Indian Military Helicopters

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 19 Dec 2018 23:45

Indranilji,
I recall you mentioning that ALH's performance is limited not by structural or engine limits but by the limits of the MGB in translating all that engine power to lift. Does LUH suffer from the same issue?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Dec 2018 01:54

At sea level, the MGB on both LUH and ALH cannot handle the full power of their respective engines. This is a compromise made for the high altitude performance.

If they go for an MGB which can bear the full load at sea level, it would become heavier and larger. High altitude performance would suffer accordingly.

My question has always been why not make versions of ALH/LUH/IMRH which are optimized for low altitudes: larger MGB or smaller engine. These helis won’t be used for high altitudes.

I guess the answer is priorities.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 21 Dec 2018 14:08

Indranil wrote:At sea level, the MGB on both LUH and ALH cannot handle the full power of their respective engines. This is a compromise made for the high altitude performance.

If they go for an MGB which can bear the full load at sea level, it would become heavier and larger. High altitude performance would suffer accordingly.

My question has always been why not make versions of ALH/LUH/IMRH which are optimized for low altitudes: larger MGB or smaller engine. These helis won’t be used for high altitudes.

I guess the answer is priorities.

I understand the IA and IAF compulsion, they cann't avoid high alt.

But would have done wonders for the navy. Sigh!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Dec 2018 14:38

we should not make same error for IMRH

let the engine remain same but equip the naval variant with proper transmission to use the engine fully.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 21 Dec 2018 16:10

Indranil wrote:At sea level, the MGB on both LUH and ALH cannot handle the full power of their respective engines. This is a compromise made for the high altitude performance.

If they go for an MGB which can bear the full load at sea level, it would become heavier and larger. High altitude performance would suffer accordingly.

My question has always been why not make versions of ALH/LUH/IMRH which are optimized for low altitudes: larger MGB or smaller engine. These helis won’t be used for high altitudes.

I guess the answer is priorities.

What's the cost of developing and qualifying a new MGB that specialised for marine operators? Navy, CG, ONGC, etc have enough requirements so why this has not been done? Perhaps question for Jingos to ask during AI-19.

raghuk · Post by **raghuk** » 21 Dec 2018 16:26

A new MGB is almost a new helicopter. And it really doesn't make economic sense to Design test and operationalize one for minor performance benefits given the numbers. Its better to build a bigger heli optimised for sea level ops which is what the NMRH or the IMRH-Navy is.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Dec 2018 17:18

From the horse's mouth, thanks raghu.

So, there are two completely separate versions for IMRH, with different MGB ??

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Dec 2018 22:14

Home Bases Ready, 3 Month Countdown Begins For IAF Apache & Chinook Deliveries
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/12 ... eries.html

In three months, the Indian Air Force will begin receiving its first AH-64E Apache attack helicopters and CH-47F Chinook heavy lift helicopters at its bases in Pathankot and Chandigarh respectively. Both bases are receiving finishing touches in terms of support infrastructure before the American-built rotorcraft arrive starting March 2019. Over the course of 2019-20, the IAF will receive 22 Apaches, 11 of which will be fitted with the AN/APG-78 Longbow fire control radar. The Apaches will be split between Pathankot and the Jorhat base in India’s east. An inaugural batch of IAF pilots — all current Mi-35 pilots — are at US Army Aviation’s premier flight training facility in Fort Rucker, Alabama to train on the Apache before beginning squadron work next March. The helicopters are part of a 2012 deal in which the Apache was selected over Russia’s Mi-28NE. In August last year, the Indian Army signed on for 6 AH-64Es, signalling the apparent end to its drawn-out war with the Indian Air Force over battlefield assets. Deliveries to the Indian Army suggest the IAF’s fleet could stand capped at 22 airframes. Projections suggest another 30 Apaches could be ordered ahead after initial deliveries to the IAF and Army.

