISRO Propulsion Complex, Mahendragiri, TN. The test was carried out for 200 secs. All propulsion parameters found satisfactory.
I was wondering about how much is 200 sec and found out this info

1. Cryogenic Upper Stage (CUS) for GSLV MkIII on February 17, 2017, for a flight duration of 640 seconds
2. C25 Stage had earlier been tested successfully for 50 seconds on January 25, 2017 to validate all the systems.
3. This one was for 200 secs, somewhere in the middle
4. Wiki baby search had the following info
Stage 1 Burn time: 100 s
Stage 2 Burn time: 139s
So effectively it would be full stage 1 & 85% of stage 2
A movie on the space mission would be TFTA
This the the upper stage of GSLV MK-II and not MK-III. Its a CE7.5 engine and C12/15 stage and the burn time of the stage is about 720 sec
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Karan M »

Guys - some of y'all, despite multiple moderator statements, you are dragging in irrelevant topics into a focused discussion on the Indian space program.

I have edited your statements and NOT given a warning so that you may return to a more focused discussion and stop counter replying. But please stop, so we dont have to hand out warnings.

Instead please focus on the more fact based debate or actual topic related discussion which you were doing in parallel and also getting caught up in this irrelevant sidetrack.

If anyone does this sidetrack, then flag the mods to deal with it, dont try to deal with it via counter replies.

Thanks!
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Ashokk »

Isro to launch 19 missions in just 7 months from September 15
Image

NEW DELHI: After a lull of five months, Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) is gearing up for a flurry of space activities from September as it will conduct 19 launches, including the Chandrayaan-2 mission, in just seven months.

Isro chairman K Sivan told TOI, “We are going to conduct 19 missions, including 10 satellites and nine launch vehicles, between September and March. For Isro, this will be the highest density period for launches as never before we had launched two satellites within 30 days consecutively for months.

We will resume our services on September 15 with the PSLV C42 mission, which will totally be a commercial launch.” PSLV C42 will carry UK satellites — Novasar and S1-4 — as the main payload.

In October, Isro will launch GSLV MkIII-D2, also known as ‘bahubali’. This will be the second launch of Isro’s most powerful rocket with 4-tonne lifting capability. The rocket will lift off with GSAT-29 satellite with multi-beam and optical communication payloads, which will help bridge the digital divide in rural regions.

In October itself, another launch of PSLV C43 is scheduled that will carry HySIS or hyperspectral imaging satellite. The satellite is set to add teeth to the way India is gleaned from 630 km altitude as it will enable the country to see in 55 spectral or colour bands.

In November too, Isro will launch two satellites. GSLV F11 will launch GSAT-7A, a satellite dedicated for the IAF, which will help the force interlink their bases, ground radar stations and AWACS aircraft. Thereafter, Isro will launch 5.6 tonne GSAT-11, its heaviest satellite ever made, from French Guiana on November 30. The satellite came into limelight when it was recalled in April from Arianespace to look for any possible anomaly. In December, Isro’s PSLV C44 will launch Emisat. The same month Isro will launch GSAT-31 from French Guiana. This communication satellite will be a replacement for Insat 4CR.

Isro will usher in next year with the launch of its highly ambitious Chandrayaan-2 mission. The launch window will be from January 3 to February 16. Israel, too, is launching its moon mission around the same time. It will be a neck-and-neck race between the two to become the fourth country in the world after Russia, US and China to do a soft-landing on the lunar surface. In January itself, Isro’s PSLV C45 rocket will carry a remote sensing satellite Risat-2B.

In February, PSLV C46 will launch two satellites — Cartosat-3, a remote sensing satellite, and NEMO AM, the next-generation earth monitoring and observation-aerosol monitoring satellite. In March, Isro plans to launch another reconnaissance satellite Risat-2BR1. Risat-2B, Cartosat-3 and Risat-2BR1 will increase the surveillance capabilities of the country.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by disha »

^^Are we so smitten by ‘furrin nations’ that we bring their itsy-bitsy effort & call it a ‘race’ when our nation is trying out something very very remarkable!
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Ashokk »

Isro plans its first overseas ground base at North Pole
BENGALURU: Two years after China opened a ground station at the North Pole, the Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) plans to set up its first overseas ground station there, primarily to augment the Indian Remote Sensing (IRS) operations crucial not just for civilian needs like disaster management but also for the armed forces.

