Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Jan 2019 14:16

abhik wrote:^^^Maybe I'm dense, but what does that mean?

It means another ship, Ka-31, Nethra or Phalcon provided the targeting information. Though this capability has been existing since INS Shivalik. It also means LRSAM flies longer than 70 km.

ks_sachin wrote:It means that a PR pr Comms person who does not know his or her job has drafted this piece of comms. What a load of drivel in terms of force and capability projection...

Or is deliberately using obfuscating words.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Jan 2019 14:29

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1090554253066756096 ---> Both ships will feature higher than usual levels of indigenous content. Their main offensive weapon will be the BrahMos missile. The hull-mounted sonar will be indigenous, as will be the on board combat management system.

Even Teg class has Indian HUMSA-UG sonar & BrahMos and we've a better missile in LRSAM. Pakistanis will get Shtil missile with their Type 54AP frigates. Not sure what we get pampering the Russians for an older design.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 31 Jan 2019 15:16

tsarkar wrote:
abhik wrote:^^^Maybe I'm dense, but what does that mean?
It means another ship, Ka-31, Nethra or Phalcon provided the targeting information. Though this capability has been existing since INS Shivalik. It also means LRSAM flies longer than 70 km.

ks_sachin wrote:It means that a PR pr Comms person who does not know his or her job has drafted this piece of comms. What a load of drivel in terms of force and capability projection...
Or is deliberately using obfuscating words.

Tsarkar sir.

I know that but all this obfuscation to what end - this is not rocket science...

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Jan 2019 15:37

ks_sachin wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Or is deliberately using obfuscating words.
Tsarkar sir. I know that but all this obfuscation to what end - this is not rocket science...

If you notice, the quote came from Israelis. They have a habit of deliberately obfuscating even simple things. And they refuse to speak plain English.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2019 16:53

my guess is a datalink between ships via radio or satcom was used to provide some target info but not full blown another ship guiding a SAM fired from launch ship - I am not sure even aegis is doing that.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Jan 2019 17:38

Singha wrote:my guess is a datalink between ships via radio or satcom was used to provide some target info but not full blown another ship guiding a SAM fired from launch ship - I am not sure even aegis is doing that.

Ofcourse, its updating the missile via datalink. Its an active homing missile, so no question of another ship guiding it. Infact Kolkata class has no missile guidance radar like MR-90 Orekh or Elta 2221 STGR.

As I mentioned earlier, another platform provided the targeting information (via datalink) and this capability exists since the Shivalik class.

tsarkar wrote:It means another ship, Ka-31, Nethra or Phalcon provided the targeting information. Though this capability has been existing since INS Shivalik.

John · Post by **John** » 31 Jan 2019 18:12

Tsarkar I believe this is referring the networking ability of Barak-8 where other MF-STAR can guide missiles ( in case of Barak-8 they provide mcg but they can provide illumination for Semi active radar guided missiles). So Chennai can be launch platform but Kolkata could provide target tracking and mid course guidance for Barak-8.

This greatly increases intercept capability against low flying supersonic Ashm where multiple ships can engage missile saturation attacks targeted on single ship. For Aster sam system only launch platform can provide mid course guidance.

tsarkar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1090554253066756096 ---> Both ships will feature higher than usual levels of indigenous content. Their main offensive weapon will be the BrahMos missile. The hull-mounted sonar will be indigenous, as will be the on board combat management system.
Even Teg class has Indian HUMSA-UG sonar & BrahMos and we've a better missile in LRSAM. Pakistanis will get Shtil missile with their Type 54AP frigates. Not sure what we get pampering the Russians for an older design.

Simple it is Putin bailout under the guise of Made in India. Could simply build more Shivalik or P-28 with Asuw emphasis. This has mess written all over it. Since these designs have never been exported, all said I will be surprised if they build before 2030 and cheaper than P-17a.

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Jan 2019 19:04

Despite we making strides in our local design and manufacturing, we have to keep some cash for buying friendship from US, France, Israel, Russia.