Both the IAF and Army will also be operators of HAL’s Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), a detailed report on which will be on Livefist soon. Chandigarh, the nodal air base for air logistics to the high altitude forward areas of Ladakh, is also receiving a last infusion of infrastructure elements before the Chinooks arrive. India has indicated to the US that it will be inclined to exercise options for at least 8 more Chinooks once deliveries begin. Indian pilots, a mix of Mi-26 and Mi-17 pilots, and maintainers are currently training on Chinooks in Delaware. Since both the Apache and Chinook deals were concluded long before India and the U.S. signed the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) agreement earlier this year, several pieces of electronic kit held off as a result of erstwhile export restrictions will now be available to India on future airframes ordered, including the SINGCARS radio system, encrypted speech equipment and specialised transponders for special missions.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 25 Dec 2018 20:14

Army recovers snow-stuck helicopter from Siachen Glacier, sets new record.

The Indian Army has created a world record of sorts as its pilots and technicians successfully recovered a helicopter which was stuck in snow at an altitude of 18,000 feet at Siachen Glacier in Jammu and Kashmir.

The helicopter was brought back safely to the Siachen base camp with the help of infantry troops deployed there.

According to sources in the Army, an ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter) Dhruv, on an air maintenance sortie at the 74-km-long Siachen Glacier, developed a snag and had to be landed around a post called Khanda in January this year.

The pilots managed to land safely on soft snow but could not reach the helipad there, the sources said. Though the chopper landed safely, the overnight snow resulted in its falling sideways. Attempts were made to recover it but there was no success till July, they said.

The attempts were successful in July when the technicians and pilots of the Army ALH squadron 203 in Leh managed to put new parts on the chopper and bring it back safely to the Siachen Glacier base camp.

“I know the pilots and technicians who were involved in this operation. Knowing these people as I have headed this Army Aviation Corps for a couple of years, all I can say is that nothing is impossible for these men from Indian Army,” former Army Aviation chief Lt Gen P K Bharali (retd) told ANI on Tuesday.

The chopper was stuck at 18,000 feet and recovering it from there is a world record of sorts because India is one of the very few countries in the world who operate choppers at such high altitudes.

The Cheetah and Chetak choppers, which are French-origin machines in the Indian Army, fly at around 23,000 feet.

The French military also doesn’t use them for such extreme operations where the margin of error is very thin.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 26 Dec 2018 07:05

That dhruv got stuck in incredibly low temperature for SEVEN months and still working?

This should go straight to their marketing brochure

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Dec 2018 21:51

Tell me about it. See the picture below and more pictures in facebook link. IA-1144...remember that serial number!!!!

https://twitter.com/scramble_nl/status/ ... 9486662656 ---> The Indian Army successfully recovered an ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter) Dhruv which was stuck in the snow at an altitude of 18,000 feet at Siachen Glacier (Jammu & Kashmir).

Read more at ---> https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 8693837649

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 28 Dec 2018 01:05

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Dec 2018 06:03

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1078509592559132672 ---> The Indian Army just put out this video on the salvage and retrieval of a crashed Dhruv helicopter on the Siachen glacier.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 29 Dec 2018 11:28

Rakesh wrote:VIDEO: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1078509592559132672 ---> The Indian Army just put out this video on the salvage and retrieval of a crashed Dhruv helicopter on the Siachen glacier.

it did not crash.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Dec 2018 13:51

Neshant wrote:
Rakesh wrote:VIDEO: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1078509592559132672 ---> The Indian Army just put out this video on the salvage and retrieval of a crashed Dhruv helicopter on the Siachen glacier.
it did not crash.

Every landing is a crash back to earth and every crash is a landing back on earth...

The outcomes vary...

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 31 Dec 2018 15:52

hnair wrote:That dhruv got stuck in incredibly low temperature for SEVEN months and still working?

This should go straight to their marketing brochure

The Sqn personnel had to change one main rotor blade, which was broken, when the aircraft tipped over in static condition when parked (not whilst landing). They changed lubricants of the engines, gear boxes, installed fresh batteries and achored it errect. A temporary arrangement was made to reinforce the rear portion of one landing skid that was damaged. 'Ground run-ups' were carried out to check all systems were functional. Thereafter, the helicopter was ferried out by Army pilots.
Hats off to the maintenance and operational personnel of the Sqn for carrying out such a recovery in those extreme conditions!!!

You are right - the very fact that the aircraft was operable after seven months on the ice is a statement on its robust design and build!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 31 Dec 2018 21:00

Kudos to all teams associated with this bird.. the people who manufactured it should feel proud of their workmanship... a robust design, build and above all maintenance enabled this to happen...

