Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Sep 2018 07:23

Instead of ordering, go for the commitment/pledge drive - 10 aircrafts per year, is given! Q: can we do it? /assume tranches, request for change, new features are all part and parcel of say a decade plan.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 20 Sep 2018 10:21

Indranil wrote:I cannot. This is a public forum. It is not just me. Many here (in the know) are keeping their mouth shut.

There is enormous pressure on HAL. They are doing their best. It is a complex problem to bring everybody up to a point that where we can build state-of-the-art 4.5 gen fighters at speed.

IAF is extremely satisfied with the performance of Tejas Mk1. They are driving Mk1A and Mk2.

Tragedy of brf, those who know can't speak or don't speak. However, I very Clearly remember either of ramana or you mention in past that production is on track when looked from financial year.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Sep 2018 10:34

sometime back (year back), we had an oped stating then the production time per jet came down from 19 months to 11 months. Can they bring this further down with concurrent engineering efforts?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Sep 2018 11:23

ArjunPandit wrote: However, I very Clearly remember either of ramana or you mention in past that production is on track when looked from financial year.

It was I who said all is well. So I will take the blame.

They are trying out many things. They are trying to build up Tier 2 suppliers from scratch. It is not only new for the upcoming suppliers, but also for HAL which has never mentored to this extent. And just having IAF manage this will not change things either. Because IAF doesn’t have expertise in this as well. MoD and MoF are new at this too. It’s a first for India. There are financial catch-22s, turf wars, etc.

The good thing is that the GoI, HAL, IAF and the private parties are all working earnestly. The ball is steadily being moved forward every day.

We shall overcome!

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 20 Sep 2018 11:53

Exactly that is what I wanted to hear, there is no room for failure/blame games. This is the first time we are doing without any help and that is why it is essential for us to see it through till the end.
I also remember your mention about people burning the midnight oil to resolve issues. All these efforts and the efforts of likes of kota harinarayana must not go waste.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 20 Sep 2018 12:22

and Sjha tweets after going through last few pages here:

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1042665037620363264 ---> According to people in the know, HAL is on track to deliver 10-12 Tejas Mk-Is this financial year.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1042665987072376832 ---> The biggest problem being faced by HAL is the ability to source line replacement units on time, because of the piecemeal ordering over the years and HAL's own 'evolving' approach to manufacturing the Tejas.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1042666927653437440 ----> However, Tier-II, III chaps are now convinced that the program won't wrap up with just 40 jets. HAL too is quite enthused with the RFP for 83 Tejas Mk-1As to which it has already responded. Do recall, the IAF has also 'in-principle' committed itself to a further 201 Tejas Mk-2s.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 20 Sep 2018 15:23

Indranil wrote:I cannot. This is a public forum. It is not just me. Many here (in the know) are keeping their mouth shut.

There is enormous pressure on HAL. They are doing their best. It is a complex problem to bring everybody up to a point that where we can build state-of-the-art 4.5 gen fighters at speed.

IAF is extremely satisfied with the performance of Tejas Mk1. They are driving Mk1A and Mk2.

Fine Lets go with this. Not much to go till end of FY.

Indranil wrote: And just having IAF manage this will not change things either. Because IAF doesn’t have expertise in this as well.

I think having IAF manage could possibly be the worse, it dilutes their focus and they are not the experts in that domain.

chola · Post by **chola** » 20 Sep 2018 15:30

Khalsa wrote:

Indranil wrote: And just having IAF manage this will not change things either. Because IAF doesn’t have expertise in this as well.
I think having IAF manage could possibly be the worse, it dilutes their focus and they are not the experts in that domain.

Experts or not, having the IAF there would be an incentive for HAL to be more diligent and the IAF to be more accepting.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Sep 2018 19:44

Good updates on Tejas production by Indranil and Saurav Jha. Very pleased to hear...

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 20 Sep 2018 22:35

chola wrote: Experts or not, having the IAF there would be an incentive for HAL to be more diligent and the IAF to be more accepting.

They would have to understand how a project should be managed and what not to do.

E.g Cannot be changing requirements midway and adding new requirements on the fly without understanding the consequences. The Arjun tank project is a good example of disastrous project management.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Sep 2018 03:19

Most Inspiring Speech Ever By An Air Marshal on Indigenisation of Aerospace Industry

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Sep 2018 04:59

Sau taka khari baat!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Sep 2018 06:25

Khalsa, US found putting a military officer in charge of new weapons procurement helps as he can speak with authority to clear hurdles and smooth ruffled feathers. This is especially true of creating new supply chain. But I have not seen British military officers in charge of programs!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Sep 2018 07:49

India looks to indigenous fighters

With the number of the Indian Air Force’s fighter squadrons expected to decrease quickly from the present 31 as the current fleet ages, there has been a decisive endeavor to accelerate the recapitalization of the fighter fleet. The majority of the new fighters are to bear the “Make in India” label. By 2032, the Indian Air Force plans to have at least 18 squadrons of Indian-made fighters, said the Deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal R. Nambiar, at a conference held in Delhi this month.