We don't have of getting hard friendship like US or Russia does, so this is our way of maintaining allies. This blackmailing will increase as we grow..

Everyone ones a finger in pie of a 3 to 5 tr arms buying..

Since we have to spend money, it is better go for joint projects...we can control selling of these arms.

naruto · Post by **naruto** » 31 Jan 2019 19:28

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1090968703850561537 --> Today at the Defence Acquisition Council meeting, Defence Ministry clears Rs. 40,000 crore project to build six submarines.
Are these SSN or the follow on of Scorpene SSK ?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2019 19:29

Project 75I.

That is surprising because the project has been languishing for more than a decade!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jan 2019 19:39

FORCE Magazine
‏

@FORCEmagazine
4m4 minutes ago
More
DAC approves P-75I submarines programme. Also cleared procurement of 5000 Milan ATGMs and 111 Naval Utility Helicopters

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 31 Jan 2019 19:43

So which subs will be P 75I?

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Jan 2019 20:34

DAC approval means dilly squat.

They will approve the same thing every couple of years.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2019 21:21

nam raised a good point. The DAC approved this program in October 2014 as well. Now they approved the program again. AFAIK, nothing has moved in 4+ years. Perhaps tsarkar or John can advise more on this.

Karthik S wrote:So which subs will be P 75I?

That is anyone's guess right now.

From a quick turnaround and logistics wise, a follow on order of Scorpenes would be best. But that will not happen due to the data leak scandal. If a repeat order of Scorpene does come, I would be surprised.

That leaves the other three contenders - Type 214 of Germany, Amur Class of Russia and A26 of Sweden.

1) A26 is a great boat, but on paper. If you go to the Saab website, one will get enamoured by brochuritis. I did!

Actual combat capability is a whole other story and that can only be ascertained when the first boat is put to sea. There is none, as the first boat for the Swedish Navy was laid only in 2015.
https://saab.com/naval/submarines-and-s ... gJ7PvD_BwE

2) Type 214. Great boat, but missing a key technology from the Type 212 - the non-magnetic steel hull. Also the German AIP tech (hydrogen fuel cell) may be a deal killer. Despite assurances, that is a cinder box waiting to explode.

3) Amur Class. There is a problem though. The Lada Class - from which the Amur Class is the export variant - has gone through significant growing pains. The Russian Navy did not want it, after the first boat in the class - the Sankt Peterburg - fell short of expectations. The boat went through a major redesign and the Russian Navy accepted the next two boats in the class, after the redesign. Whether the Russian Navy accepted the new design of their own free volition or had to reluctantly accept it, will never be known. But apparently the Russian Navy will be ordering a couple more boats, after the construction of the present two.

The key variable here is the BrahMos missile. Project 75I will have a VLS plug for a BrahMos missile. Saab of Sweden has apparently agreed to incorporate a BrahMos VLS plug, but then again Saab says anything to win a contract! HDW will likely agree as well. But since the BrahMos is a Indo-Russian joint venture, incorporating the missile on a Russian platform will be easiest for the Russians to swallow.

There is a dark horse candidate - the Soryu Class from Japan. The undisputed King of SSKs. Unfortunately, the candidate is *SO* dark to catch, the Indian Navy will never get her hands on it. The Japanese offered the boat to the Aussies (and lost to the Shortfin Barracuda from France), but not to us. There were talks that the Japanese will offer the Soryu to India, but nothing materialized.

Soryu Class
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sōryū-class_submarine

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2019 21:34

I have posted these articles numerous times before, but posting again....

Why Japan’s Soryu-Class Submarines Are So Good
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... good-17898

The Soryu class isn’t perfect, though: one major criticism of the boats during the Australian submarine competition was their relatively short operating range. At 6,100 nautical miles, the Soryu’s range wasn’t an issue for their original mission: protecting the home waters of Japan.

The largest Amur Class (1850) vessel does 6,000 nautical miles as per wiki chacha....