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 01 Jan 2019 17:29

CASEVAC AT CHANDERKOT
26/12/2018
New Delhi: Pausha 4, Saka 1940
Tuesday 25 Dec, 2018
http://www.indianairforce.nic.in/conten ... chanderkot
‘Hovering Hawks’ Udhampur based helicopter Unit rescuing Jawans of ITBP frm Chanderkot to Jammu, J&K.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 08 Jan 2019 16:21

Sqn Ldr Khusboo Gupta : First IAF Women Pilot to fly in Siachen Glacier.

mody · Post by **mody** » 08 Jan 2019 19:13

The order for 15 LSP LCH helis has still not been placed. The go ahead for 15 LSP helicopters was announced a long time back. Almost a 1 year.
Don't know what is causing the delay.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 08 Jan 2019 20:03

mody wrote:The order for 15 LSP LCH helis has still not been placed. The go ahead for 15 LSP helicopters was announced a long time back. Almost a 1 year.
Don't know what is causing the delay.

Don't worry. This is not going to delay the program. Production is already started.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jan 2019 20:14

i guess people were scraping together the last coins of piggy banks to fund the infamous longbows.
and angling for more in the prestige fight.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Jan 2019 00:40

jaysimha wrote:Sqn Ldr Khusboo Gupta : First IAF Women Pilot to fly in Siachen Glacier.

Thank you for posting this jaysimha.

She did her undergrad from Birmingham University in the UK. She could have stayed there, but chose to come back and serve the nation. Kudos to Her! A true inspiration for us all.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 09 Jan 2019 01:56

Hari Nair wrote:
hnair wrote:That dhruv got stuck in incredibly low temperature for SEVEN months and still working?

This should go straight to their marketing brochure
The Sqn personnel had to change one main rotor blade, which was broken, when the aircraft tipped over in static condition when parked (not whilst landing). They changed lubricants of the engines, gear boxes, installed fresh batteries and achored it errect. A temporary arrangement was made to reinforce the rear portion of one landing skid that was damaged. 'Ground run-ups' were carried out to check all systems were functional. Thereafter, the helicopter was ferried out by Army pilots.
Hats off to the maintenance and operational personnel of the Sqn for carrying out such a recovery in those extreme conditions!!!

You are right - the very fact that the aircraft was operable after seven months on the ice is a statement on its robust design and build!

Hats off to the pilots who were willing to fly it out. GoI / MoD should give at least 10% of the cost of the helicopter to these gents!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jan 2019 00:27

Some of the pictures in the article are truly breathtaking. Must watch! Saurav Jha commented on one of the pictures in a tweet. And none of the pictures are staged. They are all taken in the thick of the action!

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1083783687919984640 ----> *The Rudra attack helo pics are from the Western sector. The helos shown along the Himalayas are standard Dhruv advance light helicopters (ALH). The Rudra is of course the weapon system integrated or WSI-Dhruv.

Shot on site: Stunning photo series captures Indian Army on the job
https://www.cntraveller.in/story/shot-s ... arachiwala

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 12 Jan 2019 01:20

Rakesh wrote:Shot on site: Stunning photo series captures Indian Army on the job
https://www.cntraveller.in/story/shot-s ... arachiwala

No COMPASS on any Rudra?

Nishn · Post by **Nishn** » 12 Jan 2019 05:58

Not nit-picking but the ALH-WSI is an assault helicopter where as the LCH is an attack helicopter. Assault helicopters carry combatants and have self-protection ordnance. Attack helicopters on the other hand carry ordnance only. Slightly different battlefield tasks.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2019 08:35

sudeepj wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:
The Sqn personnel had to change one main rotor blade, which was broken, when the aircraft tipped over in static condition when parked (not whilst landing). They changed lubricants of the engines, gear boxes, installed fresh batteries and achored it errect. A temporary arrangement was made to reinforce the rear portion of one landing skid that was damaged. 'Ground run-ups' were carried out to check all systems were functional. Thereafter, the helicopter was ferried out by Army pilots.
Hats off to the maintenance and operational personnel of the Sqn for carrying out such a recovery in those extreme conditions!!!

