INS Arihant: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3671
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Kashi »

Why's he burning?
hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4633
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

Prasad wrote:Image
Ever since this came out, been wanting to post a pic of Russia's Podmoskovye (BS 64). Turns out I had posted before: an old post of mine


Image

Image

The aft taper and hump of Arihant seem closest to this evolved Delta IV
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8236
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by disha »

Lisa wrote: Mao's theory on atomic bomb: They can't kill us all

https://newspaperarchive.com/morgantown ... -1964-p-2/
"What if they killed 300 million of us? We would still have many people left." :shock:
Well Mao did manage to kill millions of Chinese! Point is everybaki can prattle around saying that
I will kill you all, and the last man surviving will be Dr. Strangelove
The only response to such bakis is a calm and quite response,
bliss try to do it
Note that chinese invaded India in 1962, had the bum by 1968 and still twiddled their fingers in 1971. Go figure.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

this is a very unusual refit, because the regular deltaIV carry the sineva missile and have a very tall boxy hump. not a all streamlined like this vessel. looks it it does not cart missiles anymore, but may have sea facing chambers wet chambers for commando and snooping equiment / underwater robots.
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4053
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

Kashi wrote:Why's he burning?
I guess hatred for this govt. Manifesting as rafale and any issue
Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3671
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Kashi »

But this specific burn that you tried to call out, was it about Arihant?
barath_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 03 Apr 2017 10:40

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by barath_s »

ramana wrote:Bararth_s,

I did not know about the K4 hangfire in Dec 2017. Besides you posted after my post.


I vehmently object to your attributing motives to me..
I dint have to be selective of facts.

I suggest you apologize.
I dont take such things lightly.

Ramana
Ramana

I suggest you go back and re-read. There is always an or clause and it was not done with disrespect. And no, I am not going to apologize, just because you suggest I should and you do not take things lightly.

I've been around bharat rakshak for well over a decade, and have seen the quality drop and people leave/character of the board change, and have taken breaks away from it as well as a result. No sleep lost.

As moderator and as commenter, you can decide what kind of community you would like and what kind of example you would like to set.

If you did not know of the K4 hangfire (which is in basic locations like wiki), I would assume you knew of only the two test firings that you linked (eg not the 3rd back in 2014). And 2-3 are usually not enough for operationalization (though I understand one cannot assume that there weren't others or of obfuscation or of firings one had missed). Then you missed it and it was not done intentionally. No big deal. It's just a chat board.

heck, we cannot all of us always be expert in everything; god knows i have missed enough and made enough mistakes. But I do try and learn.
ramana wrote:
Besides you posted after my post.
And ? This is a non-sequitor.
barath_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 03 Apr 2017 10:40

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by barath_s »

Rakesh wrote: Saar, my bad. Justify is the wrong term. Perhaps obfuscation would be a better term. But the idea that water can enter through a open hatch - during a dive - makes no sense whatsoever. No alarm, no fail safe measure. That is highly improbable. The open hatch story is an excuse.
What would you make of SSN Guitarro ?

Water entered during trim/calibration and the boat sank (!) while at dock. The Arihant was in harbor and water only entered to the propulsion area as per the story. I doubt if you have fail safes or sensors everywhere ...
prasannasimha
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1214
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by prasannasimha »

For those who doubt wrt K4. Have a look at this carefully.

Image
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

I get it....I can see a loading crane lifting a huge white+black missile into position for going in the tube.
the missile seems to be taper down in 3rd stage and then have a fatter white section like a PSLV payload fairing.

is this image on google earth?

Image

Image
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

the zebra dazzler pattern on the telescopes is similar to the los angeles class subs operating in the artic and german u-boats off norway from past memories of comics

Image
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3113
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

ArjunPandit wrote:^^meanwhile shooklaw is burning with anger on twitter. Does not respond to me when i call his lies out.
I unfollowed him a long time ago. That man is bitter like everyone with a sense of entitlement in Lutyens Delhi.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

Tull sir I found your image on google earth. if you open below link from chrome browser, the white stick seems like a gangway only not the arm of a crane

https://earth.google.com/web/@17.709184 ... 7311t,360r

the white pipey thing seems like some electrical or AC system plugged into a rear hatch from outside. maybe it supplies hotel cooling and electric power to the sub dockside.
Suresh S
BRFite
Posts: 857
Joined: 25 Dec 2008 22:19

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Suresh S »

Ramana Empty vessels make a lot of noise. I do not know what this professor is trying to say. He says nothing but says it so well.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

barath_s wrote:What would you make of SSN Guitarro ?

