Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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prasannasimha
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by prasannasimha »

People keep blaming GTRE but no one hears the other side of the story.- They want an alloy manufactured that cannot be imported - no one is ready to cast small batches and no one is ready to set up a small special manufacturing unit as it costs a lot. Same for flight testing - they have asked for a test bed but non came and were forced to do limited tests in Russia. testing is iterative and not a one shot affair. Engine design and testing takes years and costs money. You cant doit if you do not spend, allocate resources and give facilities
VKumar
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by VKumar »

It would make me very happy just to see Kaveri in a LCA just for Taxi trials. No need to get airborne.
chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

JayS wrote:
chetak wrote:
The converted boeing should be certified by DGCA, we don't need anyone else for this. Certainly not CEMILAC who have nil exposure and experience in this type of work. Since its a transport aircraft, DGCA is mandatorily involved, and IIRC, it is also involved in mil transport aircraft.

DGCA will most likely classify this testbed as an "experimental" aircraft.

Once classified as "experimental", you are well and truly on your own.
I have high doubts on technical competency DGCA to handle something which may not be as simple as copy pasting from FAA..? DGCA made a random rule than one cannot have an experimental aircraft with weigh <1500Kg. From all that I hear about DGCA (even after giving a good margin for said and heard things) I don't think DGCA is in any situation to do any certification on its own. CEMILAC on the other hand seems to have much better competency due to working with LCA like projects.

There might be benefits to keep the FTB in Military domain. It could be completely shielded from any kind of public disclosure that way, I tend to think.

Anyway how to handle the certification is easy matter relatively speaking. Should not be bottleneck for acquiring FTB.

It will definitely be classified as "Experimental".

US Govt comes into picture because many things that have even remote chances of being used for Military application falls under dual use technology category and have restrictions on export. Even if we work with Israel or Europe, if the program involves anything from US, the ITAR would be applicable. And I am pretty sure something or the other will fall under dual use category. They even have alloys, which are widely used even in India, under export control. (The recent upgradation to Tier 1 country, should be helpful for us in getting clearances in many situations). You may get it, but still need to do all the documentation with export control licenses to be acquired from USG.
If what you say about DGCA applies, then CEMILAC is way below that.

I have interacted and also worked with both of them.

Do not underestimate the DGCA, their guys are in constant technical interaction with ICAO for various reasons. They are in daily touch with all aircraft and engine manufacturers, the world over, including the russian ones. DGCA has technically matured aircraft engineers with a vast technical repertoire of transport aircraft/ engine clearance and certification. CEMILAC has very limited exposure to military aircraft only and their exposure to engines is even less.

Please, an FTB is not a mil application and ITAR does not apply . Whats ITARish about a modified old boeing?? ONLY the KAVERI is a MIL item, if at all. After the mod is complete, the FTB can carry the kaveri, which will simply one among a number of other engines that can also be carried with small mounting redesign and modifications, if the FTB is chartered out for productive work.

It israel did the job, would ITAR still apply?? What if it had no US sourced components at all?? Where exactly are you anticipating the US made "dual" use components?? What if we supplied french or german or russkie made alloys instead?? They are as good if not actually better.

Why persist in involving the US when it is not needed.

Get the aircraft, modify it, instrument it, test fly it and use it.

Is the US the only known source for everything in the world??

How do the russkies manage?? Why did we go to them for the first FTB trials of the kaveri?? Do they not know the kaveri inside out by now?? Technical discussions may have been undertaken with a number of foreign contractors, requiring us to expose the kaveri in a bid to find the proper expertise as well as the right fit, no?? The frenchies also know for sure.

The kaveri has been thoroughly exposed to one and all. That's why a high price is being quoted to help us. They know right down to the last person, the competency of guys working on the kaveri. Many creative youngsters have already left to find lucrative employment outside, just like in every other DRDO lab.

Even if CEMILAC did clear it, the FTB boeing/any aircraft FTB cannot fly in India without DGCA clearance, period. Even if it flew under an Indian MIL tail number, DGCA is still involved.