You are right - the very fact that the aircraft was operable after seven months on the ice is a statement on its robust design and build!
Hats off to the pilots who were willing to fly it out. GoI / MoD should give at least 10% of the cost of the helicopter to these gents!

I understand your sentiment. But it is below the honor and valour of such men to be paid like this. How can we pay a price for what they do? And why just the pilots? The currency of payment is honour and salutes for their every step.

srin · Post by **srin** » 12 Jan 2019 08:56

https://defenceupdate.in/army-air-force ... pin-rawat/

Rawat said that the army is trying to explain to the IAF on how future battles will be fought. “Because if you are going to use the Apache, it is going to be in our support… Its for the mechanised formations. So whether you operate or we operate, we can take a call. There is some kind of understanding that is coming. But then they say what about countering the adversary’s helicopter, so for that also we have something,” he said.

There will also be “anti-helicopters”, said the army chief. The ALH-WSI (Advanced Light Helicopter-Weapon System Integrated), will have a missile for anti-helicopter missions.

On Dhruv WSI ...

Explaining the status of the armament of the ALH-WSI, said the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is making a rocket and a missile, which should soon be available for final testing. “While the missile and the rocket has been given to us for the testing…in some of the tests we have not met the standards which we had desired. So we told them that till they don’t meet those desired standards, there are safety issues, you continue with your research and we will continue with the trials. But have given them a definitive timeline to say in what time frame do you think this rocket and missile will be available to us,” he said.

“They have given us the time frame and we said if you don’t go as per that then there will be a gap and since we need these weapon systems we may have to go for limited import,” said Rawat, adding that by March the final timeline as to which the weapons can be introduced will be given.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jan 2019 23:18

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 2850576385 ---> HAL Light Combat Helicopter and HAL Rudra Weapon System Integrated (WSI).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Jan 2019 00:19

VIDEO ---> https://twitter.com/Leopard212/status/1 ... 3183072257 ---> 42 Days to Aero India 2019 Yelahanka. Another shot of Advanced Light Helicopter - Weapons System Integrated, RUDRA - Made In India by HAL - soon to enthral New Delhi on 15 January and 26 January 2019 for Army Day 2019 and RD Parade 2019.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 14 Jan 2019 13:42

From Gen Rawat's quotes above

"Because if you are going to use the Apache, it is going to be in our support… Its for the mechanised formations. So whether you operate or we operate, we can take a call. There is some kind of understanding that is coming. But then they say what about countering the adversary’s helicopter, so for that also we have something,” he said.
"

What about SEAD/DEAD missions, CSAR Missions, Support of Garud Missions?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jan 2019 14:01

from what i read
- garuds have no csar mission (yet) and there is not much a of jsocish dedicated csar planning. they are restricted to protecting vital iaf infra.
- sead/dead is expected to be done by fast wing jets using ARMs not helicopters . no heli in the world has the necessary sensors and missiles for this, let alone escaping a fight with a pantsyr or tor type system.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 14 Jan 2019 15:33

Slight OT. IIRC, in the first Gulf War, it was the first wave of Apaches which took out Iraqi EWRs using Hellfires. They sneaked in at night hugging terrain & thus avoiding detection...not saying that choppers are to be used for SEAD/DEAD. Of course, this was back in 90s when AD systems weren't advanced & potent like current ones...

I do believe that Ka-52s are rated to carry Kh-25 series ARM. Though I think Mi-28s are not...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Jan 2019 15:35

Singha ji, during Gulf war 1 didnt apaches take out some of the Iraqi early warning radars just before the F-117's moved in

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/deser ... 1753466057

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jan 2019 15:45

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/v ... nwc-review

The existence of a JSOC also would bring about greater strategic and doctrinal clarity, along with more institutionalized joint training. For the time being,
India’s Para SFs have no organic air wing, and the IA air arm as yet does not
possess its own ground-attack capability. After years of bitter wrangling among
services, the MOD arbitrated in favor of the IAF retaining control, for the time
being, over newly acquired heliborne platforms critical for special operations and
airborne assault, such as the Apaches and Chinooks purchased from the United
States.

