Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 31 Oct 2018 09:31

they are going to produce way more Tejas' than they project due to delays on the AMCA and growth of rival airforces.

start planning for larger production volumes now instead of wasting billions later on imports and upgrades of outdated junk in the IAF.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Nov 2018 04:48

Go blocks.. add squadron per year on a 25 year plan. Let it be Mk1 1a, Mk2, Tejas III, AMCA, ...

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 01 Nov 2018 05:37

Yes and if planning for one sqardron a year does not happen now with all this shortage and this govt with such majority, then not sure what other conditions will make it happen - this is almost like a national emergency project that will save billions in the future, save a lot of heartache and also gives many diplomatic options, not else what else is required

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Nov 2018 20:07

nam wrote:LRDE has been working on Uttam from atleast 2010. So it has been a while. They have had experience from previous LCA radar as well.

I don't know how much progress has been made on A2G mode. We can be confident of the progress if there has been flight testing, even the existing test bed. There were reports on it has been testing using chopper.

Ideally LSP2 which is planned to have the integration, should be flying a lot. It doesn't seem to be case. To add to all these confusion, LRDE has floating a ToT RFP!

All in all, it is a confusing picture based on open source data.

is this based on only oped or chaiwala info? - [also noted earlier, that it is not just Uttam, but lsp2 also carries the new 404-IN engine]

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Nov 2018 00:10

SaiK wrote:
is this based on only oped or chaiwala info? - [also noted earlier, that it is not just Uttam, but lsp2 also carries the new 404-IN engine]

Public info from twitter. No chaiwala.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Nov 2018 04:23

if you google, 2032 is going for 2.5 to 3 mil ($). That puts at 20-22 pieces. 20 for SQ and 2 for trial? (But we have some pieces)

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 02 Nov 2018 21:03

HAL plans 3rd LCA line at Nasik to keep workforce engaged.

Conceding that its employees trained to work on fixed wing aircraft will see a reduction in work once it delivers the remaining Su-30 MKI planes Su-30 planes, HAL has now decided to open a third manufacturing line of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas at its Nashik facility, which so far has only made the Su-30. The last Su-30 will be delivered by March 2020.

TOI had reported earlier that with the Hawk and Jaguar projects already completed and just 23 of the Su-30s pending delivery, thousands of HAL workers will have little or no work until new orders come. HAL CMD R Madhavan, on Friday said: “While the repair and overhauling work at Nashik will still be there, it is true that a section of those workers will have no work. So we’ve decided to start a third LCA line at Nashik.”

The operation of the third line, however, depends on HAL getting the orders for 83 Tejas cleared by the Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC), which is currently stuck with the Cost Committee set up by the Centre, which feels that the cost quoted by HAL is too high.

“We’ve submitted all clarifications to the committee. You cannot compare the cost of the IOC (initial operational clearance) configuration, which had nothing to the FOC (final operational clearance) configuration which has a lot of new equipment added. The cost has gone up because of that. Now, if you want the moon, you will have to pay for it,” Madhavan said.

He did not, however, give out details of what HAL had quoted for each Tejas. HAL is already spending Rs 1,300 crore to augment LCA production and make 16 aircraft annually, and the third line will be part of this. “With that we hope to achieve an annual production rate of 20 planes a year,” he said.

At present HAL has orders for 40 Tejas—16 in IOC configuration and the remaining in FOC configuration—and orders for the 83 is important for the PSU to keep its production going. Madhavan said that on the rotary wing side, the PSU has enough orders to keep its workforce engaged, as reported by TOI earlier.

“We are also hopeful of bagging order for the light combat helicopter (LCH) and the light utility helicopter (LUH) in the future besides the Kamov helicopters which will be a joint venture with Russia,” he said.

Madhavan also confirmed that the PSU has more than Rs 7,000 crore dues owed by the armed forces—more than 70% of which must come from cash-strapped Indian Air Force (IAF)—and that this payment would make its cash position better.

“Just a few days ago the IAF paid Rs 2,000-odd crore which has helped our cash position, and we will be in a better position once the remaining is paid too...the army and navy owe us a negligible amount,” he said.

