Pulwama Attack

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 18 Feb 2019 09:50

5 army soldiers including a major getting martyred fighting holed-up terrorists, with no element of surprise?
How does that happen?
A bomb attack is a different thing, but this is simply not acceptable.
We really need to re-evaluate our tactics.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 18 Feb 2019 09:51

Deans wrote: There isn't a line running continuously from Jammu to Srinagar. Most of the section from Katra to Banihal, is not complete.

Yes I know, but it is complete where it matters, which is in the valley.
We should take advantage of that.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 18 Feb 2019 10:02

ManuJ wrote:5 army soldiers including a major getting martyred fighting holed-up terrorists, with no element of surprise?
How does that happen?
A bomb attack is a different thing, but this is simply not acceptable.
We really need to re-evaluate our tactics.

This is possible only when local terror supporters get much deserved punishment for obstructing soldiers.. It is possible that locals warn terrorists beforehand so they are in better position to take early lucky shots..

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Feb 2019 10:31

Prashanth_R wrote:NDTV started setting new narration now that main opposition parties are not supporting strong action against Pak. So that they can blame Modi directly if anything goes wrong in future.

I think it will not impact decision making of Modi. But still I wonder how these idiots are so loyal to their masters even after facing backlash everyday.

The glory will belong to Modi only. No question about that.

The opposition is being short sighted to deny any credit to Modi.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Feb 2019 10:34

Arima wrote:If India does some operation through vikramaditya or subs will that be considered as full war?

Yes it will be an act of war. If it turns into a total war will depend on TSP.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 18 Feb 2019 10:35

Three Jihadi students, Manzoor, Mushtaq, and Maqbool [all three from Kashmir, BTW], attack a fellow student, Koushik Debnath, over the latter's Facebook post supporting the army in BENGALURU. Here are the ironies - both Manzoor and Maqbool were admitted under Prime MInister's Scholarship Scheme [for Jihadis?] in Bengaluru. And the deputy CM of Karnataka, Parameshwara, has asked the Kashmiri students to appeal for help if they are feeling threatened. What should the Hindu students who are getting attacked by the Jihadis start feeling and whom should they approach for help?

https://www.deccanherald.com/city/3-kas ... 18992.html

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 18 Feb 2019 10:43

^^although answers will be inflammatory, and emotional, this is no time to look inside and blame all muslims, and Kashmiris.

Lets avoid such flame baits.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Feb 2019 10:50

from the shaky video of burhan wani encounter, a ring of army troops was taking cover and firing into a grove of trees near a village ... but thing to note was a bare 50m away, a JK police type vehicle , with police using tear gas and lathis was keeping at bay a troop of militant stone throwing villagers trying to obstruct the siege and help the pigs escape.

this I am told is quite common. even after the pulwama blast there was stone throwing by locals at the other vehicles of the convoy which stopped and ran to help the blast victims.

see the whole video, the villagers are at 4:31 onward

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 18 Feb 2019 10:55

ramana wrote:Rohan1424 banned for trolling

Namaskar ! Seeing you after a long time Ramana Garu & Have a Good day !

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 18 Feb 2019 10:59

From a few MSM news in US:

Pakistan's flag is Google's top result for 'the best toilet paper in the world.' Here's why (they mention Pulwama)

If you’re searching Google for “the best toilet paper in the world,” you won’t come across Charmin or Angel Soft.

The top result: the green and white national flag of Pakistan.

Why? It’s likely backlash following a Valentine’s Day terror bombing in India’s Pulwama district of Kashmir

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 18 Feb 2019 11:03

Valley has become rotten place. Humane approach will never work. Instead of expecting army to clean up, people of India should take the charge. Set an example soon else there will be more valleys across the nation in future.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 18 Feb 2019 11:08

ManuJ wrote:5 army soldiers including a major getting martyred fighting holed-up terrorists, with no element of surprise?
How does that happen?
A bomb attack is a different thing, but this is simply not acceptable.
We really need to re-evaluate our tactics.

Karthik S wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Five Army personnel including Major martyred in encounter with terrorists in Pulwama - ToI
We still haven't changed our strategy, this firefight with terrorists inside a house or compound is taking heavy toll.

CRamS wrote:^^ We are taking heavy casualties. This is not good. Army needs to come up with a plan to hit back and clean up the area infested with pigLeTs

Comments like the above are why the GOI has been dithering from taking decisive action against Pakistan. Today, the soldier is not able to pull the trigger because there are countless other fingers in his trigger guard -- fingers of his fellow countrymen which actively vent their emotions on social media at the drop of a hat, and prevent him & him superiors from doing what they must.

War by it's very nature is an endeavour in which one literally needs to throw men at the problem. We have been successful in all but one of the wars we have fought not because we had the best of equipment and deepest of war reserves...we were successful because we could throw more number of men at the problem than our enemy could.

That is our biggest strength and it is that strength which Pakistan is trying to weaken using our own media/social media as a sledgehammer. One of the posters here commented "Indian don't have the appetite for body bags". That is the scariest comment, because if that's how the entire country feels then it's time we started practicing the Pakistani anthem or the Chinese anthem.

