Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Feb 2019 05:40

SaiK wrote:http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePag ... A8.twitter

Next Astra!

Fantastic ! Wait for this to get into trials and MBDA will do a volte-face and come offer the Meteor for the Tejas.

dmun · Post by **dmun** » 09 Feb 2019 08:22

Kartik wrote:
SaiK wrote:http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePag ... A8.twitter

Next Astra!
Fantastic ! Wait for this to get into trials and MBDA will do a volte-face and come offer the Meteor for the Tejas.

Why even go for Meteor when we have our own weapon?
What other applications do we see of the SFDR once it is perfected ? Can it be used for XRSAM ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Feb 2019 08:22

i shall repeat again there is no urgent need for meteor on ANY iaf platform unless we can get a strong troop of F22/Foxhounds which can dash @ mach2.5 at high level and release it as a ERAM to target heavies in the enemy rear airspace before escaping.

imo we are wasting money getting meteor for rafale as well, but thankfully will be a small inventory.

when local manufacture is able to drive a SFDR price down to Astra levels then we can talk of large buys. first let us spend shekels on getting Astra onto every IAF plane and phase out the AA10 and AA12 and get a bigger Astra2 into service as well. lets not cream our pants at the next iphone20 before having a iphone6S in every pocket down to armed Hawks and Bisons. NUMBERS NUMBERS NUMBERS PRODUCTION and not a serial monogamy of running after science projects (which take time to mature)

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15 ... ir-missile

meantime the pentagon is funding a LREW that is a 2 stage ER weapon to be equipped with A2G and ARM seekers launched by F-15C arsenal ships operating in silent mode behind a frontal edge of ELO platforms who gather intel on targets. this sounds like the kind of thing I was pointing to with Foxhound/F22 going after enemy heavies both emitting and non-emitting in the rear.

note that ramjets cannot operate that well in upper atmosphere, hence LREW will use solid fuel boosters

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 09 Feb 2019 08:36

Singha wrote:i shall repeat again there is no urgent need for meteor on ANY iaf platform unless we can get a strong troop of F22/Foxhounds which can dash @ mach2.5 at high level and release it as a ERAM to target heavies in the enemy rear airspace before escaping.

imo we are wasting money getting meteor for rafale as well, but thankfully will be a small inventory.

when local manufacture is able to drive a SFDR price down to Astra levels then we can talk of large buys. first let us spend shekels on getting Astra onto every IAF plane and phase out the AA10 and AA12 and get a bigger Astra2 into service as well. lets not cream our pants at the next iphone20 before having a iphone6S in every pocket down to armed Hawks and Bisons. NUMBERS NUMBERS NUMBERS PRODUCTION and not a serial monogamy of running after science projects (which take time to mature)

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15 ... ir-missile

meantime the pentagon is funding a LREW that is a 2 stage ER weapon to be equipped with A2G and ARM seekers launched by F-15C arsenal ships operating in silent mode behind a frontal edge of ELO platforms who gather intel on targets. this sounds like the kind of thing I was pointing to with Foxhound/F22 going after enemy heavies both emitting and non-emitting in the rear.

note that ramjets cannot operate that well in upper atmosphere, hence LREW will use solid fuel boosters

Singha ji, actually if you have a stealthy aircraft like F-22, you are already making one of the key attributes of meteor redundant i.e. the long range. The question would arise that if F-22 is radar invisible till lets say 50 kms, then what is the need of a meteor type bvr missile with long legs. A standard Amraam should be more than enough. Otherwise you dont have confidence in the stealth.

But yes you are right that we dont have any urgent need for such types of missiles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Feb 2019 09:05

stealthy platforms could more easily slip in through cracks and holes in radar bubble created by MALD and growla type platforms.

anyway the muricans are running with F15C/E as the large aperture linebacker going active on Aesa radars while f22/jsf/ucavs roam in front in passive mode. using the high payload of the airframe they will deploy this phoenix replacement LREW on selective targets.

kurup · Post by **kurup** » 09 Feb 2019 10:58

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:AS happy as I am with this tests, I am not sure if the ramjet was employed or not.
Same thought here. Official PIB report indicates the tests wer not meant to validate the ramjet motor. But that doesnt mean they were not fired. Its only logical to fire the ramjet once validation of the internal booster is completed. A preliminary test when you have nothing to lose.

DDR article indicates the ramjet motor was fired at M3 speed sustained. But DRDO Annual Report mentioned speed of 2.3-2.5M for the missile. We may have to wait a bit to get clear idea.

The warning issued for the test has a range of only 60 km . So the chances of ramjet ignition are minimal .

