Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

[Sachin]

51 women enter Sabarimala, says Govt.
And there have been questions raised on the authenticity of this statement. The list could be of women who registered at the Virtual Q scheme launched by K.P. Secondly the list also does not contain names of a few women (eg: The woman from Sri Lanka who was turned back) who actually came close the shrine. The name of that woman who made her up to look like an old woman is also not there. This seems to be more of a psychological attack on the pilrgims to some how convince them, they have lost the war. But looks like it has not many takers. The Hon.SC when shown the list said that "is not a matter for the court."

Another important aspect that all other demands of the woman activists & Indira Jai Singh was summarily thrown out. They would not be considered even during the hearing of review petitions.

So apart from the "party kammissar goons in uniform" most probably from Northern Kerala districts (and from beyond the state), there's a distinct possibility that non-Hindu policemen were disproportionately deployed to "keep the Ayyappa devotees in line".

Yes, very much. And there were also repeated concerns raised on the religious identity of the policemen deployed. But K.P and GoKL kept on saying that policemen do not get deployed based on their religious identity. And Sabari Mala also had a vulnerable angle here; it was one of those rare temples where any man can come irrespective of his religion. In all other major temples in South & Central Kerala non-Hindus are not allowed. Which also essentially means that the jurisdictional police stations (and SHOs etc.) will have more Hindus in the station strength. BTW, there were no "out of state" police men who worked alongside K.P in desecrating the temple. It was a full "internal job".

With politically suitable security forces who will not hesitate to shoot the unarmed public peaceful opposing the rulers, the communist utopia is in place in KL. Pity PV did not have tanks to roll on.

Agree. Kerala is now witnessing a USSR type communist regime for the first time. Totally dictatorial with every state machinery now working for a dictator. If Kerala voters do not "smell the coffee" even now, then it is better to leave them to their fate.

Mean while...
SP Yathish Chandra asked us to enter into church, says Orthodox Metropolitan.
Remember this gent? He is the same chap who acted all uppity at Sabari Mala. Now he has also shared his gyaan to Orthodox church believers who got a solid whacking yesterday when they tried to enter a church under control of a rival (Jacobite) sect.

[Yagnasri]

As I posted before no one from outside or inside KL really help KL Hindus if they do not take proper political decisions. Both the main political formations are anti Hindu and if they voters are going to vote for one or another alternatively also there will be slow fall of Hindu political power resulting in many of this kind of incidences.

[ramana]

If CPM is dressing up its party workers in police uniforms that is an IPC offence.
Impersonating a govt officer.
How come no legal case has been filed yet?
And why don't we see hartal/gherao of CPM MLAs and boycott of their families?
Waiting 3 years for elections is not helpful.

I think the KH elite/intellectuals are messing up the ordinary KH swamis sacrifices.
That Rahul Esawar has not learnt any lesson of the damage he has done.
A couple of swamis need to learn him.


Yagnasri I submit its the police but the KH elite who are helping PV desecrate the temple.

[ramana]

https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/108 ... 46816?s=19


#TNExclusive: List of 51 women who entered Sabarimala exposed by TIMES NOW, some listed as women are men. Left misleading the Court

@RShivshankar on #SabarimalaHoax https://t.co/jcCYnw7hHV

[ramana]

This tweet is 4 hours now but not posted here.
Have become resigned to PV and given up the fight?

[Sachin]

The tall claim of the CPI(M) led Kerala Govt that 51 women have entered the shrine with "police protection" has become one big joke. Multiple news channels have exposed the hollowness of the claim, and commies have once again landed up with multiple eggs on their faces.

Sabarimala: Row over age of women mentioned on Kerala govt list.

TimesNow TV then confirmed that two people - Kala, and Deivasigamani were men and NOT women at all. Looks like the Kerala Police "techies" did some minor corrections in their Virtual Q database and came up with a cooked up list. And they being commie sympathisers are clueless on names of people from other places in India. They may have thought Deivasigamani was the name of a woman . Few Malayalam online portals have given further expose to the sham. #21 in the list is Paramjyothi who again; is a male. The mobile phone numbers given against the names often are that of men.

Surprisingly the names of a few people who actally claimed to have gone up the hill temple is also missing. Example the woman (X-ian??) who actually claimed to have dyed her hair white and made the climb, as well one among the two activists. And the list does NOT even have one name from Kerala. Looks like the Kerala Police have manipulated their virtual Q database and came up with some names (and ensured that all people are not from Kerala) hoping that it would pass the muster and no body would do a follow up check on the data.

If CPM is dressing up its party workers in police uniforms that is an IPC offence.

That is not the case. The police men involved are fully trained police men, who have undertaken the oath to the state to uphold the law. But what also happens is that like any thing else, police is heavily politicised in Kerala. Kerala was also one of the earliest states which allowed "police associations" whose elections are always fought on party lines (again Congress & CPI(M)). So what has happened is that there are lots of police men who are absolute party loyalists, and are actually party workers more than being law enforcement officers.

[Lilo]

There are "temporary police" from places like Thrissur(academy) and "police trainees" recruited and based at Kerala's commie hotspots like Kannur being deployed into Sabarimala - since Pinaray Vijayan and his commissars began desecration of Sabarimala on the directions of Supreme Court.

The training period is 9 months for constables so the commies would have been prepared for this from before 2018 - for example that Ashik Jafer guy identified beating Swami's in Sabarimala has only passed out from training in 2017.
Most of these new recruits and trainees from such irregular recruitment and commie hotspots - i expect will be those with hardcore commie/anti-Hindu "party credentials" - and having the motivation to beat even peaceful Swami Sharanam chanting pilgrims to a pulp as demonstrated.

....Over 500 police personnel have been sent to Sabarimala for special duty from Thrissur district and 459 from Idukki. Authorities used to spare Kannur from such large-scale drain in the past due to the district's politically volatile nature. However, 175 personnel, including 50 women and 900 trainees, from the Kerala Armed Forces battalion based in Mangattuparambu(this is in Kannur) have been deployed in Sabarimala this year.
....
'Temporary police'
Thrissur(It has the Kerala police academy which trains recruits) has initiated a move to appoint ex-services personnel and local people in the pattern of Home Guards...

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... tions.html

[Sachin]

There are "temporary police" from places like Thrissur(academy) and "police trainees" recruited and based at Kerala's commie hotspots like Kannur being deployed into Sabarimala

There is a slight misunderstanding here. "Temporary Police" have not got deployed in Sabari Mala. Every district collector (DC) has powers to appoint civilians as "Special Police Officers" (SPO) for a very limited time, and at a specific location. As an NCC cadet I myself have been an SPO during two elections. But such postings do not exceed 48 hours and would be within the district under the jurisdiction of the "appointing authority". So recruiting large number of SPOs from all over Kerala, and then sending them up to Sabari Mala would not happen. At the maximum every district collector can have recruit SPOs to ensure that they have SPOs to do some rudimentary policing in their districts. That again because they have send up the actual police men to Sabari Mala. The report you quoted does state this explicitly - Thrissur has initiated a move to appoint ex-services personnel and local people in the pattern of Home Guards for traffic regulation in the city.

