Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jan 2019 07:32

Natgeo or discovery has iaf program today 9pm

Also tomorrow on discovery

The Republic Day special begins at 12 pm on January 26 with Revealed Siachen, a 60-minute programme on what it takes for Indian soldiers to stay atop the 77-kilometre long glacier at 5,400 meters altitude in the Karakoram range in the Himalayas. This will be followed by Breaking Point Indian Air Force Academy, which looks at the training imparted at the Air Force training institution, and Breaking Point High Altitude Warfare School, a show about how soldiers learn the art of mountain and winter warfare.

The programme ends with two 60-minute shows: Breaking Point: The Indian Submariners (“from the classroom to the officers Mess through Escape Training School to diving to the depths of the seas on board the INS Sindhukirti”) followed by Revealed National Defence Academy, about “what makes the NDA exceptional.”

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jan 2019 09:43

srin wrote:Regarding the Jaguar re-engining, there were originally two in the fray - Honeywell F125 and Rolls Royce Adour 821 (i'm not able to get the specs of this). But Rolls royce got kicked out because the IAF wanted a new engine and not an updated one. Once that happened, we lost all leverage and are now at their mercy.

Honeywell engine offered better Thrust than updated RR engine , the current RR engine facing derating issue in hot climate so IAF wanted higher thrust.

Honeywell engine had issue with CG so they have to place a ballast to compensate for it which the update RR did not face , something RR used it to say that the engine thrust gain was lost in compensating ballast.

It would be good for IAF to choose RR engine even if the thrust was slightly lower because of the long working relation with RR they had MRO faciilty while Honeywell was a greenfield project. Case of best is the enemy of good.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 25 Jan 2019 18:42

I am interested to know when a contract is signed between IAF and HAL who approves expected timelines of deliverables. I am certain that HAL's agreement on timelines is must for any contract to be final. Does IAF/MoD includes any clauses which are binding on HAL which can result in penalty or deduction in payments? What are pushing factors included in contract? Why on earth a vendor/service provider just gets away without any penalty for not keeping the timelines?
In the context ofcontract price-negotiations between HAL & IAF, I also need some education on this Govt-HAL-IAF finance cycle. In a way both IAF and HAL belongs to Govt. Funding to HAL is done by Govt/MoD and payments to HAL for IAF procurement is also done by Govt/MoD. Why deliveries for armed forces cannot be done on no-profit basis? Instead of calling it a contract between HAL and IAF, why can't it be just a work-order by MoD to HAL based on IAF's proposal? Assuming there is no export, concept of revenue generation by PSUs like HAL is absurd when money-cycle is only involves Govt-Funds. Of course much of the funds indirectly go to foreign vendors via HAL - but my concern is unnecessary negotiations. For exports, there be separate divisions of defence PSUs - which would also not interfere in deliveries for our own forces.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 25 Jan 2019 18:52

hemant_sai wrote:I am interested to know when a contract is signed between IAF and HAL who approves expected timelines of deliverables. I am certain that HAL's agreement on timelines is must for any contract to be final. Does IAF/MoD includes any clauses which are binding on HAL which can result in penalty or deduction in payments? What are pushing factors included in contract? Why on earth a vendor/service provider just gets away without any penalty for not keeping the timelines?
In the context ofcontract price-negotiations between HAL & IAF, I also need some education on this Govt-HAL-IAF finance cycle. In a way both IAF and HAL belongs to Govt. Funding to HAL is done by Govt/MoD and payments to HAL for IAF procurement is also done by Govt/MoD. Why deliveries for armed forces cannot be done on no-profit basis? Instead of calling it a contract between HAL and IAF, why can't it be just a work-order by MoD to HAL based on IAF's proposal? Assuming there is no export, concept of revenue generation by PSUs like HAL is absurd when money-cycle is only involves Govt-Funds. Of course much of the funds indirectly go to foreign vendors via HAL - but my concern is unnecessary negotiations. For exports, there be separate divisions of defence PSUs - which would also not interfere in deliveries for our own forces.

Study DPP if you seriously want to understand these kind of things. Its the best starting point.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jan 2019 21:31

JTull wrote:Slow HAL impacting India's air combat strength: IAF to Govt

However, in a review of the aeronautic company late last year, the air force has said that the series upgrade of 47 Mirage 2000 fighters that was signed in July 2011 has seen three production schedule delays already. It has informed the government that as per schedule, HAL should have delivered 21 upgraded jets but has actually been able to send only six.