Many years ago for a critical engine repair, I was looking for a very specific welding rod. After failing to find it anywhere else, I finally found an exact match in an Airbus product, a source that no one had thought of tapping. The old alloy that I was working on was easily available under an airbus part number and the chemical composition was an identical match.

No need to go to the US for everything. Angel trump, with his magic wand can just as easily sanction a Tier 1 country as he is currently doing with his until recently much prized non NATO ally, the pakis.

The amerikis are completely transactional and immorally so. If they manage to corral the hans in this trade war thingee, they will drop us like a hot potato, until the next time that need us.

Then, we may even get promoted to the ultimate, one and only, "tier 0" country, no??
chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

prasannasimha wrote:People keep blaming GTRE but no one hears the other side of the story.- They want an alloy manufactured that cannot be imported - no one is ready to cast small batches and no one is ready to set up a small special manufacturing unit as it costs a lot. Same for flight testing - they have asked for a test bed but non came and were forced to do limited tests in Russia. testing is iterative and not a one shot affair. Engine design and testing takes years and costs money. You cant doit if you do not spend, allocate resources and give facilities
Why was this alloy chosen in the first place??.

As I heard it, we have force landed in the ameriki lap once more with no means of escape. If we are sanctioned once again, and this specific alloy is targeted, kaveri is as good as dead.

Or are we talking of two different alloys??
ramana
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Prasanna you are talking to silly people.
There is a minimum economic quantity for every thing.

You can't buy ten fasteners, You need to buy the box.

Can say I need 10 kgs please make 15 kg including wastage.
Alloy lot would be in 500 kg minimum buy to fire up the furnace etc.

I have worked with special glass.
Again minimum buy was quoted, so we said we will use for production lot.

in fact i suggested life of type buy so don't have material changes headaches later on.

Why can't GTRE say OK whats your minimum buy quantity and procure it for future use in the production run of the Kaveri?
All these are just excuses like "If only...., I could fly to Saturn and come back in nanoseconds"
Indranil
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Because Ramana saar, to procure minimum buying quantity from a non desi source needs a budget which has to be signed a hundred babus and their peons. And then gobaarment people look at the file and say “itna mehanga! Kyun chahiye itna quantity. We are poor country only. Abhi jitna chahiye, utna hi procure kijiye. Please file ko update karke agle AoN meeting me laiye.”
prasannasimha
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by prasannasimha »

I had replied but it failed to upload. Indranil's reply is actually what happens. Its easy to blame the scientists. How are they to work when you have to pass the file through death through a thousand meetings ? One vlerk is enough.

Its not that they did not ask for life cycle procurement. They have but such costs are not approved. Also its not so simple when you need to experiment and develop the engine when you need to develop different materials for different components especially those with embargoes etc. Remember they have an engine which has been shown by a gara to work. They were not idle. This being done while goung through major beaurocratic hoops. Its not just about one alloy the cycle has been repititive.
If it really has to be succesful it must be put as project of mational importance directly under PMO. Then things csn move.
prasannasimha
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by prasannasimha »

Its not just one alloy. Many materials. This is a problem when material science is not givven importnce in our industrial development and research
Indranil
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Also Scientist are third class citizens of our country. A Flying engine testbed costs upwards of 400-500 million. Who will sanction a plane for the scientists? VVIP travel: fastest procurement. Hundreds of fighter jets (some now costing over $200 million dollars a piece). Flying test bed: kyun chahiye? It is like: “soccer team to Asian games: kyun chahiye?”. Bulletproof laal batti gaddis: yes sir. Bulletproof helmets: kyun chahiye.

After Airavat's crash, we did not procure a single testbed till the recently procured Dornier. The Hack championed on with its limited capability. The Dornier can test small belly mounted radars, antennas radomes etc. This, they got after 20 years of pleading!

About the alloys, I was recently talking to a GTRE gent (he has appeared a few times at AI-seminars). I asked him why are you guys going for the holy grail. Why don't you start with a good marine GT where TWR is not an issue. Then you could refine it to a good aero engine. He first schooled me on how my said path is not taken in the industry. And then he said, "If we we ask them for money to build a marine engine first, they will not even give us what they are giving us now."

