India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Feb 2019 18:58

An org called indian friends of atlanta is filing a lawsuit ahainst dhs over the legality of this entrapment honeypot scheme

If they really came on f1 to this univ after passing consular visa interview, its a deep complex scheme where state dept also knew and went along

There are question marks on use of entrapment schemes

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 03 Feb 2019 18:58

Sid, the argument can be other way too. If paying bribe is crime, so is accepting crime. Why such fake universities have valid registration and are authorized to hand out govt. approved visa/immigration documents in first place to the foreign stundents ?

They should cancel such fake university registrations if they want to invite /have genuine students come to their GOOD universities. Having said that they like you said the treatment has bias and GOI is rightly standing behind its own citizens. Heck if this was other way around if if the citizens murdered citizen of host countries these countries will not spare a second to get them out. Bhopal tragedy (does that ring a bell) compared to that this is minor violation and has to be treated as such.

This was well know conspiracy from the deep state to malign India and desi students. They should not have been issued visa's but they did that fact itself tells you involvement within to malign

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 03 Feb 2019 20:09

Firstly, it is true that these kind of fake univs should not exist. It is definitely a failure from the US side.

Secondly, AFAIK, here is the MO of the students who enrol in to these kind of univs. Most of them are folks who have been recently laid off from H1 or students who are currently on OPT but it is about to expire. To maintain a legal visa status in US, while continuing to stay & search for jobs, these univs offer a path to F1 visa. Most of the students know that the courses offered are time pass ones and online in nature (IIRC, F1 students cannot take online based courses...should be a physical classroom based courses), with very liberal exam practices and thus for most part freeing up the "student" to search for jobs & attend interviews.

There no consular processing...Since the individual is already in US, just mail in the required documents to USCIS along with Change Of Status (COS) application and if approved, a new visa letters will arrive in mail from USCIS.

Of course, it is strange that USCIS had approved such F1 COS applications. After Tri-Valley Univ & similar univs scams back in 2011/12, one would have thought, both the students (on enrolling in to such univs) & USCIS (such univs not bringing up red flags) would have wisen up on such shady schemes.

I still feel like if we want to screw Gotus, let it be on our soil rather than stand up to these "students" who knowingly did the wrong thing. Arrest & deport as many US EJ, NGO etc personalities, even if on flimsy basis. Defer awarding huge MIL contracts to US based cos.

The worst that will happen to these arrested students is them being sent back to India. They are not going back to Central America or Africa, where the situation is horrible. IMHO, GoI should help them out with consular services & ensure that they are treated properly but not plead/request Gotus to stop deportation. If any private Indian based org want to help these students out in such capacities, it is fine.

Anyway, my last post on this. Good luck to them students.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 03 Feb 2019 20:29

Zynda wrote:Firstly, it is true that these kind of fake univs should not exist. It is definitely a failure from the US side.

Secondly, AFAIK, here is the MO of the students who enrol in to these kind of univs. Most of them are folks who have been recently laid off from H1 or students who are currently on OPT but it is about to expire. To maintain a legal visa status in US, while continuing to stay & search for jobs, these univs offer a path to F1 visa. Most of the students know that the courses offered are time pass ones and online in nature (IIRC, F1 students cannot take online based courses...should be a physical classroom based courses), with very liberal exam practices and thus for most part freeing up the "student" to search for jobs & attend interviews.

Are you 100% sure ,if sure please post source because according to TOI:

Yes, the institution has an encouraging Twitter feed that flaunts royal-blue diplomas for a batch of Winter 2018 graduates. Yes, its Facebook page shares posts about the importance of bserving Martin Luther King Jr. Day and articles from The Chronicle......

Not all were chNGE OF STATUS , some directly came on F1 of this fake university.

I do agree that there was violations but lets not go to moral high ground and if that you wish than what about Indian grandfather paralyzed who did not get justice, devavayani,bhopal etc.they were wrong too.

This was a targeted op against desi's and we need to support our own

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 03 Feb 2019 21:03

^^I don't know about that particular univ in question but this is how universities like Tri-Valley Univ & a couple of them more around 8 years ago operated. How do I know so much about these? One of my room mates was about to enrol in to TVU; the univ was run by a Chinese couple but the "admissions officer" was a desi dude. We spoke to him over the phone and he clearly mentioned whatever I've written above. It is when I researched about the school, got to know some finer details about conditions that come with F1 status and convinced my roomie from not enrolling. Luckily, even the desperate situation he was, he refrained from enrolling. So yes, people do end up making the right choices. Similarly, many people have been forced to return to India due to loss of visa status. Coming back to India is really not a big deal...so you can understand the lack of empathy from my side when I hear about people knowingly making wrong choices and then cry foul/innocence.

