Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 21 Oct 2018 15:50

Pratyush wrote:WTF, about half not having any orders. I mean it has

1) LUH,
2) ka 62,
3)the light turbo prop trainer plane ( forgot it's name),
4) the LCH .
5) HJT 36
6) Tejas.

So what I am looking at is nearly 1500 air crafts to be built by hal. And people are saying no orders with HAL. What's wrong with this picture?

1) LUH- design not fixed yet for SP, still under development

2) ka 62- i think u mean ka-226 or are we buying 62 too? Anyway, the deal hasn't been signed and price negotiations not completed for Ka-226 yet. Either way, not fixed wing so doesn't count as the report is about fixed wing orders.

3) HTT-40- As far as I remember, HTT-40 had its first flight but the design is yet to be finalized for SP.

4) LCH- Dunno what's going on with this but the report anyway meant no order for fixed wing so this doesn't count.

5) HJT-36- Many issues like engine shutdown during spin still to be corrected definitively. Very far from SP.

6) Tejas- Only the order for 40 Mk1 has been signed while the 83 Mk1A are still just an expression of interest. Out of these 40, 20 are of FOC specification which is still not finalized.

So yeah, HAL really is running out of orders. Serves them right for treating tejas like a step-child for so many years.

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Oct 2018 16:16

Trikaal wrote:
So yeah, HAL really is running out of orders. Serves them right for treating tejas like a step-child for so many years.

Unfortunately there is no "them". It is us. Tax payer's money which is funding all of these.

It is not HAL, it is MoD who needs to answer. It is not HAL who gets to decide if it likes LCA or F22.

MoD has quietly washed off it's hands by just blaming HAL for inefficiency.. and went back to daily business of paper pushing.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 21 Oct 2018 16:24

Also we cannot blame anyone but HAL for not developing anything for the civilian market. HAL was happy screwdrivering all these years and dependent only on MOD orders and even now they want MOD to come to its rescue

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Oct 2018 16:41

We giving excuse to the entity who should really be held responsible. MoD/GoI

HAL cannot do anything without funding approval from MoD. The second line for LCA had to wait approval from MoD.

MoD will not give approval for HAL to go in to civilians market. Why? MoD is not ready to fund any adventure for HAL, because it knows DPSU are job shops.. not companies. After all CAG reports are send to GoI.

HAL will be more than happy to use the civilians market excuse to add more employees and units.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 21 Oct 2018 18:52

Kakarat wrote:Also we cannot blame anyone but HAL for not developing anything for the civilian market. HAL was happy screwdrivering all these years and dependent only on MOD orders and even now they want MOD to come to its rescue

I hope you do understand that HAL has very limited free will and MoD is their boss. HAL is not like a pvt company which can do whatever it wants to do. And since MoD is their boss/owner, its legit for them to go to MoD because MoD is responsible for HAL.

GoI is the owner and GOI has to invest money in any project for HAL to do it. HAL employees are not gonna put money out of their own pockets.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 21 Oct 2018 19:16

nam wrote:
Unfortunately there is no "them". It is us. Tax payer's money which is funding all of these.

It is not HAL, it is MoD who needs to answer. It is not HAL who gets to decide if it likes LCA or F22.

MoD has quietly washed off it's hands by just blaming HAL for inefficiency.. and went back to daily business of paper pushing.

Our money is being burnt by these white elephants anywau. Atleast this way HAL would be forced to shed spme weight and improve its efficiency to stay profitable. The tax payer gains in the long run.

As for answer, I think it is HAL that needs to answer. Funds were always available for Tejas development. HAL basically sat twiddling its thumbs for a major period between 2010 and 2015 when it was happy screwdrivering Sukhois instead of pushing IAF to buy Tejas. It is well known how HAL basically abandoned Tejas to its fate.

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Oct 2018 21:20

Trikaal wrote: Our money is being burnt by these white elephants anywau. Atleast this way HAL would be forced to shed spme weight and improve its efficiency to stay profitable. The tax payer gains in the long run.

As for answer, I think it is HAL that needs to answer. Funds were always available for Tejas development. HAL basically sat twiddling its thumbs for a major period between 2010 and 2015 when it was happy screwdrivering Sukhois instead of pushing IAF to buy Tejas. It is well known how HAL basically abandoned Tejas to its fate.

Of course neither IAF, not HAL was expecting to induct LCA in large numbers. Till 2016 IAF was expecting 124 rafales and HAL waiting to do the assembly. And GOI to foot the bill .

It is when 36 deal was announced, it woke up IAF and HAL. IAF not getting more rafales and hal nothing to assemble.

Suddenly there was overflowing love towards LCA from both IAF and HAL.

Which is why MOD needs to be responsible.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Oct 2018 08:28

if MTA had come through, HAL Kanpur would have been lead integrator.

we are going to need a project to replace the AN32 in a few years. they cannot soldier on forever. whether a clean sheet design or license building something KC390 I dont know.

the RTA project also never gained momentum , let alone a TD.