In Kerala police recruit training generally happens in what is known as "Armed Police Battalions", spread across the state. Most of the 9 months training happens at these seven camps. KEPA (Kerala Police Academy) located at Thrissur generally have one battalion (1st K.A.P) undergoing training there. And recruits from other camps also join in for some part of their training. At certain times KEPA is also used as the venue of the "passing out parade" of recruits from all other battalions (because it is the biggest police training establishment in Kerala). Sub Inspector recruits also have KEPA as their main training station.

The nearest police camp at Sabari Mala is at Maniyar in Idukki Dt. (5th Bn. KAP) with the next closest being another camp at Pathanamthitta (3rd Bn. KAP). When the first round of protests happened (right after the verdict) it would be mainly the recruits from the 5th Bn who was put on duty. The people who witnessed the "lathi charge" etc. have clearly confirmed that none of the police men had their name badges or the "cap badges" on their caps. This was a clear indication that they were "recruits" who have not even finished their training. Caps with cap badge, and a name board with a CPO number is a must for every policeman who has finished his training.

Till date posting to Sabari Mala is always done after getting a "willing" from the police man. Compelling any one to do a duty at the hill shrine is very rare (and it may work only in A.P Battalions). And there were always more police men "willing" to do a stint of duty at the hill temple. Young men from the armed police battalions generally is the bulk of the "police force", but they were also under supervision of more experienced police men from the "local police" (i.e policemen who actually work out of police stations in the state). There was a scheme in which each police range was given a "tenure" of duty at Sabari Mala, and this was for a period of around 15-20 days. Based on that each police range provided officers in ranks of SPs, Dy.SPs, Inspectors, Sub Inspectors and constabulary.

What has happened this time around is that communist GoKL formed special police teams byepassing all these standard practises. These special police teams were basically party loyalists, and from North Kerala (the CM's area). These were all hand picked men, and no one knows their religious identity. Such schemes came to practise when the first attempt to get two activists failed miserably. After this every superior officer who was an Ayyappa Bhaktha was kept away from the temple. But we must also accept the fact that many of the "timely leaks" to media like Janam.TV may have come from police personnel themself . What is happening today is a desperate attempt by a communist government (under whose pay roll??) trying to use a set of "party loyalists" police men to mess up things in the hill temple.

PS: Each A.P Battalion in Kerala generally also have a few districts from where the recruits come from. So at times we may find certain battalions to have more people from a religious background in higher numbers.

[Lilo]

^
Thanks for clearing that up Sachin ji, I was under the impression that the adhoc Temporary police were not only relieving the local police to go to Sabarimala and but were also moving up to become recruits at the academy at Thrissur at a later date and then being deployed in Sabarimala while in their recruit phase of 9 months.

From your post i now understand that GoKL hand picked teams of party pasand police officers,and is putting recruits in training from academy(who will be under probation - so motivated -like those 900 recruits from Mangattuparambu KAP in Kannur) at their disposal and deploying them for Sabarimala desecration activities .

[ramana]

No warning. No provocation.
Police officer Muhamed Shakir punches Ayyappa devotee protesting against the desecration of #Sabarimala by #UrbanNaxals and chanting 'Swamiye Ayyappa'.
This, in the Muslim majority Malappuram district, North #Kerala https://t.co/JIGGL0MY6k

[Dileep]

One more day to go at Sabarimala.

The two wimmin who were turned back two days ago showed up again early this morning at Nilackal, but police says they were sent back. While not discounting the capability of the govt to shoot the foot off, I am pretty sure that no more serious attempt is likely to happen.

Here is the data of cases and arrests src todays Manorama:

[UlanBatori]

Pinnarayi and Yatish Chandra are really women: Kerala Govt

That said, let me post in chaste non-Pingreji Angreji suitable even for "non-Member" readers of BRF whose delicate feelings are offended by such terms as BB.

1. As I understand, the "Bharat" in "Bharat Rakshak" refers to the nation presently known as India, which is about what remains of the Bharatavarsha from the days when the rain that fell east of the Caucasus and west of Mt. Fuji all flowed through Akhand Bharat.
2. Said India has a Constitution.
3. Said Constitution provides for a Court System to resolve questions and disagreements about what is correct under the Constitution, and maybe, just maybe also use some brains to decide what is Right (as in Just, not non-Left) as well as Correct.
4. Said Court System is led (if that word can be used without ) by the Most Honourable and Respected Supreme Court of India. Hereinafter referred to as "SC".
5. Said SC has ruled (while they had a break from fact-finding visits to bars to specify the length of undies to be worn by nude dancers) on a case brought before it (apparently without having gon through all the lower courts, which I thought was maybe limited to Nude Bar Fact-Finding Opportunities). The ruling was 4 to 1 as I understand but it would be exactly the same in effect as if it were 2.51 to 2.49. The ruling was that women of any age have the right to enter the Sabarimala Kshetram for the purpose of worshipping, provided they observe all the penances etc required of all other worshippers (I am not sure if 2-year-olds are required to not shave for 41 days, but that is for other experts to comment).

6. Review Petitions have been filed - dozens or hundreds of them - regarding everything that the SC has ever "decided", but some that are 80 years old are still "pending" so that may be a bit of a wait.
7. The SC specifically declined to "STAY' their ruling in #5 until any such Petition is heard and decided. In other words, the ruling in #5 IS THE LAW OF THE LAND under the Constitution, and as specifically stated by the Supreme Court.
8. Given the above, those who not only refuse to obey the ruling, but obstruct those who are exercising their rights, and even resort to physical violence or threat of that to intimidate those trying to exercise their rights, are very clearly ***O U T L A W S**** Does not matter whether they are most Devout and chanting "prayers" while obstructing citizens exercising their rights. They are still ***O U T L A W S****.
9. The State Government is pledged to respect the Constitution, and carry out decisions of the Supreme Court.
***************************************