You won't find any official sources (except perhaps you can Google for TVU & look up the articles that appeared around 2011 when it was busted). Here is what Wiki says:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-Valley_University

I do agree that there was violations but lets not go to moral high ground and if that you wish than what about Indian grandfather paralyzed who did not get justice, devavayani,bhopal etc.they were wrong too.

Like I said, if we want to screw Gotus & US citizens, let it be on our soil...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Feb 2019 21:16

agree with Zynda. why should they not get deported? outside of this fake univ they have no way to claim legal status over there.

GOI can ensure they are given fair treatment in custody, consular access and reciprocate in kind here if that is not extended. but thats it - no need to plead for anything. pretty much all these "students" knew what they were getting into, coming from a state and community that has highest number of F1 and H1 people historically and where craze to get into US is high even in village level.

I do think entrapment schemes like these should be legally challenged and defeated which is what the PIO org intends to try. saves everyone a lot of trouble.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 03 Feb 2019 21:59

I have no issues with deporting them, after following due process and obtaining some clarity on why these students were duped. I am not going into the moral aspect of saying people desperately try to change status by hook or by crook - the burden of proof is on the USCIS' side and let them offer that proof. Till then, as per Indian as well as US law, these students are presumed to be innocent.

My objection is primarily to the typical high-handedness the US establishment shows toward Indian officials and citizens. Remember Khobragade, that grandfather who was assaulted for no fault of his, etc. The US doesn't feel any pinch by behaving this way, and the contrast with Chinese nationals is stark. That Huawei exec is the first such case I can think of, but generally visa fraud is rarely reported on Chinese nationals.

This must change. Zynda's suggestion on withdrawing arms purchases is one, but that may be too much. A graded response matrix has to be devised. As long a single desi student was duped, GoI has justification to take some legal action. How about the Indian consul general join that lawsuit in Atlanta suing the USG for fraud? Also, simultaneously file cases under IPC Section 420 in OUR courts in each Indian city these visas were granted, and name the university officials, USCIS as well as the local USG representative parties to the case. The consular official will of course claim diplomatic immunity, but they are still liable to answer the petition. Let them haul their asses to our courts and present some answers. Then use these cases to file an extradition request against the head of this fake university, file it with interpol so that person(s) are afraid of travelling anywhere. At some point, Foggy bottom might get pissed off at these USCIS types for their penchant for such undercover acts which they have to answer for, or may be not. Either way, the publicity will be damaging to their universities overall, who may end up lobbying against such shit with their gov. Sort of how Aussie univs aggressively court students these days after the negative fallout from the racial incidents in Melbourne.

But such actions will send the message home - mess with Indians at your peril. All legal peril, of course, and offerred with a smile, but peril, nonetheless. No crude stuff as the Chinese are wont to do.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 03 Feb 2019 22:01

Zynda wrote: online in nature (IIRC, F1 students cannot take online based courses...should be a physical classroom based courses), with very liberal exam practices and thus for most part freeing up the "student" to search for jobs & attend interviews.

It's more nuanced than that. There isn't a blanket prohibition on online courses. Only that the course has to be conducted by a university employee. If this is most of the evidence, a competent lawyer should be able to get the students off. Now, if the students were in the know and participants in the scam, they are stuck.

Know the Rules: Online and Distance Learning Classes

An F-1 student may only count one online or distance education course without the physical oversight of a school employee (or the equivalent of three credits) toward a full-course of study per academic term. F-1 students may be eligible to take more than one online class to maintain their status as long as the class is physically proctored or monitored by a school employee.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Feb 2019 23:59

heat on h1/f1 on all fronts just sampling some messages. the cozy days of my era are long gone it seems. a section of older PIOs with GC minted a lot of money placing h1s using their contacts and running bodyshops. i dont think any of them exist much now.

http://forum.murthy.com/topic/122183-wh ... till-2021/
http://forum.murthy.com/topic/122149-h1 ... memo-2018/
http://forum.murthy.com/topic/122140-h1 ... -petetion/

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 04 Feb 2019 03:00

Its not about H1/L1/B1 etc. anymore, its about targeted harassment of Indian community and taking cue people are leaving.

Situation is way worse than comes out in mainstream media. Sample - Spouses of PHDs from best of universities are being held at immigration centers for hours along with drug offenders, criminals and asked to explain why they are coming.