Japan Launches First Lithium-Ion Equipped Soryu-class Submarine
https://thediplomat.com/2018/10/japan-l ... submarine/

I believe lithium-ion is flammable as well. Whether it is equally flammable like the hydrogen fuel cell on the Type 212/214 is not something I know. Someone more knowledgeable on the subject can answer that question.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 31 Jan 2019 21:37

Thanks Rakesh. With Abe at the helm am surprised by their unwillingness to sell us Soryus.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2019 21:51

That is mystery to me as well Karthik. The only thing I can think of is the cost and that will kill the deal. She is ridiculously expensive.

As per wiki chacha, "The eleventh Soryu-class submarine (Ōryū), with improved underwater endurance by mounting lithium-ion batteries, was given a budget of US $536.7 million under the 2015 Japanese Defense Budget."

And again, as per wiki chacha, one Amur Class boat costs $450 million. Approximately US $100 million cheaper per boat. And the US $536.7 million is the cost the Japanese Navy is paying. For India, that cost will be even higher. They will want to make profit. And if the boats have to be made in India, then even more expensive than that.

But then the question remains. How seriously does India take the threat from the Chinese Navy (PLAN)?

sahay · Post by **sahay** » 31 Jan 2019 21:58

Rakesh wrote:The DAC approved this program in October 2014 as well. Now they approved the program again.

They approved it again as the 2014 approval had lapsed, which in turn was necessary as the older approval lapsed, all the way up to 1999. The 1999 30-year submarine plan had called for two parallel lines for submarine construction, but now it looks like it'll be two serial lines.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 31 Jan 2019 22:05

Defence ministry clears Rs 40,000 crore project to build 6 submarines
https://www.rediff.com/news/report/defe ... 190131.htm

In a major decision, the defence ministry on Thursday approved indigenous construction of six submarines for the Indian Navy at a cost of over Rs 40,000 crore, officials said. This was decided at a meeting of the defence acquisition council, the ministry's highest decision-making body on procurement, they said. The DAC, presided over by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, also approved acquisition of approximately 5,000 Milan anti-tank guided missiles for the Army. The project to construct the six submarines will be implemented under the strategic partnership model which provides for roping in private firm to build select military platforms in India in partnership with foreign defence manufacturers, the officials said. It will be the second project to be implemented under the strategic partnership model. The first project to get government's nod for implementation under the new model was acquisition of 111 utility helicopters for the Navy at a cost of over Rs 21,000 crore. "The DAC in a landmark decision on Thursday approved indigenous construction of six submarines for the Indian Navy at a cost of over Rs 40,000 crore," said a senior defence ministry official. "Construction of six submarines under Project 75 (I) will provide a major boost to the existing submarine design and manufacturing eco-system in India through transfer of design and equipment technology as well as a necessary skill sets," he said.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2019 22:10

Thank you for that info Sahay. Our procurement process is sad and depressing!

Rs 40,000 crore is how much in US dollars? I got US $5.6 billion in an online conversion. Is that correct?

See here ---> https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/co ... INR&To=USD

If correct, the estimated project cost works out to nearly $940 million per boat.

Someone please confirm my numbers.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 31 Jan 2019 22:15

Yep!! $5555555.5 dollars at $1=72 rupees. $925 million per boat

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2019 22:16

Thank you Bajwa Saar!

Wow! $900 - $950 million per boat.

Do I sense Soryu Class?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2019 22:19

Russia will never agree to putting BrahMos VLS plug on a Soryu Class though.

I prefer to see a BrahMos VLS plug on the upcoming six SSNs. Patrolling the Malacca Straits and the South China Sea.

Every now and then, ping the PLAN that we are in the area

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Jan 2019 22:34

sahay wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The DAC approved this program in October 2014 as well. Now they approved the program again.
They approved it again as the 2014 approval had lapsed, which in turn was necessary as the older approval lapsed, all the way up to 1999. The 1999 30-year submarine plan had called for two parallel lines for submarine construction, but now it looks like it'll be two serial lines.

Oh, the irony, I was watching Yes Prime Minister on another tab, when I read this.