Saras continues to tinker without entering production stage.

the need for these bread n butter stuff is more than fighters imo. it also created a lot of work and builds a good ecosystem of suppliers which smaller fighter orders can use cheaply. for example honeywell makes a lot of money selling avionics, so when USAF reaches into that parts bin, stuffs already proven and ready to roll.

Cheen now a 737 interior fitting and painting line and a A320 final assembly line. plus the C919+ workflow. matter of time before they plug their suppliers into the airbus/boeing global chain in exchange for market access.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Oct 2018 11:07

Existential crisis for HAL: No new orders for fighter aircraft
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/nati ... 2018-10-20

By Sandeep Unnithan

India's aerospace PSU giant is starved for orders and struggling to stay afloat. It's also now caught in a political crossfire between the Congress and the government.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 23 Oct 2018 11:21

^^^^ Those of us in the public industry know that there is very little certainty beyond 2-3 years, even for the most stable of companies. That's the way it works in the real world, and better HAL get used to it. They have a decent order backlog and are backstopped by the government. It is as good as it gets.

chola · Post by **chola** » 23 Oct 2018 11:36

Rakesh wrote:Existential crisis for HAL: No new orders for fighter aircraft
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/nati ... 2018-10-20

By Sandeep Unnithan

India's aerospace PSU giant is starved for orders and struggling to stay afloat. It's also now caught in a political crossfire between the Congress and the government.

Stupid self-made “crisis” that is easily solved by an order for Tejas.

If you read the bellyaching that Kangress is bullhorning for HAL, our premier PSU cannot survive without phoren screwdriver giri subcontracting! The whole article boils down to crying over losing the Rafale partnership to Ambani and the ending of the MKI contract.

Modi made the right choice to involve a private company in the Rafale deal. We need the private sector involved. Now Modi need to make a bigger decision and that is to force the Tejas down the IAF’s throat and then hold HAL’s feet to the fire for quality and delivery. It is for good of the country.

(I would also want him to salvage the MKI lines and begin our versions of the Flanker no matter what the Russians say. But this is far fetched since we never have the cohones to deviate from contract restrictions even if it meant advancement of our own national security.)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Oct 2018 16:11

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Oct 2018 21:05

Source? So the 20 FOC Mk1s won’t be built and instead the Mk1A will start from 2019-20? but the order size for the Mk1A remains 83 including 73 single and 10 twin seaters. So what happens to the 20 FOC Mk1s? That order was placed way back in 2010 and paid for by the IAF. Cannot just vanish.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 23 Oct 2018 22:02

This is LCA thread folks. Not HAL thread. Please use PSU thread. Next post will be poofed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Oct 2018 22:18

JayS, The discussion is lack of orders for fighter aircraft with the Tejas being the prime order.

Kartik its from Swarajya if you click on the picture.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Oct 2018 22:19

One question on price and costs?

Does HAL have to pay import duties on the parts and raw material imported for the building of Tejas and Su-30MKI?
What about the fully assembled Su-30MKIs and now Rafales?
And how much is the duty?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Oct 2018 01:54

ramana wrote:JayS, The discussion is lack of orders for fighter aircraft with the Tejas being the prime order.

Kartik its from Swarajya if you click on the picture.

Ah ok. And the source for that table was Ajai Shukla. I won't believe that schedule unless we see confirmation from official sources that the 20 FOC Mk1 fighters will not be built. The least that could be done would be convert those 20 into ADDITIONAL Mk1A orders, not make the entire order disappear.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Oct 2018 03:38

Kartik wrote:Source?

klick karo ji

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Oct 2018 04:43

Just a lovely click

Ananth Krishna's Twitter

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 24 Oct 2018 21:52

http://www.iai.co.il/2013/32981-49052-en/MediaRoom.aspx

IAI’S ELTA SYSTEMS AWARDED $55 MILLION-CONTRACT FOR FIRE-CONTROL RADARS IN ASIA

Is it for Tejas? Customer name not revealed

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 24 Oct 2018 23:08

Prithwiraj wrote:http://www.iai.co.il/2013/32981-49052-en/MediaRoom.aspx

IAI’S ELTA SYSTEMS AWARDED $55 MILLION-CONTRACT FOR FIRE-CONTROL RADARS IN ASIA

Is it for Tejas? Customer name not revealed

Could be for Barak-8's FCR. I think Elta manufactures that too.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Oct 2018 00:08

Trikaal wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:http://www.iai.co.il/2013/32981-49052-en/MediaRoom.aspx

IAI’S ELTA SYSTEMS AWARDED $55 MILLION-CONTRACT FOR FIRE-CONTROL RADARS IN ASIA

Is it for Tejas? Customer name not revealed
Could be for Barak-8's FCR. I think Elta manufactures that too.

