Small Arms Thread

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Oct 2018 13:20

As mentioned the list is not exhaustive with stuff like the Druganov etc. Least we can do is standardize on a few types of Indian made ammunition.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Oct 2018 13:52

Yes manish ji, mx4 is missing from the list. The good thing about SiG 716 is, it is Hk416 but cheaper and accepts third party magazines more readily. It is also popular in shooting sports because of accuracy at a low price point. I see the existence of Dragunov in Indian service being threatened by SiG 716.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Oct 2018 14:26

Thakur_B wrote:Sachin ji, Ghatak platoons are already trained for SF like roles.

Where do they train and who trains them?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Oct 2018 14:46

Thakur_b

Caracal CQB is 5.56. But I thought they wanted more stopping power for RR?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Oct 2018 14:50

Thakur_B wrote:Sachin ji, Ghatak platoons are already trained for SF like roles.

No Ji please Thakur_b.
You dont know me so how can you accord me respect!!!

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 03 Oct 2018 14:59

rkhanna wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: Where do they train and who trains them?

AFAIK Ghatak - concept and actual on the ground reality is a big Khichdi and varies from Regiment to Regiment.

On Average Ghatak Platoon Guys are the men in the battalion who scored highest marks at Belgaum (officers - mandatory) and Those who completed Belgaum Training (OR). They get seconded to their Ghatak Platoons and training is done in-house within the Regiment. Hence each regiment has its own training/SOP/Standards etc.

Invariably its Ghatak platoon members who try out more often for SF then other line infantry.

Also - Invariably Ghatak training and maintaining combat readiness within a battalion/Regiment is done by Officers who have served their deputation with SF and rotated back.

Ghatak's primarily role is Sniper/Scout duties for the battalion and hence is PURELY tactical for the immediate need of the battalion. A Regiment Can roll across mulitple ghatak units for Regimental Taskings.

There is limited cross training with SF as they are expected to work alongside SF to in pursuit of other SF/Strategic mIssions that may fall with that Regiments AO but needs the regiment to carry some of the logistics etc.

The formation of Ghatak units in years gone by was done in a Adhoc manner to give battalions recon and QRF capability and over time while the concept has stuck - structure, SOPs etc still remain adhocish.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 03 Oct 2018 14:59

ks_sachin wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Sachin ji, Ghatak platoons are already trained for SF like roles.
No Ji please Thakur_b.
You dont know me so how can you accord me respect!!!

A respectable person always accords respect to all others irrespective of age, knowledge & creed. There is no need for some one to know the other in person to accord respect

Sorry Thakur_b for answering a direct question to you
Sorry Mods for going OT

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Oct 2018 15:15

Kakarat mate,
I don’t call anyone Ji. Does that make me disrespectful?
In any case respect has to be earned. Only civility should be given.
Thakur_b has earned my respect by his knowledge. I have done nothing to earn his so in my mind him addressing me as Ji has some meaning to him that I fail to see.
No more from me.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Oct 2018 19:50

Kakarat wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: No Ji please Thakur_b.
You dont know me so how can you accord me respect!!!
A respectable person always accords respect to all others irrespective of age, knowledge & creed. There is no need for some one to know the other in person to accord respect

Sorry Thakur_b for answering a direct question to you
Sorry Mods for going OT

I second that. Its Indic to give respect.
And calling some one 'ji' wont make them an uncle.
If someone doesn't want to be called ji then put it in your signature ji!

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Oct 2018 19:54

https://theprint.in/security/the-sig-71 ... as/127622/

It ain't over till the fat lady sings. Deal won't be signed this year.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 03 Oct 2018 22:17

Thakur_B wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Thakur so the sig will go to inf and RR?
CQB (caracal) will most likely go to RR and SF. We will see SiG in supporting role there as well. SF and Ghatak will most likely get lions share of SiG. SiG 716 will also most likely fill in the role of marksman rifle with modern optics.

