Small Arms Thread
Re: Small Arms Thread
Sourav --
94 + 350 means for me that it is not actually a carbine but an assault rifle..
Carbines in this day and age are a useless designtion especially for non-special forces.
94 + 350 means for me that it is not actually a carbine but an assault rifle..
Carbines in this day and age are a useless designtion especially for non-special forces.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Yep.. anything upwards of 14" barrel would be an assault rifle.
Carbines fulfill a very niche role which IMO reg inf is not the candidate for.
Carbines fulfill a very niche role which IMO reg inf is not the candidate for.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Sourav ji, Khan Chacha buys M4 carbines for $800. Current contracts are with Fn and Remington IIRC.
Re: Small Arms Thread
FN it is Thakurji.Thakur_B wrote:Sourav ji, Khan Chacha buys M4 carbines for $800. Current contracts are with Fn and Remington IIRC.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Thakur sahab, no.. the contract is for arming a battalion of marines for a trial run with H&K416 as Infantry Assault Rifle or IAR as colloquially known.Thakur_B wrote:Sourav ji, Khan Chacha buys M4 carbines for $800. Current contracts are with Fn and Remington IIRC.
There is a strong opinion in USMC for 416 as IAR instead of M4 and hence the contract as trial run.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Sourav enen the current M4 is manu by FN. Colt lost the contract.souravB wrote:Thakur sahab, no.. the contract is for arming a battalion of marines for a trial run with H&K416 as Infantry Assault Rifle or IAR as colloquially known.Thakur_B wrote:Sourav ji, Khan Chacha buys M4 carbines for $800. Current contracts are with Fn and Remington IIRC.
There is a strong opinion in USMC for 416 as IAR instead of M4 and hence the contract as trial run.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Sir, yes FN is the primary contractor of M4A1 now. Some smaller boutique OEMs like Knights Armory also manufactures from time to time when the volume needs to be ramped up.ks_sachin wrote: Sourav enen the current M4 is manu by FN. Colt lost the contract.
My point was USMC is moving out from M4A1 and moving towards 416s which costs around $1.5K/piece when manufactured in US. US Army is also testing a new platform based on 6.8 SPCII cartridge. All in all, DI system will give way to SS piston and subsequently rifles would be costlier. One only get its money's worth.
Re: Small Arms Thread
DI is not bad. SS is not bad.souravB wrote:Sir, yes FN is the primary contractor of M4A1 now. Some smaller boutique OEMs like Knights Armory also manufactures from time to time when the volume needs to be ramped up.ks_sachin wrote: Sourav enen the current M4 is manu by FN. Colt lost the contract.
My point was USMC is moving out from M4A1 and moving towards 416s which costs around $1.5K/piece when manufactured in US. US Army is also testing a new platform based on 6.8 SPCII cartridge. All in all, DI system will give way to SS piston and subsequently rifles would be costlier. One only get its money's worth.
It seems DI gets an unnecessary bad wrap
Re: Small Arms Thread
Reports mention Sig712 G2.
Re: Small Arms Thread
SiG USA 716 under emergency procurement.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Thakur_B wrote:Deep upgrade kits for AKM from Bangalore based company Stumpp, Scheule and Somappa for Para SF. Handguard, dust cover, flash hider and buttstock replaced. Fixed sights replaced with pop up sights as well.
Stumpp, Scheule and Somappa have also upgraded Dragunov SVD.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Sig 716 Gen2 Patrol. We are buying a version of this rifle.
Re: Small Arms Thread
emergency procurement = bad planningThakur_B wrote:
SiG USA 716 under emergency procurement.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Reminded of the old saying
Lack of planning on your side is not an emergency on my side
But here I feel, the time to taken to push a planned change they are using emergency to bypass ineffective process.
Lack of planning on your side is not an emergency on my side
But here I feel, the time to taken to push a planned change they are using emergency to bypass ineffective process.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Yes I was thinking along the same line. Its a procurement worth having that could have taken eons and unnecessary prying eyes to dislodge. Its a good way to "not plan" and in emergency choose the one you always wanted.Khalsa wrote:Reminded of the old saying
Lack of planning on your side is not an emergency on my side
But here I feel, the time to taken to push a planned change they are using emergency to bypass ineffective process.
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Re: Small Arms Thread
Do we get optics along with Rifle ? included in deal.souravB wrote:Sig 716 Gen2 Patrol. We are buying a version of this rifle.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Noashishvikas wrote:Do we get optics along with Rifle ? included in deal.souravB wrote:Sig 716 Gen2 Patrol. We are buying a version of this rifle.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Was Sig 7.62 the one we always wanted?brvarsh wrote:Yes I was thinking along the same line. Its a procurement worth having that could have taken eons and unnecessary prying eyes to dislodge. Its a good way to "not plan" and in emergency choose the one you always wanted.Khalsa wrote:Reminded of the old saying
Lack of planning on your side is not an emergency on my side
But here I feel, the time to taken to push a planned change they are using emergency to bypass ineffective process.
I do tend to agree with emergency ....process...
