Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 02 Jan 2019 02:11

Gone are the days when HAL used to be a lousy company and gave step motherly treatment to LCA. Today they are in a situation to deliver FOC jets in mere 9 months from design freeze. Which means a significant chunk of MFG work on it already finished. Kudos to HAL, ADA and IAF for this.

I expect Mk1A will also see production starting much before it receives FOC, may even start flying in IAF service. That would be a dream come true. Would be a symbol of maturing concurrent engineering and pragmatic program management.

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Jan 2019 02:25

HAL could start the MK1A work as the LSPs will not be available in FOC format for modification to MK1A.

They already have some 2052 from the Jag program, so technically they can start integrating the radar..

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Jan 2019 03:47

I would imagine that 2052 has already been integrated with LCA

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jan 2019 04:01

What is not clear is whether the Mk1A prototypes will be new builds or one of the later LSP variants. I don’t see a reason for a new build LCA Mk1A when the structural differences are likely to be not that significant. Wiring, LRUs etc. the innards can all be redone but the wings and fuselage assemblies can be reused from the Mk1 LSPs itself. I hope we get to know the plan by this Aero India.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 02 Jan 2019 06:00

AFAIK, MK1A prototypes will be new builds. All SPs which have been built are to be delivered to IAF, SP1-16 -IOC confit then we have 8 trainers - IOC or FOC confit not clear and then 16 FOC config SPs. Then only the XX MK1As would be built..
My wish is for ADA to leverage LSPs for building our MK1A prototypes which I presume should be already happening... we need to analyze the yes flights of LSPs in the recent past...will post more after analyzing those

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jan 2019 08:19

ashishvikas wrote:As far as FOC for the Tejas Mk-1 is concerned, 90% of radar & EW functionality had been achieved according to people in the know. The full functionality software upgrade could even be done after induction.Gun vibration tests had shown that the mounting needed some stiffening.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/107 ... 36000?s=19

Two/ three years back when they showed the shell pattern of the ground based gun firing trials I had remarked, there seems to be unbalance in the gun mounting. The target patterns between the two barrels looked different.

la.khan · Post by **la.khan** » 02 Jan 2019 08:34

JayS wrote:
la.khan wrote: So, the tweet says:

My understanding of the above is that DG Aero @ DRDO has given HAL HQ @ BLR FOC build standard documents. So, any Tejas aircraft HAL builds to these docs/specifications is considered as FOC complaint?

What about IAF? Are they on board with this? Do they agree that these FOC Build Standard docs is as per their specifications/requirement? I thought the final nod whether Tejas has completed FOC or not rests with IAF.
Bolded part, sounds right.

Don't worry about IAF being onboard. The LCA steering committee (sort of BoG for the program) meeting had all the stakeholders in it and often ACM chairs the meet which is a quarterly affair I think. IAF doesn't give FOC, its CEMILAC which does that.

Gurus, thanks for the replies! So, looks like Tejas Mk1 FOC is in the bag

Great! Important milestone for Indian aeronautics!! Next stop Tejas Mk1A

Hope ADA/DRDO/HAL/IAF can leverage experience from Mk1 & deliver Mk1A in quantity (83 nos), on budget, on schedule

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jan 2019 13:53

What need to be noted(highlighted) is it would be only by Oct 2019, IAF will get their first FOC Tejas(sp21).

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Jan 2019 14:46

SaiK wrote:What need to be noted(highlighted) is it would be only by Oct 2019, IAF will get their first FOC Tejas(sp21).

SaiK
FOC means that the LCA in sq service has FOC i.e all aircraft in sq service are FOC std.
FOC is less about all the documentation etc and more about meeting the entire operating envelope as mandated.
What you are implying is that SP 1 to 20 will not be FOC std!!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Jan 2019 15:06

ks_sachin wrote:
SaiK wrote:What need to be noted(highlighted) is it would be only by Oct 2019, IAF will get their first FOC Tejas(sp21).
SaiK
FOC means that the LCA in sq service has FOC i.e all aircraft in sq service are FOC std.
FOC is less about all the documentation etc and more about meeting the entire operating envelope as mandated.
What you are implying is that SP 1 to 20 will not be FOC std!!

What he is implying is correct. At least partially, at least from HW perspective. SW may be upgraded to FOC standard, if possible I think. Its difficult to say anything about this without specific info.