Isro has a full-fledged IRS programme with a constellation of earth observation satellites, with the National Remote Sensing Centre (NRSC), Hyderabad managing data acquisition and processing, data dissemination, aerial remote sensing and decision support for disaster management.

“The plan will take some time to materialise as it involves huge logistical challenges, international approvals and co-operation,” a scientist said, adding that any hardware installation is a complex task and challenges are tougher given the extreme weather conditions.

Another scientist explained that with advancements in high-resolution satellite programmes, the complexity and role of ground stations have increased multifold. “This ground station will provide an opportunity to download complete data within the same orbit and enable use of onboard resources in every orbit,” he added.

The agency, which was supposed to establish a second data reception antenna at Antarctica Ground Station for Earth Observation Satellites (AGEOS) this year, will now do it next year. “The proposal was to set up a second data reception antenna system to support reception from two specific projects immediately and future ones later,” scientists said.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by SaiK »

well.. surely it can be dual use - especially, if we need to track mid-course flight.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Trikaal »

SaiK wrote:well.. surely it can be dual use - especially, if we need to track mid-course flight.
Can it be for China? I think any point in China will be closer to India than North Pole.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by PratikDas »

If I understand correctly, the poles are where the multitude of satellites in polar orbit are most likely to collide despite systematic attempts to prevent collisions.
http://www.duncansteel.com/archives/1515
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by kit »

What exactly does the hyperspectral satellite do ?? Is it some kind of early warning satellite for defence if so it should be in Geostationary orbit ?
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by SaiK »

Nice pic

The crew escape module on display at the @SpaceExpoIndia show in Bangalore. @isro has put up a separate pavilion dedicated to #Gaganyaan at the expo. https://t.co/TsnSZlusCf
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by A Nandy »

50 to 60 SSLV is required. We don't want to spend our energies on this. Via Antrix we want industry to come in a big way.

Small satellite business is growing. 1100 satellites predicted in LEO. To catch up with the small sat market we need industry support in a big way. SSLV integration will happen on 72 hours.

Gaganyaan - industry will play a key role. It is a challenge for us since the payload will be humans. We will focus next 4 years on HSP. Industry must come together and help us.

France offers space medicine and other critical life support for @isro #Gaganyaan mission. A MoU in this regard likely to be inked during @SpaceExpoIndia
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Haridas »

kit wrote:What exactly does the hyperspectral satellite do ?? Is it some kind of early warning satellite for defence if so it should be in Geostationary orbit ?
Instead of identifying a thing by shape, that requires optical resolution to gather enough pixels AND good contrast against background (at limits of optical resolution due to optics and or dynamic abbration, say due to atmospheric thermals), hyperspectral allows a single pixle (with hyper spectral sensing) to identify the spectrem is result of a pre known object of qty x, and one or more other pre known object withe respective qty, where thousands of pre known components with respective spectral signature are tagged.

For example a SU30 with IRST has fixed small optical aperture, that limits it's detection range to detect and classify a faroff aircraft even in clear weather due optical resolution maxing out. OR detecting ground targets that are camouflaged. Hyperspectral techniques allows determining on one pixle what collection iteams it is and how many.

Geostationary is good vantage point is inexpensive to watch a fixed portion of earth, problem is resoltion. Not everyone can afford to have a school bus sized Keyhole satellite style telescope, even then the field of view (area cover by one image) is so narrow that detecting a change will take a v long time to scan the whole area of interest. So with hyperspectral on can easily detect 5 planes took off from a runway in Pune in real time, better ones can also tell if they were 2 Jaguars and 3 MKI, all this with optical resolution of telescope seeing it is say 30 meters.

