Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

chola · Post by **chola** » 24 Nov 2018 15:31

abhik wrote:
chola wrote:I’d like to say it is because of jobs. But we could have built two Shivaliks or two P17As to create local jobs. It doesn’t sound like it will come that much sooner. We are expecting all 7 of the P17As by 2025.

I can’t think of a damn reason. I hope Natasha was worth it to that babu.
I don't think the fact that it is going to be built in Goa is a coincident - was probably the sweetener that sealed the deal.

We could have expanded the P-17A by a few vessels and given them to GSL instead of throwing money at the Russkies. The order is already split between MDL and Garden Reach anyways. Why not expand to GSL?

nam · Post by **nam** » 24 Nov 2018 17:11

Most of the buys must be indirect payment for nuke sub components which come from Russia. Even if we buy 500 million worth for each sub, for 6 SSBN that is 3 billion. Then there is Akula lease and our SSN, which will require Russian parts. So we need to find a way to cover up 4-6 billion worth of money..

And MoD allows PSU shipyard to bid and build more ships, despite they cannot fulfill existing order and have orders to the brim. All these when private shipyards are sitting idle. I have no idea why PSU shipyard are allowed to build smaller ships and divert their manpower. They should only built large capital ships.

John · Post by **John** » 24 Nov 2018 22:54

^ I highly doubt this deal has any sub components. Russians wanted around 3 billion for 3+1 vessels it was negotiated to 1.5 billion for 2+2.

SajeevJino · Post by **SajeevJino** » 25 Nov 2018 10:12

Its clearly the Russians took around $1.5 billion for 2 ships and GSL gonna sue another $2 billion from Govt for building two more Talwars, thats it

again check out the price and weapon suite for P17A and Shivaliks , Talwars not even comes close to it

yet many here want to save the Russian face here,

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 25 Nov 2018 12:28

I think the Talwar deal is mainly to build numbers quickly. The Navy knows that the PSU shipyards will not deliver in time, hence it uses the Russian shipyards in parallel as insurance against PSU delays.

I do agree that pvt sector shipyards like L&T and Pipavav should get orders to build more warships, before the orders are given to Russians. But I don't think any orders will be issued to Pipavav before the election next year due to controversy about the Rafale deal. So, orders to russians are a politically safe bet at present.

Any news on the minesweepers deal, to be built at the Goa shipyard?

SajeevJino · Post by **SajeevJino** » 25 Nov 2018 12:59

GSL yet to finalize the foreign contractor , Korean or Italian

well the RFP is out, last update is Oct 19

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... p4n1H.html

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Nov 2018 15:40

My dream class for the Indian Navy is something that will be;

- built in large numbers (2 dozen or more)
- reasonably cheap
- reasonably capable on all domains
- long range
- Has high indian component

To this end, the config of this new "Nilgiri" class will be as follows:

Propulsion:

- Diesel (Pielstick or MAN, any which is Made in India)
- 10,000 km at 15 Knots

Weapon systems:

- 1 x IRL ASW rocket launcher or 2 x RBUs with manual reloads (i.e. no deck penetration)
- 2 x Triple tube LWT launcher or 4 x HWT 2 facing either side
- Maitri / QR-SAM or equivalent
- 1 x 76 mm cannon with strales kit
- 2 x AK-630 gatlings or possibly a second 76mm cannon
- Mareech torpedo decoy
- Kavach decoys

Sensors:

- BEL Shikari Electro optical sight
- Revathi air search radar
- Satellite link
- Usual assortment of EW and ECM gear

Lastly space for a medium naval helicopter with 2 Anti ship missiles, LWT, depth charges or alternatively commando variant with space for MARCOS tukdi

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2018 15:44

^^ your hull already exists in the form of Saryu class. it just needs to be navalized and mission equipment list you defined fitted in.

it exists, it works and more can be built. just needs the ASW kit and a SH60 helicopter(it can accomodate the sea king). fit some indian new ASM or urans to it.

while the world is investing in such long range patrol frigates we as usual stopped after building a half dozen. in the 99% peacetime use case it would be cheap solution allowing us to patrol the IOR end to end and show the flag cheaply.

