Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 13 Dec 2018 14:26

^^while i doubt the ct, at the same time, how many pics of tejas, Su30 have you seen on social media..taken by commoners. Most people in India wont be able to differentiate between Su30 and mig29 or even rafale

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 13 Dec 2018 14:27

The reason of retiring mig25 IIRC was availability of satellite capabilities

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 13 Dec 2018 15:04

Besides if we had the MiG 31s, why would we feel the need to hide the fact anyway

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Dec 2018 16:24

Austin wrote: Didnt expect the autopilot of Mig-25 would be so great , seems I am reading about latest civil airliner autopilot of likes of Dreamliner or NEO

yes very admirable, except for the part where it talked about entering all the data as binary! this is time consuming and error prone, however, clearly the systems themselves seem to work very well

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Dec 2018 09:56

IAF & Russian forces demonstrate operational prowess

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Dec 2018 09:59

ArjunPandit wrote:The reason of retiring mig25 IIRC was availability of satellite capabilities

Satellite can never be a substitute for air based reco specially if real time tactical intelligence is needed , We have other system of airborne reco assets.

25 was good to harress pakis during peace time too

titash · Post by **titash** » 17 Dec 2018 11:12

Austin wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:The reason of retiring mig25 IIRC was availability of satellite capabilities
Satellite can never be a substitute for air based reco specially if real time tactical intelligence is needed , We have other system of airborne reco assets.

25 was good to harress pakis during peace time too

I thought the MiG-25R was a strategic reconnaissance asset as opposed to a real-time tactical recon asset.

But yes, forcing the enemy to scramble fighters and get frustrated at being unable to make an intercept, is a definite loss...

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 17 Dec 2018 14:55

^^folks this was the reason quoted here and in MSM. Yes and i too love sonic booms over isloo and imagining musharaff cursing us in chaste punjabi afterwards

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Dec 2018 23:07

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1074664267058688002 ---> Huge step forward for cleaner, more efficient energy: India's 1st military flight using blended bio-jet fuel. Full details of the path-breaking An-32 sortie: https://bit.ly/2Qy2AR3

Reproducing the text from the Facebook link, for folks who cannot access Facebook from work....

Excellent News!

India First Military Flight Using Blended Bio-Jet Fuel Took Place Today In Bengaluru. Details in this official statement from the Indian Air Force:
On 17 December 2018, Experimental Test Pilots and Test Engineer from IAF’s premier testing establishment ASTE, flew India’s first military flight using blended bio-jet fuel on the An-32 transport aircraft. The project is a combined effort of IAF, DRDO, Directorate General Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA) and CSIR-Indian Institute of Petroleum.

On 27 July 2018, Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa, Chief of Air Staff had announced IAF’s intention to promote biojet fuels. Addressing the CII-SIDM seminar on promoting indigenised technologies, the CAS had stated that IAF intended to fly the An-32 with 10% biojet fuel on 26 Jan 2019 Republic Day flypast. The Indian Air Force carried out extensive engine tests on the ground. This is now followed by flight trials using 10% biojet blended ATF. This fuel is made from Jatropha oil sourced from Chattisgarh Biodiesel Development Authority (CBDA) and then processed at CSIR-IIP, Dehradun. IAF intends to fly the An-32 transport aircraft using biojet fuel on 26 January 2019, in the Republic Day flypast.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2018 21:59

Finally some meaty khan style shakinaw

Indian Air Force
@IAF_MCC
7h7 hours ago
More
RAPID AIRLIFT EFFORT : In an effort to evaluate its own ‘Rapid Airlift Capability’ & to enhance crew currency in the role, HQ WAC of IAF airlifted a record 463 tonnes of load from Chandigarh Airbase to airfields & drop zones in the Ladakh region, in a single wave.
Indian Air Force
‏
@IAF_MCC
7h7 hours ago
Effort was accomplished with the aid of a fleet of 16 fixed wing transport aircraft comprising of C-17, IL-76 & the Medium lift Tactical aircraft, AN-32. All aircraft were loaded & took off from Chandigarh airbase early in the morning.

wingtip to wingtip video here
https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1075051291204820993

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2018 22:12

Now I need to see another long row of blackjacks opposite this line. with weapons trolleys bringing out A2G missiles for loading.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 18 Dec 2018 22:17

Night-time paradrops with ngv videos from inside, helmet-cam, ground based videos plus photographs next would be nice. A man can dream no?

nam · Post by **nam** » 18 Dec 2018 22:19

The IL76 and An32 were involved as well. Where are they?