Water entered during trim/calibration and the boat sank (!) while at dock. The Arihant was in harbor and water only entered to the propulsion area as per the story. I doubt if you have fail safes or sensors everywhere ...
That is the official story ;)

For the sake of clarity, I post this for other readers....

INS Arihant left crippled after ‘accident’ 10 months ago
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 392049.ece
Arihant’s propulsion compartment was damaged after water entered it, according to details available with The Hindu. A naval source said water rushed in as a hatch on the rear side was left open by mistake while it was at harbour.
But then, you have this...

Deep diving into the facts about INS Arihant 'accident'
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 468708.cms
First, the news item stated that the Arihant’s propulsion compartment was damaged after water entered it, as a hatch on the rear side was left open by mistake. The submarine has no hatches there. The Arihant is based on Russian double hull design with a sealed nuclear reactor section. Except for the latest French nuclear submarines that have a hatch above the reactor for quicker refuelling, no other country with nuclear submarines have such a system. Although the Arihant’s core is not designed to operate for the submarine’s lifetime and will need refuelling, it does not have a hatch. To refuel, the hull will have to be cut open and welded back, as is the case for the Russian nuclear attack submarine, the Akula-II class that India has leased and operates as INS Chakra.
The story of a hatch being left open by mistake is a hoax. If security on the Arihant boat is this lax, next we will hear of a missle hatch on the Arihant left open by mistake :)
barath_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 03 Apr 2017 10:40

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by barath_s »

Yeah, the 'Deep diving into the facts ' article was illogical.

No one said water got into the nuclear reactor compartment (strawman), there are missile hatches at the rear of the sub (have to be to launch missiles and load them). At least if you count aft of the sail as rear. (I would not call them at the front at any rate) That doesn't mean water from such a hatch is getting piped to a propulsion compartment, but it does speak to the article credibility or perhaps purpose.

The reactor vessel/core is part of the propulsion system, but there are other parts that do not need to be behind radiation shielding and aren't.

So you are left with a believe what you want to situation.

Wherein what you believe probably says more about you than about reality....

And that is before we start speculation on who wrote and published such an article, WHY, and what was the level of knowledge or otherwise
Last edited by barath_s on 09 Nov 2018 19:44, edited 4 times in total.
Nikhil_Naya
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 59
Joined: 06 Nov 2018 16:44

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

On this 'story' of the hatch being left open and the SS02 being Flooded, could this be a ruse for ensuring SS03 is able to move out for fitting (out of the covered space while SS04 hull is getting ready - to make it look like the SS03 is the SS02, while SS02 is merrily testing itself out in some waters. This also aids the SS02 which if in waters friendly or unfriendly, if visible/found for whatever reason is mistaken to be something else (as the signatures most probably wont be available).
This of course is just a speculation :)
And my first post from my new ID (forgot the old password and the old email no longer works :)
RKumar

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by RKumar »

Rakesh wrote: The story of a hatch being left open by mistake is a hoax. If security on the Arihant boat is this lax, next we will hear of a missle hatch on the Arihant left open by mistake :)
Minor adjustment and God forbid :
If security on the Arihant boat is this lax, next we will hear of a missle fired from a hatch on the Arihant left open by mistake :)
prasannasimha
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1214
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by prasannasimha »

The horizontal white structure is a gangway. You have to concentrate on the open hatch.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

By the way, I messed up BIG TIME. I kept stating that the hatch was open during a dive. That is incorrect. My sincere apologies.