seems like IN is averse to lightly armed ships like officers want to ride thoroughbred horses and never mules or donkeys. but while horses need lavish feed and care, the mules keep pulling the load all day.

chola · Post by **chola** » 27 Nov 2018 13:05

Singha wrote:^^ your hull already exists in the form of Saryu class. it just needs to be navalized and mission equipment list you defined fitted in.

it exists, it works and more can be built. just needs the ASW kit and a SH60 helicopter(it can accomodate the sea king). fit some indian new ASM or urans to it.

while the world is investing in such long range patrol frigates we as usual stopped after building a half dozen. in the 99% peacetime use case it would be cheap solution allowing us to patrol the IOR end to end and show the flag cheaply.

seems like IN is averse to lightly armed ships like officers want to ride thoroughbred horses and never mules or donkeys. but while horses need lavish feed and care, the mules keep pulling the load all day.

Agree on the Saryu. It is a good platform for both navy and coast guard, I think, with plenty of space. We need to use both gray and white ships in this brave new world.

We need to do large orders with parallel builds across multiple yards. One of the reasons we don’t have large runs is the amount of time it takes one shipyard to finish an order. It took MDL 15 years to build and the IN to commission just three Kolkatas. So imagine the time it would take if they had to build 10.

Hopefully the new process in place for P17A — parallel, modular construction with order split between MDL and GRSE — would change our industry.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 27 Nov 2018 13:37

chola wrote:...
We need to do large orders with parallel builds across multiple yards. One of the reasons we don’t have large runs is the amount of time it takes one shipyard to finish an order. It took MDL 15 years to build and the IN to commission just three Kolkatas. So imagine the time it would take if they had to build 10.

It's called a "pipeline". The first ship will take 10 years, the second just 1 year more and so on.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 27 Nov 2018 15:05

INS Rana on Overseas Deployment to Manila, Philippines

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Nov 2018 00:54

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 2885819392 ---> A different kind of Quad. BrahMos inclined launcher developed by Larsen & Toubro for Delhi Class upgrade. Each DDG to have 8 launchers, 2 quads. INS Delhi to get first launchers in 18 months.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Nov 2018 20:11

Apologies to GRSE on the ASW corvettes.The pic earlier
seen may have been that of another yard/design.A pic seen depictjng GRSE's design shows an open helideck at the stern with what appears to be a twin SR SAM ( MANPADS type) launcher amidships facing the stern.There is enough space for a ltwt. gun/ missile mount as an option.The main gun ilooks like a ltwt. 76mm Oto , with one MBU behind it , twin TTs.750t.
This is a much better design.One hopes both yard designs since the order is being split, feature the min. weaponry/ sensor requirements.

John · Post by **John** » 29 Nov 2018 20:58

Philip wrote:Apologies to GRSE on the ASW corvettes.The pic earlier
seen may have been that of another yard/design.A pic seen depictjng GRSE's design shows an open helideck at the stern with what appears to be a twin SR SAM ( MANPADS type) launcher amidships facing the stern.There is enough space for a ltwt. gun/ missile mount as an option.The main gun ilooks like a ltwt. 76mm Oto , with one MBU behind it , twin TTs.750t.
This is a much better design.One hopes both yard designs since the order is being split, feature the min. weaponry/ sensor requirements.

It's hard to say from design, there is no FCR or Surface search radar and to be honest looks to small to be an 76mm gun. Will see when we get more details.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Nov 2018 21:12

Security Scan : Stealth Frigates

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Nov 2018 21:27

World is moving to cheap good enough cots hw and open src csw deployed on rented cloud

We too need mix of whitebox and hifi grey

For hifi role we can always use the p15c punisher class

Saryu2 has got to be our aws/azure play

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Nov 2018 22:09

John, which design have you looked at?

Saryu-2 is much larger than the 750t inshore ASW corvettes.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Nov 2018 22:41

Austin wrote:Security Scan : Stealth Frigates

Nice to see Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha (retd) again.

Hope he is feeling better.

John · Post by **John** » 30 Nov 2018 02:27

Philip wrote:John, which design have you looked at?