I shall give these students the benefit of doubt as in many cases they would have taken out loans to pay tuition etc. and now face deportation. This is frustration of not being able to build the wall because an 80 year old woman prevented it.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 04 Feb 2019 03:20

^ Well, the fake university was set up during the Obama admin. Crackdown on visas started after 9/11 when some students flew planes into buildings.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Feb 2019 07:08

Ankle trackers put on detained students

Reacting to this development, members of the Telugu Association of North America (TANA) said it was “ridiculous” and “grossly unjust”.

protest is planned in hyd today by parents and their supporters. obviously its nobody's fault except bad Modi's and Naidu/KCR will deftly blame the PM for not being able to get them instant GC instead of ankle trackers.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 04 Feb 2019 08:48

arshyam wrote:A graded response matrix has to be devised.

That is the most Indian thing I have ever heard.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Feb 2019 08:56

fwiw this week a birth tourism scheme run for pregnant rich chinese ladies looking for anchor babies was closed down
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la- ... story.html

EB5 being used to loot rich chinese desperate for planB if they need to escape the emperors wrath https://www.forbes.com/sites/russellfla ... 7e9a8a6a9b

another interesting case in which rich chinese falsify canadian residency and jobs to get PR/citizenship while remaining in china!
https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/society/ ... ch-chinese

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Feb 2019 08:57

imo there may be a crackdown coming on admission of chinese students into STEM areas of univs to curtail their widespread stealing and industrial espionage using threats to parents back home

this will benefit everyone else if the number of sinics swarming into F1 is reduced.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 04 Feb 2019 13:41

Y. Kanan wrote:
arshyam wrote:A graded response matrix has to be devised.
That is the most Indian thing I have ever heard.

Your point being?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Feb 2019 02:11

Zynda wrote:I still feel like if we want to screw Gotus, let it be on our soil rather than stand up to these "students" who knowingly did the wrong thing.

What did they do wrong, legally ? They're not being indicted for their morality . Did the students break laws ? If so, which laws ?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Feb 2019 05:01

This whole fake university thing reeks of classic entrapment, considering that the university was set up by ICE! If this case were to be challenged in a court of law any decent lawyer could prove entrapment here which is illegal. But ICE knows that it will never reach that far. They have treated the students like common criminals and attached ankle monitors to intimidate them. All that those students will be thinking of will be a way to get out of that situation and will take whatever is offered. None is going to fight this out in the court. In any case, even if the students won the case, they would still have no legal status and be deported anyway.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 05 Feb 2019 07:42

Suraj wrote:...
What did they do wrong, legally ? They're not being indicted for their morality . Did the students break laws ? If so, which laws ?

Without looking at the formal indictment, which does not seem to be available on any website, it is difficult to pin point on which laws are broken. I'm not a legal expert, but, looks like it will come down to "misrepresentation" in relation to visa fraud and/or obtaining visa to extend stay/work. For example, misrepresenting school transcripts to obtain visa can be a problem.

Feds used fake Michigan university in immigration sting

Interestingly, for curious legal minds, if following example is legit, does the students have a case against the accuser?
- A thief knowingly opens a locked car that does not belong to him with the intention to steal something from the car
- Thief does not know that their is a bull dog in the car
- As soon as he manages to open the car, the bull dog attacks the thief and bites/bruises him hard to cause him severe injuries
- Cops catch the thief, but, treat him first in the hospital before taking into custody
- Thief is now caught, but, he successfully sues the car owner for dog related injuries

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2019 09:34

Ibnlive

All participants in this scheme knew that the University of Farmington had no instructors or classes (neither on-line nor in-person) and were aware they were committing a crime in an attempt to fraudulently remain in the United States," a State Department spokesperson said in a statement on Monday.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2019 09:36

The only ones who may vaguely be innocent or pin the blame on ucsis or consular visa process are those who came from india on f1 to this place

But i bet all are transferees. If you landed to find a fake univ with no teachers you would inform both police and consulate

So even coming from india they had some plans worked out after entry

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Feb 2019 09:37

Misrepresentation ? For using transcripts from a school expressly set up as an act of entrapment ? It requires multiple levels of engagement with the GOTUS just for the misrepresentation to have a condition to occur, and GOTUS as a defendant would fail the objective criterion for entrapment, if not the subjective one as well.

The school exists and is accredited by the acceptance of the state and the department of education. The students had their I20s or whatever approved by USCIS, and those who weren’t doing AoS were interviewed at consular missions and admitted at PoE by CBP/DHS .

The authorities know the tactic only works because they get to deny every normal right and due process when it comes to an immigration detainee.