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 09 Feb 2019 12:41

Singha wrote:stealthy platforms could more easily slip in through cracks and holes in radar bubble created by MALD and growla type platforms.

anyway the muricans are running with F15C/E as the large aperture linebacker going active on Aesa radars while f22/jsf/ucavs roam in front in passive mode. using the high payload of the airframe they will deploy this phoenix replacement LREW on selective targets.

Makes sense as F-22 is severely limited in terms of payload if it carries only internal bay munitions. F-15s will provide the needed and much deeper magazine capacity.

nam · Post by **nam** » 09 Feb 2019 16:07

With tech like SDFR, we are now jumping off the paradigm of playing catch up.

APJ' soul will be at peace, watching his nation leave the "sixth nation" syndrome.

On the other end, our efforts in such tech will make it more expensive for Pak to continue being "equal-equal". Even for Chinis, it would be difficult and expensive to feed their rent boy, advance tech, just to keep us busy.

It is given we will not invade Pak. So we have to force them in an arms race by investing in tech, which requires expensive counter.

BMD is a perfect example. Next is hypersonic/scramjet.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 09 Feb 2019 18:23

https://mobile.twitter.com/vkthakur/sta ... 3982080000

SDFR explained thread by vkthakur

Apart from DDR, he also says the ramjet sustainer was tested + thrust modulation probably also tested.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 09 Feb 2019 18:55

I hope the SFDR missile team would also talk to ADA to design the series production version in a way that can be put into the weapons bay of AMCA. It should be taken care of during development phase itself to save valuable time during AMCA induction. Right now the tail fins are high, it would need to be shortened for it to fulfill requirements of a stealth mission.

nam · Post by **nam** » 09 Feb 2019 19:00

Comparing images of SDRE and Euro maal, the Meteor seems to have many more fins.

The ones we tested would have been purely for propulsion, with fins to control basic straight line flight.

It might be some time before the real maal comes out.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 09 Feb 2019 20:02

Didn't find this news report posted ...

Helicopter-launched anti-tank missile 'Helina' test-fired

BALASORE (Odisha), Feb 8: India test-fired its helicopter-launched version of one of the most-advanced anti-tank weapons from the Odisha coast on Friday.

Helina, the helicopter-launched version of the Nag anti-tank guided missile with a hit range of 7-8 km, was launched from an Army chopper. The weapon system was tested for its full range at 12.55 pm near the Integrated Test Range in Chandipur in Balasore district, defence sources said.

During the trial, the Helina was released smoothly from the launch platform, following which the missile tracked the target all through its course in order to strike with high precision.

Developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), it is one of the most-advanced anti-tank weapons in the world, sources said.

It is guided by an infrared imaging seeker (IIR) operating in the lock-on before-launch mode and helps in further strengthening the defence capabilities of the country.

All parameters of the flight test were monitored by the telemetry stations, tracking systems and the helicopters deployed by the Army.

On July 13, 2015, three round trials of Helina were conducted at a firing range in Jaisalmer in Rajastan. Helina was also successfully test-fired from Rudra helicopter at Pokhran test range on August 19 last year. (PTI)

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 09 Feb 2019 21:16

kurup wrote:
JayS wrote: Same thought here. Official PIB report indicates the tests wer not meant to validate the ramjet motor. But that doesnt mean they were not fired. Its only logical to fire the ramjet once validation of the internal booster is completed. A preliminary test when you have nothing to lose.

DDR article indicates the ramjet motor was fired at M3 speed sustained. But DRDO Annual Report mentioned speed of 2.3-2.5M for the missile. We may have to wait a bit to get clear idea.
The warning issued for the test has a range of only 60 km . So the chances of ramjet ignition are minimal .

Good point. But 60km is sufficient I feel to get the ramjet motor going for preliminary data collection. Basically you have nothing to lose by doing that.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 09 Feb 2019 22:19

Mach 3 is 1km/s. For a 6 second ramjet burn, you'd only need 6km.
Remember scramjet test was for 5s only.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 09 Feb 2019 22:32

Prasad wrote:Mach 3 is 1km/s. For a 6 second ramjet burn, you'd only need 6km.
Remember scramjet test was for 5s only.

Just to proide some perspective, this is not apple to apple comparion strictly speaking.

5s is quite significant time for a scramjet. Because flow takes only a few 100 microsecond to stabilize and get into steady mode. Internal flow in a Ramjet is subsonic especially in the secondary combustor it tends to be low subsonic in some areas with quite a bit of unsteady flow characteristics.