Saryu-2 is much larger than the 750t inshore ASW corvettes.

I am kinda lost what you are talking about you are referring to 750 ton ASWSWC correct?

GRSE design seems to show a medak gun where as GSL resembles an smaller oto 76mm ( I assume it is just a placeholder).

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps ... te-emerge/

chola · Post by **chola** » 30 Nov 2018 04:35

John wrote:
Philip wrote:John, which design have you looked at?

Saryu-2 is much larger than the 750t inshore ASW corvettes.
I am kinda lost what you are talking about you are referring to 750 ton ASWSWC correct?

GRSE design seems to show a medak gun where as GSL resembles an smaller oto 76mm ( I assume it is just a placeholder).

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps ... te-emerge/

There is no Saryu-2, Singha ji was just making a hypothetical point since the Saryu order was fully delivered and on time. It is 2300-ton ship. Large for a corvette or OPV. Its successor, P21 — won by Pipavav (now own by Reliance) — is up in the air because of financial arbitration. The P21 is a smaller vessel at 1500 tons.

Considering the Pipavav/P21 mess, the Navy should look at the Saryu again and the professional job GSL did with it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Nov 2018 07:46

SARYU 2500t proven hull with most of it localized is the ideal size for a large class of patrol frigate to cover nooks and corners of the IOR including the sub antarctic regions
diesel engine so long endurance
ample and comfortable living room for crew can be designed in with better automation, with a surge capacity kept for a section of Marcos/scientists if needed

1 SH60 helicopter

all it needs to transition from CG posture to IN is a better search radar, a pack of SRSAM, a combat system / datalinks(there) , a couple of AK630(there), 4 uranium ASMs and a sonar

we can cover the 99% peace use case cheaply and in numbers.

I dont know why we are constantly fiddling around with working designs and jumping to 'the next big thing'

simpler the vessel better the uptime and less the opex. Cheen is looking to flood the IOR with its flag vessels under the guise of building relations, protecting CPEC, anti piracy etc

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Nov 2018 09:35

Maldives Rejects Report Of Plans To Allow Indian Base In Exchange For Aid

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/maldive ... -topscroll

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Dec 2018 04:13

https://twitter.com/JFDGlobal/status/10 ... 2021094400 ---> JFD has successfully completed air transportability trials for the first of two Third Generation submarine rescue systems being delivered to the Indian Navy.

JFD successfully completes milestone transportability trials for third generation submarine rescue system
https://www.jfdglobal.com/media/news-an ... cue-system

maz · Post by **maz** » 03 Dec 2018 00:48

The Reliance P21 OPV is not a 1500 ton ship. Its dimensions and displacement approximate those of the Saryu class.

The news of the successful air transport of the DSRVs has to be a source of relief to the IN bubblehead community.

While acquiring additional Frigate hulls makes sense, the decision to build them at GSL is questionable unless as some suggest, more of these hulls are planned to be acquired. It would have been far quicker and a lot cheaper to have bought the second pair directly from the Russians.

If the goal is to pressure MDL into performing, creating a frigate line at GSL is not the solution. GSL will have its hands full with OPVs and the future MCMV production lines. Instead, let L&T build these frigates if the aim is to set a new benchmark.

The primary goal should be on building more indigenous designs like the P17/17A or others with locally built systems.

For persistent and cost effective presence in its AOR, the IN needs lots of relatively cheap and expendable OPVs with a modular weapon fit and submarines.

The basic 105m OPV design is a great basis to fit clip on SSMs or ASW kit or MCM kit. Speaking of ASW, the use of suitably equipped UUVs, USVs and UAVs will greatly improve the OPVs capabilities to prosecute contacts. Clearly, the operating costs of an OPV are far lower than that of a higher end frigate or destroyer.

Similarly, if the IN were to build a suitably updated variant of the Type 209 SSK in large numbers - say 16-24 hulls - there will be a very significant increase in its deterrence ability.

In other words, if the goal of a 200-ship navy are to be realized in a cost effective and timely manner, then a rethink of the force structure is necessary. A high-medium-low mix solution with a core group of high end warfighting platforms, a somewhat greater number of medium capability warfighting platforms and large number of low end platforms is worth considering. In this regards, the involvement of competent private industry players is crucial.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 04 Dec 2018 04:07

Punitive action against Reliance firm, Navy encashes bank guarantee in vessel deal.