Sources informed ET that since the review, one more jet has been delivered. HAL has blamed the delay on the non-availability of kits from France but the air force is not impressed by the argument, given that the contract was signed over seven years ago. Officials say this delay has seriously impacted operational preparedness as well as availability rate for the ‘very competent fighter’.

From July 2011 till Dec 2018, HAL has done a grand total of 7 upgrades to convert the Mirage 2000H/TH into the Mirage 2000I/TI. Add the two that Dassault did, brings it up to 9 aircraft. Around 40+ aircraft have still to be converted. Seven years to complete 7 aircraft, so HAL is taking on average one *WHOLE* year to upgrade one Mirage 2000

And thanks to Pappu's insistence, HAL wants to manufacture Rafales

JTull wrote:Slow HAL impacting India's air combat strength: IAF to Govt

Besides the 47 Mirage fighters, the air force has also red flagged a six year delay in the upgrade of the Jaguar fleet to DARIN III standard. The contract to upgrade 61 of these fighters was signed in December 2009, with the understanding that all of them would be ready by December 2017.

However, not a single aircraft has yet been delivered to the air force with HAL struggling to integrate a new radar on the jets. IAF has informed the government that it now expects the upgraded fighters to join service only by 2024.

Sources said the delay has again come at the cost of combat strength as it has pushed down availability of fighters. At present, an entire squadron strength of 20 fighters is not operational, awaiting the upgrade.

I want to put a face-palm smiley, but forum software does not have a face-palm smiley. Too bad, because that is what I feel like right now. WOW!!!! 20 aircraft - an entire squadron - just sitting on the tarmac!!!

JTull wrote:Slow HAL impacting India's air combat strength: IAF to Govt

HAL’s record on the delivery of Su 30 MKI fighters has also been questioned, with the government being informed that there is an overall delay of three years in the production schedule. While all aircraft were to be delivered by 2017, HAL still has at least 23 of the fighters to deliver to the air force.

On trainer aircraft, the air force has raised questions on the development schedule of the HTT 40 basic trainer. While the timeline for certification of the trainer was February 2015, the air force says the project is running behind time and it is not expected that HAL will manage even to certify the aircraft as fit for service before 2021.

So out of 272 ordered, 249 have been delivered and 23 left to assemble. Eight have crashed to date and thus 241 air frames are left in around 12 squadrons. This means around 1+ squadron is left to deliver.

JTull wrote:If HAL is having difficulty integrating radar on Jags, I wonder what impact this has on Mk1A?

HAL needs to complete the above three (M2K, Jaguar and Su-30MKI). If they can't deliver on them, the IAF will have grave doubts on HAL - not that they already do not have - to deliver the Mk1A.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jan 2019 21:35

Between murky political slugfest on Rafale and military hyperbole, Indian Air Force stares at shortfall of squadrons
https://www.firstpost.com/india/between ... 55181.html

Nearly two months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi signed the 'Rafale deal' with France's Dassault Aviation, political warfare had erupted in November 2016, with the Congress accusing BJP of non-transparency in the Rs 58,000 crore deal for 36 Rafale twin-engine fighter jets. Ever since the offensive has refused to die. And this is despite the fact the Indian Air Force's squadrons are depleting. With only 33 squadrons against a sanctioned strength of 42, this ageing force stands to lose even more squadrons as many are slated to be decommissioned in the coming years. In a report by The Indian Express, it has been estimated that the IAF will be left with an alarmingly low 26 squadrons of fighter aircraft by 2022. Apart from it, the indigenously developed Tejas is still waiting to be inducted into the force.

By 2022, the Express further reports, six squadrons of the Soviet-era MIG aircraft will be decommissioned and only one squadron of the French Rafale and another of the HAL-manufactured LCA Tejas will be inducted. Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman had in December 2017, told the Parliament that 10 squadrons equipped with MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircraft are scheduled to retire by 2024 on completion of their total technical life."