First 16 (not 20) IOC jets could be upgraded to FOC standard later. I think there is a high probability they will be.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 03 Jan 2019 15:18

I recall reading an article stating that once the production of the FOC fighters were completed the IOC fighters would be upgraded to their standards. Let me see if I can find a link for that article.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 03 Jan 2019 16:11

i will not be surprised toilet paper will wipe their masters bleeding a$$ h0les and come out tomorrow yelling how it took 30 odd years,,,,,,,,,time and cost overrun,,,,,,,,,,,,IAF dont wanted,,, thrusted upon them,,,,,,,,already obsolete,,,,,,,,how people are working with meager pay,,,,,,,,,,itd. itd..
.
all their foc word will be with in "asterisk". what they mean they will only have to tell...

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 03 Jan 2019 16:57

I hope and wish someone from ToILet paper is monitoring this thread.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Jan 2019 17:21

JayS wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: SaiK
FOC means that the LCA in sq service has FOC i.e all aircraft in sq service are FOC std.
FOC is less about all the documentation etc and more about meeting the entire operating envelope as mandated.
What you are implying is that SP 1 to 20 will not be FOC std!!
What he is implying is correct. At least partially, at least from HW perspective. SW may be upgraded to FOC standard, if possible I think. Its difficult to say anything about this without specific info.

First 16 (not 20) IOC jets could be upgraded to FOC standard later. I think there is a high probability they will be.

Jay I am assuming that there are no hardware changes between FOC and IOC aircraft apart from refuelling probe.
So I stand corrected and SaiK is right. First fully built a/c with all hw and sw of FOC std will be as he says.

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Jan 2019 17:31

Only ADA/HAL can answer that in detail.

However given the size of LCA, adding a IFR would have meant moving some of the hw parts around or even replacing with updated version to save space. You need to make space for all the plumbing that is required.

Given that it was done on LSP, this means it can be done on IOC version as well. There was a comment by a HAL offical, where he mentions that IAf can form a new contract with HAL if they want IOC to be updated with IFR.

A analogue is the Rafale test bird which is testing India specific changes. It is the oldest Rafale is what I heard and acts as prototype for new changes.

Similarly, I would see that LSP will act as prototype for MK1A. And form the basis for production documents.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Jan 2019 17:51

ks_sachin wrote:
JayS wrote:
What he is implying is correct. At least partially, at least from HW perspective. SW may be upgraded to FOC standard, if possible I think. Its difficult to say anything about this without specific info.

First 16 (not 20) IOC jets could be upgraded to FOC standard later. I think there is a high probability they will be.
Jay I am assuming that there are no hardware changes between FOC and IOC aircraft apart from refuelling probe.
So I stand corrected and SaiK is right. First fully built a/c with all hw and sw of FOC std will be as he says.

Tough to make any definitive statement on changes in HW. There are literally 8000-10000 drawings total. How many of them are updated, only ADA/HAL/IAF would know. Of coarse the changes in basic airframe structure and skin must be next to nil, which is why HAL could go ahead and start FOC production (that's the way it should be). Two significant HW changes I think that are there in FOC compared to IOC are IFR system and rearrangement of LRUs for enhanced maintainability.

After everything is said and done, I strongly feel we will see IAF flying all these 123 Tejas in Mk1A config eventually. I have said this before as well, like 2yrs ago.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 03 Jan 2019 18:22

jaysimha wrote:i will not be surprised toilet paper will wipe their masters bleeding a$$ h0les and come out tomorrow yelling how it took 30 odd years,,,,,,,,,time and cost overrun,,,,,,,,,,,,IAF dont wanted,,, thrusted upon them,,,,,,,,already obsolete,,,,,,,,how people are working with meager pay,,,,,,,,,,itd. itd..
.
all their foc word will be with in "asterisk". what they mean they will only have to tell...

After Years Of Delay, Indigenously Developed LCA Tejas Finally To Be Inducted Into Air Force

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 03 Jan 2019 18:29

Ashokk wrote: After Years Of Delay, Indigenously Developed LCA Tejas Finally To Be Inducted Into Air Force

still they have reserved the Carge kommitte puke for tomorrow.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Jan 2019 22:22

Ashokk wrote: After Years Of Delay, Indigenously Developed LCA Tejas Finally To Be Inducted Into Air Force

LCA Tejas was inducted into the IAF 2+ years ago when IAF stood up the 45th SQ.. this has around 10 aircrafts.. FOC is only the culmination of the process for MK1... Presstitutes will always remain Presstitutes. Also this farticle has nothing new other than new mistakes... mixes multiple topics into a mish-mash.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Jan 2019 03:54

Tejas Tejasvi Namaham! (Touch the Sky with Glory!) on 04 Jan 2019!

titash · Post by **titash** » 04 Jan 2019 10:54

Rakesh wrote:Tejas Tejasvi Namaham! (Touch the Sky with Glory!) on 04 Jan 2019!