Now for (my) personal opinions:
1. I am not happy about what happened in the SC. At the end of the day, post-mortem review suggests that the lawyers representing those who insisted on denying women of a certain age group access, did an incompetent job of articulating the issues. The other side argued clearly and under the Constitution.
2. The Denyers (I am most certainly not describing them as "Hindus", let alone "Sanatana Dharmis" for reasons explained below) resorted to arguments based on {The Deity has said that}. This is garbage. I as Hindu, SD proponent etc, do not recognize any such Middleman Authorities who have the exclusive WhatsApp Number of The Deity to be told these things that the Deity does not choose to reveal directly to TheirHonners' intracranial spaces. I don't subscribe to Witch Doctors, Aryan Supremacists, KKK, Al Qaeda, RollsRoyce Sex-Swamis, (Sri)^4, Beehive Hairdo Swamis, ppl wearing thick golden robes and aircraft-carrier superstructure on their heads, in Kerala humidity, or others who claim to have Direct Line to the Almighty. All Pretenders. Need to be kicked out like the MoneyLenders from the Temple, or Rakshasas from Yagas.
3. The court case may have been brought by people with ulterior motives far removed from the Right To Worship. It was up to the weanies representing "Hindus" to do basic due diligence and bring out those facts in the trial, not about it afterwards.
4. At this point, the best bet is a Uniform Civil Code guaranteeing access to **ALL** designated places of worship to **ALL** who observe the REASONABLE, Constitutionally valid rituals and disciplines for access. Lack of control over bodily functions may be grounds for special treatment/provisions under the Differently-Abled Persons laws. Access for children below a certain age like 5, or old folks above, say, 120, may be ill-advised because of physical risks in being stuck in a crush, unable to breathe and likely to be stampeded.
5. The argument "Government Out Of Our Holy Places!" is being advanced as some form of "separation of Church and State". BS. Government is obliged to respect the rights of all to their Right to Worship.
6. "Devotees" many be rightfully upset at Polis in cow-leather boots stomping inside the sacred premises. OK, so protest THAT and ask the court to ban that. Surely the polis can be provided blastic balloons to wear on their feet if needed? Or wooden shoes?
7. Some posts are veering uncontrolled into such things as questioning the religious affiliation or beliefs of specific police personnel as Qualification Check to be allowed to go near the temple. BS! I cannot believe Bharat Rakshak tolerating that - a very sad decline in standards indeed. Did you ban non-Hindus from scaling the peaks of Kargil into the teeth of Pakistani machinegun fire? Did Havildar Abdul Hamid do a ghar-vapasi before standing his ground and destroying Pakistani tanks in 1965?
Admins here should be ashamed of the example that they are setting in this respect.

I hope I have not inadvertently used "cryptic" language or otherwise offended the sensibilities of the Intellectual Believers here. If you don't like the fact that you are caught arguing for outlaws, tough. Eat it.

Revelation: THIS was always my role in BRF. Kicking Pakis when opportunity presented itself, but otherwise, keeping the Holy Blood of the Holies, well, warm. I have done Ghar Vapasi!

[Kashi]

UBJi, there's a whole lot of condescending verbal diaorrhea in there, but let me respond specifically to some of your comments that for a lack of better word are ordering on asinine.

OUTLAW, do you share the opinion that bold-face somehow makes it more pertinent? Citizens exercising their rights that happen to be of very specific ideological persuasion, especially one that claims to not even recognise the existence of a deity in the first place, have suddenly found their inner piousness?

OUTLAW?? You do realise that during the colonial Raaj, Bhagat Singh, Sukhdev, Rajguru, Chandrashekhar Azad, Ram Prasad Bismil, Ashfaqullah et al were also demeed outlaws and not just that, terrorists? under the same law, Netaji was declared a war criminal and Churchill and Stalin deemed great conquerors.

The state government is "pledged to respect the Constitution, and carry out decisions of the Supreme Court."

Funny where that pledge went to when it came to imposing the constitutional edict at the Piravam? Or is this a new constitutional mandate where the state is free to cherry pick the "pledges".

And why this sudden display of pseudo-righteousness when some members rightfully called out the political and ideological beliefs of the police force of state that pioneered the concept of party-affiliated police associations in the first place?

Do you remember, when ASI was asked to take up excavation at RJB site, it was mandated by the judiciary that the archaeological team make it a point to include members of a different religious denomination.

Since when did judicial benches set up to review laws such as TT necessitate the constitution of a "multi-cultural" bench?

Where was the outrage and the indignant squawk of the mythical "tolerance"?

Well, if you do not like the fact that like the Komraid you "don't like the fact that you are caught arguing" "while not really following your own "high morals", well tough. You will be called out, Ghar wapsi or not. Eat it.

[UlanBatori]

whole lot of condescending verbal diaorrhea

OK, enough of that, grow up, go take Pepto-Bismol and return if you intend civilized discussion. I can understand that hearing the truth can cause severe indigestion, don't worry you can get over it.

Just one point: Last I checked Indians had votes and a free country, so there is no honest reference or comparison to pre-1947. It may be time to get out of the mode of behaving like colonial slaves? Fight your battles in the courts instead of throwing stones at buses or otherwise harassing innocents? So yes, someone who disregards the laws in a free country is an OUTLAW, not a "freedom fighter". The police have the full authority of the constitution to beat the cra* out of protestors if they defy lawfully-passed prohibitory orders. OK, vote the government out and pass new laws.
Point is, either you respect the law or you don't. The second option makes you an outlaw in a free country.

And there is no difference between a "devotee" beating up someone for exercising their lawful rights, and a KKK bedsheeted idiot burning crosses and lynching a fellow citizen for exercising their lawful rights. Both deserve to be shot on sight, good riddance.

[Kashi]

Likewise UBJi, likewise.

I apologise for the choice of words though. Should have left it at condescending.

[Dileep]

Sabarimala Karma Samithi is requesting donations to provide legal support to those who are in jail in connection to the SaveSabarimala struggle.

Here is the FB link. It is in Malayalam.

Smt Sasikala is requesting donations of at last Rs 100 and run it as a challenge in the video. The account and the bank details are legit.

There are unscrupulous elements who forward it with the account changed to the CMDRF, so please be wary of them.

[Lilo]

In india the Courts have become a law onto themselves and figuratively stomp the Constitution of India daily under their feet.

All the hizzoners came to occupy their position via a sham process of self appointment called Collegium - which sees the travesty(no where else seen in any major democracy) of Judges appointing Judges and expanding their coterie.They completely upended the original scheme of Executive appointing judges as clearly specified in our Constitution.

Which is why all the MPs & MLA's of the polity (i.e both the Ruling party and the opposition parties led by congress) duly elected by the people of India passed a Law called NJAC in 2014 intending to rein in the unaccountable Courts which have become a law onto themselves.
Even such a law passed by overwhelming majority of Parliament and a majority of state legistlatures representing the collective democratic will of the Billion plus indians was unconstitutionally struck down by the Hizzoners you are so enarmoured with UB ji.They clearly reminded the dutty unwashed indians supposedly with no regard to the "rule of law" as per you that we live in an era of judicial dictatorship.

All this "the dutty Yindoos" should have presented the case in a better manner before the benign avuncular Judges whose lily white hearts were beating for nothing but the principle of impartial Justice is BS.
The self appointed often deracinated Judiciary presiding over the dutty unwashed heathens of India is no different to the Colonial judges of the yore wearing blonde wigs and behaving more white than the white man - imposing the white mans burden of dispossessing the dutty heathens of their arms , lands or lives or hope.May be you cannot see sitting in ulanbator enjoying the benefits of jury system and a president appointing judges to their posts in accordance to popular will but here in dutty India the Judges decide the case period. evidence or arguments be damned. And those Judges appoint themselves.

An illegitimate process as it is decided by those illegitimately occupying their chairs trampling over the rights of Crores with their spurious logic working on behest of BIF forces to whom they owe their illegitimate position in life to.