Overall it is going to be a khichdi of small arms. In the coming years we are likely to see the following small arms in use considering complete phase out of 1B1 in sf/army/navy/airforce/capf/nsg

SiG 716 - short stroke AR pattern 7.62 nato
Car 816 - short stroke AR pattern 5.56 nato
Phase 2 rifle 7.62 nato
Phase 2 carbine 5.56 nato
OFB Ishapore AR-2 7.62 nato
Tavor-21
Tavor SAR
X95
OFB Ak103 7.62x39
OFB TAR 7.62x39
OFB ghatak 7.62x39
Excalibur & Excalibur mk1 5.56 INSAS
MSMC/JVPC/Milaap 5.56 MINSAS
Yet to be selected .338 lapua sniper
Yet to be selected HMG
Yet to be selected LMG
Yet to be selected MMG
Yet to be selected hi-power 9mm replacement
Fn-SCAR-h
Fn-SCAR-l
Arsenal AKM (Romanian AKM are old and will be first to get replaced, CAPF have purchased a lot of Arsenal AKM over the years)
SiG 550 family 5.56NATO
Jericho 9mm pistols
Glock 9mm pistols
Fn-F2000 5.56 Nato
Fn-P90 5.7x28
Fn 5-7 5.7x28
HK mp5 family
Brugger and thommet mp9
Beretta F92 9mm
Colt / Fn / Bushmaster m4
PASGT 7.62 NATO sniper
OFB 7.62 NATO sniper
GALATZ 7.62 NATO sniper
Fn minimi 5.56 NATO
Steyr AUG 5.56 NATO
Galil SAR 5.56 NATO
Uzi and Micro Usi 9mm

To say the least, this list is indicative and not exhaustive.

Czech Rifles Vz something
Scorpions
M16A4
Bulgarian AK
Few AK74
MINIMI 5,56 & 7.62
Negev

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Oct 2018 23:58

Ghatak platoon are also shock troops of the batallion.

Subedar Major Yogendra Singh Yadav PVC , was leading the Ghatak platoon in Kargil, for which he awarded.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Oct 2018 01:48

Gyan, Do you recall the Emergency purchase of 55000 Czech Cz-75 pistols for the Indian Police during Rajiv Gandhi tenure?
Don't know if it was ever completed.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 Oct 2018 11:49

Each agency procures based on its requirement. Coast Guard uses Amogh chambered for 5.56 x 30 Blanket standardization isnt possible.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Oct 2018 19:29

Atleast the ammo should be standard and available in India.
The two chosen rifles ammo appears to be made by OFB.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 04 Oct 2018 20:28

ramana wrote:Gyan, Do you recall the Emergency purchase of 55000 Czech Cz-75 pistols for the Indian Police during Rajiv Gandhi tenure?
Don't know if it was ever completed.

I remember. It was not completed. Arun Nehru was sought to be trapped in that scam

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Oct 2018 03:52

Ok. Good no more to the menagerie!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 05 Oct 2018 15:53

ramana wrote:Ok. Good no more to the menagerie!

Ramana its more like Noah's Arc for small arms!!

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 05 Oct 2018 17:09

Smaller purchases of CZ-75s were indeed made for some Armored Corps officers, Central Excise and Delhi Special Branch. One of the best pistols ever made, and Indians got them for <$30 a piece. Same with early AKs for <$80 a pop for the paratroopers.

If that is a “scam”, I wonder what we should call today’s situation where IMI sells thousands of Tavors to Indians at a higher price than civilian market *retail price*, Beretta dumps thousands of SMGs and SIG is about to sell thousands more battle rifles to Indians that they haven’t been able to sell in their home countries?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 08 Oct 2018 11:29

ParGha what is your take on who gets what of Sig and Caracal?

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 08 Oct 2018 18:28

ks_sachin wrote:ParGha what is your take on who gets what of Sig and Caracal?

Does it really matter when the whole effort seems to be about lining someone's bank account?

This Sig + Caracal deal works out to a blended rate of about $3,000 USD/rifle -- for comparison, the US Government pays FN to build M4s at about $650 USD/rifle and the Russians now pay about $580 USD/rifle for AK-74Ms.

Given that jawans make around $250/mo and are personally responsible for any damages deemed through misuse or neglect, they may prefer that such overpriced rifles be issued to the battalion kitchen staff, barbers and cleaners. Less likely to go into operations, less likely to get damaged, less likely to get fined.

IMHO, I think ALL units must have the same basic rifle, with compact and sub-compact models for mechanized, airborne, radio-operators, officers etc. based purely on functional requirements -- none of this "front-line" and "rear-area" discrimination. Set $500 USD/rifle as the desired price-point for the base model to be made in India, given India's much lower wages and the huge volumes on order.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 08 Oct 2018 18:57

And likely dying in this painful saga will be the 7.62*51 ofb rifle that is begging to be developed....

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 09 Oct 2018 10:00

^^ OFB rifle isn't dead (for now). They will have a shot at phase-II procurement (if deemed worthy by powers that may be). Be rest assured the imported rifles will be back in armory in a few years with the cost of spares, unless RevEx strings are loosened.