While conceding that the company could do with more orders than its book reflects, Madhavan said: “We generally like to have an order book that would take care of sales for about five to seven years, but the Rs 62,000 crore or Rs 64,0000 crore we have now is enough only for three-and-a-half years. That said, we are hopeful that the LCA and LCH orders come through soon,” he said.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Nov 2018 21:16

DELETED - Repeat of post above.

- jayS

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 02 Nov 2018 21:51

^^^^^
HAL may have realized serious danger to itself if a third line goes to pvt sector. Neverthless, someone please pass a tissue

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 02 Nov 2018 22:57

Just check what the Chairman of HAL said: they will set up the third line to keep the workforce occupied. So long as they had SU30 work they did not plan but are now scrambling "to keep the workforce occupied" . This in a nutshell is the reason HAL is where it is. Should be privatized lock, stock and barrel.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 02 Nov 2018 23:04

Vips wrote:Just check what the Chairman of HAL said: they will set up the third line to keep the workforce occupied. So long as they had SU30 work they did not plan but are now scrambling "to keep the workforce occupied" . This in a nutshell is the reason HAL is where it is. Should be privatized lock, stock and barrel.

yes i did read that. I guess it would have been fine if he had said
"reskill the work force to the evolving industry changes and business preferences" like they say in ITVity.
I do agree GOI should think to privatise parts of it and perhaps offer VRS to employees too, if they havent already

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 03 Nov 2018 00:27

Finally!!!! I have been saying this for so long, that HAL shouldn't get any further orders for Su-30. You can see the results coming already. As I said before, lines can be repurposed, you just need to give enough incentive. Idle employees seems to be that! Any future investment should go into Tejas only. Sustaining multiple aircraft(type) production at the same time is not feasible.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Nov 2018 00:39

this binary logic of either go public or private must end, at least in BRF. come on guys, we can provide more reasons as to why private and why public. there are ways to streamline public sector by contracting line-items, LRUs, management and even dev-prod-operations by private. Private is not there yet.. better to merge them into one assembly production engineering effort, and look at as the solution as a whole. @EOD, we don't care as long as the product quality and quantity is maintained per business needs.

privitization is different from being private

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 03 Nov 2018 15:26

At last they are doing something right, regardless of motive.

There will be way more of these planes produced than even the most optimistic estimates have planned for.

Start building it and stop wasting time. Tens of billions are wasted on imports and expensive upgrades of junk in the IAF that benefit the country in no way. At least another year is going to be wasted as the budget dept debates the LCA's cost. That year long delay will end up costing billions in imports while saving a few million on the LCA.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 03 Nov 2018 17:30

From the article posted by Vips

HAL is already spending Rs 1,300 crore to augment LCA production and make 16 aircraft annually, and the third line will be part of this

So only two lines operating?
Line one (5 aircrafts) + Line two (3 aircrafts)= 8 (Bangalore) Present
Line three (8 aircrafts) =8 (at Nasik) Future
Total 16

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Nov 2018 18:16

Modi is forcing HAL to act by stopping orders for MKI and FGFA screwdriver giri aircraft and using the private sector on the Rafale.

They thought they were going to continue screwdrivering an endless pipeline of firang planes and suddenly there is now nothing but the domestic fighter.

A new dawn in Indian aircraft manufacturing!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Nov 2018 18:49

chola wrote:Modi is forcing HAL to act by stopping orders for MKI and FGFA screwdriver giri aircraft and using the private sector on the Rafale.
!

No wonder serious posters tend to leave BRF. This kind of analysis is what BRF is reduced to now. Modi who is managing pretty ok in dealing with worst orgs like IR, OFBs, CIL, PSBs and countless other things needs to compromise on strategically important national defense plans just slap wrist of HAL. Bravo.

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Nov 2018 18:53

^^^ Slap on the wrist? More like a kick in the arse to get it moving on Tejas!

And you didn’t have to hurt my feelings so.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 03 Nov 2018 19:05

ashthor wrote:From the article posted by Vips

HAL is already spending Rs 1,300 crore to augment LCA production and make 16 aircraft annually, and the third line will be part of this
So only two lines operating?
Line one (5 aircrafts) + Line two (3 aircrafts)= 8 (Bangalore) Present
Line three (8 aircrafts) =8 (at Nasik) Future
Total 16

If HAL Nashik could make/assemble 12-15 SU30's a year then why only 8 Tejas? Plus they are setting up a new unit/production line for Tejas. What about the old one making SU30? The overhauling work of SU30 would at best occupy half the assembly lines with BRD also doing the work. why target such low numbers for Tejas?