About time India returned the favor and entrapped a few Evanjehadis during their sermons while on tourist visa, held them in sordid conditions for a few weeks or months and made it highly public.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 05 Feb 2019 10:18

Entrapment is entrapment. Let's not attempt to find the moral high ground losing sight of what's really happening. **That** is being desi, as an eloquent member deigned to point out earlier.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Feb 2019 10:44

I am not asserting any moral high grounds . Quite the opposite, I'm asking what laws have they broken specifically, because I'm only interested in examining the letter of the law, not its spirit, morality or anything else. As far as I'm concerned, unless they've broken a law without any inducement or entrapment, there's nothing illegal about what they're doing. They applied to a properly accredited university, gained immigration clearance from proper sources, paid fees for the school, and everything else. They didn't photoshop their I20s or anything.

All those EJs coming to India on tourist vijas are wilfully misrepresenting themselves too, including the idiot who ended up getting speared by the Sentinelese.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 05 Feb 2019 11:26

^^ Suraj-san, that post above yours was not aimed at you, but written in a generic sense. We are both saying the same thing, actually (see my earlier post above).

EDITED for clarity.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2019 19:39

Vijay Mallya
Verified account
@TheVijayMallya
Jan 31
More
And finally, the Banks Lawyers in England have objected in writing to my paying my legitimate tax dues to HMRC which I requested. Irony is Indian State Banks want my money in England to settle an Indian debt already secured and deny payment to the U.K. tax exchequer. Disgraceful.

And despite all the attachments in India, Banks have given an open licence to their Lawyers in England to pursue multiple frivolous litigations against me. Who is accountable for spending Public money on Legal fees in such a brazen manner ?

Every morning I wake up to yet another attachment by the DRT recovery officer. Value already crossed 13,000 crores. Banks claim dues including all interest of 9,000 crores which is subject to review. How far will this go and well beyond ? Justified ??

The DRT Recovery Officer recently attaches my Group assets worth over 13,000 crores in India on behalf of the Consortium of Banks. Yet the narrative is that I ran away with the claimed amount of 9000 crores causing loss to the Public Sector Banks. Where is Justice or fair play ?

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 05 Feb 2019 21:04

One sure way to cause a mess all around... ignore the law on both sides they have!

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Feb 2019 02:10

TKiran wrote:Why we don't see Chinese students getting caught like this? Hans are the frauds who cover their fraud more sophisticated. This ride is specifically aimed to catch the fraudsters from India, but not non-partial.

Actually this is good for the genuine Indian students. This way we can keep the track record of only very bright students from India seek good education from US universities, and not dilute our reputation in US. In my opinion, it's very important for Indians to overwhelm the US higher education institutions without diluting the quality, so that in the long term, all the good paying jobs are grabbed by only Indians.

Any dilution in quality would only make these crooks take up odd jobs and slip into the lower levels of the society.

When the ultimate aim is to grab the political power as elites in the society, these bad apples getting pushed back is good thing.

Chinese restaurants have all type of illegals working in back. The thing is that because their English is weak they do not tend to make that many mistakes as Indians. They keep it simple i.e obtain citizenship through marriage, work for a rich chinese business owner. Chinese government do not accept the deportees so US government just pushes them back into Mexico or keep them in jails. Also Chinese tend to keep to themselves. Educated Indians while mingle in with other nationalities. Educated Indians do get green card and citizenship easier because of their education and job requirement in market. Chinese usually return back to China after getting educated., indians try to get Green Card.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 06 Feb 2019 04:41

I admire the steps taken by MEA (and also of many organizations here in US) to help the students.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... f3tmL.html

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 06 Feb 2019 05:09

Suraj wrote:

I dug into this subject bit more. Looks like potential abuses/misuses of Curricular Practical Training (CPT) may have been the root cause. The link below from DHS highlights all the rules and related regulation.

From DHS
F-1 CURRICULAR PRACTICAL TRAINING (CPT)

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Feb 2019 05:26

*How* is the CPT guideline being misused ? It lists several steps that can only be cleared by USCIS or DHS. Some government entity cleared them all via SEVIS/EVerify first, after all.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 06 Feb 2019 08:30

I'm not an expert on the subject, but for the sake of discussion, for example, here are the first two conditions listed in the above DHS website, it says
- Training relates directly to the student’s major area of study.
- Training is an integral part of the school’s established curriculum

If the student continues employment utilizing CPT, while fully knowing that the school/university itself doesn't exist, is it legit? It does not matter what any of those alphabet soup agencies approve. Not trying to oversimplify this with a following analogy, but, for example, in the US while taking driver's license test, instructor often ask a new driver to drive straight when the sign in the front clearly says "right turn only". If the driver listens to the instructor and drive straight, instructor fails the driver for not following sign (doesn't matter what the instructor said).