One thing which is definitely dead for now is MCIWS, the program has been officially closed and no one seems to be biting. MCIWS prototypes were made by OFB, so it's most likely they have some sort of MoU with DRDO for eventual production. They will most likely push for rehashed INSAS based designs rather than a new design for which they might have to share proceeds with DRDO. Unless some of the private players come out and buy the IP rights for MCIWS (highly unlikely anybody is going to purchase designs from DRDO after the INSAS fiasco), the program will never see the light of the day.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 09 Oct 2018 12:42

We should have done a FMS for FN m4 and what ever 7.62x51 the us army uses as a DMR...
ParGhas post fills me with melancholy!!!!

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Oct 2018 14:37

DRDO also developed two prototypes of 7.62*51 rifle based on Sig but it has been killed quickly to prevent interference with import.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 09 Oct 2018 14:57

Thakur_B wrote:^^ OFB rifle isn't dead (for now). They will have a shot at phase-II procurement (if deemed worthy by powers that may be). Be rest assured the imported rifles will be back in armory in a few years with the cost of spares, unless RevEx strings are loosened.

I was hoping for the same but with the new specs being written for OFB production of 600000 odd copies of the ak-103 is this not a very slim chance?i.e the ak becomes the domestic rifle rather than the OFB 7.62*51?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Oct 2018 15:01

7,62x51 is a high powered weapon most jawans would be able to use it and would not need it for most combat scenarios.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 09 Oct 2018 15:29

Gyan wrote:DRDO also developed two prototypes of 7.62*51 rifle based on Sig but it has been killed quickly to prevent interference with import.

No they did not!!!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 09 Oct 2018 20:21

Austin wrote:7,62x51 is a high powered weapon most jawans would be able to use it and would not need it for most combat scenarios.

Not sure I understant what u mean.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 09 Oct 2018 21:12

Don't intend to derail the thread. Just checked out these videos of 2 guys trying out various rifles (some with and some without optics) over distances.

Yes, there is variation in the wind speed, temperature etc but these are not all at extreme ranges.

As such they are not meant for any hardcore scientific analysis nor do they simulate battle conditions as such..

5 vids. Each vid is only about 4-5 mins
Mods- Pls. let me know if the post needs to be deleted for any issue

1) M4A1 with ACOG Optics - 5.56 x 45 mm - to 500 yds

2)AK103 without sights - 7.62 x 39 mm - to 500 yds

3)FN FAL without sights - 7.62 x 51 mm - to 500 yds

4)Enfield No.4 MkI Sniper - .303 - to 600 yds one of my all-time faves since childhood

5)Remington R700 (base for the M24, M40) - 7.62 x 51 mm - to 1,100 yds

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 10 Oct 2018 09:48

New polymer magazines for INSAS Mk-1C

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Oct 2018 11:10

ks_sachin wrote:
Austin wrote:7,62x51 is a high powered weapon most jawans would be able to use it and would not need it for most combat scenarios.
Not sure I understant what u mean.

7.62*51 has high recoil, longer barrel as found in SL operations it not a great rifle for close combat situations say less than 100 meters. The 7.62*39 even though it is said practical range is 500 yds, it is difficult to to hit a target above 100 meters unless you have experience with the rifle and can accoutn for the bullet dropping, However, it very good in under 100 meters with shorter barrel than the Nato 7.62*51

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 10 Oct 2018 12:29

Aditya_V wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: Not sure I understant what u mean.
7.62*51 has high recoil, longer barrel as found in SL operations it not a great rifle for close combat situations say less than 100 meters. The 7.62*39 even though it is said practical range is 500 yds, it is difficult to to hit a target above 100 meters unless you have experience with the rifle and can accoutn for the bullet dropping, However, it very good in under 100 meters with shorter barrel than the Nato 7.62*51

Aditya I know all that as well as the ballistics of the various rounds under consideration. . I just dis not understand Austin turn of phrase.
If you have followed SA dev and even this thread then you will realise that the new 7.62 NATO are not like our FALs - the Galil Ace or Tavor is case in point.

Yest we are givingg our RR the Caracal whicjh is 5.56 and the AK103 buy which is 7.62x39 goes to regular inf??

