Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 17:21

to be fair the cheeni coin looks more table than our bisleri. its mostly to do with the dedicated HSR track.

nice to see the tfta swedes whining for what they can no more get. paisa kaha se milega babua? duniya ko aur to loot nehi sakte ho.

hope driver cab views are uploaded in next few hours - never thought I would be alive to see this day

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 02 Dec 2018 18:27

i find it very hard to believe the Chini coin video. But then there's a lie in be'lie've, probably more so in the case of chinese, because US media tells me so. The thing with that TFTA video is either it required a good video with some trick or it would have required lot of stabilization. Let's get going in this direction, these things will come eventually. Not that we are going to keep a coin on window throughout the journey and see if it falls or not. Even if it falls, as long as we reach earlier than what it takes now thats good enough for now.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 02 Dec 2018 18:50

There are plenty of such videos, here's one from Japan:

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 19:27

less noise and vibration => less fatigue both of machinery and humans.

will be useful for the 10 hour chair car "longsword" kind of semi HSR plays like patna to dilli or ahmedabad to dilli

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 02 Dec 2018 19:34

Train 18 hitting 180 kmph. Decent stability as well.
Really waiting to see the 'Coin Stability check' in our HSR.

Incredible. Just incredible!!!
Out goes the Oiropeans yet again

The dude on the seat seems scared stiff

Indian Railways not used to moving this fast!

T18 is just screaming through the Indian landscape demolishing all pre-established notions.

200 abhi door nahin. But will they do it

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 02 Dec 2018 19:34

Now ICF should start working on tilting technology. Partner with Japan or Germany if required. Train 18 can be upgraded to 200 kmph tilting train. It will further reduce time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 20:00

>> The dude on the seat seems scared stiff

yes i felt he was a bit tense too. not daring to look around much, just holding his breath and tummy a bit. hoping the journey ends soon...like being strapped to a roller coaster

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 20:02

we really need to get cracking on the fencing plans. all it needs is a tractor or truck trying to sneak across to cause a major accident. the driver is being forced to overuse the horn as a precaution, causing noise pollution. at night even more risky.

with fencing in place he need to blow horn only for stations and emergencies.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 20:25

if I read the tea leaves right , the italians and probably everyone else uses light duty wire mesh fences along their HSR tracks - 250-300kmph std using their smaller rail guage. works fine with a disciplined population.

but in india
- someone might cut and steal such wire fences, leaving behind a "road" for others to infiltrate
- someone might cut to create such "shortcuts" not to steal

in urban pockets they will use concrete walls as states by rail minister. but what to do in rural areas is a open issue.

one option is heavy duty multi layer LOC type barbed wire fencing, with some light electric current sensor that triggers a intrusion alarm at the nearest control center (station or manned level crossing)

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 02 Dec 2018 20:33

Singha wrote:we really need to get cracking on the fencing plans. all it needs is a tractor or truck trying to sneak across to cause a major accident. the driver is being forced to overuse the horn as a precaution, causing noise pollution. at night even more risky.

with fencing in place he need to blow horn only for stations and emergencies.

Yep. People/tractors/buses routinely used to crossing tracks (As it happens now) are not going to factor in the 2X increase in speed. THey will continue to do their thing at the previous pace....with bad consequences. THe other thing is that all other trains (over 90%? )will still be the old (slower) speed. The heroes trying to cross tracks so they can save 3 minutes of their very busy life will not know ahead of time which is the fast one and which is the slow one (will come much more often) and the occasional fast one will surprise them. The train driver will unfortunately have to use the horn. And this is only at level crossings manned or unmanned. What about the rest of the track...probably 90% or more of the track length anywhere in India passes within 1 kilometer of human habitation or human activity (agricultural fields). Probably the entire route has to be fenced.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 02 Dec 2018 20:36

We will hopefully catch up ultimately to the dangers of stepping across a semi-HSR line

If this is going to run on the Delhi-Bhopal Shatabdi route from ~~Dec 15th~~ January at 160kmph, I guess they have already reinforced the tracks. And they will do the same for all Shatabdi routes across India in the next few months. Along with extended safety mechanisms like train protection warning and detection etc.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 02 Dec 2018 20:43

A Nandy wrote:
Train 18 hitting 180 kmph. Decent stability as well.
Really waiting to see the 'Coin Stability check' in our HSR.
Incredible. Just incredible!!!
Out goes the Oiropeans yet again

The dude on the seat seems scared stiff
Indian Railways not used to moving this fast!