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 06 Feb 2019 09:41

chanakyaa wrote:Not trying to oversimplify this with a following analogy, but, for example, in the US while taking driver's license test, instructor often ask a new driver to drive straight when the sign in the front clearly says "right turn only". If the driver listens to the instructor and drive straight, instructor fails the driver for not following sign (doesn't matter what the instructor said).

This analogy is applicable when the car is provided by the DMV itself and has right turn disabled somehow. So at the intersection, the sign insists on a right turn, and the instructor insists on going straight; the dice has hence been loaded for the student to fail either way.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Feb 2019 10:24

The CPT has to be approved by an official authority . The student cannot independently pick and do CPT as he pleases without regard for relevance . In fact the system is supposed to check that the application means the relevance criteria in order for it to be approved .

The bottom line is that the students cannot misrepresent themselves here . There’s official approval of a GOTUs entity involved at every step and they received those approvals .

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 06 Feb 2019 10:44

the only reason why they can entrap like this and get away is, the current administration has empowered DHS, ICE etc to take these kinds of steps to deter 'undesirable' immigration. there is no domestic constituency that can get outraged over this as well..the opposite may be true..a section of people will support this.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2019 11:07

ishara to go slow on h1 approvals and gc processing and pile on RFEs even for simple renewals, shaking bars of cage with site visits etc is also part of the day1 plan....but these isharas are verbal and not on the books, as no such provisions exist to go slow or fast. a simple admin thing like reassigning 30 people out of 40 in that dept to some other task like designing the Wall will do ...no ishara needed. the message will filter into ranks.

h1/f1's are being hunted and there aint no permit needed.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Feb 2019 11:24

Gus wrote:the only reason why they can entrap like this and get away is, the current administration has empowered DHS, ICE etc to take these kinds of steps to deter 'undesirable' immigration. there is no domestic constituency that can get outraged over this as well..the opposite may be true..a section of people will support this.

The administration is playing to the gallery. These tactics wouldn't stand in court, and the only reason they happen is that when you're in immigration detention centers, you have NO recourse to due process. Immigration courts don't recognize many of the liberties accorded to mango man.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 06 Feb 2019 11:44

There's been quite a lot of rigging the system by using fake docs etc...like this guy here. The only issue I can take up is, if this is selective targeting of one country and a pass to other countries like cheen, which also engages in lots of stuff like this.

the article says the dude is now US citizen and also says "he committed these crimes as an Indian citizen and as legal permanent resident."

that's at least 5 years plus from GC to citizen. how far back are these guys going to dig things up to find stuff like this?

https://www.news18.com/news/world/india ... 26431.html

An Indian-American was arrested on Tuesday for allegedly submitting 11 fake H-1B visa applications and fraudulently procuring his own citizenship, US Attorney Craig Carpenito said.

Neeraj Sharma, 43, living in the Piscataway township of New Jersey, is charged by complaint with one count of visa fraud and one count of naturalization fraud, the attorney said. He will be produced before US Magistrate Judge Michael Hammer in Newark federal court.

The visa and naturalisation fraud charges carry a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison and a fine of USD 250,000. According to documents filed in this case and statements made in court, Sharma recruited foreign workers with purported IT expertise who sought work in the US.

He is the owner and chief executive officer of Magnavision LLC, an information technology staffing and consulting company based in Somerset, New Jersey.

When submitting the potential staffers' H-1B visa paperwork to US Citizenship and Immigrations Services, Sharma falsely represented that the foreign workers had full-time positions awaiting them at a national bank, a pre-requisite to securing their visas, federal prosecutors alleged.

The H-1B program applies to employers seeking to hire non-immigrant aliens as workers in specialty occupations or as fashion models of distinguished merit and ability.

In fact, Sharma had never secured work for the applicants and submitted phony letters to the USCIS on the bank's letterhead with forged signatures of bank executives, the complaint said, adding that he committed these crimes as an Indian citizen and as legal permanent resident.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 06 Feb 2019 11:48

the administration has given signals that it will go after naturalized citizens if it finds issues in the application.

back when the administration was new, there were some citizen PIO folks who would make snide comments parroting trump stuff..playing on the anxieties of the h1bs in the company.. and when the above signal came out, it shut them up.

at least a few people I know have done some stuff like this, maybe not outright fake documents, but creative interpretation of contracts etc.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 06 Feb 2019 11:48

^^ Interesting - so if this guy's citizenship is revoked, he becomes stateless? I'd think he had to renounce his Indian citizenship and so there will be no legal reason why we have to accept him back.

Suraj wrote:Immigration courts don't recognize many of the liberties accorded to mango man.

Not even hyooman rights? Sounds like a stick to beat them with.