I dont see the logic of weapons procurement. But as ParGha said it is a money making racket!!!
A term comes to mind but it would have me banned if not severly censured by Admins and holier than thou patriots.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 10 Oct 2018 15:23

While we are asking Kalashnikov for a JV, why don't we ask them to design something similar to AK-400 (video below) for us.
It'd go in a big way if they could make just the below cosmetic changes keeping the Receiver and firing mechanism of AK-103

Change to a flat top cover ending with a handguard at the front completed with monolithic and 4 position P-rail.
Iron Sights need to lie flat when not in use or remove altogether.
Barrel and gas tube needs to be free floating, so that the handguard and barrel could be changed as per mission requirement.
A magwell for easy insertion of magazines.
A combined muzzle break and compensator should be available.

Or we could just ask them to produce AK-400 for us. This gun is sick. I am amazed at how little the muzzle rises compared to other AKs. Combined with AKs reliability, this is a sick gun for CI and CT ops.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 10 Oct 2018 16:10

^ The AK-400 was the base prototype for the AK 12 (5.45×39mm) and AK 15 ( 7.62×39mm).

I think we are negotiating for getting production rights of AK 103 (which is said to be planned to be replaced by the AK 15)

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 10 Oct 2018 16:49

souravB wrote:While we are asking Kalashnikov for a JV, why don't we ask them to design something similar to AK-400 (video below) for us.
It'd go in a big way if they could make just the below cosmetic changes keeping the Receiver and firing mechanism of AK-103

Change to a flat top cover ending with a handguard at the front completed with monolithic and 4 position P-rail.

Iron Sights need to lie flat when not in use or remove altogether.

Barrel and gas tube needs to be free floating, so that the handguard and barrel could be changed as per mission requirement.

A magwell for easy insertion of magazines.

A combined muzzle break and compensator should be available.
Or we could just ask them to produce AK-400 for us. This gun is sick. I am amazed at how little the muzzle rises compared to other AKs. Combined with AKs reliability, this is a sick gun for CI and CT ops.

Why not license produce the M4 carbine?

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 10 Oct 2018 18:04

ks_sachin wrote:
Why not license produce the M4 carbine?

The design for AR-15 is available online and without any patents. Loads of companies make their version of AR-15. One don't even need a license to produce a variation of it. So there is nothing stopping the OFB to make a design based on AR-15. They can even buy DIY kits from companies to assemble an AR-15 style rifle. one can assemble a rifle as cheap as 700-800$.
RFI made FALs and RFT made AKs once upon a time and are happy making them till kingdom comes. God forbid if they spend half an hour of a day to look into the contemporary designs. Still RFT did a better job in their TAR.

Manish_P wrote:^ The AK-400 was the base prototype for the AK 12 (5.45×39mm) and AK 15 ( 7.62×39mm).

I think we are negotiating for getting production rights of AK 103 (which is said to be planned to be replaced by the AK 15)

AK-200 was the base for AK-12 and AK-400 for AK-15.
But what I suggested we keep the Receiver and firing mechanism of AK-103 and make certain cosmetic changes that makes the rifle contemporary.
Or we ask them to produce a variant of AK-400 as something our need specifies. It was an either/or situation.
My point is if we are inviting them to produce for us, why not go all the way and ask for a contemporary design.
I think the changes I specified would increase the cost by only a little margin.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 10 Oct 2018 19:45

souravB wrote: AK-200 was the base for AK-12 and AK-400 for AK-15.
But what I suggested we keep the Receiver and firing mechanism of AK-103 and make certain cosmetic changes that makes the rifle contemporary.
Or we ask them to produce a variant of AK-400 as something our need specifies. It was an either/or situation.
My point is if we are inviting them to produce for us, why not go all the way and ask for a contemporary design.
I think the changes I specified would increase the cost by only a little margin.

AK 200 was the initial prototype model for the AK 12, but the AK 400 was the final prototype model for both the AK 12 and AK 15.

Anyway, i do agree with your POV but i think the russians have traditionally had a strong opinion on what defines a contemporary design (basically whatever they deem is correct for themselves).

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 13 Oct 2018 15:00

So this is how a weapon is improved. Th British L85A3

https://youtu.be/4vd8QxgoEMo

See and weep all you small arms enthusiasts...

Our small arms saga is a dereliction of duty....

nam · Post by **nam** » 13 Oct 2018 15:21

On the topic of 7.62x51, a reliasation that our war with Paks is going to be static on the LoC. Smaller caliber is not going to cut it and IA currently is forced to provide AK even to troops on LoC, to give them the range required to target Paks on the mountains tops.

Going 7.62x51 negates the need for 2 caliber rifles. So LoC troops are going to get the Sig rifle.