T18 is just screaming through the Indian landscape demolishing all pre-established notions.

200 abhi door nahin. But will they do it

IR has plans to do the 200 KMPH with the Aluminium bodied T20 Train (Sleeper class)

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 02 Dec 2018 20:55

Ok, now that the uttejit-ness is wearing off a bit, some news:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... Ax9xN.html

Designed to run at 160 kmph, the Train 18 breached the 180 kmph mark in the Kota-Sawai Madhopur section.

“We expect Train 18 to commence its commercial run from January 2019. Normally the trials take three months. But now it is happening faster than expected,” News agency PTI quoted Mani as saying.

Initially, the Railways will roll out two Train 18s with 16-17 coaches each.

Train 18 is capable of touching 200 kmph but tracks in the Indian Railways’ network will need to be upgraded for that.

According to a (which) report, only 0.3% of India’s rail tracks, spread over 60,000 km, are fit to handle trains running at the speed of up to 160 km per hour.

https://twitter.com/ManiSudhanshu58/sta ... 8809163777

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 20:58

the immediate catalyst for fencing is the amritsar tragedy. but over last 3 years it is reported 50,000 people got killed by trains for various reasons

https://www.financialexpress.com/infras ... h/1386378/

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 21:07

PrithvisAccount
1 hour ago
They need to measure the aerodynamic performance of the nose cone as well. Speed tests should have happened with nose cones put on.

Nithin Vikraman
Nithin Vikraman
48 minutes ago (edited)
They might have done using the computer modelling. Also air drag plays important role in speed North of 200 KMPH and is not much of the factor in lower speed.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 02 Dec 2018 21:14

If they did it without the cone, it can only get more efficient with it no?

Meanwhile up at NE:

1st freight train ran on Bogibeel Bridge, India's longest road-cum-rail bridge with a phenomenal stretch of 4.94 kilometres, connecting Assam with Arunachal Pradesh & opening the doors to enhanced connectivity in the North-East

https://twitter.com/PiyushGoyal/status/ ... 8755478528

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Dec 2018 22:18

It seems fairly clear at this point that further speed gains are not a matter of the train itself but the track . Ballastless continuously welded rail tracks bedded with laser based XYZ axis precision are a requirement for HSR or even speeds of 200+. Train 18 itself could do 220–225km/h top speed like RENFE Alvia services that it reminds me of.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 22:26

if we can move that paltry 0.3% of track km capable of semi-hsr to 15%, we will be in business.

adding more trainsets is the easiest part of the job.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 02 Dec 2018 23:16

First thing would be to convert these routes into 200 kmph capable tracks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shatabdi_ ... bdi_trains

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Dec 2018 23:34

Both track and signalling need updates. In cab signalling via a train control system using balises and other means is a requirement. The Chinese pretty much did what they do best here - reverse engineered ETCS to create their CTCS standards. In fact their HSR collision incident was partly a result of signalling not working properly because of a combination of blackbox ETCS gear and their own not working together well, which they blamed it on 'lightning strike causing damage'.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 23:36

Ministry of Railways
‏
Verified account

@RailMinIndia
Nov 23
More
Hon’ble MR Sri Piyush Goyal,paid a surprise visit to DLW, Varanasi. He inspected two path breaking prototype locomotives of WAGC3 and WAG11 class of 10,000 and 12,000 hp respectively created indigenously by converting existing diesel locomotive in to upgraded electric locomotive.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 23:45

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2018 23:47

worthwhile upgrades to take advantage of more electrified sections.
the WDG4 & WDM3 being diesel electric already has the motors and transformers in place. they would remove engine, fuel tank and generator and put in pantograph - will end up lighter

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Dec 2018 23:59

I’m very interested in knowing what kind of power electricals and traction motors they have in Train 18 or even WAG-11 or WAG-12. The latter is presumably Alstom gear, but for Train 18, I hope they have or will have local gear rather than stuff from usual industry leaders like Hitachi and Toshiba .