As per the news article, the hatch was open while at dock and water entered in. But still, I cannot buy that story :)
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

barath_s wrote:Yeah, the 'Deep diving into the facts ' article was illogical.
......
And that is before we start speculation on who wrote and published such an article, WHY, and what was the level of knowledge or otherwise
Folks will write articles for a variety of "vested" reasons. I am sure you remember the lifafa/hit piece on the Tejas last year, which was soundly refuted on BRF. Now in the Rafale thread, Ajai Shukla is stating that the NDA paid 40% more than the UPA, on the Rafale deal. Despite having zero evidence to prove otherwise.
prasannasimha
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1214
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by prasannasimha »

Thinking spy versus spy was this a signal to some people that the "hatch was opened" (K4 loaded or fired)
Probably a visit by RAW may be required or was done thereafter to the sources for this story. seeing its proximity to Doklam incident makes me wonder.
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4053
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

RKumar wrote:
Rakesh wrote: The story of a hatch being left open by mistake is a hoax. If security on the Arihant boat is this lax, next we will hear of a missle hatch on the Arihant left open by mistake :)
Minor adjustment and God forbid :
If security on the Arihant boat is this lax, next we will hear of a missle fired from a hatch on the Arihant left open by mistake :)
Non state actors of course
sivab
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by sivab »

barath_s wrote:If you have actual updated information, do please link.
Sorry, not going to spoon feed you.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

I am amazed at the bickering here with so little information. Nobody in the open source knows the current state of K-4 testing/integration. Yet ...
Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2223
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

And there isn't a single clear picture of K-4 available
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Baarath_S
You are rude and disrespectful.
The forum does not need such people who attribute motives to admins.
I gave you an out but you persist.

I am banning you.
Bye.
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4053
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

-Edited by Karan M

Arjun, your intervention was neither asked for nor warranted and is hence quite impolite.

If a moderator makes a decision, it has been done after due process. Please take this as a formal statement not to constantly second guess moderator decisions in the future.

Thanks,
Karan M
********************
Please dont edit a post after the mod has edited it and asked for the side track to end and no more OT posts. I repeat, constantly questioning mods decisions is neither asked for nor welcome as it vitiates forum discipline, even if that wasn't your intent. Please dont do so again. I understand and appreciate your point that you didn't mean to provoke any further trouble but let's stop this OT now.
Last edited by ArjunPandit on 11 Nov 2018 03:24, edited 2 times in total.
pkudva
BRFite
Posts: 170
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 13:57

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by pkudva »

ramana wrote:Baarath_S
You are rude and disrespectful.
The forum does not need such people who attribute motives to admins.
I gave you an out but you persist.

I am banning you.
Bye.
I have been following BR for more than a Decade( Approx 15+ Yrs )....I must say this is one of the best forums to be into and read.

The Rights and Views of the Moderator are to be respected.

Best Wishes,

Kudva
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20772
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Asking Ramana to "go easy on the banning" is disrespectful. I was going to interject to ask Barath S to not make unfounded allegations against a fellow member and moderator, merely because he perceived the person missed any point. He could have responded to Ramana's point with a polite reply stating he meant no offense. Instead he doubled down on the behavior. Many forums would have a warning for the first reply itself. IMHO, he got a lot of slack from ramana and disregarded it.

Please stick to the topic and get back on track, thank you.
Snehashis
BRFite
Posts: 200
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Snehashis »

Security Scan - INS Arihant

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4570
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by arshyam »

Found this on the Hindu's homepage. Review the following before (gingerly) stepping into the article...

Unnecessary, destabilising and expensive - Suvrat Raju, The Hindu
However, this strategic function makes little sense in the modern Indian context. There is no realistic threat, which the Arihant could counter, that could wipe out India’s existing nuclear deterrent. The range of the missiles carried by the Arihant is about 750 km, and so it can only target Pakistan and perhaps China.
Much of the rest of the world has moved to outlaw nuclear weapons. Last year, 122 nations voted in favour of the “Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons”. The Indian government skipped these negotiations claiming, nevertheless, that it was “committed to universal... nuclear disarmament”. So the government’s active pursuit of nuclear-armed submarines undermines India’s stated international position and reflects a security assessment that is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
As a differing opinion, these comments were par for the course, with some big holes in these arguments. But the following took it from a leftist China-pasand Hindu to BBC territory. Sound familiar? :lol:
It is senseless to spend this money on nuclear submarines when thousands of lives are lost each year because the state pleads that it lacks resources for basic health care and nutrition.
Suvrat Raju, a theoretical physicist associated with the Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and Peace, is based in Bengaluru. The views expressed are personal
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