Google for "blind source seperation".
Last edited by Haridas on 06 Sep 2018 12:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by kit »

Haridas wrote:
kit wrote:What exactly does the hyperspectral satellite do ?? Is it some kind of early warning satellite for defence if so it should be in Geostationary orbit ?
Instead of identifying a thing by shape, that requires optical resolution to gather enough pixels AND good contrast against background (at limits of optical resolution due to optics and or dynamic abbration, say due to atmospheric thermals), hyperspectral allows a single pixle (with hyper spectral sensing) to identify the spectrem is result of a pre known object of qty x, and one or more other pre known object withe respective qty, where thousands of pre known components with respective spectral signature are tagged.

For example a SU30 with IRST has fixed small optical aperture, that limits it's detection range to detect and classify a faroff aircraft even in clear weather due optical resolution maxing out. OR detecting ground targets that are camouflaged. Hyperspectral techniques allows determining on one pixle what collection iteams it is and how many.

Google for "blind source seperation".
Thank you !!..
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Ashokk »

Reliance Jio is using ISRO's bandwidth to connect to the rural and remote parts of India
NEW DELHI: Reliance Jio is planning to use satellites to connect to the rural and remote parts of India through its 4G LTE-based voice and data service. It is deploying a first-of-its kind satellite backhaul-based network, using capacity from Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), and technology from Hughes Communications (HCIL).

The Mukesh Ambani-led 4G telco is connecting more than 400 LTE sites which are beyond the reach of terrestrial backhaul services through this satellite backhaul-based network. The network is under different phases of deployment.

Jio has awarded a contract worth over $10 million to Hughes Communications (HCIL) to set up the satellite backhaul for the 4G network in these areas.

In India, most telcos, including Jio, use microwave largely to connect towers since laying fibre is tough due to high deployment costs and right of way (RoW) issues. In rural and remote parts, especially hilly areas and islands, using the microwave is even more challenging due to height, a difficult terrain and the huge investments involved, which is where the satellite-based network can fit in.

Jio group president Jyotindra Thacker said the telco is using Hughes’ Jupiter system to support its 4G sites. “The satellite system is key to enabling our vision of providing ubiquitous and seamless connectivity to each and every part of the country.”

Partho Banerjee, president, Hughes Communications India, said that satellite is the ideal technology for extending 4G/LTE service to remote and rural communities.

Telcos such as Bharat Sanchar Nigam Ltd., Vodafone Idea, and Bharti Airtel have been doing satellite backhauling to a small extent, albeit for 2G and 3G services, industry watchers said, adding that BSNL has the most satellite backhauling today for 2G and 3G.

“On 4G though, Jio is the innovator by far on satellite backhauling…they have taken a bulk capacity of two satellites of ISRO, and have taken our satellite technology which is meant for 4G services. Jio wanted a captive network of their own, and is the first in the industry to do this,” Shivaji Chatterjee, SVP & Head - Enterprise Business, Hughes Communications India, told ET.

Jio, in partnership with Hughes, is setting up two earth stations in Mumbai and Nagpur, and will set up two mini hubs in Leh and Port Blair for the latest satellite backhaul-based services that will provide connectivity in areas, especially in the North East, Jammu and Kashmir Uttaranchal, Andaman Nicobar, and Lakshadweep.

“The focus may be on remote and hilly and island areas, but also on remote areas in the mainland in Maharashtra, Orissa, Chhattisgarh, Karnataka, Himachal Pradesh,” Chatterjee explained.

Analysts said that satellite can't match microwave or fibre, but still provides more than enough capacity to offer bandwidth wherein each site can provide speeds between 10 Mbps and 30 Mbps.

Chatterjee said that the satellite platform being used by Jio offers certain kind of compression and acceleration natively for LTE traffic, providing 50% advantage in terms of bandwidth.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by kurup »

IIRC I have read somewhere that Indian Satellites also have Video tracking capability , just like Russians and Chinese demonstarted .