I ask all here who feel that a private company would have been or would be panacea to all our MiLInd problems. Those who feel that we would have had an aero engine but for the incompetence of GTRE. What is stopping a private entity to develop an engine. There's a benevolent govt. and customer(s) who are ready to buy a good-enough engine. Then why isn't a desi private-designed engine on the market? There are the Ambanis with the deep enough pockets who don't need any background experience to excel at most complex of engineering projects.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Gyan »

10-15 year old Boeing 747 can be picked up for around USD 50-75 MILLION dollars and converted. But considering we have junked even trisonic wind tunnel test lab to be built by Boeing as offset, this FTB is not happening.
chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:Prasanna you are talking to silly people.
There is a minimum economic quantity for every thing.

You can't buy ten fasteners, You need to buy the box.

Can say I need 10 kgs please make 15 kg including wastage.
Alloy lot would be in 500 kg minimum buy to fire up the furnace etc.

I have worked with special glass.
Again minimum buy was quoted, so we said we will use for production lot.

in fact i suggested life of type buy so don't have material changes headaches later on.

Why can't GTRE say OK whats your minimum buy quantity and procure it for future use in the production run of the Kaveri?
All these are just excuses like "If only...., I could fly to Saturn and come back in nanoseconds"
In the course of my wanderings, I have spoken to some of these people who can maybe make such alloys. It is a risky and long drawn out procedure. Outcomes are often bleak and timelines are really long. It needs a sustainable ecosystem as well as guaranteed funding. In the end, everyone has a boss who will ask some really tough questions and that needs to be answered, oftentimes at the cost of a career.

They say, let these guys put their money where their mouth is.

Enter into a JV with us and invest. Share the risks before you think of harvesting the fruits. They say nobody has ever gotten back to them.

Everybody wants/demands garam garam, bana bana halwa but no one wants to make it.

This is just like the behavior of an entitled son in law. All expenses debited to the inlaw's family.

There is never the factual and realistic analyses of the risks and opportunities involved in any project.

jiski lathi, uski bhains, has always been the shining motto.

once the lathi owner retires, a new lathi owner emerges with a new bhains to drive.

And then, an entirely new set of cowherds, whose day in the sun is coterminous with the new lathi owner's regime, take over and the old set moves into obscurity.

Like a friend of mine says, my son in law is coming to visit, he likes big prawns and so my wife insists on making the big prawns for him and it costs me 6-7,000 rs per day to buy the prawns and the freeloader eats them morning, noon and night.

A week of his visit costs me a fortune.

BTW, whenever we visit him, not surprisingly, his most favorite dish is never ever on the menu and we get fed exclusively vegetarian food.

Go figure.

Why should the DRDO guys not be willing to pay the amortized per Kg cost of any super alloy that they want an Indian organization to make for them??

Sometimes, when I placed orders, I got charged for the die development and production cost of the die itself and this costing was in many many lakhs. Fair enough.

I simply insisted on the delivery of the die along with the product itself as legally, I was now the owner of the die and sure enough, the die was invariably delivered to us.
chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Gyan wrote:10-15 year old Boeing 747 can be picked up for around USD 50-75 MILLION dollars and converted. But considering we have junked even trisonic wind tunnel test lab to be built by Boeing as offset, this FTB is not happening.
No one is willing to touch it with a barge pole.

It is only now that they have figured out that death is the ever present but unforgiving passenger in the "glamorous" world of test flights.

Earlier it was eagerly seen as the sureshot way to out of turn promotions and big awards for scientists.

A couple of fatal test flight accidents later, mostly idly and saras, the rose tinted glasses have quickly fallen away.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Gyan wrote:10-15 year old Boeing 747 can be picked up for around USD 50-75 MILLION dollars and converted. But considering we have junked even trisonic wind tunnel test lab to be built by Boeing as offset, this FTB is not happening.
An used aircraft is less than 10% of the cost.
chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Indranil wrote:
Gyan wrote:10-15 year old Boeing 747 can be picked up for around USD 50-75 MILLION dollars and converted. But considering we have junked even trisonic wind tunnel test lab to be built by Boeing as offset, this FTB is not happening.
An used aircraft is less than 10% of the cost.
AI should transfer at book value of Rs 1.