Nearly a year later, in December 2018, the defence ministry had issued a Request for Information (RFI) to procure 110 fighter jets, stating that it is currently doing with 31 squadrons of 18 jets each. During a press conference in the same month, former Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had said that the IAF needed at least 200 more fighter jets in the next 10 years. The problems for the Indian government and the Indian Air Force are plenty, the most notable being the Tejas conundrum. According to reports, the IAF is not too keen on inducting Tejas into its fleet which is manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

The single-engine fighter jet has an "endurance" limit of only an hour and its radius of action is up to 400 kilometres. While Tejas has a weapon-carrying capacity of three tonnes, other single-engine fighter jets like the Swedish Gripen-E and the American F-16 have two times its capacity and triple the endurance. The HAL has also missed its delivery target for the year's first quarter. According to a report by NDTV, the force currently depends on Su-30 MKI and MiG 29s, the British-made Jaguar and French-made Mirage 2000s. Meanwhile, Army chief Bipin Rawat had recently said that the country was battle-ready if war is forced upon by enemy forces. Between Rawat's hyperbole and the political slugfest over Rafale, it is the IAF which seems to be losing the most.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jan 2019 21:40

Based on the above two articles (posted by JTull and myself), in 2025 the IAF will look like this onlee...

MiG-29UPG: 3 Squadrons
Mirage 2000I/TI: 3 Squadrons (delayed and unlikely to be completed by 2025)
Jaguar Darin III: 5 Squadrons (delayed and unlikely to be completed by 2025)
Su-30MKI: 13.5 Squadrons (I am going to go with the 8 attrition replacement number, instead of the rumoured 40 order)
Rafale F3R: 2 Squadrons
Tejas Mk1: 2 Squadrons
Tejas Mk1A: 4 Squadrons (delayed and unlikely to be completed by 2025)

Around 32 squadrons by 2025 and that is the number on paper. Heaven only knows when HAL will have the Jaguar and Mirage 2000 upgrade completed and will be able to deliver four squadrons of the Mk1A.

Just focus on continuing production of the Mk1 and increase the number currently on order. At least two more squadrons of Tejas, at minimum. Let Mk1A development continue. As per previous HAL Chief, Mk1 can be converted to Mk1A.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jan 2019 22:11

Can some guru advise if the IAF's Base Repair Depots can also upgrade the Jaguars and Mirage 2000s?

I could be wrong on this, but I believe the MiG-29 upgrade was completed by the IAF's BRDs in partnership with HAL.

I know this much for a fact - a number of MiG types have been overhauled by the IAF's BRDs.

nam · Post by **nam** » 25 Jan 2019 23:48

Rakesh wrote: Just focus on continuing production of the Mk1 and increase the number currently on order. At least two more squadrons of Tejas, at minimum. Let Mk1A development continue. As per previous HAL Chief, Mk1 can be converted to Mk1A.

This is the logical solution. To continue IOC/FOC production until the next version arrives.

However IAF is stuck up with 1 sqd IOC & 1 sqd FOC. Neither wants more Su30. No funding for MK2 or AMCA.

We have a peculiar situation where IAF is short of fighters and HAL production lines are sitting idle!

IAF only wants Rafale or some other imported fighter. With such a attitude, we are not making sqd numbers any time soon.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Jan 2019 01:47

For folks who live in India and vote in the country's elections. Please read below and decide your vote. I am serious.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Jan 2019 01:53

^^^^ Abhijit Iyer-Mitra's tweet in response to above.

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1088301700593713159 ---> There are only 2 similarities between Bofors and Rafale.

1) INC was the protagonist in both, it perpetrated the former and concocted the latter.

2) In both cases it wrecked defence modernization for a decade thereafter causing irreparable harm.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Jan 2019 22:07

Please read Bharat Karnad's latedt piece in Securitywise ,
" IAF and HAL- Made for each other".

AM Masand's letter to the DM about how to cut waste, etc. in DPSUs, allegedly ignored. The piece is supposed to be in the Indian Defence Review.His fav. aircraft the MIG-29 which repeatedly showed up the M2K favoured by top brass, deliberately sidelined as he was not a " team player", by a former CoAS , now in hot water!
How the perpetual blame- game between the DRDO/ HAL actually works in favour of firang imports sidelining Tejas and Arjun, asked to meet the most stringent performance parameters not asked for for firang milware.