Nambiar said that the squadrons of the indigenously built fleet would include the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk1, Mk1A, and Mk2 that, in 10 years, “would be the mainstay of our inventory.” LCA variants would replace the MiG-29s, Jaguars, and Mirage 2000s. He said of the LCA: “It is a wonderful aircraft but deliveries are too slow.”

With the India-Russia fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project showing little signs of moving ahead, it is the twin-engine, stealthy Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program that the Indian Air Force is now looking at “as a replacement for the Sukhoi Su-30s, which will start showing their age by then,” noted Nambiar. He said that the air force “has put its money where its mouth is” and has already released a facility in Coimbatore in South India to the Defence Research Development Organisation to start work on two AMCA technology demonstrators. In the meantime, the Minister of Defense, Nirmala Sitharaman, confirmed to Parliament the feasibility study for the development of AMCA had already been completed.

While optimistic about the project, Ashis Kumar Ghosh, the AMCA project director, said that there have been numerous challenges. “AMCA is in the fifth-gen, 25-ton weight category, to be operated [partially] stealthy and with internal weaponry. The most important [challenge] is developing the technology indigenously while retaining common design drivers, yet being different. We would like to fly with a readily available engine, and the swing role has to be performed, as asked for by the air force.” He added that an increase in survivability was planned with “stealth, electronic warfare, and performance.”

Realization of the plan is to first fly two technology demonstrators of a fifth-generation aircraft. “Once the airframe is ready and flown, we will start to add others in a phased manner. This helps in de-risking the program as we can start work on different aspects simultaneously.” He added that a quality, skilled manufacturing ecosystem was essential for the AMCA to be built. Vendors, he said, would be dealing with a “high geometric complexity. Too many requirements are required for stealth. If you cannot maintain proper tolerances, it becomes a challenge.”

As the first of 36 Rafales are delivered from September next year until 2022, an official indicated that Dassault Aviation could likely be given an additional order in later years, as they would most likely be cheaper. With two squadrons established at different bases in India, and able to absorb additional aircraft, there would be no further need to equip additional bases with the necessary tooling and equipment.

Regarding the Request for Information released for 114 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA), with a Request for Proposal that will be issued late next year at the earliest and implemented after three to four years, there is cynicism among many OEMs who feel that this, too, might experience the fate of the earlier MRCA that was canceled by the previous government. Additionally, 85 percent of the MRCA project has to be “Made in India” by a Strategic Partner (SP)/Indian Production Agency. While it has a straightforward intent, the perplexing SP model is slow with decision-making and the final draft has yet to be implemented, leaving future vendors in a state of uncertainty.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Sep 2018 11:56

wah! 18 squads of Mk1, 1a, and Tejas Mk2 ! I can expect at least 10 squadrons of AMCA for 2030 and beyond as well, replacing+augmenting Migs, Rafales and Jags

chola · Post by **chola** » 21 Sep 2018 15:26

Commitment! If the IAF really has “put money where its mouth’s at” then we will be in for a fabulous ride.

If not, it will be ...

Too scare to go all in and hitching my sanity to this. But I want to, though.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Sep 2018 17:02

SaiK wrote:wah! 18 squads of Mk1, 1a, and Tejas Mk2 ! I can expect at least 10 squadrons of AMCA for 2030 and beyond as well, replacing+augmenting Migs, Rafales and Jags

All with ameriki engines??

talk about eggs and baskets.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Sep 2018 20:37

indiski engine is an eventuality. it is a question of when we will hear the good news.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 22 Sep 2018 05:01

chetak wrote:
SaiK wrote:wah! 18 squads of Mk1, 1a, and Tejas Mk2 ! I can expect at least 10 squadrons of AMCA for 2030 and beyond as well, replacing+augmenting Migs, Rafales and Jags
All with ameriki engines??

talk about eggs and baskets.

You are hard to please man!

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 22 Sep 2018 05:51

chetak wrote:
SaiK wrote:wah! 18 squads of Mk1, 1a, and Tejas Mk2 ! I can expect at least 10 squadrons of AMCA for 2030 and beyond as well, replacing+augmenting Migs, Rafales and Jags
All with ameriki engines??

talk about eggs and baskets.

shhh... don't mention amriki... cause we can't compromise on engine performance

we still want 324 lca and strategic independence too

talk about fries along with it

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 22 Sep 2018 06:09

ramana wrote:Picklu, What do you suggest for IAF to do wrt Tejas?