Train 18 is no slapdash jugaad job - it went from 30km/h low speed trials to almost hitting the Indian national rail speed record set by the Talgo imported test trainset, within a matter of 2-3 weeks . Given the right tracks, it could easily do 200km/h like it’s semi HSR contemporaries elsewhere .

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 03 Dec 2018 00:28

The video posted above states that it is BHEL motors for WAG 11. Remember that WCAM3p of CR and WR were from BHEL.

While Kapurthala graduated to LHB, ICF was doing older coaches up until a few years back. Heard a few whines from x ICF relatives some 8 years ago. Wonder with the upgrade in ICF, lot of new stuff coming out. aC emu for Mumbai now train 18. Is Train 18 a marriage b/w the traditional EMU capabilities of ICF and the newly upgraded LHB capability. Did ICF acquire any other new tech other than LHB?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 03 Dec 2018 04:05

Karthik S wrote:

Train 18 hitting 180 kmph. Decent stability as well.
Really waiting to see the 'Coin Stability check' in our HSR.

Desi HSR stability test!!!

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 03 Dec 2018 04:10

That coin stability thing will only fully materialize on newer generation track infrastructure.

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Dec 2018 04:16

A clone of Train 18 suburban train for Mumbai is coming up in Dec 18.. From the horse's mouth

https://twitter.com/ManiSudhanshu58/sta ... 5890856960

One thing i would have wished for is a dedicate camera crew recording the event, rather than personal phone.

IR needs to invest in some PR.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 03 Dec 2018 05:17

Suraj wrote:Where is it mentioned that Train 18 coaches are based on LHB ones ? They look very different in their interiors, beyond being two metal tubes. LHB looks like the 30 year old technology it is. Train 18 is quite chic, with a large toilet and vestibule area, touch operated doors into the passenger seating areas like in Shinkansen and Euro SHSR/HSRs , and most importantly, Train 18 is an EMU and not a locomotive driven system like LHB coaches, and therefore its coaches have power electricals and motive systems in the bogies that LHB coaches don't.

Based on just how impressive Train 18 is, for something that came out of nowhere within a very short amount of time at a very low cost, I'm looking forward to seeing how Train 20/21 looks.

ICF already has experience with DEMU, EMU and MEMU. So, modifying the LHB coaches to EMUs was either already done or it was not too difficult a task. The interiors is the one where significant design must have been done.

Is the traction motor technology our own or borrowed?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2018 08:40

EMU traction motors do not need to be as tfta as a loco motor I think....because they lift the brick using army of ants vs herd of elephants approach.

I dont know details but system might also permit graceful degradation if a few motors or power components fail like a AESA radar.

mumbai local type EMU motors run under 20 hour duty cycles all year in hot, humid , dusty climate so I have no doubt we have rugged kit.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Dec 2018 09:53

I still have no reference anywhere suggesting Train 18 coaches are modified LHBs. I tried looking on Youtube, and there are some videos, but they cut in scenes of what are clearly other kinds of coaches being made (the frame and windows looked way different) so it's hard to tell. I don't think going from a coach to an EMU power car is just a matter of sticking a motor and wires underneath, so I am skeptical Train 18 has anything to do with LHB.