For you as per hegel's precept the State (even in such a perverted form) may be the walking embodiment of the God's will but for us dutty unwashed heathens such a Judiciary is nothing but an abomination.
Guess as per you Indians should have accepted the ruling of the oiropean judges presiding over their lives in the British raj or the Nazi or Stalinist state's violent prescriptions of what constitutes "Law and order". You can follow such prescriptions of an illegitimate & violent state to the T just dont draw us into your blind worship of the Judiciary/State as it stands.

[Lilo]

UBji,
Addressing your other concern that members should not discuss the motivation of the constituents of the state apparatus beating the resisting population to a pulp on a communist State's diktats ...

Why cant we ?

Why are you comparing the Heroes who scaled the Kargil peaks to expel the enemy on the border to those desecrating Sabarimala under an illegitimate court's direction and crushing peaceful Swamy Sharanam chanting pilgrims under their boots with no badges or nameplates on their uniform?(iam talking about the trainees here)

The State when it wants to impose "its" will violently on its own people will often use the standard tactic of pitting one community against the another - there are countless examples in Indian situation if you want me to quote.

This IS BRF and such illegitimate aspects of the State when it resorts to violence on its own citizens is not beyond discussion.

[Sachin]

The two wimmin who were turned back two days ago showed up again early this morning at Nilackal, but police says they were sent back.

They made another attempt today and facing protests the police whisked them away. But K.P being the cheapos they are, I expect them to push up the women tomorrow (20th Jan) morning. The temple closes at 0600Hrs tomorrow after a Pooja, which generally only watched by the members of the Pandalam Royal Family. The police can use brute force to push the women, and the pilgrims may already have thinned out by the previous (19th Jan) evening. The women & some men activists are all from the Chief Minister's district (and equally uncultured) so this could be a "prestige issue" for the commies.

[Pulikeshi]

2. The Denyers (I am most certainly not describing them as "Hindus", let alone "Sanatana Dharmis" for reasons explained below) resorted to arguments based on {The Deity has said that}. This is garbage. I as Hindu, SD proponent etc, do not recognize any such Middleman Authorities who have the exclusive WhatsApp Number of The Deity to be told these things that the Deity does not choose to reveal directly to TheirHonners' intracranial spaces. I don't subscribe to Witch Doctors, Aryan Supremacists, KKK, Al Qaeda, RollsRoyce Sex-Swamis, (Sri)^4, Beehive Hairdo Swamis, ppl wearing thick golden robes and aircraft-carrier superstructure on their heads, in Kerala humidity, or others who claim to have Direct Line to the Almighty. All Pretenders. Need to be kicked out like the MoneyLenders from the Temple, or Rakshasas from Yagas.
3. The court case may have been brought by people with ulterior motives far removed from the Right To Worship. It was up to the weanies representing "Hindus" to do basic due diligence and bring out those facts in the trial, not about it afterwards.
4. At this point, the best bet is a Uniform Civil Code guaranteeing access to **ALL** designated places of worship to **ALL** who observe the REASONABLE, Constitutionally valid rituals and disciplines for access. Lack of control over bodily functions may be grounds for special treatment/provisions under the Differently-Abled Persons laws. Access for children below a certain age like 5, or old folks above, say, 120, may be ill-advised because of physical risks in being stuck in a crush, unable to breathe and likely to be stampeded.

...
I hope I have not inadvertently used "cryptic" language or otherwise offended the sensibilities of the Intellectual Believers here. If you don't like the fact that you are caught arguing for outlaws, tough. Eat it.

Revelation: THIS was always my role in BRF. Kicking Pakis when opportunity presented itself, but otherwise, keeping the Holy Blood of the Holies, well, warm. I have done Ghar Vapasi!

Never knew there are self-appointed board members on BRF with self-assigned roles. Congrats!
Being a nobody - no self appointed or nominated role - poster on this site since its inception - who cares?
That said - you should consider understanding the difference between Believers and Seekers. There is no belief in the SD you claim to know!
You make this personal when it is not - we are each free to waste time typing opinions on what are depressing facts!

If you do not understand SD’s devotion vs.the practice of Agamas or the legal codes of the Smriti or for that matter that Constitution that you hold as dear law.... which is based on all Dharma things said above - what we end up with is your rather condescending but irrelevant response.
In fact neither do you understand the law, nor do you understand its substrate SD, but you perhaps stayed one wink awake in deracinated civics class! Thankfully, ignorance is neither a duty, nor a right but you seem to seek that belief with a vengeance and flag wave it a intellectual dictum.
Blundering away just jackbooted ignoramus step in sync with the Commie goons running God’s own country!

You better believers this, the SD seekers remain as John Paul John said - “I have not yet begun to fight!”
This is a repeat from many moons ago on BRF when I’d said: “Ulanbatori est grand, je suis toute petite!”
Or in other words - whose fpather, bhat goes?

[kiranA]

Now for (my) personal opinions:
1. I am not happy about what happened in the SC. At the end of the day, post-mortem review suggests that the lawyers representing those who insisted on denying women of a certain age group access, did an incompetent job of articulating the issues. The other side argued clearly and under the Constitution.
2. The Denyers (I am most certainly not describing them as "Hindus", let alone "Sanatana Dharmis" for reasons explained below) resorted to arguments based on {The Deity has said that}. This is garbage. I as Hindu, SD proponent etc, do not recognize any such Middleman Authorities who have the exclusive WhatsApp Number of The Deity to be told these things that the Deity does not choose to reveal directly to TheirHonners' intracranial spaces. I don't subscribe to Witch Doctors, Aryan Supremacists, KKK, Al Qaeda, RollsRoyce Sex-Swamis, (Sri)^4, Beehive Hairdo Swamis, ppl wearing thick golden robes and aircraft-carrier superstructure on their heads, in Kerala humidity, or others who claim to have Direct Line to the Almighty. All Pretenders. Need to be kicked out like the MoneyLenders from the Temple, or Rakshasas from Yagas.
3. The court case may have been brought by people with ulterior motives far removed from the Right To Worship. It was up to the weanies representing "Hindus" to do basic due diligence and bring out those facts in the trial, not about it afterwards.
4. At this point, the best bet is a Uniform Civil Code guaranteeing access to **ALL** designated places of worship to **ALL** who observe the REASONABLE, Constitutionally valid rituals and disciplines for access. Lack of control over bodily functions may be grounds for special treatment/provisions under the Differently-Abled Persons laws. Access for children below a certain age like 5, or old folks above, say, 120, may be ill-advised because of physical risks in being stuck in a crush, unable to breathe and likely to be stampeded.
5. The argument "Government Out Of Our Holy Places!" is being advanced as some form of "separation of Church and State". BS. Government is obliged to respect the rights of all to their Right to Worship.
6. "Devotees" many be rightfully upset at Polis in cow-leather boots stomping inside the sacred premises. OK, so protest THAT and ask the court to ban that. Surely the polis can be provided blastic balloons to wear on their feet if needed? Or wooden shoes?
7. Some posts are veering uncontrolled into such things as questioning the religious affiliation or beliefs of specific police personnel as Qualification Check to be allowed to go near the temple. BS! I cannot believe Bharat Rakshak tolerating that - a very sad decline in standards indeed. Did you ban non-Hindus from scaling the peaks of Kargil into the teeth of Pakistani machinegun fire? Did Havildar Abdul Hamid do a ghar-vapasi before standing his ground and destroying Pakistani tanks in 1965?
Admins here should be ashamed of the example that they are setting in this respect.