After all, didn't they do something similar when the A300s were "transferred" to afghanistan??

This is a patriotic and a national cause.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

So all this discussion points out to the underlying circumstances of Kaveri is a make work-keep busy program.
No one is serious about it.

Chetak the suppiler asking for tooling development is fair as it wont be used elsewhere and you asking back for it is also fair as you paid for it.

Prasanna I feel their pain but is self inflicted.
They have not made a compelling case for the resources.

I truly blame the program managers of the Tejas program the plane and the engine for this chicken and egg fiasco.
Kota Harinarayana was an aero guy and more interested in the plane and didn't care which engine.
The engine guys didn't have the drive to get the engine completed.
JayS
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

ramana wrote:
I truly blame the program managers of the Tejas program the plane and the engine for this chicken and egg fiasco.
Kota Harinarayana was an aero guy and more interested in the plane and didn't care which engine.
The engine guys didn't have the drive to get the engine completed.
What would you have KH do, hold LCA until Kaveri is made flightworthy..? He had no control of Engine program. Hell ADA didn't have much control over the stakeholders like HAL who were suppose to work on LCA itself. The problem of lack of authority of ADA has been flagged even before it was formed. How exactly would KH had influenced Kaveri program..?

Instead of going from bottom up, why not go from top to bottom..? Start at the highest level which drives everything and has real power of making things happen, i.e. the PM level. Then MoD, then babus and so on till the peon working on the program. Lets see at which level we first encounter the real problem and whom we can truly blame. :)

The Program management was a real issue and perhaps the most important one. But the actual program managers are never fully empowered in our system. The programs in India always run more at wishes and whims of Politicians, babus and the Armed Forces than what the Program in-charge want to do. A bad Program manager will definitely screw up the program, but in our system there is no guarantee than a good Program manager would be allowed to run the program properly. Its a systematic failure and not a person specific one.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

I had posted this article previously as well IIRC, but still a good refresh given the current discussion context.

http://aviationweek.com/blog/inside-pra ... ng-testbed

Talks about the two B747 test beds PW has. History of one of them, the famous one with GTF mounted near its nose -
The aircraft, now Canadian-registered with the appropriate identity C-GTFF, was originally built for Korean Airlines. First flown at Everett in January 1981, it entered service with Korean in March 1981 and remained in service with the carrier for the next 18 years. Following stints with The Air Medical Foundation and Transatlantic International Airlines, the 747SP spent several years in storage after being acquired by P&W in the mid-2000s.
L3 is one 3rd party company which has done structural modification for this innovative pylon for test engine.
Inside the top of the upper deck hump are the reinforcing structural members, put together by modification specialists L3, which support the stub wing.
https://www.l3t.com/mas/prototyping-and-manufacturing/

The same company had converted a B747 to FTB for Rolls, which is again bought from some airline.

GE seems to have multiple B747 FTBs. One they bought after 21yrs of Airliner service and used for another 26yrs. The plane flew grand total of 47 yrs..!!

Here is small video of GE FTB tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=995i8v28QEU
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

This one is now retired. They got the newer one from JAL (after 20 years in crew service). But, one can imagine the cost of a 747s payload worth of custom instrumentation.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

I would say 200Mil USD.
nam
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

The only way to move things of national importance is have the big danda driving it. i.e. PMO

Just like nuke sub, nukes, ISRO are driven by the PMO, jet engines should be as well.

This is the only way to make sure funds are allocated when required. Need to take jet engine development off MoD and hand it over to PMO.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

nam wrote:The only way to move things of national importance is have the big danda driving it. i.e. PMO

Just like nuke sub, nukes, ISRO are driven by the PMO, jet engines should be as well.

This is the only way to make sure funds are allocated when required. Need to take jet engine development off MoD and hand it over to PMO.
Get real guys.

PMO is never going to drive the project. Why should he?? to invite more rafale like criticism??

What are the multitudes of scientists doing??

Did anyone ever figure out how and why APJAK was so successful??, both in the DRDO and out of it??