City MEMU traction motors have a very different load cycle from intercity ones. The former has frequent stops and accelerate to at most what - 90-100km'/h , for a minute or two ? Train 18 is going to do sustained 160-170km/h for 1-2hrs. That's a whole different work cycle, though it's certainly true that the motors don't have to be anything like the ones on the WAP5, but the consequence is that there's no other local train system already using such motors. I'd be very happy to know that it's from BHEL! WAP 5 traction motors are ABB, and WAP 4 are Hitachi.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 03 Dec 2018 09:56

With all the new/innovative designs coming from various places - ICF and various loco works - it's clear that someone has lit a fire under the leadership's comfortable chairs, and probably also loosened the purse strings. Some amount of meritocracy is surely in place, otherwise there would be more accountant types and paper pushers leading these organizations instead of hardcore engineers who don't fear experimentation and failure. That, to me, is the most positive outcome of Train-18 and WCAG Frankensteins, not discounting the direct benefits of these creations.

Suraj wrote:I still have no reference anywhere suggesting Train 18 coaches are modified LHBs... I don't think going from a coach to an EMU power car is just a matter of sticking a motor and wires underneath, so I am skeptical Train 18 has anything to do with LHB.

To those who follow this kind of stuff closely, it's kind of obvious that Train 18 coaches are built around LHB. There is a lot of experimentation going on with LHB coaches including underslung generators. The basic definition of a coach is the shell and bogies, and here Train 18 appears to be identical to LHB. Externalities like automatic doors, wide vestibules, seats, lighting, toilets, entertainment etc are only toppings which can be replaced or redesigned at will without taking away from the basic design.

LHB basic design provides an excellent platform for 160kmph operation, with possibly extending upwards till 200kmph. ICF has a lot of experience in DEMUs, not as much with EMUs but something for which expertise can be and has been acquired.

Here is one reference in a fairly reputed journal https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/new ... -test.html

Bodyshells for the air-conditioned trainset have been derived from the LHB stainless-steel coach design, but enhanced with power doors and retractable steps. Vacuum retention toilets are fitted, along with sealed inter-car gangways.

Just to be clear, I am not in any way minimizing the absolutely fantastic achievement in building Train-18.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Dec 2018 10:35

What is 'basic LHB design' and how does it differ from 'basic non-LHB design' or whatever ?

They're all coaches, and beyond some differences they all look the same - whether a Shinkansen coach or an IR standard chaircar dabba. I'd really like to see first hand statement from IR/ICF rather than guesstimations; does 'LHB derived' mean we pay them money ?

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 03 Dec 2018 11:09

Suraj wrote:What is 'basic LHB design' and how does it differ from 'basic non-LHB design' or whatever ? They're all coaches, and beyond some differences they all look the same - whether a Shinkansen coach or an IR standard chaircar dabba. I'd really like to see first hand statement from IR/ICF rather than guesstimations; does 'LHB derived' mean we pay them money ?

I have already said what it means. (1) Shell structure and (2) bogies. Bogies are the truck or "mini chassis" to which the axles/wheels are attached and that the shell rests on via a flexible shock absorbing coupling. I don't think the original LHB company is anymore, we are basically the world experts on LHB IR coaches (these were specifically designed for IR). BTW, even the bogies are somewhat secondary and can be swapped out with similar bogies from other vendors; however in this case they appear to be variants of LHB/Fiat bogies noting, of course, that the driving units have traction motors and gearing for propulsion so would be necessarily quite different from trailing bogies.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 03 Dec 2018 12:03

Per info available on IRFCA, T-18 is based on WAP-5 wheelsets (wheel+axle) and FIAT bogies with LHB coach shells. The WAP-5 wheelsets being taller apparently allow suspending the traction motors under the coaches. This looks like mere system integration, but is more complicated than it sounds. Power and weight distribution in the set has been well done - each coach is responsible for a different function: driving coach, overhead equipment and power (transformer) coach, and traction motor coach, etc. So each trainset has 4 coaches: driving coach, power coach, 2 motor coaches, and 4 sets make the 16-coach rake. Interior designs, of course are all customized, so no trace of the traditional LHB sleeper coaches.

Overall, very well done by ICF, I had always dreamed of something like this on our tracks and watching these videos was an emotional moment for lifetime rail watchers like me. Emotional because its homegrown tech and the platform is ours.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 03 Dec 2018 12:10

ICF is on a roll... new coaches for a Chennai Madurai Tejas express..