I hope I have not inadvertently used "cryptic" language or otherwise offended the sensibilities of the Intellectual Believers here. If you don't like the fact that you are caught arguing for outlaws, tough. Eat it.

Revelation: THIS was always my role in BRF. Kicking Pakis when opportunity presented itself, but otherwise, keeping the Holy Blood of the Holies, well, warm. I have done Ghar Vapasi!

This is a beautiful post. Kudos to UB for this. Not just Indian constitution no civilized society will restrict access to a public place whether it be a shop or a temple or restaurant based on the birth or biological markers like menstruation. People can self restrict themselves based on belief but a state really cant. In addition within Indian context right to worship in a hindu temple is particularly sensitive and has a special mention in the constitution because of centuries of discrimination against dalits temple entry.

Saying that the presence of a particular life offends diety is fine as a belief but it is immoral not just illegal to act on such beliefs and retrict the movement of another person.

While this particular instance is uncomfortable because there are so many such injustices in Indian society and one can argue whether this really requires such swift judgement when your honnours duck and dive when it comes to even more old cases such ramjanma bhoomi. But one cant really dispute the judgement.

[sudarshan]

When performing puja, my grandpa would take a bath, wear fresh clothes, and then totally avoid contact with anybody (even the closest family members) till he was finished. None of us were allowed to even approach him, let alone touch him, and we would get summarily shooed away if we even accidentally got in the way. If you don't understand this concept of ritual purity in Hinduism, you will not understand Sabarimala. This is the reason why the priests in temples (in general) also avoid contact with the laity, because they are not sure of the state of cleanliness (physical and mental) of those people. The priests trust that the other priests have purified themselves before approaching the deity, so they are (relatively) okay with contact among themselves.

Now when a deity is specifically observing brahmacharya, and humbly requests women of a certain age to stay away, any self-respecting woman would honor that request, rather than throw herself at him in the name of "gender equality." In fact, Hindu women understand and respect this concept of brahmacharya very well, which is why they stay away voluntarily. The men who are allowed to visit the temple don't get a free pass either, they have to purify themselves through abstinence for 41 days before they even approach the shrine. So what exactly is the problem here? There are more temples in India which restrict men's entry than those which restrict women's entry. As a man, I'm fine with that, I'm fine with respectfully staying away from those "female-only" temples, and I'm not going to listen to any busybody activist male who tells me that those temples are "discriminating against men."

[Pulikeshi]

This is a beautiful post. Kudos to UB for this. Not just Indian constitution no civilized society will restrict access to a public place whether it be a shop or a temple or restaurant based on the birth or biological markers like menstruation. People can self restrict themselves based on belief but a state really cant. In addition within Indian context right to worship in a hindu temple is particularly sensitive and has a special mention in the constitution because of centuries of discrimination against dalits temple entry.

Saying that the presence of a particular life offends diety is fine as a belief but it is immoral not just illegal to act on such beliefs and retrict the movement of another person.

While this particular instance is uncomfortable because there are so many such injustices in Indian society and one can argue whether this really requires such swift judgement when your honnours duck and dive when it comes to even more old cases such ramjanma bhoomi. But one cant really dispute the judgement.

Road to hell and good intentions and all that...
Who told you that a temple is a public place? Your commie edited deracinated civics textbook?
When a Rajan was coronated in India they were advised to seek the diversity of the garland - even if there are some flowers not as sweet - to the
Charcoal of homogeneity and uniformity - simple enough but made the point that there needs to be respect for all traditions... burnt charcoal may appear uniform, but it destroys society and its fabric. The deracinated desire to achieve synthetic unity and homogeneity therefore leads to...

Self-flagellation - appeal to alien social-contact based on a road to depravity called individuality - claim modernity - all are equal onlee!

PS: like I’ve mentioned many times before I have no issues with women eventually being admitted into Sabarimala, but this means and method to achieve this idiocy and the choice to pick these “good intentions” armed with ignoramus sanctimonious misunderstanding of social-contracts leads one back to that dark day when Hakka and Bukka nearly gave up on their Dharma and went the way of the Abrahamics - one sees the temptation to save oneself from the idiocy of the fellow Dharmic - why fight when the fellow to your side is pusillanimous stupidity - aachk thooo!
The heathen in his blindness onlee!

[Dileep]

The constitution grants us right to (peacefully) assemble and protest. Thousands who took part in the 'nama japa yatra' and 'ayyappa jyothi' are charged with police case. Now.. what is that called? Remember. These were 100% peaceful assembly at locations that did not have prohibitory orders. No one was blocked from anything either.

Unrelatedly: I was blocked by "protestors" from entering my workplace on 8th and 9th (general strike). The police advised me to go back and I did. Would the police assemble a 200 men force to get me into my workplace? Of course not!!

And the police have no power to beat up someone who protest someone else from doing what she has a legal right to do. Get that? The police have power to use force only when there is a law and order issue. This is actually demonstrated at several occasions, where the police simply arrested and moved the protestors (not beating up).

Let me ask you this. In good old first world Mongolia, if someone blocks you from entering a place, will the cops shoot (which is Mongolian equivalent to the KP yelling 'പിരിഞ്ഞു പോകണം {please disperse}) them to let you in? Maybe they will if the protestors are black. But ideally, no. they need to get a court order to act etc etc.

The point is, the GoKL uses its sidearm KP to illegally prosecute their agenda, like the Briturs did before Independence. And you, like many desis during the independence movement, want to go to court!!

The people who actually did the blockage at the 'sarana trail' did the right thing. They did not become violent. They sat down and protested. The only exception ever was the case of the lady by name Lalitha, where some threats and some push-pull happened. Maybe that is perpetrated by the DYFI folk. Maybe the RSS/SKS folk got carried away. I don't know. But that was the ONLY incident during the whole of close to 70 days of protest.

The police on the other hand, used force upon the peaceful protestors and charged them with fake charges like attempted murder.

Unfortunately, our court system is made by the Briturds. It is always biased towards the government. Sometimes it even feels that the function of the court (like the legislature) is to conduct government business. So, if the police charges you with a crime, you go to jail or get bail. It doen't matter whether you are obviously innocent. Even clear alibies doesn't matter. Police files charge on a non-bailable offense and the magistrate has to remand you.

So, what works? Your suggestion of "courts" doesn't work. Violence of course doesn't work.

Our system is British. What worked with British will only work.