Even since the TFTA C17 have come, there has hardly been a image of IL76s. IAF is making sure our MoD can only see the "benefit" of C17 , when the budget pot is opened for some more transport aircraft

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 18 Dec 2018 22:33

Singha wrote:Now I need to see another long row of blackjacks opposite this line. with weapons trolleys bringing out A2G missiles for loading.

Is that you phillip?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2018 23:59

^ he is more the backfire kind.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Dec 2018 00:56

India to buy 2 Mirage 2000 aircraft from France virtually free
https://www.newsx.com/national/india-to ... ree-prices

The airforce would use the two commissioned aircrafts for in-air combats for a brief while which will depend on their serviceability. This is precisely what the inspection team would inspect. After that, the planes could be broken up and used as spare parts. Since Dassault is closing on the manufacture of Mirage-2000 aircrafts, these planes would come in handy when the IAF needs spare parts for its other Mirage-2000 crafts.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 19 Dec 2018 01:36

virtually is a big qualifier, hope it is not some predatory pricing. Nothing in this world comes free, especially in the defense world

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 19 Dec 2018 09:55

Singha wrote:Finally some meaty khan style shakinaw

Indian Air Force
@IAF_MCC
7h7 hours ago
More
RAPID AIRLIFT EFFORT : In an effort to evaluate its own ‘Rapid Airlift Capability’ & to enhance crew currency in the role, HQ WAC of IAF airlifted a record 463 tonnes of load from Chandigarh Airbase to airfields & drop zones in the Ladakh region, in a single wave.
Indian Air Force
‏

Just remembered those hectic to and fro discussions, a decade or so ago, between posters (IIRC Gilles, GeorgeWelch etc) who were for and against the C17s and what load and runway lengths they would require.. We sure have come a long way

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2018 14:03

7 C17 lined up wingtip to wingtip is definitely a chetawani and a show of power . we have 10 +1 on order and are the 2nd largest operator, more than UK and a few others who have 8. some a330MRTT and 12 blackjacks out of homebase @ yelehanka to join the party would have been awesome.

16 transports were involved - so 9 more airframes a mix of an32 and il76 probably landed or airdropped to other areas like thoise, demchok and the final frontier daulat beg oldie.

usaf has a massive 222 in service incl of reserves ... they must be rapidly phasing out the C5 fleet which is old and costly to operate albeit it can handle more outsize volume loads than C17 can. maybe they will keep a few around for such special duties and boneyard the rest.

where do we go from here on the IL76 front? we have around 18 - there is no talk of zero houring and putting PS90 engines on them. can buying more C130J handle those workloads? I noticed yesterday a c130 from panagarh or kalaikunda landed in port blair at night on a casevac mission to bring back 4 NHAI workers who were badly burned in a accident. c130 is likely to be highly available vs older IL76.

also for NSG deployment i saw one photo in a 26/11 mumbai attack book wherein people and equipment were piled up inside cramped IL76 cabin and a more recent one where inside a C17 they not only had that but had driven in all their vehicles as well, with plenty of room to spare. Palam always has a c17 or two parked.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 19 Dec 2018 15:08

There was some talk about overhaul of the 76's and 78's last year. Let me see if I can find the link for it.

Ideally we should be overhauling these airframes and engines, or replace the engine, and enable the fleet to be converted to the 78MP standard allowing them to switch between cargo and tanker roles as required with a war time allotment clearly made.