Where he started out, what he did in his working life and where he ended up, like the most beloved president that this country has ever had?? We all forget that his one singular and vital quality was his political astuteness, both at work and in life.

The man produced results, and highly visible results at that. He figured out how to tap the reluctant politician, the recalcitrant babu, motivate the malevolent colleague and most of all work in the corrosive and venal atmosphere generated by the system and it's deeply embedded vested interests. All qualities sadly lacking today.

With all his political astuteness, APJAK was undeniably a committed nationalist. He never benefitted personally, maintaining his extremely frugal lifestyle to the very end of his days and he never gave up his total dedication to results. I just don't see this happening in today's institutions and the guys who run it.

All the senior guys are full of political astuteness too but there is a vast difference in how it is practiced by them and how it was practiced by APJAK and therein lies the rub. These are the very guys who drove away paulraj due to their gut wrenching jealousy and look at what we lost in the bargain.

Anyone ever hear of APJAK complaining about anything??

There is no confidence left in the govt (any govt) for them to keep on funding strikeout after strikeout.

Why are there so few success stories?? right across the board??

At some stage, especially after many many decades, if the bean counter wakes up and says let us look at the research ROI, how come there are so few answers??

Yes, we are a poor country and we just cannot lump this sorry state of affairs forever. Money is just a very small part of the big picture.
Last edited by chetak on 05 Oct 2018 09:11, edited 1 time in total.
JayS
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

nam wrote:The only way to move things of national importance is have the big danda driving it. i.e. PMO

Just like nuke sub, nukes, ISRO are driven by the PMO, jet engines should be as well.

This is the only way to make sure funds are allocated when required. Need to take jet engine development off MoD and hand it over to PMO.
The need to drive from PMO itself is an indicator that the entire chain of command is broken. MoD simply doesnt function as it should be. Else what can explain far better performance in Space and Nuclear power and Missiles. The exact same scientists work in those projects. But they were national projects. That was the key differentiator, from the program management perspective. Removal of bureaucratic and political hurdals really helps. A whole lot of weak links removed who could have potentially derailed the progress.

It will take long time to overhaul the system even if someone has will to do it. But short term solution seems to be making Kaveri a National Mission. I cant think of any better way of expediting things on this front.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

chetak wrote: Did anyone ever figure out how and why APJAK was so successful??, both in the DRDO and out of it??
I expected someone will make such point. But he did fail to make Kaveri program work, didnt he..? Kaveri was not completed when it was supposed to have. APJ was DRDO head in late 90s.
chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

JayS wrote:
nam wrote:The only way to move things of national importance is have the big danda driving it. i.e. PMO

Just like nuke sub, nukes, ISRO are driven by the PMO, jet engines should be as well.

This is the only way to make sure funds are allocated when required. Need to take jet engine development off MoD and hand it over to PMO.
The need to drive from PMO itself is an indicator that the entire chain of command is broken. MoD simply doesnt function as it should be. Else what can explain far better performance in Space and Nuclear power and Missiles. The exact same scientists work in those projects. But they were national projects. That was the key differentiator, from the program management perspective. Removal of bureaucratic and political hurdals really helps. A whole lot of weak links removed who could have potentially derailed the progress.

It will take long time to overhaul the system even if someone has will to do it. But short term solution seems to be making Kaveri a National Mission. I cant think of any better way of expediting things on this front.
Break the chain, get rid of the vested interest deadwood and start again with the new chain of command. I have the chance to observe this very entitled and self important "chain of command" guys at various events. I will not say anything further.

We have much better run institutions, for instance, in the nuke and space fields, meaning we can do it and we are doing it. Why is that one institution out of so many is struggling to deliver??
chetak
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

JayS wrote:
chetak wrote: Did anyone ever figure out how and why APJAK was so successful??, both in the DRDO and out of it??
I expected someone will make such point. But he did fail to make Kaveri program work, didnt he..? Kaveri was not completed when it was supposed to have. APJ was DRDO head in late 90s.
Yes, I agree with you.

He is the guy solely responsible for the failures of kaveri over two, three decades.