Now, what actually worked? That is an issue of major debate.

[Lilo]

Now, what actually worked? That is an issue of major debate.

India may be saddled with a dysfunctional Judiciary - but it does have a functional electoral system.

Elect PIF govt at center with such a majority so that they may impeach one or two supreme court judges who have repeatedly overstepped their constitutional bounds amidst the thumping benches of Parliament.
When such an example is made of Hizzoners - this time the NJAC can be repromulgated and our original constitutional scheme of Judiciary being accountable to longterm people's will, will be reestablished.

This is the long term goal to achieve a functional Judiciary which we currently lack.

In the mean time at the state level, elect a govt in place which has the prudence to prevaricate and make hollow any such desecration orders passed by our BIF controlled Court instead of one which acts hand in glove with the Court's agenda.

[Karthik S]

This is a beautiful post. Kudos to UB for this. Not just Indian constitution no civilized society will restrict access to a public place whether it be a shop or a temple or restaurant based on the birth or biological markers like menstruation. People can self restrict themselves based on belief but a state really cant. In addition within Indian context right to worship in a hindu temple is particularly sensitive and has a special mention in the constitution because of centuries of discrimination against dalits temple entry.

Saying that the presence of a particular life offends diety is fine as a belief but it is immoral not just illegal to act on such beliefs and retrict the movement of another person.

While this particular instance is uncomfortable because there are so many such injustices in Indian society and one can argue whether this really requires such swift judgement when your honnours duck and dive when it comes to even more old cases such ramjanma bhoomi. But one cant really dispute the judgement.

Ah welcome back periyarist lemurian. BTW, what's a crypto like you doing in this thread? I remember you from the EJ discussion on telugu states thread. As with any of your posts, it only took 2 sentences to bring in your parochial universe of 'caste' into a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with caste. First person to do so in all these pages, congrats.

No civilized societies will allow it? Before you yet again make a fool of yourself, you better read about Mt Omine in Japan, if you have trouble calling Japan a 'civilized' country, then look up Mt Athos in Greece, if that's not enough, ask gowns in vatican why women can't become priests.

When in all these days, peevee could only manage non-believers (non hindus or who didn't know about the custom), commies to try to enter the temple, what does that tell you UBer rationalists?

[Dileep]

Someone asked me about transferring money to the account. I am not really updated on the currently available methods (other than SWIFT). It would be great if someone could advice here.

[Lilo]

^
Since you talk of Swift is it about overseas transfer ?
If thats the case one can use remittance services like xoom (of paypal) - transaction costs are low if paying direct from a bank account .
As the recipient bank here is Dhanlakshmi the money may get transferred with a lag(4 hours) and not immediately as it happens with other major banks like HDFC or PNB .
Another option is Remitly. If creating new accounts in these services, verification will take up some time.

[Dileep]

Well, within India everyone knows how to IMPS/NEFT. This is about transfer from abroad.

[kiranA]

When performing puja, my grandpa would take a bath, wear fresh clothes, and then totally avoid contact with anybody (even the closest family members) till he was finished. None of us were allowed to even approach him, let alone touch him, and we would get summarily shooed away if we even accidentally got in the way. If you don't understand this concept of ritual purity in Hinduism, you will not understand Sabarimala. This is the reason why the priests in temples (in general) also avoid contact with the laity, because they are not sure of the state of cleanliness (physical and mental) of those people. The priests trust that the other priests have purified themselves before approaching the deity, so they are (relatively) okay with contact among themselves.

Now when a deity is specifically observing brahmacharya, and humbly requests women of a certain age to stay away, any self-respecting woman would honor that request, rather than throw herself at him in the name of "gender equality." In fact, Hindu women understand and respect this concept of brahmacharya very well, which is why they stay away voluntarily. The men who are allowed to visit the temple don't get a free pass either, they have to purify themselves through abstinence for 41 days before they even approach the shrine. So what exactly is the problem here? There are more temples in India which restrict men's entry than those which restrict women's entry. As a man, I'm fine with that, I'm fine with respectfully staying away from those "female-only" temples, and I'm not going to listen to any busybody activist male who tells me that those temples are "discriminating against men."

Modern nations are built on brotherhood of blood and iron. Where people lay their lives so others of their nation can live in peace. Where people work day and night sharing food and brotherhood building fighter planes to economy. Ritual purity which presumes others are "dirty" unless proven "clean" has no place in it if we desire modernity and all its associated benefits. And this must apply to every facet of society including religion. Sorry I cant really pussyfoot around this after all this is a straight speaking defense forum and brotherhood fostered in armed forces is well appreciated by all. Even vivekananda complained of hinduism as kitchen religion. If we reform ourselves we can do it on our terms and keep our identity else ourselves others will do it for us on their terms. we already see this happening in so many areas.

The only complain here is the order of priority but not the necessity of it.

[kiranA]

The constitution grants us right to (peacefully) assemble and protest. Thousands who took part in the 'nama japa yatra' and 'ayyappa jyothi' are charged with police case. Now.. what is that called? Remember. These were 100% peaceful assembly at locations that did not have prohibitory orders. No one was blocked from anything either.

Unrelatedly: I was blocked by "protestors" from entering my workplace on 8th and 9th (general strike). The police advised me to go back and I did. Would the police assemble a 200 men force to get me into my workplace? Of course not!!

And the police have no power to beat up someone who protest someone else from doing what she has a legal right to do. Get that? The police have power to use force only when there is a law and order issue. This is actually demonstrated at several occasions, where the police simply arrested and moved the protestors (not beating up).

Let me ask you this. In good old first world Mongolia, if someone blocks you from entering a place, will the cops shoot (which is Mongolian equivalent to the KP yelling 'പിരിഞ്ഞു പോകണം {please disperse}) them to let you in? Maybe they will if the protestors are black. But ideally, no. they need to get a court order to act etc etc.

The point is, the GoKL uses its sidearm KP to illegally prosecute their agenda, like the Briturs did before Independence. And you, like many desis during the independence movement, want to go to court!!

The people who actually did the blockage at the 'sarana trail' did the right thing. They did not become violent. They sat down and protested. The only exception ever was the case of the lady by name Lalitha, where some threats and some push-pull happened. Maybe that is perpetrated by the DYFI folk. Maybe the RSS/SKS folk got carried away. I don't know. But that was the ONLY incident during the whole of close to 70 days of protest.

The police on the other hand, used force upon the peaceful protestors and charged them with fake charges like attempted murder.

Unfortunately, our court system is made by the Briturds. It is always biased towards the government. Sometimes it even feels that the function of the court (like the legislature) is to conduct government business. So, if the police charges you with a crime, you go to jail or get bail. It doen't matter whether you are obviously innocent. Even clear alibies doesn't matter. Police files charge on a non-bailable offense and the magistrate has to remand you.

So, what works? Your suggestion of "courts" doesn't work. Violence of course doesn't work.

Our system is British. What worked with British will only work.

Now, what actually worked? That is an issue of major debate.

