Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2019 23:37

thats what we did with astra, using a agat seeker and some ideas initially from matra530 chassis before redesigning into the current leaner chassis losing the midbody fins.

akash took off from SA6.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 03 Feb 2019 05:53

Singha wrote:thats what we did with astra, using a agat seeker and some ideas initially from matra530 chassis before redesigning into the current leaner chassis losing the midbody fins.

akash took off from SA6.

That's more of an INSAS type approach, where we pick and choose best from all systems we already have. A lot different then cloning/buying an existing system to leapfrog existing capabilities, although easier said then done.

I am not even sure why we suddenly started a love affair for ASRAAM, what's wrong with R-73, or Python etc etc, or even asking for an AAM development while R-73 stockpiles are still air-worthy.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Feb 2019 09:40

Let me guess as an arm chair critic here.
1) R73 seeker is pretty old and countermeasures have been developed, software and hardware , electronics needs a serious upgrade.
2) Python 5 has too many control surfaces. Israelis probably mix and match with Aim9x and the IAF probably had a look and want to go with a missile which uses the same seeker as the Aim9x but with a body with lesser control surfaces. Asraam is probably less manvourable but longer range than python 5.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 03 Feb 2019 11:40

I think there were issues in integrating P5 with LCA...excess vibration as the speeds approached M1. I guess the manufacturer did not extend sufficient help in resolving this and IAF thought better to go with a missile with equal capabilities but with less complexity.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2019 12:15

ASRAAM has lower weight , FPA seeker , high agility specially off bore sight due to use to tvc and as long as energy remains it is very agile , LOAL/LOBL capability.

The lower weight is a big advantage if you have to carry on over head wing pylon of Jags and outer pylon of Tejas , Python had integration issue with Tejas flutter issue which could not be solved.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 03 Feb 2019 12:36

But this ASRAAM deal may be intended for fleet wide replacement, probably a standard SRAAM for next 3 decades. That’s a huge deal.

Basically it “may” replace MICA IR, R-73, and R-60. MICA is a recent purchase, not sure if R-60 is still in use.

After Astra why take a step back and screw ourself on such a large scale?

dmun · Post by **dmun** » 03 Feb 2019 13:08

Sid wrote:But this ASRAAM deal may be intended for fleet wide replacement, probably a standard SRAAM for next 3 decades. That’s a huge deal.

Basically it “may” replace MICA IR, R-73, and R-60. MICA is a recent purchase, not sure if R-60 is still in use.

After Astra why take a step back and screw ourself on such a large scale?

Astra is a BVRAAM. Asraam is a SRAAM. We don't have any SRAAM under development. It should not impact any DRDO programs.

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Feb 2019 17:49

I expect we will go for both Aim-132 and Python.

Like we will have every BVR under the sun..

"Fleet wide" news would be to play off Rafael and MDBA.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 03 Feb 2019 23:02

All this speculation about asraam induction is just speculation and nothing else. Both Mig 29 and su 30 are essentially twinned with R-73 including off boresight and hmcs capabilities. I doubt any other missile can even leverage both mig 29 and su-30 capabilities including thrust vectoring and cobra maneuver as well as R-73. If anyways you have to replace R-73, you do it by an advanced version of R 73.

Only a pencil pusher can suggest something like this. Does asraam even has any combat experience to speak off?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Feb 2019 04:07

Darshhan, you are mistaken about several points. Please read this to understand the ASRAAM better.

http://www.ausairpower.net/API-ASRAAM-Analysis.html

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Feb 2019 07:41

There is no questioning the quality of ASRAAM. But, this is a windfall for MBDA. Whole of IAF fleet would mean a few thousand of these missiles.We are speaking of billions of dollars worth of missiles.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 04 Feb 2019 10:06

I guess the shifting of MBDA ASRAAM manufacturing in India will be part of Rafale offsets. So the windfall is just a part of a big picture...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Feb 2019 10:15

They wont replace the entire fleet with ASRAAM but keep a mix of ASRAAM , Python 4/5 , R-73 ,MICA ...They are just broadening the WVR/BVR weapon that an aircraft can carry which is helpful if you want to deploy your aircraft at multiple bases.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Feb 2019 10:22

do we have any python4/5? so far I have not heard of anything but the derby (earlier for sea harriers and now for the upg Jags with el2052).

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Feb 2019 12:33

Python V's have definitely been Test fired a few times as part of the Spyder air defence system, Python IV was intergrated with the Sea Harrier fleet, there has been official mention by ADA about trying to integrate Python V at Aero India but unofficial news from livefest that Python V failed flutter tests.