PS: Just for the record, some air shows ago just before the Raffh was selected as the MMRCA winner, I was chatting with a Brit. pilot touting the Typhoon aggressively and asking him Qs about the competition including the MIG-35 which had just put on a terrific aerobatic show at Farnborough.He said he'd flown almost " everything", including German MIG-29s and that nothing could compare with the MIG-35 ( TVC) in air combat, but that the Typhoon had of all the best sensor fusion , EW, etc.Many experts expected the Typhoon to win , it was the other shortlisted candidate along with the Raffy, but it was pipped at the post by the Raffy purely on the L-1 factor.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jan 2019 02:19

*POOF*

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jan 2019 10:31

Israeli canopy mishap rekindles memory of IAF pilot's heroic feat

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Jan 2019 20:16

X posted from the tejus thread

Is this why the IAF and HAL are at loggerheads regarding delayed payments??

A former chairman of HAL may like to comment on issues of IAF unhappiness as he seems to be very vocal on other issues, especially after retirement and this may be an issue that cropped up during his tenure??

After Repeated Non-Compliance By HAL Over Tejas Proposal, Indian Air Force To Approach Defence Acquisition Council

After Repeated Non-Compliance By HAL Over Tejas Proposal, Indian Air Force To Approach Defence Acquisition Council

by Swarajya Staff - Jan 29 2019,

Following Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL’s) repeated non-compliance in terms of fulfilling requirements in the Tejas aircraft deal, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has decided to take up the matter with the Defence Ministry, reports ANI.

In December 2017, the IAF had issued a single vendor tender to HAL, and the latter sent back its first commercial and technical response to it in March 2018.

As per the report, there were three major shortcomings in HAL’s response.

The HAL's offer on price and other aspects was valid only for 12 months, however, the procurement procedure required it to be minimum 18 months. The delivery time offered by the HAL was thus not deemed acceptable.

As per IAF officials quoted in the report, it was also found that the aircraft range and the endurance levels were not in compliance with the requirements. Endurance level pertains to the amount of time an aircraft can be in the air.

The IAF officials thus told HAL to rectify the issues in the proposal and send a revised response. But non-compliance was also noted in HAL’s subsequent responses which were received in the last 15 days.

“The delivery schedule now proposed by HAL remains a non-compliance, for which the IAF is approaching Defence Acquisition Council,” IAF said.

Under the new responses, HAL complied with the ferry range but failed to solve the delivery schedule matter following which IAF has now reportedly decided to approach the Defence Acquisition Council.

The program is already said to have been delayed by over a year despite getting the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) nod in 2016.

The Air Force had already placed an order for 40 LCA jets and had issued tenders to the HAL for another 83 Mark 1A LCAs to replace its old fleet of MiG-27 and MiG 21 aircraft but has had to postpone their retirement given the delays in the LCA and other fighter aircraft procurement projects.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Jan 2019 20:56

Indian Air Force To Acquire 15 HAROP Anti-Radiation Homing Drones From Israel To Cripple Enemy Surveillance

Indian Air Force To Acquire 15 HAROP Anti-Radiation Homing Drones From Israel To Cripple Enemy Surveillance

by Swarajya Staff - Jan 28 2019,

Indian Air Force (IAF), in a bid to enhance its unmanned warfare capability, is planning to buy 15 more Harop attack drones which can destroy high-value enemy military targets by crashing into them, ANI has reported.

As per the report, IAF currently possesses an inventory of these drones which are equipped with electro-optical sensors to hover over military targets such as surveillance bases and radar stations and can attack by self-destructing into them.

"A proposal to acquire these attack drones is expected to be discussed by the Defence Ministry at a high-level meeting in the coming week to strengthen the fleet of such drones in the Air Force," defence sources were quoted as saying.

If the said proposal is approved, the IAF would be exercising the option clause present in the previous deal signed a few years ago with Israel.

Israel is the prominent supplier of all types of drones to India including the surveillance aerial vehicles such as Searcher and Heron.

As per the report, India and Israel are also discussing Project Cheetah under which all the present drones with the Indian armed forces will be upgraded to attack levels and their surveillance capabilities would also be enhanced.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jan 2019 23:15

Paving the way for more imports.The traditional ritual IAF vs HAL dance only serves the interests of firang fighters.Why can't the MOD/ GOI simply fire incompetent heads of the DPSUs then? Why the complete lack of accountability.
Babudom cannot protect incompetence or failure to deliver.