There are several points in your post I agree. But what i dont agree is your characterization of "ayappa jyothi" crowd as protest. It is not. You are not protesting because anything that is owed to you is denied to you. You assembled to deny somebody else the right to their worship. It is at best picketing as long as it is done non-violently else it is repression. What next ? a "protest" to stop people looking at moon on vinayaka chavithi if they havent done puja that day because Parvathi is offended and misfortunes may befall on all. Scriptures say many things and often contradict each other. There was a time when scriptures said Hindus not to cross oceans but i dont see any protests at airports. one cant use scriptural statements as legal arguements. We have a constitution ofcourse there are other things like shariah law too which needs to go. But so does this as well.

[Karan M]

Great post.

As I grow older, I understand what your grandpa did and why these rules were placed. Deities are very powerful, there is a recurring theme in Hinduism about scattered thoughts or greed or parochial thoughts being placed before the deity and causing all sorts of trouble. There are repeated warnings. Hence it is if utmost importance to approach the deity with reverence, and a clear head, focused purely on the "right things", without any clutter or improper passion or distracting thoughts. I understand the logic of it, whilst understanding that as in any case this can be taken to extremes, used to discriminate or demean others. That's the tricky difference between well intentioned and serious efforts and ignorant/or malicious use of faith. We need the community to self police, and can't have blunt instruments like a westernized legal framework decide it for us. Which will happen until and unless real spiritual elders explain the practice and differentiate right from wrong and put guidelines in place.

Your last para rings true.

When performing puja, my grandpa would take a bath, wear fresh clothes, and then totally avoid contact with anybody (even the closest family members) till he was finished. None of us were allowed to even approach him, let alone touch him, and we would get summarily shooed away if we even accidentally got in the way. If you don't understand this concept of ritual purity in Hinduism, you will not understand Sabarimala. This is the reason why the priests in temples (in general) also avoid contact with the laity, because they are not sure of the state of cleanliness (physical and mental) of those people. The priests trust that the other priests have purified themselves before approaching the deity, so they are (relatively) okay with contact among themselves.

Now when a deity is specifically observing brahmacharya, and humbly requests women of a certain age to stay away, any self-respecting woman would honor that request, rather than throw herself at him in the name of "gender equality." In fact, Hindu women understand and respect this concept of brahmacharya very well, which is why they stay away voluntarily. The men who are allowed to visit the temple don't get a free pass either, they have to purify themselves through abstinence for 41 days before they even approach the shrine. So what exactly is the problem here? There are more temples in India which restrict men's entry than those which restrict women's entry. As a man, I'm fine with that, I'm fine with respectfully staying away from those "female-only" temples, and I'm not going to listen to any busybody activist male who tells me that those temples are "discriminating against men."

[Karan M]

There are several points in your post I agree. But what i dont agree is your characterization of "ayappa jyothi" crowd as protest. It is not. You are not protesting because anything that is owed to you is denied to you. You assembled to deny somebody else the right to their worship. It is at best picketing as long as it is done non-violently else it is repression. What next ? a "protest" to stop people looking at moon on vinayaka chavithi if they havent done puja that day because Parvathi is offended and misfortunes may befall on all. Scriptures say many things and often contradict each other. There was a time when scriptures said Hindus not to cross oceans but i dont see any protests at airports. one cant use scriptural statements as legal arguements. We have a constitution ofcourse there are other things like shariah law too which needs to go. But so does this as well.

If you don't understand or care for scriptures etc thats your prerogative, but don't sermonize practicing members on what they are either or bring in absurd comparisons.

If you troll in this thread as you have in others, while bringing in shariah law etc, and incite flamewars, you will be dealt with sternly. Keep that in mind.

[Dileep]

Replying to multiple posts:

I would rather have a "judicial activist" SC than a "kangaroo court" appointed by our netas. NaMo is an exception in Netas, not a rule. Would you trust the judge appointed by most of the netas today? I don't.

Specifically, the SM issue can't wait for the general changes. The solution is very much at the hand of the central govt. Make a legislation clarifying the rights of s Deity as a legal person and the issue goes poof!!

I wouldn't agree, if such a demand is made, to not to look at the moon on certain day, but I wouldn't deny any citizen the right to campaign for and peacefully protest. Being said that, what is the technical word in the science of debate for bringing in a parallel that is ridiculously irrelevant? A better example would be "not to look at the moon while inside the perimeter of a specific temple complex". Now... that wouldn't sound as ridiculous would it?

[Karan M]

Fair point Dileep, that's how support for judicial activism began. Problem is now Judicial activism may end up eliciting the same feelings people had for political decision making.

[Lilo]

The solution is very much at the hand of the central govt. Make a legislation clarifying the rights of s Deity as a legal person and the issue goes poof!!...

"Solution" Which is perpetually at the mercy of the unelected selfappointed hizzoners?

For your information after the SC first banned Jalikattu, NaMo govt passed a central notification giving exemption for Jallikattu , Kambala etc .
Then Peta (which never moved the courts for banning of inhuman slaughter of tied up animals by cutting their necks and wallowing in their own blood mutely for 5 minutes) again moved the Court and promptly got that notification allowing Jallikattu stayed by the hizzoners in SC within 6 days(the same court which is sitting on Ayodhya for decades).
Then the student agitation happened in TN next year and this time the same state polity which was luke warm when protesting against the SC imposed ban previous year fell in/didnt interfere with the widespread Student protests which had literally brought TN to a standstill - now citing these protests to SC and the inability of State to prosecute a ban on Jallikattu the TN state govt hurriedly passed an ordinance which was later passed as a law by a now bipartisan TN state legislature and was immediately given a seal of approval by NaMo's executive at center (as the matter falls under concurrent list).Seeing the height of protests and the united stand of Tamil people for Jallikattu the SC which could have as easily stayed the new TN state law and again banned Jallikattu now backed away and refused to ban it again.
But no one should rest easy that the lifting of Ban on Jallikattu is permanent because the Court will resume the agenda when a disunited/weak polity again presents itself either at the state level or at the center - because in India the Court is not accountable to anyone but the BIF interests which controlled the older Judges who have now appointed the current Judges and each Judge traces his lineage via the caches of Kompromat which controlled that particular collegium member/s who recommended that appointment.

Now do you clearly see the parallels of Jallikattu to Sabarimala and the implausibility of your "solution" that center can do something unilaterally here and supposedly the issue goes "poof"?

First under whose remit the law making will fall in case of Sabarimala?
Whether this matter is State list or Concurrent list or Central list ?
Sabarimala's "interstate pilgrimage" falls under the state list - so as per Constitution the center can only pass a law provided the concerned state assembly passes a resolution asking for it.
Do you currently have an assembly in Kerala which will pass a resolution asking for it ?