And then again what you want to test also dictate how much time is sufficient.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Feb 2019 23:21

Guys I deleted a whole bunch of OT posts. Please stick to the topic. We can always decide the future of South Asia in some other thread.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 10 Feb 2019 00:01

Nam ji, IIRC meteor has to go through some changes in tail fins to integrate it into F35 since both were made in silos.
I just wish our development teams would talk to each other, or better when IAF advises their requirement they add future compatibility with AMCA to it.
Doing structural changes later will require time, money and extensive testing again. These could be completely or partly avoided if the missile is made to fit inside the weapons bay from the very start.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Feb 2019 00:37

even amraam was changed to clipped fins or folding fins for f22.
there are many factors that come in play when changing fin shape and size - amraam had to compensate with more powerful actuators and motors to help keep same end stage energy

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/ ... 2137.0;wap

so as you said, better to design these new missiles keeping internal AMCA bay volume in mind from day1.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Feb 2019 04:00

Nam,

What you see now is the real deal. The airframe won’t change.

Jay,

I think you are right. I think they used the land based booster to take the missile to aircraft launch speed and altitude. Then after separation, they fired the missiles internal nozzleless booster, and checked everything on that. This would have validated that the missile reaches ramjet operation speed which can be sustained for long enough for ignition to happen.

Instead of terminating the test there, they tested the guidance logic as the missile must have been already flying 2.5 to 3 Mach and at about 20 km or higher altitude.

Both of the above tests succeeded. Kurup’s observation of the 60 km NOTAM ties is nicely with this sequence.

I don’t think the ramjet was fired. It was not part of this test. Meanwhile, did you read the tender to indigenize the glues for the missile?

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 10 Feb 2019 22:19

Indanil sir, is there anywhere I can read the physics of a2a missiles. High level, As in how do they adjust their paths when the target is maneuvering. Calculating basic things like time to intercept, distance of interception. There are many moving variables that i could think even for a st line interception.
1. Pulse/Acceleration for the missile and the jet
2. Drags/Friction (Assuming point objects)
3. Variable mass of the objects
4. Aerodynamics of the object (removing assumption 3) and using CGs for lateral and vertical forces
5. Altitude and atmospheric dynamics (density, weather, time of the day?)
6. Velocity of launch vehicle and the target

Is there anywhere i could read the basics.

Context: I had an interesting exchange with vishnu som on twitter where he was quoting that SFDR will fly mach 3-7. I did post some basic calculations (assuming that the's right, for the sake or argument, even though i doubt that). Under very simple calculations, it came out that a st line interception will happen at ~430 km away from launch point for a tail chase mode. I doubt any astra class missile can do that.He countered that my assumption of st line is flawed, But I dont have adequate theoretical background to come up with a more logical argument. Thought of doing vector based calculations, but then thought of asking you first.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Feb 2019 22:25

Jays,
Of course, ramjet internals are a different process, reducing speed n all. Still, consistent flame holding at constant speed would be a decent first test, wouldn't it.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 10 Feb 2019 23:45

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1094636396302585857

Ground Launch Video of @DRDO_India's Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet Missile

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Feb 2019 00:25

Arjun,

Interception will never be straight line unless the target doesn’t have much manueverability like a ballistic missile/warhead, UAV, or helicopter.

But, Vishnu is wrong that SFDR will be Mach 7 capable. It will be around 2.5-3.5Mach. It is not for speed that people turn to ramjets. At higher speeds 7M and above, rocket are more efficient than air breathing engines designed to date. People turn to ramjets for efficiency at A2A missile speeds I.e. 2.5-4.0 M. This gives SFDR, Meteor more range/energy than rocket powered compatriots. At the same time, ramjet powered missiles, especially SFDR/Meteor which have chin mounted air intakes have more restrictive flight envelops than rocket powered ones.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Feb 2019 01:50

You'll need scramjet to sustain speeds well in excess off Mach 5 within those design constraints. The benefits of of an SFRJ is that it allows the speed to be sustained more efficiently compared to an SRM. The drawback is obviously the challenge in opening up the flight envelope as Indranil mentioned above, and also the weight of the missile.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Feb 2019 03:11

gaurav.p wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/vkthakur/sta ... 3982080000

SDFR explained thread by vkthakur

Apart from DDR, he also says the ramjet sustainer was tested + thrust modulation probably also tested.

Thrust modulation being tested makes this basis for cruise/ hypersonic missile intercept programs. This could be second stage for such a missile.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 11 Feb 2019 03:48

^^^Indranil and BrarW thanks for the above info. If I may ask a question....given the intake positioning and potential inherent maneuvering restrictions would such a weapon utilise skid to turn or bank to turn.

Is it correct to assume that so long as airflow is not restricted the weapon could potentially use skid to turn? Many thanks

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 11 Feb 2019 04:20

what is a skid Andy?