1. Order 2 more squadron of mk1 right now before switching over to mk1a (everyone and their mother, including drdo, ada and hal, know the current mk1a timeline is unrealistic; all large programs, be it USA/EU or India, all have similar delay; difference is USA/EU do not use the delay to shill for import )
2. After the above 2 squadron, order 1 more squadron of mk1 with kaveri engine (i.e. retain the airframe that has been thoroughly debugged by then and operationalize & test the unproven engine, even with performance shortfall)

All the never-ending continuous improvement of mk1a, mk2, mk2a, mk3, mk4 etc can run in parallel and production switch over once they mature.

Basically budget and finance an yearly quota of 24 airframe with increasingly %age of kaveri engine from 2019 onward for next 15 years. And please, no shenanigans in acceptance after production in the name of QC.

Otherwise, all this is Arjun redux - all talk and no show. Given the current way things are going, if the above suggestions are not followed, IAF praise or whatever, we will still have less than 50 LCA by 2025.

Take that in writing from me.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Sep 2018 07:54

Picklu, with regards to Point 2, it will not work.

Kaveri must not only fly, it must also be proven (certified) and meet design specifications. The IAF will not accept it otherwise.

The IAF will never take an unproven engine into combat or even fly it during peacetime. That will not happen.

I would like to continue with Mk1 production, till Mk1A is ready. However I am not sure how feasible that idea would be. HAL Chief says Mk1 can be converted into Mk1A. Perhaps Indranil can advise.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 22 Sep 2018 09:19

‘The Tejas Mk II Is Expected To Form The Bulk Of The Indian Air Force’ Says IAF Deputy Chief Air Marshal Nambiar
https://t.co/99699zscU8

AM Nambiar spoke to Delhi Defence Review’s Chandrashekhar Bhattacharyya (CB)

CB: The IAF is in the middle of inducting a plethora of new air assets, and you have personally been a key stakeholder in the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas programme. Please share your thoughts and experiences about this centerpiece indigenous project.

AM Nambiar: The commissioning of the first Squadron of LCA Tejas in July 2016 marks a major leap towards indigenous capability building. We expect the squadron to be fully equipped by March 2019, followed by delivery of the Tejas in the Final operational Clearance configuration and subsequently the Tejas Mk 1A. The Mk 1A, apart from addressing obsolescence issues and maintainability improvements, will have additional capabilities such as an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, better beyond visual range (BVR) interception performance, air to air refuelling (AAR) capability, a pod mounted electronic warfare (EW) suite and superior avionics. Future inductions will include the Tejas Mk II, which is expected to form the bulk of the Air Force in the years to come, as the IAF proposes to replace its Mirage-2000, MiG- 29 and Jaguar (fleet) with this aircraft.

http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2018/ ... ssion=true

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Sep 2018 10:25

Katare wrote:
chetak wrote:
All with ameriki engines??

talk about eggs and baskets.
You are hard to please man!

not if one has struggled through the last set of ameriki sanctions.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Sep 2018 10:27

Picklu wrote:
chetak wrote:
All with ameriki engines??

talk about eggs and baskets.
shhh... don't mention amriki... cause we can't compromise on engine performance

we still want 324 lca and strategic independence too

talk about fries along with it

Talk about making relentless efforts to achieve strategic independence.

laying back and enjoying it is not the solution.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 22 Sep 2018 22:46

Rakesh wrote:Picklu, with regards to Point 2, it will not work.

Kaveri must not only fly, it must also be proven (certified) and meet design specifications. The IAF will not accept it otherwise.

The IAF will never take an unproven engine into combat or even fly it during peacetime. That will not happen.

I would like to continue with Mk1 production, till Mk1A is ready. However I am not sure how feasible that idea would be. HAL Chief says Mk1 can be converted into Mk1A. Perhaps Indranil can advise.

If the idiots in the opposition had not jeopardized the French connection we might have seen something like an m88 based kaveri if not an m88 based Tejas, but now that possibility looks bleak and very delayed. Time to do another engine selection and bring in something else.

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Sep 2018 22:54

Just my thougts, IAF might do a re-think on F414 with the CAASTA hanging around. You never know when US might trigger the CAASTA.

We have the choice of M88, Eurojet & ofcourse AL( which IAF may not like).

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 22 Sep 2018 22:59

but we still have to live with 404. That said have we placed any orders for even 414 ?
PS:
My bad should have researched better got this
https://www.indiastrategic.in/topstorie ... or_LCA.htm

India finalizes agreement for GE 414 engine for indigenous Light Combat Aircraft

GE won the contract for its F414-GE-INS6 afterburner turbofan engine in September 2010 with a narrow margin against a competing bid by the European Eurojet EJ 200.