Good call.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Re the FTB,

Please visit any one of the PSU engine test beds if you can and check out the instrumentation installed for engine test runs, along with the engine controls and fuel pipeline connections.

In a nutshell, this is basically and broadly what is needed in the FTB, along with a few bells and whistles for telemetry, recording of parameters, fire extinguishing systems and what not and since it is design work, the designers may decide to add on a whole lot of other parameters to be monitored and recorded to aid their analyses.

This will be an independent system, not connected to the host systems in any way except to get feeds from airspeed, OAT, angle of attack, itayadi and other such environmental stuff. Essentially, inputs from an air data computer (ADC). This computer, rather than individual instruments, can determine the calibrated airspeed, Mach number, altitude, and altitude trend data from an aircraft's pitot-static system.

What one will eventually get in the FTB will be a vastly upsold version of the basic system, with flashing lights et al with plenty of opportunities for folks to make multiple trips abroad for inspections, factory "visits", "acceptance" tests vagera vagera.

I have a young niece who is a senior engineer in the team running the flight test program for a major aircraft manufacturer in the middle of rolling out a major aircraft. Not a big deal, according to her.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by prasannasimha »

Making the FTB will not be difficult per se as it will be an extension of the land based testing unit. What will matter is the entire cost which will not be low and which ahs not been sanctioned by the GOI. It has been asked for but not sanctioned.
I still repeat it must be made a project of national importance.

I always say make it a competition between two groups of GTRE and who ever wins gets significant incentives (pay bonuses , awards incentives etc etc) just like how they make LM Boeing and GE compete - make groups in DRDO compete. Awards to be given for specific milestones etc. This will invigorate various teams to perform
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

prasannasimha wrote:Making the FTB will not be difficult per se as it will be an extension of the land based testing unit. What will matter is the entire cost which will not be low and which ahs not been sanctioned by the GOI. It has been asked for but not sanctioned.
I still repeat it must be made a project of national importance.

I always say make it a competition between two groups of GTRE and who ever wins gets significant incentives (pay bonuses , awards incentives etc etc) just like how they make LM Boeing and GE compete - make groups in DRDO compete. Awards to be given for specific milestones etc. This will invigorate various teams to perform
Caste, creed and religion will immediately raise their very ugly and unionized heads.

Big trouble for the center, especially for the one and only favorite target of commies and urban naxals.

Chaos in the rest of the labs, valid accusations of favouritism and bribery.

TV channels will bless everyone, because their ad revenues will shoot through the roof due to the extensive coverage.

Slogans against brahmins, Hindu nationalists, hindutwa and the RSS sajish will rent the air. Tipu sultan may also make his entry into this charged atmosphere.

It's popcorn and coke time for the rest of us aam aadmis.

Kaveri is the single major project of a lab of national eminence, running exclusively on national resources and on national time for over two, three decades now.

If it is not already a "national project" or a "project of national importance", please tell us what else it is??.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by prasannasimha »

It should be but unfortunately it isn't. Engine development is not a small budget exercise and requires technology and solutions that are expensive and needs direct support from the highest echelons to cut through red tape. In fact if it was made into a black box project like Arihanth and made to move faster it would have been better.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

chetak wrote:
JayS wrote:
I expected someone will make such point. But he did fail to make Kaveri program work, didnt he..? Kaveri was not completed when it was supposed to have. APJ was DRDO head in late 90s.
Yes, I agree with you.

He is the guy solely responsible for the failures of kaveri over two, three decades.

Good call.
It what a rhetoric statement, but hope you got the point. The problem is not that we do not have more APJ. If he excelled in Missile development, its because it was a national project in all respects. If he failed to do the same wonder elsewhere, I wouldn't blame him completely, but then lets not be hypocrites and not extend the same courtesy to others simply because their names are not as big. I do not want to belittle any of APJ's work but if he was so astute, why didn't DRDO perform equally well under his leadership..? Obviously astuteness is not panacea to all. And Missiles development continued to perform well even after his retirement. Clearly he was not the singular factor behind success of IGMDP.