Press release says:

ELTA Systems, a division and subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), has been awarded a $55-million contract for the provision of Multimode Airborne ELM-2032 Fire Control Radars to be installed on newly produced advanced combat aircraft. The radar offers a broad range of operational modes, including high-resolution mapping in SAR mode, detection, tracking, and imaging of aircraft, moving ground and sea targets. The contract is a repeat order, reflecting the customer's high satisfaction with the radar and ELTA.
The radar can be installed on a variety of airborne fighters. As one of the leading radars of its type, it is operational in many countries worldwide.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 25 Oct 2018 02:44

Yeah, my bad

Didn't open the link

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 25 Oct 2018 02:50

Are these for the 20 Mk1 FOC?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 25 Oct 2018 07:04

Kakkaji wrote:Are these for the 20 Mk1 FOC?

No, likely for the mk1a. I think the el2032s would already be contracted for the ioc and focus standard birds. Jmtp.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Oct 2018 11:41

Are the ELta 2032's for the 10 LCA Tejas Trainers beign built? These trainers will be IOC standard right?

mody · Post by **mody** » 25 Oct 2018 18:14

Aditya_V wrote:Are the ELta 2032's for the 10 LCA Tejas Trainers beign built? These trainers will be IOC standard right?

All trainers are to be FoC standard. The order for the radars is most likely for the FoC birds and trainers.
The chart above from Ajai Shukla is wrong. He has left out the 20 FoC birds.

We are going to get the following:

1). 16 IOC Planes (most likely all will be delivered by March 2019)
2). 16 FOC planes (Hopefully the production will start from April 2019, all fingers and toes crossed)
3). 8 FOC two seat Trainers (Production to start after complting no. 2 above. Hopelly complete by max March 2021)
4). 10 FOC Trainers (Production start and finish as per no.3 above. Firm order still awaited.
5). 73 MK1A (Firm order still awaited. Development ongoing. Hopefully ready for Production to start from April 2021)

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 26 Oct 2018 13:04

If there was ever a need for establishing multiple assembly lines, it is for the Tejas - they should set up 3 different lines, govt should spend to have HAL convert the existing lines to produce Tejas and produce 4-5 per year first and increase that to be 6-8 per year. That way IAF can get one squadron per year at least.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 28 Oct 2018 16:20

Except for a news item, there is no official confirmation that all 18 trainers will be FOC MK1. I think they may be IOC, FOC & MK1A as originally planned.

The only major thing left in FOC seems to be Gun firing.

All money for IOC aircraft was already spent by 2015 & substantial money of even FOC aircraft was spent. I think it's too late for reconsideration of manufacturing plans of trainers.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Oct 2018 02:18

From livefist twitter

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Oct 2018 02:22

Is that Leh?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Oct 2018 02:38

Yes it is, but can't tell if that is a SP series fighter from No.45 Squadron or one of the later LSPs.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Oct 2018 03:32

So, Q: For Mk1a, which radar specs is it for? I think we will have two versions, one is AESA (uttam) and in the interim, we will have the Elta 2032s. The Turkish order of 2032s were $3million a pop. That would mean, 18 aircrafts only it is for! so, which one?

Mk1
or
Mk1a ?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Oct 2018 03:51

Its Elta 2052 for the Tejas Mk1A. Not Uttam, nor the Elta 2032 which is a mechanically scanned array radar.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Oct 2018 06:04

Nope.. that is not what I hear from my chaiwalas.

Uttam (is almost ready!/integration) will replace the hybrid PESA 2032 (which is current).

3dmmr and uttam are given in the above pic.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Oct 2018 06:26

^^do you read QTRM?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Oct 2018 12:20

Well, we'll see if your chaiwala sources are correct or not. Would be great news if it is true. Hopefully by AI-2019 we'll know definitively. For now, all sources have indicated that it is the Elta 2052 AESA and not the 2032 mechanically scanned array radar.

nam · Post by **nam** » 30 Oct 2018 14:54

LRDE has been working on Uttam from atleast 2010. So it has been a while. They have had experience from previous LCA radar as well.

I don't know how much progress has been made on A2G mode. We can be confident of the progress if there has been flight testing, even the existing test bed. There were reports on it has been testing using chopper.

Ideally LSP2 which is planned to have the integration, should be flying a lot. It doesn't seem to be case. To add to all these confusion, LRDE has floating a ToT RFP!

All in all, it is a confusing picture based on open source data.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 30 Oct 2018 15:00

IIRC HAL Tender for LCA MK1A radars was for AESA radars. Has anyone saved the link?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Oct 2018 18:54

^even w/ a tender link (it should be searchable/findable), a logical conclusion (along with price data I posted above) should tell, that the $55 million 2032 order -is for- Mk1.

--

ps: I was unsuccessful https://hal-india.co.in/TENDERS/M__63. page error