However, in other reports a host of projects are in sh*t street because of lack of adequate funding.If this is a problem for the DPSUs- there was one report that a grand total of ONE M2K was upgraded last year, was mainly due to financial reasons.What truly gives? If we don't have moolah for current acquisitions and programmes, how on earth will the DAC approvd a firang buy for LCA delays?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 31 Jan 2019 02:58

x posted from the corruption in defence deal thread

some evil birds may just be coming home to roost??

ANI Verified account @ANI

Geeta Luthra and Prateek Yadav, lawyers of Rajiv Saxena (in picture, a co-accused in AgustaWestland case):

Rajiv Saxena was picked up by UAE state security from his residence this morning at 9:30 am (UAE time) and illegally extradited to India around 5:30pm (UAE time).

ANI Verified account @ANI 6h6 hours ago

Geeta Luthra&Prateek Yadav, lawyers of Rajiv Saxena: There were no extradition proceedings started in the UAE & he was not allowed access to his family or lawyers or essential daily medicine. He was onboarded onto a pvt jet from a private terminal at Dubai International Airport.

24 replies . 489 retweets 879 likes

@ANI

Lawyers of Rajiv Saxena (co-accused in AgustaWestland case): When his lawyers asked to speak to UAE state security & demanded to understand what happened, they were told he's on flight & can’t be stopped. When they queried this further they were told “Ask the Indian Government”.

7:08 am - 30 Jan 2019
898 Retweets 1,539 Likes Naveen Kr Pandey

and finally,

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2019 05:06

Pictures of a fully armed MiG-29UPG (KBU 3118) from Aero India 2017.

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/833973698923261953 ---> MiG-29UPG with its full complement of missiles - R-27R (SAH, outer), RVV-AE (AMRAAMski, middle), R-73 (CCM, inner).

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Jan 2019 10:29

Any idea why do we use R-27's , I thought with active radar missiles that too aginst Paki F-16's armed with C-20C they would not be much use, or do missiles like R 27T have some use? Or by any chance we have the R 27EA missiles. We seem to have bought R-27 Missiles from Ukraine around 2013 and only Russia and Ukraine had the R27EA version. Or may be it is cheaper to shoot down Mirages, JF 17, F-7 PG, Helicopters since these missiles are much cheaper.

Artem delivers first batch of R-27 missiles to Indian Air Force
https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... air-force/

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Jan 2019 11:14

Given the huge cost of missiles, every AAM with life in it is an asset. Studies of all contemporary conflicts show a massive use of missiles in the first stages, until they run out! The US ran out quickly of Tomohawks in GW1. The masala of AAMs shown on the 29UPG will all be required when the balloon goes up.

The IN too uses legacy late model Styx missiles on the Rajput DDGs along with BMos, somewhat similar in fashion to the load on the 29 shown. More than AAM shortages would perhaps be PGMs as hundreds if not thousands of potential targets would be on the hit list, why dumb bombs are being made " smart" with kits, far cheaper than expensive ASM s like BMos-A. The development of thr desi glide bombs and stand- off ARMs is a very positive development.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 31 Jan 2019 16:19

the older missiles I expect (if they are serviceable) will still be very potent against 2G or 3G targets - which to a large extent is the composition of the threats around us; the newer ones are required to defeat the countermeasures in the 4G or 4.5G targets that we will also face

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Jan 2019 17:41

Aditya_V wrote:Any idea why do we use R-27's , I thought with active radar missiles that too aginst Paki F-16's armed with C-20C they would not be much use, or do missiles like R 27T have some use? Or by any chance we have the R 27EA missiles. We seem to have bought R-27 Missiles from Ukraine around 2013 and only Russia and Ukraine had the R27EA version. Or may be it is cheaper to shoot down Mirages, JF 17, F-7 PG, Helicopters since these missiles are much cheaper.

Artem delivers first batch of R-27 missiles to Indian Air Force
https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... air-force/

Because R-77 never worked. Hence Su-30 getting Astra and IAF inducting it super fast.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2019 19:06

to tide over r77 reliability issues a few years ago, I think we imported more r27 either from ukraine or russian stock.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Feb 2019 01:28

So in 2019, our AF is completely bereft of Active radar homing missiles, aside from the (very) few upgraded M2k's which might have MICAs. We have come a long way (down) from the Kargil days when the PAF was afraid of engaging the IAF since they had no BVR capability and we did. Now they have AMRAAMs and we have R-27s.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2019 04:47

Round and Round We Go in Circles!!!