Some how say the resolution is passed by Kerala and the central govt steers a law expending it political capital to cajole Rahul Gandhi who controls the majority in rajya sabha (and who recently gave his full fledged support to desecration of Sabarimala by activist women) how do you claim that the Court which is driving the agenda from the start wont take away what the congies give by the left hand in Rajya Sabha?
The Court will probably within 5 days (i.e besting the within 6 days judgement striking down GoI's notification allowing jallikattu) step in to strike down the central law using its Judicial review power spuriously citing the Fundamental Right of Equality in the Constitution - all the while the commies and dhimmies in Kerala will be pillorying the BJP govt at center claiming that it stands against the interests of the women of Kerala & India - probably forming Human chains through Kerala's length and breadth and burning the effigies of NaMo.
So simply put let the people of Kerala ask for it through their assembly(all Hindus of Kerala must unitedly agitate for it so much so that Kerala could be brought to a standstill - in Jallikattu case the people of TN were stupefied in 2016 when SC struck down the Central notification - but they rallied and came together so much that by 2017 the Court was forced to do its temporary downhill skiing - who are stopping Hindus of Kerala from rallying themselves and achieve it by next year?) and the Center will promptly implement it as it did in case of Jallikattu (if not a law , at least an ordinance)
But center cant guarantee that "your" Court will not strike it down again - doing its cute "Judicial Activism" for "your" sake.

Everything else is a powerless search for a scapegoat.

[Lilo]

Replying to multiple posts:
I would rather have a "judicial activist" SC than a "kangaroo court" appointed by our netas. NaMo is an exception in Netas, not a rule. Would you trust the judge appointed by most of the netas today? I don't.

On the claim that the cute conception of "Judicial activism" of self appointed unelected unelectables (are they angels who dropped from the Heavens to adjudicate upon the corruption ridden dutty casteist communal bigoted parochial diseased unwashed heathens of India?) is better than the Constitutionally limited adjudication of home grown Judges appointed as per the our Constitution penned by leaders elected by the same unwashed heathens in 1950 who wrote and gave for themselves this dutty turdworld Constitution....I have quoted an old post from elsewhere

The question is that the NJAC isnt a solution either as it will mean political interference.Like what happened during the emergency.I believe that the elevation should be on basis of seniority and then a voting of the entire SC judges in secret ballot.
Same for elevation to HC.

I have seen this "red flag" of "political interference" being repeated at many Judicial places adnauseum simultaneously questioning any reform to allow for popular appointment of a hitherto self serving & self perpetuating Indian Judiciary.
So i'll quote again from an old post.

...
5)Characterising NJAC as a spoils system is true - but democracy itself is a spoils system.And spoils system is not bad as long as it reflects the ultimate will of the people & functional independence is provided - as evident in the operation of US Supreme courts.the best possible check is by regular elections in a Democratic system.This check exists for executive.Since Higher Judiciary is not having this check it should not have any role in its own appointments.Composition of Judiciary should reflect the longterm political balance of interests obtained in the country - all other principles are secondary to this right of appointment by the govt.

To add further to above,
When the Judges of the American Supreme Court are appointed by the elected politicians(they are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate), they supposedly suddenly turn out to be the "Independent" Supreme Court Judges as the Western world is prone to praise them.

But as soon as Indian elected parliamentarians led by the PM & his Cabinet seek to appoint a Judge as per our constitutional scheme - the whole of West(including the western institutions like World Bank,IMF, their minions in India including the MSM ,the hectoring Judges representing the MNC lobby & "Intellectuals" (nobel laureates,Rhodes or Fulbright scholars,eminent lawyers-i.e eminent court nephews)) gather together to shout "political interference" from the roof tops....

Is this because they think the illiterate unwashed Indians cannot differentiate between necessity of Political leadership in any legitimate appointment process to a Judiciary and the necessity to prevent Political interference in functioning of the same Judiciary ?

Are the above two principles antithetical to each other only in turd world country like India ?
Yet they are not antithetical and coexist in harmony only in the "civilized","advanced" and "modern" Western countries like USA and the rest ?
viewtopic.php?p=2043521#p2043521

^Dileep ji,
Do you know the difference between "Functional independence" guaranteed to the Judiciary in our Constitution after a constitutionally designated appointing authority picks and appoints a Judge to the Court vs "brazen defiance of Constitution to claim such a level of independence to go to the extent of even appointing themselves"?

...Being said that, what is the technical word in the science of debate for bringing in a parallel that is ridiculously irrelevant?

If this is being said referring to my posts highlighting the role of an illegitimate Judiciary upending Constitution and regularly going out of bounds by trampling over "cultural rights" of the heathens while pushing the "individual rights" agenda of the BIF camp's throught their PILs ... be it targeting seen in Jallikattu ,be it Sabarimala ,Holi ,Diwali,Dahi handi,Kambala,traditions of Kanwariyas ,Ganesh Chaturdhi and other similar communal activities of Hindus done on streets...
All such activities (religious or sport) which has capacity to strengthen Hindu community(via the repeated cycles of constructive destruction) & which strengthens the ties within the extended Hindu community(beyond caste and class and gender) in the longterm , especially if its a martial male oriented activity serving to heal the fissures of caste and class - is a target of the Breaking India forces(BIF) and the self appointed judges of the Supreme court who act as the willing handmaiden to BIF.

Remember this Dileep ji,
Even if the center temporarily manages to stick a bandaid on "your" wounds in Sabarimala by saying "poof" to it... no one can stave off the jackals surrounding Sabarimala and other Hindu activities as long as such BIF interests are wielding the unaccountable Judiciary of India like a blunt sledgehammer.Then what will you do when they come again using Courts? ask Center to stick another bandaid and say "poof" again?

[Dileep]

Lilo, my ref to "irrelevant example" was in response to kiranA's example of "looking at the moon".

No law granting special rights to SM, or anything pointing to gender etc will not stand in front of SC. What I ask for is a law defining the "Rights of Deity" pan India. This must happen at the centre. It would be very difficult for SC to quash it down as I see it.

I haven't looked at the NJAC / collegium issue deeply, so I can't really comment on the merits/demerits on that. I do not support anything unilateral in these things, including hereditary appointments. We should have a system with good checks and balances that's all.

[Yagnasri]

I take nata appointed Judges any day than the present day self perpetuating oligarchy. Good or bad netas has at least some answerability to the people and systems corrects itself. Lalu raj gave way to Nitish raj and so on. The quality of judges before the present system came in to pay was quite good and system far more responsive than today. The less we say about present state of affairs the better.

[uddu]

Have some questions regarding tradition and whether those traditions were followed by those who went up hill? Ain't it a necessity as per traditions that the first time Swamis must visit Vavar mosque and participate in pettathullal or the dance? before proceeding further? So if this is not conducted ain't it a violation of customs and also the secular ethos of Sabarimala? Another point is the Banyan tree where they have to keep an arrow before proceeding. Was this tradition done? If none of this is done, then Kerala govt and the Anti-Hindu activists acted in a manner againt the customs of Pilgrimage to Sabarimala? Why these points are not argued in court? These will land even KL govt in big trouble if taken up.So if they have to visit the mosque first will they not get arrested?