While this is projected to change in the near future, the process points
to the persistent dysfunctionality of interservice relations, which could affect
the effectiveness and reactivity of Indian SOFs in the event of a crisis. With each
service striving to create its own SOF unit, there also has been a certain amount
of duplication in terms of core competencies and a relative absence of profound
reflection on what some of these newly formed units could bring in terms of
added value—this despite the existence since 2008 of a (classified) Indian Joint
Doctrine for Special Operations.

The IAF’s Garud, for example, has yet truly to
evolve beyond its primary objective of protecting air bases and installations, a
task that could be relegated to a force already designed for such a purpose: the
paramilitary Central Industrial Security Force. There is a broad consensus within
India’s SOF community that where the Garud truly needs to focus its efforts is
on developing a core of highly trained JTACs and forward-deployed air combat–
control teams.

Another core objective would be to specialize in the emergency
extraction of downed IAF pilots or groups of SFFs or Para SFs isolated behind
enemy lines.
Yet, according to most interviewees, until now not much progress
has been made on these fronts

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jan 2019 15:50

Aditya_V wrote:Singha ji, during Gulf war 1 didnt apaches take out some of the Iraqi early warning radars just before the F-117's moved in

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/deser ... 1753466057

yes they certainly did, but it was not something that N number of platforms like F15/F18/F117/TLAMs/F111 could not have done using standoff missiles. there was no silver bullet radar there, just the usual stuff.

perhaps it was a political play to let JSOC contribute because Schwartzkopf did not like the jsoc cowboys (despite a 24x7 delta force detail for his personal security!) and felt they lacked the throw weight to make a difference to the heavy armour campaign he had mapped out. when political pressure came from POTUS to do something about the Scuds he sent them into the desert to report on scud movements, which proved tough and so they used to send a couple F15s to randomly drop bombs every 15 mins in scud firing areas to let iraqis know that airpower was orbiting onsite if they wanted to unmask and shoot.

in the whole war, jsoc did not get a good role to play. I guess same for OIF where the heavy army and marine divs ploughed their way into baghdad and it was a tank division that blasted to saddams palace.

their moment of glory was probably the initial phase of the war in afghanistan. well maybe throw in the killing of uday and qusay, the capture of saddam via bribing tribal elders and finally killing OBL.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 14 Jan 2019 16:17

Singha wrote:from what i read
- garuds have no csar mission (yet) and there is not much a of jsocish dedicated csar planning. they are restricted to protecting vital iaf infra.
- sead/dead is expected to be done by fast wing jets using ARMs not helicopters . no heli in the world has the necessary sensors and missiles for this, let alone escaping a fight with a pantsyr or tor type system.

That is not correct.

Garud is fully slated for SEAD/DEAD - JTAC, CSAR mission profiles and trains hard for it. They have routinely demonstrated their capability at home (large scale IA/IAF ex) as well as Ex Red Flag and Op Pitch Black and in Israel

In Fact Garud Recently cross trained with the Para's to take over a "hostile" Airfield and get the ATC up and running to handle IAF Aircraft.

PS JSOC is the CT command carved out of SOCOM. Most CSAR mission would fall to SOCOM elements not JSOC - PJs etc.

Another core objective would be to specialize in the emergency
extraction of downed IAF pilots or groups of SFFs or Para SFs isolated behind
enemy lines.
Yet, according to most interviewees, until now not much progress
has been made on these fronts

I would take a bunch of those interviews with a (big) pinch of Salt.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 14 Jan 2019 16:18

Singha wrote:from what i read
- garuds have no csar mission (yet) and there is not much a of jsocish dedicated csar planning. they are restricted to protecting vital iaf infra.
- sead/dead is expected to be done by fast wing jets using ARMs not helicopters . no heli in the world has the necessary sensors and missiles for this, let alone escaping a fight with a pantsyr or tor type system.

That is not correct.

Garud is fully slated for SEAD/DEAD - JTAC, CSAR mission profiles and trains hard for it. They have routinely demonstrated their capability at home (large scale IA/IAF ex) as well as Ex Red Flag and Op Pitch Black.

In Fact Garud Recently cross trained with the Para's to take over a "hostile" Airfield and get the ATC up and running to handle IAF Aircraft.

PS JSOC is the CT command carved out of SOCOM. Most CSAR mission would fall to SOCOM elements not JSOC - PJs etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jan 2019 18:44

I stand corrected then