This would allow us to handle our tanker shortage in the short to mid term and enable better utilize the fleet now that they are augmented by more capable aircraft.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2018 19:05

they could also be converted to high power standoff jammer and ELINT role our EP3-P8A-RC135, if PS90 engines and mission equipment be fitted.
not all of them maybe 6. the rest 23-6-2=15 could be used for cargoes, Ro-Ro tankers and people hauling.

the 2 I would give to HAL for engine testbed, by replacing 1 engine with test pod.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Dec 2018 04:23

Me? I would prefer Backfires ( don't read too much into this!), more readily available and less costly requiring upgradation though.Quite some time ago reports said that the entire IL-76 fleet was to be upgraded.The AN-
32s have been so. Why, the IAF is now going to upgrade our venerable Avros! There's little point doing PR for the C-17s, production has ended.Fini.Any heavylifters we may require in future can only be the upgraded IL-76-90s whatever, fully built in Russia.The same platform for our extra AWACS birds.

Curious, as I too was recently thinking about the us having the latest avatar of the MIG-31, AWACS killers to counter the AWACS/ AEW birds that have entered Paki and Chin service.It will be essential at outbreak of hostilities to exterminate them.One hopes that old reports about a 400km AAM for the same being offered to us, perhaps in a JV are on the anvil. They could also be carried by Super Sukhois.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Dec 2018 13:04

18 of the 222 c17 in usaf are in the reserve.
if there are any funding cuts in transport command usually more of active duty planes are pushed into reserve.
we could keep a watch and dart in then to buy a few of such 'surplus airframes' ... a few kit like radios may need changing , rest is same.

Il76-90 is no doubt a good product, a workhorse but without large orders, its cost and decades long sustainment will be tricky. so far I am not sure if they are being churned out for RuAF...which does not have the global network of bases issue that usaf has to cater to.

imo we could probably just buy more C130J when its time for IL76 retirement. both can get into the same places, c130 maybe into a few even more austere airstrips including daulat beg oldie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KUprBZsdcI

c130j-30 - 132 pax or 19 t payload
Il76MD - 48tons (upto 60t in Il76-90)

there does exist a wide gap. a gap we should look to fill off our a desi design as a good project for entry into large a/c.

EMB KC-390 (26t payload)
japan kawasaki C2 (32-36t)
A400M (37t)

imo we should adapt the Kawasaki C2 design to our own needs and build the local industry around it for 100-150 planes long term. HAL will be happy with a big new project after their MTA dreams got canned.
being a transport plane no issues with japani political headwinds on lethal gear
wiki says they are interested in exporting it to attain some economy of scale.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Dec 2018 13:07

Saksham Bharat:- MiG-29 Upgrade

Not a full list but what Group Captain says about Mig-29UPG upgrade

1 ) Upgrade add A2G capability anti-ship and make A2A capability more potent
2 ) New Radar has multiple Track and Shoot capability simultanously
3 ) PGM capability added and new aircraft is very effective in targetting deep specially in mountanous region both for Pakistan and CHina
4 ) Adding IFR capabilty has made it possible for it be in air for 6 hrs or more
5 ) New A2A missile capability , total digital avionics and Glass cockpit
6 ) Has T:W Ratio of more than 1 so aircraft can take of vertically
7 ) During Kargil Mig-29 was assigned exclusively for CAP in that region , Total 6 Aircraft was assigned for CAP , Enemy aircraft though flying but due to Mig-29 did not come more than 50 km close to LOC
8 ) Based out at Adampur IAF oldest and 2nd largest AB
9 ) Grp Captain says even today you cant beat Mig-29 in dog fight with contemporary aircraft having Canard and TVC

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 20 Dec 2018 14:23

We execute a massive exercise to send a message to PLA but allow Huawei to particiapte in 5G trials. Conflicting signals

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Dec 2018 14:42

Paul wrote:We execute a massive exercise to send a message to PLA but allow Huawei to particiapte in 5G trials. Conflicting signals

Why not if you are alluding to spying allegation againt Huawei which could be true but these things are equally valid of CISCO or other Western players , If you look at Wikileaks/Snowden disclosure every western company was indirectly spying for their country , that may be well true for Chinese companies too.