Here is an ADA Document from 2016 which talks about Python 5 as CCM

https://www.ada.gov.in/images/Annual%20 ... 015-16.pdf

Tejas Fighter FOC System development for integrating additional weapons package for FOC and further envelope expansion (High AOA and Nz) has been initiated. Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile and Python-5 Close Combat Missile (CCM) were integrated on Tejas aircraft. Carriage trials were conducted with the missile. One Derby BVR missile was fired in the unguided mode, successfully over the sea at an altitude of 30000 ft & 0.8 mach to study separation and plume characteristics. Python-5 CCM was not fired as vibrations were experienced at 0.9 mach. Analysis of test results is in progress. Integration of Air to Air Fuel Refuelling system on Tejas aircraft is in progress. Advanced autopilot modes have been designed and are planned to be flighttested. Novel auto recovery modes like Automatic Low Speed Recovery and Disorientation Recovery Mode will also be flight tested towards attaining Carefree Maneuvering capability.

prashantsharma · Post by **prashantsharma** » 04 Feb 2019 15:10

Equally importantin the Livefist article, I feel, is the mention that India is exploring the acquisition of the Brimstone. While it talks about it only for the Hawk, it is something I would love to see being employed with the Tejas and Jags, which would be tasked with most of the CAS and BAI missions, and for which the missile is particularly suited.
Though we have the homegrown SANT in the pipeline, which does pretty much the same job, its induction could be many years away.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Feb 2019 05:43

Karan M wrote:Darshhan, you are mistaken about several points. Please read this to understand the ASRAAM better.

http://www.ausairpower.net/API-ASRAAM-Analysis.html

How difficult is it going to be to integrate the ASRAAM with the multiple different Helmet mounted sights in use in the IAF? DASH on Tejas, the Russian one (Shchel-3UM?) in the Mig-29 and Su-30., Thales Topsight in M2k, etc. I guess, since we are probably getting the MICA-IR with the M2k upgrade, we won't be integrating the ASRAAM in the M2k fleet.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2019 07:03

Austin Good points on differences in control between the two missiles.
I think if several thousand short range are procured local production will happen.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Feb 2019 10:31

Some time it appears to me that the users of the Indian armed forces are a people just like us on the BRF. Just as we all have our biases regarding different weapons for specific circumstances. So do the users. The only difference is that the users have a say in actually getting the MOD to pay for the purchase. While we at the BRF don't have the pull to compell the MOD.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Feb 2019 10:45

Pratyush wrote:Some time it appears to me that the users of the Indian armed forces are a people just like us on the BRF. Just as we all have our biases regarding different weapons for specific circumstances. So do the users. The only difference is that the users have a say in actually getting the MOD to pay for the purchase. While we at the BRF don't have the pull to compell the MOD.

Plus they have trained and used these missiles in real life and maintained them.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 05 Feb 2019 11:00

It is going to be tough for PLAAF to figure out which missile is coming up their pipes and whether to fling out chaff or flare or pilot

Entire world of missiles is there with IAF. As long as they can maintain fighting stocks, more Power to them. Will be a nightmare to provision counter measures

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 05 Feb 2019 12:53

hnair wrote:It is going to be tough for PLAAF to figure out which missile is coming up their pipes and whether to fling out chaff or flare or pilot
s

kurup · Post by **kurup** » 07 Feb 2019 15:40

2000 km range missile test scheduled from ITR on Feb 12/14 ,

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1093448706345512961

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Feb 2019 13:35

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 6100583424

DRDO testfires #Helina successfully. Another test likely today.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 08 Feb 2019 16:11

hnair wrote:It is going to be tough for PLAAF to figure out which missile is coming up their pipes and whether to fling out chaff or flare or pilot

Entire world of missiles is there with IAF. As long as they can maintain fighting stocks, more Power to them. Will be a nightmare to provision counter measures

numbers sir numbers..when it comes to AF, they can throw numbers like us. That's why astra needs to be opertionalized fast and in huge numbers.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 08 Feb 2019 18:23

ArjunPandit wrote: numbers sir numbers..when it comes to AF, they can throw numbers like us. That's why astra needs to be opertionalized fast and in huge numbers.

No idea where you are going with this, because that was not what I am talking about. I am talking about challenges a PLAAF ESM will face from myriad AAMs in IAF inventory, before an ECM or IRCM solution is reached.