Re: Small Arms Thread
Why, don't understand this purchase. Were we not building the SLR in India. Why could it not be bought with minor updates?Thakur_B wrote:SiG USA 716 under emergency procurement.
Re: Small Arms Thread
The same youtube channel above has done a video on caracal and is all praises about it. What do the jingos think?
Re: Small Arms Thread
It doesn't matter what members think about this fire arm.
I want H&K G11 rifle for general infantry.F N P 90 for special forces and HK pdw for vehicle crews. For LMG application I want one of the new case telescopic machine gun.
I feel like this is a nice fit for the Indian army. In terms of having cutting edge technology firearms. Never mind the logistical nightmare this will bring
For other mundane applications the AK and INSAS and SLR will do the job.
I want H&K G11 rifle for general infantry.F N P 90 for special forces and HK pdw for vehicle crews. For LMG application I want one of the new case telescopic machine gun.
I feel like this is a nice fit for the Indian army. In terms of having cutting edge technology firearms. Never mind the logistical nightmare this will bring
For other mundane applications the AK and INSAS and SLR will do the job.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Nah..we should get the felchette gun. That will be one ammo the OFB should be able to do well.
Re: Small Arms Thread
ks_sachin wrote:Nah..we should get the felchette gun. That will be one ammo the OFB should be able to do well.
I had forgotten about that fire arm. The worst part is that I saw a program on such weapon only last evening
https://youtu.be/21qZpSJp5W0
Re: Small Arms Thread
Pratyush since you have touched upon my favourite of all time in the FNFAL do revisit SouravB and my posts in this thread.
Also do visit DSA Arms and see what is possible with the FN.
I believe our stock of cold storage FNs could have been shortened and furniture modernised and used as we perhaps should be using the Sig - as a DMR or battle rifle.
Also do visit DSA Arms and see what is possible with the FN.
I believe our stock of cold storage FNs could have been shortened and furniture modernised and used as we perhaps should be using the Sig - as a DMR or battle rifle.
Re: Small Arms Thread
is this SIG and Caracal two vendors of the same 7.62 or there are significant diffs?
all of it seems to belong to AR15 lineage?
all of it seems to belong to AR15 lineage?
Re: Small Arms Thread
Sig is 7.62 Nato US manufacturer
Caracal is 5.56 NATOUAE manufacturer
They share AR15 lineage.
Caracal was designed by the two who designed the HK416 and Sig 716.
Caracal is 5.56 NATOUAE manufacturer
They share AR15 lineage.
Caracal was designed by the two who designed the HK416 and Sig 716.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Got a very interesting link. It describes the GSQR trials for PAK Army assault rifles. Description is from a American who took part in this process and i suspect he is from SIG.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/ge ... ult-rifle/
Summary --
None of the American weapons passed the HOT and COLD trials
American weapons flunked in Sand and Mud Test
FN SCAR was selected but zero was ordered; Considering it is expensive.
Towards Author makes it a point to comment that althrough AR 10 platforms scores high on accuracy but it ranks low on reliability.
He also begins wondering as to what are the parameters that US army puts out when they tests these platforms
I wonder how did SIG platforms pass our own tests if it couldnt meet some of these criteria !!
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/ge ... ult-rifle/
Summary --
None of the American weapons passed the HOT and COLD trials
American weapons flunked in Sand and Mud Test
FN SCAR was selected but zero was ordered; Considering it is expensive.
Towards Author makes it a point to comment that althrough AR 10 platforms scores high on accuracy but it ranks low on reliability.
He also begins wondering as to what are the parameters that US army puts out when they tests these platforms
I wonder how did SIG platforms pass our own tests if it couldnt meet some of these criteria !!
Re: Small Arms Thread
All that was mentioned in the media of trials in this "emergency" purchase was a team going to various factories and trying weapons out. I am not sure if these guns underwent the rigorous trials involved in the previous rfp where just about every gun is said to have failed. The SIG 716 appears to be more of a law enforcement weapon than a proper battle riffle. I fear our troops may be asking for the trusty old insas once these fancy phoren guns see the real battle conditions. I sincerely hope I am wrong.naird wrote:Got a very interesting link. It describes the GSQR trials for PAK Army assault rifles. Description is from a American who took part in this process and i suspect he is from SIG.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/ge ... ult-rifle/
Summary --
None of the American weapons passed the HOT and COLD trials
American weapons flunked in Sand and Mud Test
FN SCAR was selected but zero was ordered; Considering it is expensive.
Towards Author makes it a point to comment that althrough AR 10 platforms scores high on accuracy but it ranks low on reliability.
He also begins wondering as to what are the parameters that US army puts out when they tests these platforms
I wonder how did SIG platforms pass our own tests if it couldnt meet some of these criteria !!