To think excluding Huawei will make our security any better would be naive , The only way to eliminate it is to make sure we deign and use every that goes inside the electrnics are made here in India.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Dec 2018 18:09

The lows of Congress!! Calling a serving chief liar.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 00256?s=08
There is complete outrage at Air Headquarters over this remark. Senior IAF officers say they don't have the mandate to respond to the political allegation made by Mr Moily that the Air Chief is a liar because of his views on Rafale. A new low in the Rafale discourse.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 22 Dec 2018 06:30

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 22 Dec 2018 06:59

Austin.... China is a immediate neighbour and a enemy nation. Allowing Huawei is worse than allowing CISCO who as u rightly alluded could be also into spying. its a shame that we can send rockets / satellite but cannot design telecomm infra building blocks.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Dec 2018 08:05

Specially with the upgrade to 5G on the horizion, need to be very careful, and have indignation of these critical equipments
Already telephone switchboards full of imported equipment, I suspect that videshi electronic intel agencies are having a field day in India

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 22 Dec 2018 09:19

What is this "could be also into spying." Of course, they're spying. The Snowden expose revealed that NSA can intercept shipments of CISCO routers at will and insert code or hardware as required.

We need to give up this notion that our allies and vendors don't spy on us. Of course, they do. Everything and everyone is of interest to an intelligence organization with sufficient reach and pretty much all the major nations do.

manjgu wrote:Austin.... China is a immediate neighbour and a enemy nation. Allowing Huawei is worse than allowing CISCO who as u rightly alluded could be also into spying. its a shame that we can send rockets / satellite but cannot design telecomm infra building blocks.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Dec 2018 10:07

manjgu wrote:Austin.... China is a immediate neighbour and a enemy nation. Allowing Huawei is worse than allowing CISCO who as u rightly alluded could be also into spying. its a shame that we can send rockets / satellite but cannot design telecomm infra building blocks.

Both spying is equally bad for our national security , with Huawei it is a charge albeit an unproven one though i dont doubt they would do it , but with CISCO and other US SW/Hardware vendor we know from snowden/wikileaks are extent of spying is very deep. The Western MSM would simply like to gloss over it .

In the end we need to design and manuf our own telecom infra and use it there is no other way to prevent a backdoor in equipment and software.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 22 Dec 2018 11:56

1) ...we could more likely be at war with Napakis/China then USA/European Countries. 2) i said its only a question of degree between chinese spying vs western spying.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 22 Dec 2018 12:13

manjgu wrote:1) ...we could more likely be at war with Napakis/China then USA/European Countries.

At whose behest? Any spying can be used against us and make us to some things, if not directly, indirectly. So I wouldn't discount spying by western equipment manufacturers that easily.

nam · Post by **nam** » 24 Dec 2018 03:54

A question, if LCA MK2 is replacing Jag, Mig29, Mirage what is MMRCA 2.0 replacing?

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 24 Dec 2018 04:10

nam wrote:A question, if LCA MK2 is replacing Jag, Mig29, Mirage what is MMRCA 2.0 replacing?

MMRCA 1.0 competition.

On a serious note, i was thinking for a common fighter for navy and IAF on lines of F18 or Rafale. Perhaps for the shortage of squadrons to take the sqdn count to 42

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 24 Dec 2018 04:12

manjnu sir another way of looking at it would be westerners already spy on us with quite a bit of control, why add more to that list through huawei. Even if china doesnt do it, why support a nation that is already running in trade surplus and is funding our opponents. In fact we have a much stronger and cogent case to bring about the option of national security than any other western nation.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 24 Dec 2018 06:49

MMRCA. 1.0 was planned to replace the Mig-23 and Mig-27 IIRC.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Dec 2018 08:24

ArjunPandit wrote:
nam wrote:A question, if LCA MK2 is replacing Jag, Mig29, Mirage what is MMRCA 2.0 replacing?
MMRCA 1.0 competition.
On a serious note, i was thinking for a common fighter for navy and IAF on lines of F18 or Rafale. Perhaps for the shortage of squadrons to take the sqdn count to 42

nam, to answer your question....the Jaguar, MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 represents around 12 squadrons. The Tejas Mk2 - as per current acquisition plans - will be acquired in around 201 aircraft or 10 squadrons.