Does anybody have any source to prove it ??
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by rsingh »


What is the purpose of putting such exhibitions? just make the stuff and stick to the launch date. These technology demonstrators, integrated systems, successfully tested XYZ are of no use. Just make and stick to the date . Otherwise it is all big show-off. Giving false hope for the launch date and then taking 4 more year to complete the project. :-?
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by SSridhar »

rsingh, that is a very cynical view. Such exhibitions kindle interest in young minds. It certainly did when I was young.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by prasannasimha »

rsingh wrote:

What is the purpose of putting such exhibitions? just make the stuff and stick to the launch date. These technology demonstrators, integrated systems, successfully tested XYZ are of no use. Just make and stick to the date . Otherwise it is all big show-off. Giving false hope for the launch date and then taking 4 more year to complete the project. :-?
You do know that these expos are very popular and trigger enthusiasm in children. My Son did his aerospace engineering and was motivated by the outreach programs and competitions that ISRO conducts yearly . NASA has attracted bright talent buy doing these and whats wrong in ISRO trying to do this. Incidentally this expo has drubbed a lot of business too for Antrix.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by sudhan »

kurup wrote:IIRC I have read somewhere that Indian Satellites also have Video tracking capability , just like Russians and Chinese demonstarted .

Does anybody have any source to prove it ??
You mean video recording?

AFAIK, Cartosat-2C and above have video recording feature.

I dont think there are any official sources claiming so.

Of course, tons of reports claiming info from ISRO sources:

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... abilities/
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by kit »

rsingh wrote:
Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 4085316609

What is the purpose of putting such exhibitions? just make the stuff and stick to the launch date. These technology demonstrators, integrated systems, successfully tested XYZ are of no use. Just make and stick to the date . Otherwise it is all big show-off. Giving false hope for the launch date and then taking 4 more year to complete the project. :-?
all such "ads" are required in a country prone to false news and propaganda by vested interests
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by A Nandy »

There was a session held on the last day for students. Students got an opportunity to ask questions to the Project Director for the Human Spaceflight Programme V.R. Lalithambika and Dr Mohan Kumar of LPSC. It was a packed hall with students from many colleges. Lots of interesting questions were asked. The interest level has to be seen to be believed. Lot of comparisons with NASA and SpaceX too :P.

I wanted to ask about the status of the launch vehicle, GSLV Mk III but ran out of time :|

Lots of interest in astronomy and Astrosat too and they were answered very comprehensively by chief scientists from other ISRO centers.

Information session and recruitment pitch by Antrix too :) . Its now nearly a 2000 crore company and aiming for more with SSLV.

Apparently a Venus mission is in the works. A student also asked about whether vertical landing on legs or horizontal landing on runway is better. He was told that we should have both as they both have their advantages. When pressed for whether ISRO is working on something like that, he was told of course :wink:
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by SaiK »

I was just thinking while driving back home.. why would not be ISRO's first man mission be a docking mission to ISS? Is that too much?
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by kurup »

PSLV launch scheduled from Sep 16 to 18 .
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BAY OF BENGAL AND INDIAN OCEAN (.) CHARTS 32 33 313 356 INT 70 71 (.) PSLV
LAUNCH SCHEDULED FROM 16 – 18 SEP 18 FROM 1615 - 2015 UTC
2. DANGER ZONE AS FOLLOWS
ZONE -1: CIRCLE OF 10 NM FROM 13-43.9N 080-14.2E
ZONE–2: 12-05N 081-05E, 12-35N 081-35E, 11-50N 082-10E, 11-20N 081-40E
ZONE–3: 09-35N 082-45E, 09-35N 083-20E, 08-25N 083-20E, 08-25N 082-45E
ZONE–4: 00-00S 082-10E, 00-20S 083-30E, 04-05S 082-45E, 03-45S 081-25E
ZONE–5: 24-15S 077-25E, 24-55S 080-00E, 34-25S 078-00E, 33-45S 075-25E
3. CANCEL THIS MSG 182115 UTC SEP 18
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sudhan wrote:You mean video recording?

AFAIK, Cartosat-2C and above have video recording feature.