Beautiful pic Admiral.

I recall this day 18 years ago when she first flew. I am as excited today as I was back then. To the believer no proof is necessary; to the disbeliever no proof is sufficient.

The selection of a reliable engine in the GE 404 has been the single best decision on this program till date. No crashes/flame-outs/mid-air aborts etc. Does wonders for morale and pilot community support...

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 04 Jan 2019 10:57

Happy #TejasDay to all jingos.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Jan 2019 11:32

Its time Dileep ji tell us what is expected today, no FOc yet

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Jan 2019 12:07

Happy Tejas day to all.

I remember I promised to do a back flip on the day the Tejas made its first flight.

Could not do it then. Can't do it now. But was damn happy that day.

The only disappointment is that 200 plus are not in service. But we are getting there.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 04 Jan 2019 13:06

Pratyush wrote: I remember I promised to do a back flip on the day the Tejas made its first flight.
Could not do it then. Can't do it now. But was damn happy that day.

You a JF17 or what? Can't do a back flip?

Congratulations India!

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 04 Jan 2019 14:38

JayS wrote:Happy #TejasDay to all jingos.

Ya Ya

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 04 Jan 2019 14:50

Here you go: The Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) has given the green signal to start manufacturing of Tejas Mk1 under Final Operational Clearance (FOC) configuration

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 04 Jan 2019 15:01

Now, in typical desi fashion, they put a fly in the ointment.

More than one source said what was given on December 31 is an interim or limited FOC; Tejas is still some distance away from being FOC standard. And that this was done to speed up production and keep HAL’s idling facilities engaged. Further improvements would follow in the ‘FOC-2’ phase.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Jan 2019 15:34

yensoy wrote:
Pratyush wrote: I remember I promised to do a back flip on the day the Tejas made its first flight.
Could not do it then. Can't do it now. But was damn happy that day.

You a JF17 or what? Can't do a back flip?

Congratulations India!

Am 30kg overweight and have an underpowered engine. So am hardly a 3 legged cheetah.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 04 Jan 2019 15:35

I think that FOC 2 will be mainly software upgrade, so production clearance has been given. Though I hope components of all 28 aircraft will be ordered in one go rather than piece meal 10+10+8

HAL also needs to accelerate production to atleast 10-12 per annum.

More importantly, it's high time IAF & MOD signs a formal contract for 83 MKIA with HAL immediately. The first aircraft will need around 4 years to fly after the contract.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jan 2019 16:04

Dileep wrote:Now, in typical desi fashion, they put a fly in the ointment.

More than one source said what was given on December 31 is an interim or limited FOC; Tejas is still some distance away from being FOC standard. And that this was done to speed up production and keep HAL’s idling facilities engaged. Further improvements would follow in the ‘FOC-2’ phase.

This is Kite-flying by Chindu... all from un-named sources... no official sources talked about interim FOC

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 04 Jan 2019 16:15

No. Most of the news items try to word it to indicate that this was a "cleaarance to manufacture" to HAL, not a "operational clearance". It reeks of bureaucratic "kaampramize"

Most probably, some performance checkmarks are still missing and the i dotters and t crossers objected to call this FOC hence a compromise.

What matters is that HAL is cleared to build.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Jan 2019 16:22

Dileep wrote:Here you go: The Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) has given the green signal to start manufacturing of Tejas Mk1 under Final Operational Clearance (FOC) configuration

Link mentions AESA radar as part of FOC, since when did this move from MK1A to MK1

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Jan 2019 16:24

Gyan wrote:
More importantly, it's high time IAF & MOD signs a formal contract for 83 MKIA with HAL immediately. The first aircraft will need around 4 years to fly after the contract.

LSP2, I believe was integrated with Uttam. This means atleast one LSP is available, which can take on AESA with all the cooling requirements. We have used 2052 on Jag, so it is a radar we know about. Elta will be responsible for integrating Derby, which I think should be out of the box.

So if I am being optimistic, we should have a LSP flying with 2052 within a year, if not earlier( which would be great). HAL should push hard to get a prototype out with 2052 as soon as possible.

20 FOC would be build by mid 2021. So ideally they should be ready by that time.

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Jan 2019 16:28

Dileep wrote:No. Most of the news items try to word it to indicate that this was a "cleaarance to manufacture" to HAL, not a "operational clearance". It reeks of bureaucratic "kaampramize"

Most probably, some performance checkmarks are still missing and the i dotters and t crossers objected to call this FOC hence a compromise.

What matters is that HAL is cleared to build.