Apart from the above, the IAF will have around approximately 14 squadrons of Su-30MKIs + 2 Rafale squadrons + 6 squadrons of Mk1/Mk1As. That brings it up to 32 squadrons. There is a gap of 10 squadrons and it is this gap that MMRCA 2.0 is trying to fill. Despite that, at 110 MMRCA aircraft, you are looking at only six additional squadrons. So still a short gap of 4 squadrons to reach 42.

But, 42 is a number that the IAF will likely never achieve due to retirements quicker than inductions. But as I have said before, 42 represents nothing if the capability of that 42 does not meet the requirements of the IAF. Would reopening the MiG-21 line allow the IAF to achieve 42 fairly quickly? Probably yes, assuming the tooling, jigs and raw materials are still around. But would that allow the IAF to achieve air dominance in the future? Definitely not. So it is not just about numbers, it is about capability as well.

Regardless, numbers of the Mk1A and Mk2 will have to be increased if the IAF wants to achieve 42. But if they want to stick to current acquisition plans for the Tejas, then perhaps the IAF will want to launch a new competition for a 5th gen fighter at some point in the future and make up the gap for 42 via that.

@ArjunPandit —> We should be wary of any American fighter aircraft in the IAF. Politically, the US is extremely unreliable. What is palatable to one US administration will not necessarily be to the next US Administration. I hope the IAF does not buy the F-16 or the F-18. It would be a disastrous decision. 2 - 4 additional squadrons of the Rafale are best for the IAF logistically and capability wise.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 24 Dec 2018 16:36

^^rakesh sir,
No doubt you are right. Here are my thoughts, not much new but still

Financial/Tech: F18 does offer some advantage over rafale, unit cost would be one of them. A much larger ecosystem would be one of them. Even if US moves on to F35, there would still be a large fleet of F18s in existence for a larger no. of years. As per article below F18 production lines will be busy till '25. Assuming life of 25 years, planes will exist till 2050. They will also see upgrades on radar, engine (EPE) and avionics (advanced or full glass cockpit)
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ti-447363/
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21 ... ets-future
France for all its might will never be able to match the american scale. That does make it compromise on political aspect, but we have seen that financial costs are prohibitive.
In long run it is best to have our own tech, but second best option is to get involved with US system. Turkey, SoKo, Singapore and Japan (although Japan was no pushover even before too).

Political:
In my opinion it all depends upon where US wants to take the relationship (yes and not India). For US govt or any part of it, some freebies will not be a big deal. Until few years ago they were funding few hundred million dollars for Paki purchases. They would offer some tech here and there, some lure of make in India with a slightly lesser price and not to miss few fake promises of joint tech development. That offer coupled with a sustained campaign in media (if govt does not toe their line) would be enough to rattle the foundations of any govt. Imagine the plight of an already corrupt govt, that can be manipulated at will by selective release of information. I am sure it has been discussed why C17, C130, and Apache deals went without any fuss at lightening speeds. No news/talks about missing offsets of wind tunnel. So political aspect is easiest for US to handle, esp with so called non nationalistic govt. For them govt first nation be darned. There may or may not be bribes, but if not cajoling coercion can be used. Now coming to the reliability of US or rather the lack of it, I agree but in the long run that will also impact Tejas, C130, C17 and Apaches. We will have to safeguard our interests through alternative mechanisms, e.g., stocking domestic development etc. If Iran can fly F14s after decades of sanctions we would be much better placed to weather them.
Just my thoughts. Will wait to hear others' views on this and learn.