If you rearrange the first name ('suvra') of the author , you will get the gist of who this A**h**e is. Unfortunately India has to suffer such fools.
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4053
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

Vips wrote:If you rearrange the first name ('suvra') of the author , you will get the gist of who this A**h**e is. Unfortunately India has to suffer such fools.
there's a rat too
dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by dinesh_kimar »

Arihant's capabilities, performance and offensive weapons are unknown, and in the relam of speculation, hotly discussed on various internet forums.

Why, even the shape of the boat is still being discussed, a decade after launch.

But, when the Prime Minister calls a press conference and declares the nuclear triad operational, it surely means something.

About 7-8 years back (before Agni 5 testing), Chinese scholars used to argue that India's stated deterence was a 1500-2000 km IRBM with 50 kt, and India ought not to test anything bigger and "upset the balance".

They were trying to force our planners to not cross this threshold in interest of " Good neighbourly relations".

Obviously, no mention of various DF series missiles developed by China, or their nuclear yields were mentioned.

If Arihant and Agni we're not available, i imagine Doklam crisis would have gone differently.

Suvrat Raju has not mentioned these aspects, nor addressed Chinese intentions in his article.

We have seen with our own eyes Chinese belligerence in Doklam, trying to nibble Bhutan territory to gain strategic superiority on Indian positions.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25085
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

arshyam wrote:Found this on the Hindu's homepage. Review the following before (gingerly) stepping into the article...

Unnecessary, destabilising and expensive - Suvrat Raju, The Hindu
Read the comments.
krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 917
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by krishna_krishna »

SSridhar wrote:. quote="arshyam"
Read the comments.

Do more need to be said :

"Suvrat Raju, a theoretical physicist associated with the Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and Peace, is based in Bengaluru. The views expressed are personal"

"The Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and Peace (CNDP) is India’s national network of over 200 organisations, including grassroots groups, mass movements and advocacy organisations, as well as individuals. Formed in November 2000, CNDP demands that India and Pakistan roll back their nuclear weapons programmes. Our emphasis:

No to further nuclear testing
No to induction and deployment of nuclear weapons
Yes to global and regional nuclear disarmament
CNDP works to raise mass awareness through schools and colleges programmes, publications, audio and visual materials, and campaigning and lobbying at various levels."
dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by dinesh_kimar »

5 Main Sources of Noise in a Nuclear Submarine (Something to think about from Arihant perspective. Source: Norman Polmar)

Machinery: reactor, cooling pumps and fluid thru pipes, unbalanced machinery and poorly finished gears meshing with each other.

Propeller: cavitation noise

Hydrodynamic: flow over hull surfaces, sails, etc.

Transient Perturbations: due to opening torpedo hatches, movement of control surfaces, etc.

Crew: opening hatch loudly, dropping of tools.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by SaiK »

Q. At what stage is the plan to build indige- nous nuclear-powered attack submarines?

We are looking at six SSNs (Nuclear- Powered Attack Submarines). It is part of the 30-year submarine building plan (to build 24 submarines, 18 conventional and 6 nuclear). It is at a design stage. The launch of the first SSN is over 10 years away

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/magazine/ ... 2018-11-17
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6088
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

From the interview, above.

China’s economy is more than six times that of ours and their defence budget is more than five times that of ours; they are investing large sums in developing maritime capability.

That seems to be comparing Chinese PPP GDP to India's dollar GDP. Chinese US $ GDP is closer to $9 trillion, India's is approaching $3 trillion. China is ahead but not insurmountably so. For perspective Pakistan's dollar GDP has shrunk 20 % this year, from 300 billion to 240 billion.
Post Reply