The whole confusion is around calling it "FOC" version. FOC, an operational term used on a development block version. Thank fully they are calling the next version as MK1A, not "FOC++".

Even F35 going in to sqd service is Lighting 2. Atleast LM prevented the nonsense we are seeing in here.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 04 Jan 2019 17:30

^^may be I have waited for FOC so long or may be the suspense of dilip sir increased my expectations too much that I dont feel that elated at "near final" FOC. Perhaps the folloiwng can cheer
1. a full squadron or Mk1a
2. Additional Mk1 orders
3. Mk1A prototype
4. Uttam on some version
5. Something positive on Kaveri/Kabini
For some reason I miss those days when the progress of the program would be tracked on the flights of LSPs.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 04 Jan 2019 18:37

Dileep wrote:No. Most of the news items try to word it to indicate that this was a "cleaarance to manufacture" to HAL, not a "operational clearance". It reeks of bureaucratic "kaampramize"

Most probably, some performance checkmarks are still missing and the i dotters and t crossers objected to call this FOC hence a compromise.

Clearly required milestones for FOC are missing, In flight cannon firing per reports would take 12-18 Months. Like the aircraft itself India would give to the aviation world new stages of FOC like FOC - A, FOC - B and finally FOC- FOC.

nam wrote: 20 FOC would be build by mid 2021. So ideally they should be ready by that time.

So annual production of 8 aircrafts to continue for another 3 years and all the talk of HAL capacity to build 16/20/24 aircrafts is another 3 years away.

I did the lungi dance for FOC- FOC not knowing that it is first FOC-A, then FOC-B and then maybe there would not be FOC-C

Indian bureaucrats and babus - Your reputation is well earned.

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Jan 2019 18:56

Vips wrote: So annual production of 8 aircrafts to continue for another 3 years and all the talk of HAL capacity to build 16/20/24 aircrafts is another 3 years away.

I did the lungi dance for FOC- FOC not knowing that it is first FOC-A, then FOC-B and then maybe there would not be FOC-C

Indian bureaucrats and babus - Your reputation is well earned.

First and foremost, FOC is an operational term. What ADA has delivered is a block with capabilities as desired by IAF, for second squadron.

This block now has firmed up hardware design, which allows HAL to deliver PRODUCTION aircraft to IAF. HAL will not be delivering FOC LSP or FOC-1 LSP for verification. It will be delivering serial production. So yes, it is FOC version. It has meet the primary goal of LCA program.

There will software upgrades, which is constant, irrespective of which version you are. It does not effect hardware production which is important.

The first FOC SP will fly in Oct 19. I assumed a rate of 12 per year so 18-20 may take 1.75 years. mid 2021. By this time HAL should have put in place (hopefully) 16 or 24 per year lines for MK1A.

Regarding cannon, it was not deem necessary for this version. There is also the option of gun pod, if required. F35 uses gun pod, so can we.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 04 Jan 2019 19:40

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 1882168320

Till other day, the big Q was when will #Tejas get FOC, considering the number of times the prog missed the deadline for the same. Now, with #FOC in sight, there are more Qs. Is it a real one or temporary??! So, we asked people in know-how & answer in yellow!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jan 2019 20:53

afaik Eurofighter may still not be qualified to carry some munitions that Tornados can. the JSF is another example of a long series of tranches and capability increments all of which widen its use cases. new weapons, sensors and SW updates will keep it going.

no different from a smartwatch or a phone that gets years of updates after the purchase.

the Tejas as it stands today can fight and shoot down enemies in some use cases.we should not call it FOC, because goal posts are always moving and enemy also is adapting...there is nothing FINAL in technology anymore, a weapon to end all weapons, a product will get updates until the last few years of its life. while HW updates will be few and phased in during MLU. the SW updates may get faster from the old norms of once every 1-2 years....who knows using devops cloud centric jenkins build model, they could "push code into production" from a central server after regression tests once in 2 weeks using a unmanned remote control Tejas to touch the test points in flight and on ground rigs and then every squadron just gets automated downloads that burn the firmware and 'reboot' the plane ... well no need for reboot either - using containers and VMs the new sw can come up in another context and when its ready, smoothly take over the HW

in future "trucks" that drop off dozens of netcentric munitions and decoys at desired points will just pull these updates that will program the weapons on the fly, reprogram them many times including in flight if needed with JIT EW libs.

the network is the brain now and simple cogs in the machine are the delivery boys. the days of a Mig25R mission needing hours to prepare, 1 hour to shoot pics and another few hours to process imagery before dissemination into the field are WAY SLOW now. airborne recon platforms must be up 24x7 feeding data via satcom antennas into the network for near real time processing.