I dont think there are any official sources claiming so.

Of course, tons of reports claiming info from ISRO sources:

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... abilities/
Yes , I was looking for this .... Thanks for the link .... :)
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Trikaal »

SaiK wrote:I was just thinking while driving back home.. why would not be ISRO's first man mission be a docking mission to ISS? Is that too much?
I think we will need agreement and some sort of participation in the ISS program(read give them dollars) to be allowed to dock.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by arshyam »

rsingh wrote:What is the purpose of putting such exhibitions? just make the stuff and stick to the launch date. These technology demonstrators, integrated systems, successfully tested XYZ are of no use. Just make and stick to the date . Otherwise it is all big show-off. Giving false hope for the launch date and then taking 4 more year to complete the project. :-?
Then why even do this? After all, there is nothing new in this stuff as NASA and the Russians have done everything that needs to be done in this sphere.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by ashthor »

The deputy director of Indian Space Research Organization’s (ISRO) Space Application Centre (SAC) has said that
mobile phones in India could carry NavIC, a homegrown variant of the Global Positioning System (GPS), by early next
year. The comments came during a panel discussion at the Bengaluru Space Expo, 2018 which is underway in the
Karnataka capital.

...

While the roll-out of NavIC is expected early next year, it would not be mandatory for everyone to carry the system
as there is no law in force which would mandate the same. It has been noted that Russia has a regime in force whereby
mobiles in the country have to carry Glonass which is the Russian positional system.
More in the link below.

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/indias-na ... es-by-2019
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by rsingh »

arshyam wrote:
rsingh wrote:What is the purpose of putting such exhibitions? just make the stuff and stick to the launch date. These technology demonstrators, integrated systems, successfully tested XYZ are of no use. Just make and stick to the date . Otherwise it is all big show-off. Giving false hope for the launch date and then taking 4 more year to complete the project. :-?
Then why even do this? After all, there is nothing new in this stuff as NASA and the Russians have done everything that needs to be done in this sphere.
Don't do this.Read again. US,Russia did this for themselves. we have to do this for ourselves. But that is not the point. Point is ; make it, test it and use it and then display it. That is an achievement. Yes kids get inspired . I still have somewhere cuttings of Rohini etc. I am (and many others are) sick and tired of perpetual postponement of big projects. Get on the work and deliver within time frame instead of wasting time in discussing every nut and bolt with public before the big show.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by arshyam »

Did JFK announce the moon landing after it was done? His publicly declared target galvanized the US' popular imagination about space, and they haven't looked back since. Sometimes, countries need to do that.
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by prasannasimha »

rsingh wrote:
arshyam wrote: Then why even do this? After all, there is nothing new in this stuff as NASA and the Russians have done everything that needs to be done in this sphere.
Don't do this.Read again. US,Russia did this for themselves. we have to do this for ourselves. But that is not the point. Point is ; make it, test it and use it and then display it. That is an achievement. Yes kids get inspired . I still have somewhere cuttings of Rohini etc. I am (and many others are) sick and tired of perpetual postponement of big projects. Get on the work and deliver within time frame instead of wasting time in discussing every nut and bolt with public before the big show.
Do you think that they are all sitting there twiddling their thumbs ?
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Indranil »

Are you guys kidding? These exhibitions is where children and undergraduate students get interested; where they start asking questions; get inspired to build something as cool (or cooler).
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Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Theeran »

rsingh wrote: Don't do this.Read again. US,Russia did this for themselves. we have to do this for ourselves. But that is not the point. Point is ; make it, test it and use it and then display it. That is an achievement. Yes kids get inspired . I still have somewhere cuttings of Rohini etc. I am (and many others are) sick and tired of perpetual postponement of big projects. Get on the work and deliver within time frame instead of wasting time in discussing every nut and bolt with public before the big show.
So if I understand right, ISRO is all one guy building the rockets, satellites while also doing the marketing, brochures, exhibitions and so on. Makes absolute sense that guy needs to focus on the rockets. No wonder we have a few failures from the past few years.
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