Our process...The approval can stay active as long of GoI wants or get lapsed & re-approved when there is nothing new to approve in DAC meetings..

John · Post by **John** » 31 Jan 2019 23:12

Rakesh wrote:Russia will never agree to putting BrahMos VLS plug on a Soryu Class though.

I prefer to see a BrahMos VLS plug on the upcoming six SSNs. Patrolling the Malacca Straits and the South China Sea.

Every now and then, ping the PLAN that we are in the area

I will be reply to rest later on but I believe Brahmos vls for SSKs is out of picture it is simply too big ( you are taking about something 3x the size of tomahawk incl canister. Brahmos-m fired from standard tubes is way forward, I don't Russia Will stop that considering they don't have a viable current Gen SSK design.

As for $$ the Scorpene cost us about 800+ mill each. If you adj for infation that is about similar to P-75i cost.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 31 Jan 2019 23:45

John wrote: I will be reply to rest later on but I believe Brahmos vls for SSKs is out of picture it is simply too big ( you are taking about something 3x the size of tomahawk incl canister.

Isn't Soryu class has a displacement of over 3500T? That's pretty big as far as modern SSKs go.

John · Post by **John** » 31 Jan 2019 23:52

souravB wrote:
John wrote: I will be reply to rest later on but I believe Brahmos vls for SSKs is out of picture it is simply too big ( you are taking about something 3x the size of tomahawk incl canister.
Isn't Soryu class has a displacement of over 3500T? That's pretty big as far as modern SSKs go.

Even then a 8 Brahmos VLS will weight well over 30 tons, that will have sizable impact on its performance and require design changes to accommodate that. Even Virginia class carries only 12 TLAM which weight far less than 8 Brahmos. If we go with Soryu, at this point i would rather keep it simple and focus on getting it out the door ASAP.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 31 Jan 2019 23:56

nam wrote:DAC approval means dilly squat.

They will approve the same thing every couple of years.

But Napakis may panic and blow up their balance reserves

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 01 Feb 2019 00:14

John wrote: Even then a 8 Brahmos VLS will weight well over 30 tons, that will have sizable impact on its performance and require design changes to accommodate that. Even Virginia class carries only 12 TLAM which weight far less than 8 Brahmos. If we go with Soryu, at this point i would rather keep it simple and focus on getting it out the door ASAP.

Why would an SSK need LACMs. It's job is to hunt subs and ships in our littorals. The sub launched ASuW version of Bramhos is worked on to be smaller than ship launched variants.

John · Post by **John** » 01 Feb 2019 00:21

souravB wrote:
John wrote: Even then a 8 Brahmos VLS will weight well over 30 tons, that will have sizable impact on its performance and require design changes to accommodate that. Even Virginia class carries only 12 TLAM which weight far less than 8 Brahmos. If we go with Soryu, at this point i would rather keep it simple and focus on getting it out the door ASAP.
Why would an SSK need LACMs. It's job is to hunt subs and ships in our littorals. The sub launched ASuW version of Bramhos is worked on to be smaller than ship launched variants.

Where did i say SSK needs LACM? I was comparing the size of Brahmos with TLAM not their functionality. As for smaller Brahmos that is Brahmos-m (or Brahmos-NG?) i alluded to that earlier, it is designed to be fired from standard torpedo tubes without the need of VLS cells.But don't hold your breath i think we are at least decade away before its inducted.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2019 00:27

John, now you confused me!

Below is a model of a Amur 950. Picture is from wiki chacha. And as per wiki, the Amur 950 is 1300 tons submerged. And that includes a 10 VLS plug for the BrahMos. Although the picture below shows only a 8 VLS BrahMos plug. I thought the Amur Class was marketed to India with a VLS plug.

Now you are advising that the Brahmos VLS for SSKs is too big. So this Russian model below, is just a marketing gimmick? What gives?

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 01 Feb 2019 00:39

John wrote: Where did i say SSK needs LACM? I was comparing the size of Brahmos with TLAM not their functionality. As for smaller Brahmos that is Brahmos-m (or Brahmos-NG?) i alluded to that earlier, it is designed to be fired from standard torpedo tubes without the need of VLS cells.But don't hold your breath i think we are at least decade away before its inducted.