I have previously seen such arguments on BRF that Aeronautical field lacked visionaries like Sarabhai and Bhabha that's why we are in a slumber now. I disagree politely. There were many good people, just that GOI never bothered about this sector and those good people never got equal chance. There was a suggestion to make Department of Aeronautics on the lines of Space and Atomic Energy, right from 1950s. But even until today its not done. No price for guessing why not.

If we are waiting for messiahs for solving our problems all the time then we are fools. We should be working towards creating a system which performs reasonably well with average working force and not something which only a few chosen ones can wade through the vagaries of it. Without real powers and Autonomy given to the stakeholders like the Armed Forces and the DRDO we will never see any great leap in Defense sector.

Anyways, no more from my side on this.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

prasannasimha wrote:Making the FTB will not be difficult per se as it will be an extension of the land based testing unit. What will matter is the entire cost which will not be low and which ahs not been sanctioned by the GOI. It has been asked for but not sanctioned.
I still repeat it must be made a project of national importance.

I always say make it a competition between two groups of GTRE and who ever wins gets significant incentives (pay bonuses , awards incentives etc etc) just like how they make LM Boeing and GE compete - make groups in DRDO compete. Awards to be given for specific milestones etc. This will invigorate various teams to perform
We don't have money to do give to one group and you think two will be created..?

Anyhow eventually HAL will provide the alternative engine design capability to GTRE. There thinking is to start small, and once they make HTFE and HTSE work, they will take up bigger engines like Kaveri. I better like Ramana's suggestion to merge GTRE with HAL's engine division.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

I feel the pain and I also see where both you guys are coming from.

The problem is not so much as in resources, financial and material, as much as it is in other areas of resources.

The others, politicians and the baboo(n)s clearly see the elephant in the room while the guys within the system just refuse to see it or just don't want to see it.

No amount of money and material is going to solve the problem. Foreign collaboration is being sought in these very specific areas where we seem to be lacking the resources to forge ahead.

It is time to weed the garden, clean house and scour the universities and pure research institutions to see if specific boys and girls with the requisite talents and abilities can be poached and motivated to contribute. The standard recruitment process being followed now has simply outlived its usefulness and also it is not that effective.

Maybe, guarantee them a PhD at some ivy league college in return for X number of years of result oriented professional work contribution in some vertically specialized and narrowly focussed area. Let them enter laterally at a much higher level and look after them as one would, I imagine, a gora consultant.

One service successfully used a modified form of this very approach to move ahead on the marine kaveri. They also exploited the required in country resources to test and improve. Their options to point fingers, was any way, removed by their service regulations.

If needed, they now have the bare bones foundation and the launch platform to build something that they may find useful to exploit on some emerging vessel still on the design board.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

prasannasimha wrote:It should be but unfortunately it isn't. Engine development is not a small budget exercise and requires technology and solutions that are expensive and needs direct support from the highest echelons to cut through red tape. In fact if it was made into a black box project like Arihanth and made to move faster it would have been better.
Arihanth was a strategic imperative.

It truly changed the game for India.

Two things, the long range missiles with nuclear payloads, and the submarine nuclear deterrent have simply put us in a very different league.

Whereas, aero engines can still be bought off the shelf.

Unfortunate, but there it is, from the jaundiced point of view of the politician and the baboo(n).
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Chetak sir,

Show me a case where APJAK (I don't think I respect many other people like I respect him) succeeded where we could import a substitute.

Jay,

HTFE-25 is such an admirable management and technical endeavour. However, it is a very conservative design. It is not as close to the cutting edge as Kaveri is. HTFE-25s TWR, OPR and TET are 5.66, 20.40 and 1450K respectively. You know the technical challenges of going up from the these specs to that of Kaveri and beyond.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Indranil wrote:Chetak sir,

Show me a case where APJAK (I don't think I respect many other people like I respect him) succeeded where we could import a substitute.
Indranil saar,

I am not an expert on APJAK, I was lucky enough to meet him twice, once when I was made a liason for one of his visits.

I very seriously doubt that I made any impression on him that he would have carried forward but he did make a profound impression on me as I watched him through that day.