By spreading the production of Tejas over many years it seems the HAL Chairman wants to ensure the annual dividend check handing over/photo op opportunity to as many years as possible.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Nov 2018 19:19

We have been over this so many times.

Line 1 = 5 (original) + 3 (extended in Kiran Hanger)
Line 2 = 8 (previous Hawk line)
Line 3 = ? (Proposed in Nashik)

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 03 Nov 2018 20:48

Its not about how many Tejas over different lines. its about setting production number low/year to spread it over multiple years and (milk the cow over many years)

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 03 Nov 2018 22:13

There was supposed to be a new Production line in Nekkundi...which according to the reports
looks like being shifted to Nasik.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Nov 2018 23:21

ashthor wrote:There was supposed to be a new Production line in Nekkundi...which according to the reports
looks like being shifted to Nasik.

You ought to revisit some of the old discussions couple of yrs back. That was the second line which was to be made with money from HAL, IAF and IN. HAL is creating that line in Hawk assembly hanger after Hawk production run was over. This is new line, which may be totally HAL's own initiative.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 03 Nov 2018 23:41

Time to cut HAL some slack. If HAL chief today says that third line shall come up in Nasik in 2020, the decision was taken probably months or year ago. Given how fluid things have been on Tejas, not too bad on advance planning front. It shows growing commitment of Air Force, confidence of HAL, and push from MOD on Tejas.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 03 Nov 2018 23:56

Even though the end result is same I am appalled at the reason that HAL is giving for the new line- to keep its soon to be idle workforce engaged (or still better to not loose skill). It is not that it’s primary customer or the country is severely down on numbers and want to meet that requirement, or to make LCA more successful etc. it is miracle that lca is joining service!!

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Nov 2018 09:25

fanne wrote:Even though the end result is same I am appalled at the reason that HAL is giving for the new line- to keep its soon to be idle workforce engaged (or still better to not loose skill). It is not that it’s primary customer or the country is severely down on numbers and want to meet that requirement, or to make LCA more successful etc. it is miracle that lca is joining service!!

That end result is not HAL’s prefered path. It was engineered by the Modi administration.

Please read HAL’s sob story being taken up by Congress. They are blasting Modi for not giving HAL the Rafale JV, for not ordering more MKIs and for not continuing with FGFA.

Now there is no excuse for not building the Tejas and building them in numbers.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 04 Nov 2018 12:46

JayS wrote:
ashthor wrote:There was supposed to be a new Production line in Nekkundi...which according to the reports
looks like being shifted to Nasik.
You ought to revisit some of the old discussions couple of yrs back. That was the second line which was to be made with money from HAL, IAF and IN. HAL is creating that line in Hawk assembly hanger after Hawk production run was over. This is new line, which may be totally HAL's own initiative.

again quoting

make 16 aircraft annually, and the third line will be part of this

Its 8 now at Bangalore
Next 8 at Nasik for a total of 16

Just quoting what is being written.

http://zeenews.india.com/india/lca-teja ... 28901.html

from the article

Indian Air Force (IAF) is grappling with a shortage of fighter aircraft and to tide over the situation the government had sanctioned Rs 1381.04 crore in March 2017 to ramp up the production of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas from the existing eight jets per year to 16.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=181180

For ramping up production capacity from existing 8 aircraft to 16 aircraft per annum, Government of India (GoI) has sanctioned Rs.1381.04 Crore in March, 2017.

Again from the article posted by Vips

HAL is already spending Rs 1,300 crore to augment LCA production and make 16 aircraft annually, and the third line will be part of this

Instead of visiting discussion held couple of years back i am posting present reports.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Nov 2018 13:05

This report is wrong in the targeted number per year. They plan to get to 16 per annum from Bangalore alone.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 04 Nov 2018 13:12

Indranil wrote:This report is wrong in the targeted number per year. They plan to get to 16 per annum from Bangalore alone.

Could be....letting it rest here till further clarity emerges.
Strange that pib.nic.in could be wrong.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 04 Nov 2018 13:52

JayS wrote:We have been over this so many times.