As for your point, If you have 10000 missiles of same type, which will all droop down off an intercept trajectory when hit by successful countermeasures, word will go back to base on what need to be done as a CM. So Astra in huge numbers that can be CMed is not the answer. Astra with differing sensors that can be rapidly reprogrammed might be. But “huge numbers” work against such repurposing during war time.

So on so forth...

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 08 Feb 2019 20:32

BREAKING: New Indian missile tech breaks cover — @DRDO_India tests solid-fuel ducted ramjet (SFDR) propelled system from Odisha coast. Will be applied in new air-to-air missile system.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/109 ... 73665?s=19

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Feb 2019 20:43

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePag ... A8.twitter

Next Astra!

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 08 Feb 2019 21:19

ashishvikas wrote:BREAKING: New Indian missile tech breaks cover — @DRDO_India tests solid-fuel ducted ramjet (SFDR) propelled system from Odisha coast. Will be applied in new air-to-air missile system.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/109 ... 73665?s=19

one striking thing about SFDR is the time it took to develop. Dont think actual work has been done in more than 3-4 years when either of ramana/jays/indranil posted the launcher rail. Even the Last test (partially successful as per manu pubby) was in last may only

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 08 Feb 2019 21:59

hate to do this on the day sfdr has been successfully tested, but still
US in talks with India over missile defence collaboration: Pentagon
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 897167.cms
Another fishing hook to check where india is

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Feb 2019 22:04

Mashallah, second test.

Few more test and MDBA will find that since Mirage was sold to Israel, makes it an "major non-NATO French ally" and providing overnight compatibility of EL 2032/2052 radar with Meteor.

Of course Su30 should not be a problem as well, given WW1 & WW2 alliance between France & Russia.

titash · Post by **titash** » 08 Feb 2019 22:12

nam wrote:Mashallah, second test.

Few more test and MDBA will find that since Mirage was sold to Israel, makes it an "major non-NATO French ally" and providing overnight compatibility of EL 2032/2052 radar with Meteor.

Of course Su30 should not be a problem as well, given WW1 & WW2 alliance between France & Russia.

Inshallah!!!...couldn't stop laughing

naird · Post by **naird** » 08 Feb 2019 22:17

nam wrote:Mashallah, second test.

Few more test and MDBA will find that since Mirage was sold to Israel, makes it an "major non-NATO French ally" and providing overnight compatibility of EL 2032/2052 radar with Meteor.

Of course Su30 should not be a problem as well, given WW1 & WW2 alliance between France & Russia.

hahahahaha....too good !!

John · Post by **John** » 08 Feb 2019 22:23

nam wrote:Mashallah, second test.

Few more test and MDBA will find that since Mirage was sold to Israel, makes it an "major non-NATO French ally" and providing overnight compatibility of EL 2032/2052 radar with Meteor.

Of course Su30 should not be a problem as well, given WW1 & WW2 alliance between France & Russia.

I can live with Meteor for now since we are still another 5-10 years for A2A missile to reach testing phase

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Feb 2019 22:59

AS happy as I am with this tests, I am not sure if the ramjet was employed or not.

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Feb 2019 23:19

Indranil wrote:AS happy as I am with this tests, I am not sure if the ramjet was employed or not.

Nozzle less Booster test . Created conditions for ramjet. Ramjet was not tested.

Big stepping stone.

The press release specifically say "paves the way for long range air to air missile."

Edit: Saurav jha says sustainer tested as well. So may have to wait for more details.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 09 Feb 2019 00:05

On the SFDR

India Successfully Tests Supersonic Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet Propelled Missile
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/0 ... d-missile/

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 09 Feb 2019 01:25

Indranil wrote:AS happy as I am with this tests, I am not sure if the ramjet was employed or not.

Same thought here. Official PIB report indicates the tests wer not meant to validate the ramjet motor. But that doesnt mean they were not fired. Its only logical to fire the ramjet once validation of the internal booster is completed. A preliminary test when you have nothing to lose.

DDR article indicates the ramjet motor was fired at M3 speed sustained. But DRDO Annual Report mentioned speed of 2.3-2.5M for the missile. We may have to wait a bit to get clear idea.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2019 02:59

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1093886707970101248 ---> All that India needs is a good AESA seeker for the yet-to-be-named solid fuel ducted ramjet missile that was tested earlier today, and all this consternation about whether the Meteor BVRAAM can be integrated with an Israeli-origin radar on the Tejas will become moot.

sahay · Post by **sahay** » 09 Feb 2019 05:08

High resolution image of the test from PIB