HAL is making 20 + 20 LCAs with the GE 404-GE-F213 afterburner engines for IAF in the first two orders. After that, the plan is to produce around 200 LCAs for both the IAF and Navy with the 414 engine. The naval aircraft will have a strengthened fuselage, wheel base, and a drooping nose to facilitate carrier deck landings.

PPS: https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/2684 ... ngines-jet

India orders 99 GE F414 engines for Tejas fighter jet
As India’s Business Standard notes in its coverage, the F414 was directly competing against Eurojet’s EJ-200. And as the The Times of India reports, while the initial order is for 99 engines, an option for 49 more could be exercised later. Both papers note that the GE Aviation win leaves the engine team well-positioned to compete for the next big program in the Indian Air Force, which is a fleet of more than 100 medium fighters.

PPPS: No deal signing news. Just competitiion winning kinda news.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 22 Sep 2018 23:04

^Not that I can remember. There are only the current mk1 orders, Tejas production for mk1a is not supported with any engine purchase iirc.

Guess I'm wrong. I just don't remember this too much in terms of press coverage.

Now might be the right time to do deals with the russkis who are under severe strain from US actions. Maybe they'll be more willing to part with engine tech for the kaveri at a price. Time to buy them out wherever possible?

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Sep 2018 23:08

I believe we have already received couple of F414s.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 22 Sep 2018 23:11

nam wrote:I believe we have already received couple of F414s.

yes even i remember that but still dont remember any bulk ordering for mk2. Could be because people in know were aware of the timelines for mk2 and amca

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 23 Sep 2018 00:54

nam wrote:I believe we have already received couple of F414s.

IIRC, Received two 414 and both malfunctioned. Someone pretty higher up complained publicly

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 23 Sep 2018 01:00

Rakesh wrote:Picklu, with regards to Point 2, it will not work.

Kaveri must not only fly, it must also be proven (certified) and meet design specifications. The IAF will not accept it otherwise.

The IAF will never take an unproven engine into combat or even fly it during peacetime. That will not happen.

I would like to continue with Mk1 production, till Mk1A is ready. However I am not sure how feasible that idea would be. HAL Chief says Mk1 can be converted into Mk1A. Perhaps Indranil can advise.

How do you prove/certify an engine without flying it?

Also, before mk2, LCA would have performance shortfall in multiple areas (vs what originally promised or against the latest/greatest contemporaries) but MOD, for a change, did push through and a part of IAF turned around.

The same is needed for Kaveri.

Note: I am not yet convinced that the majority of IAF is on board on Tejas, the proof would be on continuing mk1 till mk1a without keeping the line idle.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Sep 2018 01:30

Picklu, you prove/certify on a test bed and that test bed should be the Tejas onlee. However, you do not raise an entire squadron for that purpose. GTRE mounts it on one LSP bird (or two) and tests/proves/certifies the engine in that manner.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Sep 2018 04:30

Picklu wrote: How do you prove/certify an engine without flying it?.

actually, it is the other way.. the actual certificate (not paper) to fly it comes before flying it. who in the sane world would fly with an engine that is not fit to fly?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Sep 2018 06:24

In addition to what SaiK said above, you have to test it on a platform that can handle the risk of the engine shutting down in mid-air. Remember the IL-76 test bed? I am not by any means an engine expert and someone else more qualified will have to provide a detailed process, from engine design on drawing board to final certification.

But the point is that no professional Air Force - which the IAF definitely is - will take an unproven and uncertified engine and mount it onto a platform to see how it works.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Sep 2018 19:10

Picklu, see this article from April 2017....

Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets
https://www.deccanherald.com/content/60 ... re-up.html

SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 23 Sep 2018 21:36

Admiral, you are not getting it. I am not advocating uncertified kaveri; For squadron service, I want certified kaveri only.

Is mk1a flying? is mk2? didn't iaf order 83 mk1a and 201 mk2? This is basically a vote of confidence from IAF that they will induct that many as long as mk1a, mk2 get certified.

I would like a similar order of mk1 with kaveri.

Even a certified kaveri remains untested/unproven without squadron service; similar to what LCA mk1 was till LSP.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 23 Sep 2018 21:39

Rakesh wrote:Picklu, see this article from April 2017....

Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets
https://www.deccanherald.com/content/60 ... re-up.html

SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.

The recent pronouncement from snecma is that kaveri is ready to fly on a plane (not engine test bed but an actual plane)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Sep 2018 22:54

link?