Re: Small Arms Thread
i have realized in our chaotic context, with no funding clarity, shifting political regimes, sneaky agents all over....there will never be a platinum bullet "fleet wide" deal on shoes or undies, let alone MRCA or rifles. so its a good move to give the theater commanders financial signoff to buy/make/adapt whatever they need and get functional stuff into the hands of the infantry. so long as they fire 5.56 and 7.62 it should mostly be ok to have a zoo of weapons than 1 standard rifle for the whole fauj.
i vote the zonal commanders spending limits be even more increased. we need to adopt the decentralized model of the american revolutionary war where each general/patron/leader equipped his own formations with whatever tech and means they had, down to uniforms and battle flags.
i vote the zonal commanders spending limits be even more increased. we need to adopt the decentralized model of the american revolutionary war where each general/patron/leader equipped his own formations with whatever tech and means they had, down to uniforms and battle flags.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Anyone know what happened to the JVPC trials by CRPF ?
Re: Small Arms Thread
mango question, why are we pursuing screwdrivergiri of ak103 when napak has already brought it? No need for technical superiority?Got a very interesting link. It describes the GSQR trials for PAK Army assault rifles. Description is from a American who took part in this process and i suspect he is from SIG.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/ge ... ult-rifle/
...
Re: Small Arms Thread
Pray tell what do you mean by technical superiority in small arms?
Re: Small Arms Thread
Small arms ? What technical superiority ? Screwdrivergiri is a different question altogethergaurav.p wrote: mango question, why are we pursuing screwdrivergiri of ak103 when napak has already brought it? No need for technical superiority?
Re: Small Arms Thread
I know man, that's why I am even more puzzled by this purchase.ks_sachin wrote:Pratyush since you have touched upon my favourite of all time in the FNFAL do revisit SouravB and my posts in this thread.
Also do visit DSA Arms and see what is possible with the FN.
I believe our stock of cold storage FNs could have been shortened and furniture modernised and used as we perhaps should be using the Sig - as a DMR or battle rifle.
Re: Small Arms Thread
India buying the 103 will lead to a situation of two enemies fighting with the same weapon and the exporter mints all the money. Net we are not gaining anything out it. If India is importing some gun, then get a more competent version than the enemy (to keep the chain of imports continuing and keep the enemy in a state of unease). India being economically superior, to buy the same ak103 is a point of equivalence. The key is to de-hyphenate.naird,ks_sachin wrote:
Small arms ? What technical superiority ? Screwdrivergiri is a different question altogether
I guess the gun trials are done to find the technically superior gun, right?
Just like the INSAS are being partially replaced by more superior/competent Sigs.
Re: Small Arms Thread
I am sorry but I don't understand this post. What is equivalence and de-hyphenate when you want the best small arm for the men and women.gaurav.p wrote:India buying the 103 will lead to a situation of two enemies fighting with the same weapon and the exporter mints all the money. Net we are not gaining anything out it. If India is importing some gun, then get a more competent version than the enemy (to keep the chain of imports continuing and keep the enemy in a state of unease). India being economically superior, to buy the same ak103 is a point of equivalence. The key is to de-hyphenate.naird,ks_sachin wrote:
Small arms ? What technical superiority ? Screwdrivergiri is a different question altogether
I guess the gun trials are done to find the technically superior gun, right?
Just like the INSAS are being partially replaced by more superior/competent Sigs.
There is nothing technologically superior to an AK if reliability and ease of maintenance is required.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Saar, forgive this mango for poor writing skills.ks_sachin wrote: I am sorry but I don't understand this post. What is equivalence and de-hyphenate when you want the best small arm for the men and women.
There is nothing technologically superior to an AK if reliability and ease of maintenance is required.
Equivalence = both enemies same weapons. Nothing differentiates.
hypenate = in foreign policy, India often finds itself linked to Pak just like Israel is linked to Palestine. With India buying ak103 it would be said 'India buys same weapon as pak'.
Yes AK is best bang for the buck. Going for the same weapon as the adversary sounds weird but as you said there is nothing better to get.
Re: Small Arms Thread
They were taking deliveries starting September 2017.Prasad wrote:Anyone know what happened to the JVPC trials by CRPF ?
https://twitter.com/crpfindia/status/905796340046643200
Re: Small Arms Thread
No AR-15 based rifle would pass IA's testing fairly. I do not think even AKs would pass every criteria. It doesn't mean the platforms are bad.Bharadwaj wrote: All that was mentioned in the media of trials in this "emergency" purchase was a team going to various factories and trying weapons out. I am not sure if these guns underwent the rigorous trials involved in the previous rfp where just about every gun is said to have failed. The SIG 716 appears to be more of a law enforcement weapon than a proper battle riffle. I fear our troops may be asking for the trusty old insas once these fancy phoren guns see the real battle conditions. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
Also the rifles that we see on videos are civilian versions. MilSpec is a catchphrase that is used to entice buyers. Also these rifles use components that are tuned for accuracy and ease of use rather than ruggedness. Actual Military rifles have different components ranging from material to finishing.
I would like to see a FAL with newer light weight all alloy construction, NOx treated 17" barrel, all the usual modern furnitures and chambered in 6.8SPCIIPratyush wrote:I know man, that's why I am even more puzzled by this purchase.ks_sachin wrote:
I believe our stock of cold storage FNs could have been shortened and furniture modernised and used as we perhaps should be using the Sig - as a DMR or battle rifle.