Your question is not clear to me.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

I was lucky to meet him a couple of times too. And am very proud of those few hours of my life and it left an indelible mark on me. He came to "inaugurate" an orphanage started by an ex-fauji. Well, the orphanage had been working for a few years, but the govt. had finally given it a proper space and APJ game to inaugurate the orphanage at the new location. Me and some friends used to volunteer for the organization throughout our undergrad. It just happened that APJ came when I had just graduated and donated my first salary to the orphanage. He was moved by that and talked to me for some time. I remember him jokingly asking, how I paid for my bills for that month :D. I told him that I had saved up from previous internships, but I couldn't buy my mother a saree I had always wanted to. He replied, "You have given your mother a better gift". I met him later at Rashtrapati Bhavan on an invitation. Those are cherished memories. I will tell you that man can inspire. If there was ever a case of managers enabling their subordinates, he was it. He got it from Sarabhai, and many got it from him (including Dr. KH). Such visionaries are lacking these days, not just in the public sector, but in the private sectors well.

My remark was about APJs success. He was politically right because he did not open his mouth much. But he openly said many times that he liked the sanctions (on India). Do you know why?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Indranil wrote:I was lucky to meet him a couple of times too. And am very proud of those few hours of my life and it left an indelible mark on me. He came to "inaugurate" an orphanage started by an ex-fauji. Well, the orphanage had been working for a few years, but the govt. had finally given it a proper space and APJ game to inaugurate the orphanage at the new location. Me and some friends used to volunteer for the organization throughout our undergrad. It just happened that APJ came when I had just graduated and donated my first salary to the orphanage. He was moved by that and talked to me for some time. I remember him jokingly asking, how I paid for my bills for that month :D. I told him that I had saved up from previous internships, but I couldn't buy my mother a saree I had always wanted to. He replied, "You have given your mother a better gift". I met him later at Rashtrapati Bhavan on an invitation. Those are cherished memories. I will tell you that man can inspire. If there was ever a case of managers enabling their subordinates, he was it. He got it from Sarabhai, and many got it from him (including Dr. KH). Such visionaries are lacking these days, not just in the public sector, but in the private sectors well.

My remark was about APJs success. He was politically right because he did not open his mouth much. But he openly said many times that he liked the sanctions (on India). Do you know why?
You did touch a chord in him and he remembered that. You are truly blessed.
"You have given your mother a better gift"
is classic APJAK. He never lost sight of the big picture.

re your question, I do not know but I suspect that he may have felt that the sanctions challenged us to perform at a higher than normal level.

During the sanctions, I still remember how we desperately scrambled to keep our assets operational.
Last edited by chetak on 06 Oct 2018 00:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

Indranil wrote:Chetak sir,

Show me a case where APJAK (I don't think I respect many other people like I respect him) succeeded where we could import a substitute.

Jay,

HTFE-25 is such an admirable management and technical endeavour. However, it is a very conservative design. It is not as close to the cutting edge as Kaveri is. HTFE-25s TWR, OPR and TET are 5.66, 20.40 and 1450K respectively. You know the technical challenges of going up from the these specs to that of Kaveri and beyond.
Exactly why HAL wanted to start with HTFE and not Kaveri like engine. Its their thinking, what they have told the Defense Committee.


I am jealous of you folks who got to even see APJ from up close let alone talk or meet him. All I could manage was to see him on a large screen put up outside our Audi, when he visited our college. We couldn't even get inside the building where the Audi was.

I think he might have liked the Freedom of work that Sanctions brought. :wink:
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Yes when freedom to import is there local innovation gets killed. And only when forces have unique requirements that local innovation can meet it gets nurtured.
US has both military and political requirements that the weapons selected have to be made locally to ensure they are not subject to sanctions. Despite the numerous sanctions India got since 1965 war, and de-facto from 1947, forces still choose imports and hope for the best.

Some one asked whom I hold responsible for the Kaveri thing.

I think we need to start with the political leaders who did not fund the GTRE to ensure viable engine. And the DRDO upper management lack of oversight. So on....
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by JayS »

From the large number of tenders coming from GTRE, looks like they are building 3 prototypes of what they call it as "New Fan".

From the size it looks like its for Kaveri.
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