In a punitive action, the Navy has encashed a bank guarantee of the Reliance Naval Engineering Ltd in the Rs 3,000-crore contract for five offshore patrol vessels due to long delays in their supply, and said Monday that the deal is being examined.

"There is no preferential treatment being given to RNEL. Its bank guarantee has been encashed. Punitive action has been taken against it. The process is being taken forward," Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba said at a press conference.

The Navy Chief was asked about the huge delay in delivery of the vessels by RNEL and whether Navy is under any pressure to not initiate any action against the company.

Admiral Lanba said the deal is not being cancelled at the moment, but added that it is being looked into, indicating that government may take a call on the issue.

The original contract for the five naval offshore patrol vessels (NOPVs) was won by Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering in 2011. The company was bought over by Anil Ambani group in 2016.

Sources said the bank guarantee was 10 per cent of the size of the contract.

According to the original contract, the first vessel was to be delivered by early 2015. However, the deadline was pushed several times.

Two patrol vessels -- 'Shachi' and 'Shruti', were launched at the Reliance shipyard in Pipavav, Gujarat, last year.

RNEL was the first private sector company to obtain the licence and contract to build the patrol vessels.

The vessels were to be armed with 76mm Super Rapid Gun Mount (SRGM) system.

The primary role of NOPVs is to undertake surveillance of the country's vast Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) besides operational tasks such as anti-piracy patrols, fleet support operations, maritime security of offshore assets and coastal security operations.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 04 Dec 2018 04:11

Indigenous Aircraft Carrier-1 to be inducted into Indian Navy in 2020.

The first of the two Indigenous Aircraft Carriers (IAC) is expected to be inducted into the Indian Navy in 2020 and will be based with the Eastern Naval Command (ENC) here, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the ENC, Vice-Admiral Karambir Singh said Monday.

Addressing a press conference onboard the INS Sahyadri on the eve of Navy Day here, Singh said IAC-1 was currently being built in Kochi under the Maritime Capability Perspective Plan. A MiG-29 squadron would also be positioned at the ENC once the IAC-1 was inducted, he said.

"In keeping with the country's maritime interests, the Navy has a requirement of two operational aircraft carriers. The Maritime Capability Perspective Plan envisages a force level of three aircraft carriers to ensure availability of at least two Carrier Battle Groups at any given time," the Vice-Admiral said.

While INS Vikramaditya has already been inducted in line with this plan, IAC-1 was under construction, he said. "The case for IAC-2 is being progressed to meet all future requirements without any degradation in force levels," he added.

The Navy was building required infrastructure like berthing facilities and associated services at the ENC for IAC-1. Plans were also afoot to build a 10,000-ton ship-lift facility at the Naval Dockyard here. Once commissioned, this would be the second such facility in the country after the one at Karwar, he said.

Singh said orders were issued for building 27 warships and submarines under the Make in India initiative that would aid the capability building programme of the Navy.

"On an average, four to five warships, including submarines, are normally inducted in a year. So, the new ones are expected to be inducted in the next five or six years," he said, in reply to a question.

On the increasing positioning of rival warships in the Indian Ocean region, the ENC chief said they too enhanced deployment of ships, submarines and aircrafts.

"We have transitioned to mission-based deployments, aimed at maximising our time at sea with defined outcomes. We also have automatic identification systems in place, specially in 'choke points' like the Malabar Straits," he said.

Having designated our role in the Indian Ocean Region as the net security provider, the aim of these deployments is to have presence in relevant areas so as to secure our maritime interests and also assure our friends in the region that we are available to assist in the event of a developing situation," the Vice Admiral said.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2018 10:07

Ship lifts should be sized to 20000t and width to leave headroom for larger warships

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Dec 2018 20:54

So much struggles!? In this article or for real?