Line 1 = 5 (original) + 3 (extended in Kiran Hanger)
Line 2 = 8 (previous Hawk line)
Line 3 = ? (Proposed in Nashik)

Yah Khuda !!
We are not doing this again are we

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 04 Nov 2018 13:59

ashthor wrote:
JayS wrote:
You ought to revisit some of the old discussions couple of yrs back. That was the second line which was to be made with money from HAL, IAF and IN. HAL is creating that line in Hawk assembly hanger after Hawk production run was over. This is new line, which may be totally HAL's own initiative.
again quoting

make 16 aircraft annually, and the third line will be part of this
Its 8 now at Bangalore
Next 8 at Nasik for a total of 16

Just quoting what is being written.

http://zeenews.india.com/india/lca-teja ... 28901.html

from the article
Indian Air Force (IAF) is grappling with a shortage of fighter aircraft and to tide over the situation the government had sanctioned Rs 1381.04 crore in March 2017 to ramp up the production of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas from the existing eight jets per year to 16.
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=181180

For ramping up production capacity from existing 8 aircraft to 16 aircraft per annum, Government of India (GoI) has sanctioned Rs.1381.04 Crore in March, 2017.
Again from the article posted by Vips
HAL is already spending Rs 1,300 crore to augment LCA production and make 16 aircraft annually, and the third line will be part of this
Instead of visiting discussion held couple of years back i am posting present reports.

Thumb Rule number 1 - you dont take DDM at face value.
Thumb Rule number 2 - you do some thinking and googling before posting.

If all posters follow them, we wont have to go through the same repetative cycles of posts discussing same matter over and over again which adds no real value to the threads here.

If you really are interested in knowing LCA saga, i highly recommend going through entire LCA thread history. Its time consuming and painful but worth it. IR has answered for now anyway.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 04 Nov 2018 14:14

ashthor wrote:
Indranil wrote:This report is wrong in the targeted number per year. They plan to get to 16 per annum from Bangalore alone.
Could be....letting it rest here till further clarity emerges.
Strange that pib.nic.in could be wrong.

Pib report is not wrong, the other one is.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Nov 2018 11:04

Another stunner from Deb Rana. Touch and go for NLCA. Talk about complex aerodynamics. LevCon setting for max sink rate. Max Elevon (and slats) deviations for max pitch rate. They are targeting 4m sec sink rate. Who here thinks that our fellows don't understand aerodynamics?

Link to original post: Click here

nits · Post by **nits** » 05 Nov 2018 13:10

Tejas on IAF Insta

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Nov 2018 13:32

Perhaps we/i should simply post production targets once every quarter. Anyways we have discussions on them with someone in msm putting some random quote. IR jays and ramana all have posted it a number of times it is fine too have poor memory but....

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Nov 2018 00:04

Is that landing with the arresting hook integrated? Seems like it could be, but the dust completely shrouds it.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Nov 2018 04:35

Yes Kartik, the hook is integrated. Rolling arrests have been done. They want to reach a sink rate of 5 m/sec before trying a full on engagement.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 06 Nov 2018 10:49

R Madhavan interview.

Quoting only Tejas related

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 519082.cms

About Tejas

What are HAL’s plans on augmenting the LCA line and integrating it with a new AESA radar?
We are increasing the capacity from producing eight aircraft a year to 16 a year. We are spending Rs 1,380 crore to increase production and can even take it to 20 aircraft per year by running extra shifts. A third line is also being planned at Nashik in case we get larger orders. In fact, we have already ordered the jigs and fixtures for Nashik. Even though we can make 16 aircraft a year, we cannot sell more than seven as the final operational clearances are still stuck. The aeronautical development agency is in talks with stakeholders to resolve that. On the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, the technical aspects and commercial negotiations with a foreign vendor are now complete. We are hoping to place the order very soon. Of course, whenever an indigenous radar is ready, we will be happy to integrate it.

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 Nov 2018 10:57

good to hear about 3rd line being operational; may be 3 years down the line we can use half capacity of 3rd line for exports...

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 06 Nov 2018 11:05

On the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, the technical aspects and commercial negotiations with a foreign vendor are now complete. We are hoping to place the order very soon.

Thank god. One less thing to worry about now.