John ji, I misunderstood you when you referred to TLAM. I agree Bramhos weighs twice as THawk but my point was work has and is going on for miniaturization and weight reduction of Bramhos. Either DRDO will shave-off weight or NDB will tweak with the design to accommodate the extra weight(some tweaks will anyways be done). IN will integrate Bramhos with it's defensive line.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Feb 2019 00:46

^^Rakesh it is a marketing gimmick. The Russians haven't been able to make the Amur work even without this VLS plug. This is high fantasy onlee. A fantasy which our good old Philip saar likes to remind us of every now and then as if it is already in production.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Feb 2019 01:02

This quest for a Brahmos equipped SSK is one of the reasons that P-75I has gone nowhere. It is high time the Navy realizes this and looks at bolstering our plain vanilla hunter-killer SSK force instead. We have enough surface combatants equipped with Brahmos and are building more. AIP equipped Scorpenes with no other modifications would be the best since time is of the essence.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2019 01:03

Rakesh wrote:And again, as per wiki chacha, one Amur Class boat costs $450 million. Approximately US $100 million cheaper per boat.

oh no not that broken record Amur Lada proposal again!! like bikram betaal this thing loops back and starts all over every year!

the russian black sea and baltic sea fleets use kilos only, armed with kalibers. NO YAKHONT.

likewise we need to get nirbhay into service and stop worrying about midsection plugs. SSKs simply will burn battery if overweight no reserve power of a reactor. the big shtick brahmos/k15 plugs can be kept for nuclear boats.

we should just have built a basic indigenous "Kilo"ski with some licensed modules and produced 12. thats what our brothers did with the Yuan and Song class - gained experience and scale while our hunt for the golden fleece goes on.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2019 01:39

Singha Saar, my name is NOT Philip

I am not in favour of the Lada/Amur Class either. I want the IN to get the Soryu Class onlee.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2019 01:39

nachiket wrote:^^Rakesh it is a marketing gimmick. The Russians haven't been able to make the Amur work even without this VLS plug. This is high fantasy onlee. A fantasy which our good old Philip saar likes to remind us of every now and then as if it is already in production.

Then all bets are off. Thank you for clarifying that.

John · Post by **John** » 01 Feb 2019 02:00

nachiket wrote:^^Rakesh it is a marketing gimmick. The Russians haven't been able to make the Amur work even without this VLS plug. This is high fantasy onlee. A fantasy which our good old Philip saar likes to remind us of every now and then as if it is already in production.

Yeap Rakesh it is marketing gimmick as nachiket said it only exists as plastic models. Russians were desperate for foreign investment in Amur and were baiting us with Brahmos proposal when in fact no actual studies were done to see if Amur can even handle that. Their domestic version Lada is a mess and i am betting if we had invested in Amur we would been used guinea pigs to fix all the issues with Lada. Without no foreign investment (China refused to buy Amur as well), Lada IMO is pretty much a dead design and i don't believe Russia has $$ to build a next generation SSK class.

I am not fan of Scorpene but at this point i would vote for just simply buying 4-6 more to keep production line active rather wait another decade for P-75I to see fruition. I would not mind buying a few Kilos' as well.

nam · Post by **nam** » 01 Feb 2019 02:14

Why do we need to have brahmos on subs? Wouldn't a Klub like missile be good enough?

John · Post by **John** » 01 Feb 2019 02:31

nam wrote:Why do we need to have brahmos on subs? Wouldn't a Klub like missile be good enough?

Brahmos has far superior specs (range, speed, seeker) compared to Klub and offers land attack capability without having a specific land attack variant.

I am not sure Russia would allow or help with integration of Klub with Soryu (I suppose they can block integration of Brahmos-ng). Also in 2006 Klub missiles cost 30 crores each (60-80 crores if you adjust it for inflation), i am hoping Brahmos-ng will be lot cheaper.