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Feb 2019 12:41

nachiket wrote:So in 2019, our AF is completely bereft of Active radar homing missiles, aside from the (very) few upgraded M2k's which might have MICAs. We have come a long way (down) from the Kargil days when the PAF was afraid of engaging the IAF since they had no BVR capability and we did. Now they have AMRAAMs and we have R-27s.

No, I don't think it's that dire. the initial r77 batches were problematic enough that the iaf started to look elsewhere and invested in the r27 as a stop gap. Otherwise, why do we still see them field it on the fulcrum? Also how come we don't hear any complaints from the Navy?

Another question to ponder is... Do the r27s provide any tactical advantages? Since some of these do outrange the r77s for example. Also could r27 IRs fired from accompanying fighters be illuminated and given mcus by the fighter that is illuminating targets?

Jmho of course.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Feb 2019 15:07

Manu Pubby Verified account @manupubby
Jan 24
Manu Pubby Retweeted Manu Pubby
Government informed that as per schedule, HAL should have delivered 21 upgraded Mirage 2000 jets to the air force but has actually been able to send only six.

(plus one since the review)

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Feb 2019 00:31

‘Can Make Concessions To HAL But Will Enemy Make Any Concession For Us?’ Indian Air Force Chief B S Dhanoa Slams HAL

‘Can Make Concessions To HAL But Will Enemy Make Any Concession For Us?’ Indian Air Force Chief B S Dhanoa Slams HAL

by Swarajya Staff - Feb 01 2019,

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa on Thursday (31 January 2019) slammed the repeated delays and problems in the domestic manufacture of military aircraft by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), while reiterating the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) commitment to increasing indigenisation, reports The Hindu.

“IAF has not shifted any goal posts as alleged. The development has taken such an incredibly long time that armament and technology has gone obsolete… I as the service chief can make concessions to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Will the enemy make concessions to me when I go and meet the enemy?” stated Dhanoa at the 10th Jumbo Majumdar international lecture.

Dhanoa’s remarks come in the wake of recent reports claiming that the IAF had contributed to production delays by changing the parameters for new units of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

The air force is currently awaiting delivery of 40 LCA Mk-I fighters and has issued a Request For Proposal (RFP) for 83 LCA Mk-IA variants. It wants to eventually induct 12 squadrons of LCA Mk-II.

The air chief also spoke of the human sacrifice from the side of the IAF in testing indigenous aircraft, stating, “We have lost 17 pilots and engineers in air accidents during testing and evaluation of the indigenous Marut, Kiran, Ajeet, Saras and early warning prototype aircraft.”

He also noted that there needs to be a mix of high, medium and low technology to develop air power properly. He explained that fighters like the Rafale combined with the S-400 defence system would be able to shape air battles, enabling other aircraft to carry on their functions.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Feb 2019 00:52

Cain Marko wrote:
nachiket wrote:So in 2019, our AF is completely bereft of Active radar homing missiles, aside from the (very) few upgraded M2k's which might have MICAs. We have come a long way (down) from the Kargil days when the PAF was afraid of engaging the IAF since they had no BVR capability and we did. Now they have AMRAAMs and we have R-27s.
No, I don't think it's that dire. the initial r77 batches were problematic enough that the iaf started to look elsewhere and invested in the r27 as a stop gap. Otherwise, why do we still see them field it on the fulcrum? Also how come we don't hear any complaints from the Navy?

Another question to ponder is... Do the r27s provide any tactical advantages? Since some of these do outrange the r77s for example. Also could r27 IRs fired from accompanying fighters be illuminated and given mcus by the fighter that is illuminating targets?

Jmho of course.

I hope at least some of them work. But I haven't seen a new R-77 order from the IAF in recent times. Was there an order included in the Mig-29 upgrade deal? Buying SARH missiles in this day and age just looks desperate.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Feb 2019 03:53

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: No, I don't think it's that dire. the initial r77 batches were problematic enough that the iaf started to look elsewhere and invested in the r27 as a stop gap. Otherwise, why do we still see them field it on the fulcrum? Also how come we don't hear any complaints from the Navy?

Another question to ponder is... Do the r27s provide any tactical advantages? Since some of these do outrange the r77s for example. Also could r27 IRs fired from accompanying fighters be illuminated and given mcus by the fighter that is illuminating targets?