ManiSudhanshu @ManiSudhanshu58 Nov 30

Much awaited upgraded Tejas flaggd off for Egmore-Madurai route..new comfort for travellers; exquisite interiors, windows with motor-operated blinds, PIS, plug doors, sealed gangways, Infotainment on seats, good lights. TN public is very responsible; no vandalization anticipated

Source

Of all the 3, I liked this the best:

About the vandalization, fingers crossed onlee...

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 03 Dec 2018 12:13

Moar coming soon... Link

ManiSudhanshu @ManiSudhanshu58 Dec 1

Train18, Tejas done..MEMU proto with u/slung 3-ph electrics, better seats & all floor space for passengers/wide gangways+Sleek efficient air-con EMUs for Mumbai with u/slung equipment, high accl, thru passage & wide sealed gangways; a lower spd suburban clone of Train18..in Dec

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 03 Dec 2018 12:14

yensoy wrote: ICF has a lot of experience in DEMUs, not as much with EMUs but something for which expertise can be and has been acquired.

I assume EMUs are much simpler than DEMUs since in a DEMU, a diesel engine generates electricity which is used to run the traction motors. In EMUs electricity can be directly had from over head lines. EMU pretty much looks like a DEMU without a diesel motor and a generator. If ICF is an expert in DEMUs, then it should be relatively straight forward to make EMUs.

ICF already makes MEMUs for suburban trains. So other than tuning for long haul trains, they should be similar I guess.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 03 Dec 2018 12:18

Sudhanshu Mani's twitter feed is interesting. Frustration boiled over, but I'd say with justification going by the state of our media and their so-called quality of reporting.

ManiSudhanshu @ManiSudhanshu58 Dec 1

Remember the world-class DEMUs manufactured by ICF for Sri Lanka. The train has been loaded in a ship & on way..hopefully, commercial run in Sri Lanka will begin soon after due testing..and the travelling public there would appreciate the effort of team ICF & industry partners!

ManiSudhanshu @ManiSudhanshu58 Dec 1

Train18 180km/h trials on..I got active here on 18/11 mainly to counter the fake news mercenaries with a tweet,"trials started, even as fake news lumpen grumble..not just a train, it's blood, sweat & tears of ICF, it's conceptualize, design, engineer & build dream Make in India

ManiSudhanshu @ManiSudhanshu58 24h24 hours ago

Historic day for ICF and indeed Indian Railways, folks! Train 18 breached 180 km/h test successfully this morning...Thanks team ICF and Train Set+Testing directorates of RDSO..not a day of any negativity but let all the detractors, naysayers to Makle In India, go hide somewhere

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Dec 2018 12:30

yensoy wrote:I have already said what it means. (1) Shell structure and (2) bogies. Bogies are the truck or "mini chassis" to which the axles/wheels are attached and that the shell rests on via a flexible shock absorbing coupling. I don't think the original LHB company is anymore, we are basically the world experts on LHB IR coaches

There's nothing about the shell structure or bogies that's an LHB design exclusive or patented design. The point I'm trying to make here is - let's stop calling these 'LHB based' , or even bring the word LHB into this conversation. It is completely undeserved. The company LHB doesn't exist, as you said. Train 18 has nothing to do with Linke Hoffmann Bosch. There's no licensing agreement, derivative clause or anything. The 'LHB coaches' of IR are just the cookie cutter stuff that resembles what was imported from LHB long ago.

Anything the IR is making on its own now - Train 18 in this context - is ENTIRELY their own design, not LHB based or anyone else based. It's like calling all trains a 'James Watt based train' . It denigrates them despite attempts at backhanded or delayed compliments to make up for it.

The Train-18 construction videos looks little different from the videos of Shinkansen coach construction at Nippon Sharyo or elsewhere, except the latter are dealing with aluminium and not steel. Last I checked, Shinkansen is not 'LHB based'.