Would not that be another control surface that would add to the weight of the mizzile?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Feb 2019 06:07

Sachin sahab,

It’s a way of turning in the air. It doesn’t need any extra control surfaces. My first aeromodel only used skid to turn as I only had an elevator and rudder on that plane.

Andy Bhai,

I know that Meteor uses an hybrid of the two. And that makes sense. When you have to make small turns use skid to turn. The side slip will be within the tolerance of the intakes. For more sweeping turns use the bank (and higher efficiency).

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 11 Feb 2019 06:45

Thanks IR

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 11 Feb 2019 07:01

Is it only me, or that missiles initial speed is way faster than any other Indian missile. In comparison Akash is much slower off the mark when seen through online videos.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Feb 2019 08:44

The fastest one in Indian inventory is QRSAM, for obvious reasons.

By the way, the acceleration you see in this video is because of the ground based booster developed for testing. It is not part of the actual missile. Caveat: we never know. In the long run, this could be our MRSAM.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 11 Feb 2019 09:23

If yoy see the Akash missile in termunal engagement you can appreciate the striking speed difference.

The first stage is just to elevate it to required height and speed to mimick a plane launch.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 11 Feb 2019 10:33

In the schematics of Meteor, I noticed the placements of the 2 air intakes. They didn't seem symmetrical, at least from the angle in the pictures. I am assuming those are designed to maximize the maneuvering envelope.

Does SFDR utilize any of Akash's technologies like air-intake design?

Also, if Ramjet is ideal for long range engagements, is Akash's short range the result of it being a SAM & a liquid fuelled one at that (causing weight increase)?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 11 Feb 2019 11:46

I see no squeak on roosi forums/ sources regarding SFDR. Surprisingly silent regarding a program which involves Russia.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 11 Feb 2019 11:58

With all this very successful test of Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet Missile, hope Astra production is not put to back burners.

We still needs Astra in large numbers and look for export possibilities.

Lots of new missile systems are getting developed but don't see all are going into Production quickly.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 11 Feb 2019 13:02

Thakur_B wrote:I see no squeak on roosi forums/ sources regarding SFDR. Surprisingly silent regarding a program which involves Russia.

yes, did not hear anything much after that first test. Always wondered what is the actual deal on that collaboration?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Feb 2019 13:06

SFDR is still far away.

First there is Astra Mk1, then dual pulse Astra Mk2, then SFDR.

Thakur ji, SFDR is sampurn desi in design and manufacturing.

Prem ji,
1. What do you mean by the intakes are not symmetrical on Meteor? They are perfect mirror images of each other, but not placed at 180 degrees.
2. SFDR does not lean on Akash. DRDL is studing an LFRJ design. That does use Akash's geomerty.
3. Akash is not liquid fueled. Its short range is because of two reasons: Mk1 is guided by land-based radar and 2, it doesn't have a coast phase. It is just powered all the way through. Akash 1S addressed problem 1. Akash mk2 tkaes care of both of the above. I expect it to way around 350 kgs and have a range of 50 kms.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 11 Feb 2019 13:19

Indranil, fyi, a serach of "SFDR India Russia" threw up a lot of articles after that first test.

Not my fav source, but here is latest from Livefist:

Unlike the Astra, which rides on a smokeless solid fuel rocket motor, SFDR technology — a $70 million joint effort since 2013 by India and Russia

A senior DRDO scientist with the missiles and munitions cluster told Livefist, “This is a strategically very critical program with our Russian partners. The first application will be a new air-to-air missile and all current work will be dedicated towards achieving that. The IAF has been a very good partner for us on the Astra, and we are looking forward to carrying that ahead with this new technology.”

In 2016, during ground tests, the DRDO had revealed that the SFDR-powered weapon would sport a range of 120 km at speeds of 2.3-2.5 Mach, though these specifications are understood to have been revised upward now. The DRDO and Russia have worked together on the development and testing of the nozzle-less booster, boron-based ramjet sustainer and fuel flow controller, in addition to the design of the the dual air intakes. The $70 million program aims to achieve demonstrable finality by summer 2020, by which time the Indian Air Force — as with the Astra — will guide an acceptance phase. Engineering design and wind tunnel testing on the new missile is still under way and is likely to see changes as the SFDR system progresses through testing.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Feb 2019 13:24

Looks like I am wrong on this being a desi project, but that report is full of inaccuracies.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Feb 2019 14:03

Prasad wrote:Jays,
Of course, ramjet internals are a different process, reducing speed n all. Still, consistent flame holding at constant speed would be a decent first test, wouldn't it.

Of coarse it would be, but its important to get some steady state and I am not sure 5-6s are enough for that in case of Ramjet. Just my gut feeling based on experience of working on the two systems.

BTW there is no "flame holding" for SFRD as is the case in LFRJ, if you mean that by the term.