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/sto ... 2018-12-04

Are we in such dire straits?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Dec 2018 20:59

I'm all for SSBN dual use than pure SSNs.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Dec 2018 21:54

2nd Akula2 lease

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/sto ... ssion=true

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 04 Dec 2018 23:26

3.3 billion for leasing "ONE"?? That's insane. You get an AC from UK/France for that price. For 3/4 akulas on a lease - maybe. Perhaps I am being cheap, but I think it's a tad bit expensive.

John · Post by **John** » 04 Dec 2018 23:43

Cybaru wrote:3.3 billion for leasing "ONE"?? That's insane. You get an AC from UK/France for that price. For 3/4 akulas on a lease - maybe. Perhaps I am being cheap, but I think it's a tad bit expensive.

Atleast this stops usual suspects claiming about how Akula lease costs are baked into S-400, Grigorivich and Igla so we are not really overpaying for them..

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 04 Dec 2018 23:57

^^The article speaks of replacement for current chakra. I thought it would be for both the akulas

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Dec 2018 00:05

If it is the Samara, it will the Improved Akula-I which is similar to INS Chakra (ex-Nerpa).

If it is the Bratsk, it will the among the first batch of seven Akulas. The Bratsk is actually the 7th Akula I.

You guys are missing the real story here - CAATSA

This is not going to go well in the land of Khan! But that does not matter really.

Regardless, neither of them are Akula-IIs...so I am off the hook for the mithai

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Dec 2018 00:12

Unless I am mistaking, lease would mean, we get the money back when the boat is returned.

If we getting a replacement, that means we are technically paying a billion more for the rent.

It is not a buy.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Dec 2018 00:14

My understanding that is lease means sunk cost. We will not get the money back.

But the IN gets to operate a nuclear powered boat from 2022 - 2032. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Dec 2018 00:18

Cybaru wrote:3.3 billion for leasing "ONE"?? That's insane. You get an AC from UK/France for that price. For 3/4 akulas on a lease - maybe. Perhaps I am being cheap, but I think it's a tad bit expensive.

Could these be the reasons for the $3.3 billion cost? Perhaps the new lease will serve as a test bed for the Indian Navy's planned six SSN fleet.

India close to sealing Rs 23,000 crore lease deal for Russian N-sub
https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/sto ... ssion=true

The Navy will soon select one of these hulls to lease. After the Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) is signed between the two countries, the submarine will be put through an intensive 72-month deep refit and rebuild, where the nuclear reactor will be replaced and a number of indigenous systems installed on board. The INS Chakra in contrast, had a shorter four- year refit between 2004 and 2008 because it did not require a reactor replacement, usually the most challenging part of a nuclear submarine's overhaul.

All of the Indian Navy's tasks are currently performed by its single platform, the INS Chakra. The submarine was non operational for nearly a year after suffering an accident when some of the panels covering its sonar dome had sheared away while it was doing a high speed underwater run. Admiral Lanba on Monday confirmed that the Chakra had now returned to service. The vessel's ten-year lease expires in January 2022 and it is thus entirely possible that this lease could be extended for another three years to allow for the new submarine.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Dec 2018 01:52

Rakesh wrote:If it is the Samara, it will the Improved Akula-I which is similar to INS Chakra (ex-Nerpa).

If it is the Bratsk, it will the among the first batch of seven Akulas. The Bratsk is actually the 7th Akula I.

You guys are missing the real story here - CAATSA This is not going to go well in the land of Khan! But that does not matter really.

Regardless, neither of them are Akula-IIs...so I am off the hook for the mithai

Rakesh,

Irregardless head to the nearest mithai store and buy 6 pieces of good mithai and bill me later.
I would have suggested six boxes but dint want flak for your doc as to how I spoiled you.

John · Post by **John** » 05 Dec 2018 02:58

nam wrote:Unless I am mistaking, lease would mean, we get the money back when the boat is returned.

If we getting a replacement, that means we are technically paying a billion more for the rent.

It is not a buy.

I wish leases work like that, you are confusing liability with lease cost.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Dec 2018 05:43

^^^ No matter how I dissect it, $3.3B is way too much for a lease when the Vikrant costs $3.5B (so far.) We own the carrier though.

Sometimes, it seems we have a bottomless budget — as long as the gear is firang.