Jmho of course.
I hope at least some of them work. But I haven't seen a new R-77 order from the IAF in recent times. Was there an order included in the Mig-29 upgrade deal? Buying SARH missiles in this day and age just looks desperate.

No need for new orders because r77 replacement, astra is on its way. That's my guess.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Feb 2019 14:53

Cain Marko wrote: Another question to ponder is... Do the r27s provide any tactical advantages? Since some of these do outrange the r77s for example. Also could r27 IRs fired from accompanying fighters be illuminated and given mcus by the fighter that is illuminating targets?

Jmho of course.

R-27 variant has longer range and higher energy which also translates to higher speed , Plus they have SARH/IR guidance which is good to dodge EW.

The long range is good for targets that is trying to run away because they would lit up the AB and run away from chasing aircraft as fast as they can , The R-27 higher speed and range will help catch up to it , All targets that the fighter meets up in the Air is not a fighter trying to engage you , There are Cruise Missile , UAV , Transport Aircraft , Tanker, AEW , Patrol Aircraft etc that can be a good target for R-27.

Remember the last time the IAF shot down an enemy aircraft was an Atlantic that strayed deep inside India was was shot by a R-60 AAM from a Mig-21 ......That was a big loss to the enemy from asset and personal pov but the job was done by the venerable Mig-21 with the 70's R-60

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Feb 2019 00:41

Scrambling for Numbers
http://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=2 ... or-Numbers

By By Air Marshal B.K. Pandey (Retd)

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 03 Feb 2019 18:52

***Moved***

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 05 Feb 2019 20:10

I was watching a video of Modi's recent visit to Thakurnagar, WB and departure using IAF Mi-17. There were three Mi-17s on the ground - The one which Modi was boarding - Reg. Z-3091 seemed like an older variant, There is one which looked like Mi-17 V has huge barrels attached on the outside- are those floating devices for a water ditching - if so then should not it be more prudent to use it for Modi? Also why does all the Mi-17 has black paint on the tail - is it to deflect heat exhaustion from engine?

Here is the link to the video

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2019 20:40

extra fuel tanks.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Feb 2019 03:05

Indian Air Force thinking about the modernization of the MiG-29 with Russian BARK-88
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.blog ... ig-29.html

India is discussing a program for the deep modernization of the MiG-29 fighters in service with the country's air force. One of the areas of modernization is to turn the MiG-29 into a universal combat vehicle, which could also be used for the effective destruction of various ground targets. In the Indian press, in connection with these plans of the country's Air Force command, the possibility of increasing the potential of the MiG-29 through the use of the digital automatic regulation and control unit BARK-88 is mentioned. By the way, it was in India (at the Aero India-2017 exhibition) that this unit was first introduced by the Russian United Engine Corporation.

This system can significantly improve the capabilities of the engine of the fighter. In particular, we are talking about increasing the resource of hot thrust of an aircraft power plant. Also, a digital BARK is capable of increasing the gas dynamic stability of engine operation in variable modes, increasing the accuracy of maintaining the operating parameters of a fighter power plant. But that's not all. In India, we paid attention to the fact that BARK-88 allows reducing both volumes and a lot of auxiliary equipment - engine electronics (RD-33) and various electric cables.

For reference: the BARK-88 unit was developed by Klimov specialists. In fact, it replaces analog blocks, which by now can be considered largely obsolete. All the required work on the production of the BARK for the engines of MiG-29 fighters was completed in 2015. After that, the units were installed on airplanes that are operated by the Strizhi aerobatic team. India is assessing the possibility of purchasing BARK-88 from Russia for the modernization of 64 aircraft of its Air Force. Previously reported upgrading to the version of the MiG-29UPG 65 combat vehicles.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Feb 2019 03:06

A blurb about Bark 88 from the engine manufacturer itself ---> http://www.klimov.ru/en/service/trd/MIG ... 20upgrade/

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 06 Feb 2019 07:04

I think it is time again to give further thoughts on acquiring Qatari M2Ks along with Malaysian MiG-29s to slightly augment our fleet. SEF is at least few years away from signing (if it happens at all) & probably no further orders on Rafale in the foreseeable future.

Get both M2Ks & -29s upgraded to current IAF standards and we might get around 30 4+ gen planes in total between the two of them.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Feb 2019 07:24

I have given up hoping for acquisition of the Qatari M2k's. The only people still interested in them seem to be BRF jingoes.