In times like this, whatever the provocation, we would do well to remember what Thomas Jefferson once said "....the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure."

That 'manure' maybe someone's son, brother, husband or father but that's just the way it is and we need to swallow that fact & keep moving. And keep believing our Army when it says "...appropriate response at a time & place of our choosing".

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 18 Feb 2019 11:19

actually things are not as bad as they seem... in the 90's and early 2000 there was raging militancy in doda, kishtwar etc...that area got sanitised. even in the valley proper , its 2 districts of kulgam and pulwama where trouble is happening. 80% to 90% incident are in this general area. not much happening in other areas ... on the -ve side..radicalisation throuh social media is on an all time high. Could be doing a house to house search..got bunched up and were surprised by the terrorists...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Feb 2019 11:26

Pakistan A "Dear Country" To All Saudis: Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/pakista ... topstories

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Feb 2019 11:27

hemant_sai wrote:Valley has become rotten place. Humane approach will never work. Instead of expecting army to clean up, people of India should take the charge. Set an example soon else there will be more valleys across the nation in future.

Post without any substance and which adds neither new information or new analysis to the conversation.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Feb 2019 11:33

sajaym wrote:Comments like the above are why the GOI has been dithering from taking decisive action against Pakistan. Today, the soldier is not able to pull the trigger because there are countless other fingers in his trigger guard -- fingers of his fellow countrymen which actively vent their emotions on social media at the drop of a hat, and prevent him & him superiors from doing what they must.

War by it's very nature is an endeavour in which one literally needs to throw men at the problem. We have been successful in all but one of the wars we have fought not because we had the best of equipment and deepest of war reserves...we were successful because we could throw more number of men at the problem than our enemy could.

That is our biggest strength and it is that strength which Pakistan is trying to weaken using our own media/social media as a sledgehammer. One of the posters here commented "Indian don't have the appetite for body bags". That is the scariest comment, because if that's how the entire country feels then it's time we started practicing the Pakistani anthem or the Chinese anthem.

In times like this, whatever the provocation, we would do well to remember what Thomas Jefferson once said "....the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure."

That 'manure' maybe someone's son, brother, husband or father but that's just the way it is and we need to swallow that fact & keep moving. And keep believing our Army when it says "...appropriate response at a time & place of our choosing".

Agree.

War is a dirty business and against an ideological and pathological enemy is worse than dirty. I have been consistently pointing out that there is no one shot solution. There is nothing we can "imagine" that will clean up the whole morass.

No the breakup of bakistan will also not wipe out the problem even though it will certainly weaken the problem by quite a bit. The central planning, funding, etc will be gone and therefore easier to tackle/hit/prosecute. The ideology that fuels hate will not disappear with with the breakup of bakistan.

We are in it for a long haul one way or another and we have to think and plan for that. There are no silver bullets and no short cuts.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Feb 2019 11:34

Another point of view.

The destruction of the TSD was, however, a serious body blow for the Indian Army

Deeply vested interests have played a very dirty role in this wilful degradation of our intelligence assets, information gathering effectiveness, covert strike and retaliatory capabilities.

TSD could have prevented Pulwama massacre if not sabotaged

TSD could have prevented Pulwama massacre if not sabotaged

Abhinandan Mishra
February 16, 2019,

New Delhi: Media reports alleging that two highly sophisticated “off-air interceptors” were being used to monitor the conversation of ministers and other senior UPA government functionaries in South Block and North Block, sounded the death knell of the Technical Support Division (TSD). As this newspaper reported earlier, TSD was a tiny specialised unit of the Indian Army and was formed in May 2010 after General V.K. Singh became the Chief of Army Staff. The TSD was painted as a rogue unit by these media reports, which led to its disbanding in May 2012. The TSD had carried out several operations that prevented 26/11 Mumbai-type attacks from taking place. The TSD was exactly the sort of highly specialised intelligence unit needed to pre-empt Pulwama type clandestine terrorist preparations. Its sabotage by vested interests has led to a critical gap in military intelligence capability, say defence experts.

The media reports, quoting Army “sources”, terrorised the political dispensation of the time by claiming that the TSD was using these interceptors to spy on the phone calls of even the Defence Minister. But there was a “slight” problem to such claims—the military does not have any record whatsoever of the purchase of these interceptors. And this when the record books of the military log in even the purchase of the boots of a soldier in multiple places. The existence of these interceptors was also not mentioned by the Army when it carried out court-martial proceedings of one of the officers who was a part of the TSD.

“The interceptors and the rogue nature of their work existed only in media reports. The Army, even during its internal proceedings which were started post May 2012, never mentioned anything about the existence of any such interceptors,” a government official told The Sunday Guardian.

“Imagine a Defence Minister reading in newspapers that an Army unit was intercepting his calls and that the same unit was also trying to topple a state government. And when the Defence Minister goes to the Army Chief (not General V.K. Singh) to seek answers, the Army Chief too says that this unit is a ‘rogue’. What would the Defence Minister do? He will not interfere when the unit is shut down. And that is what happened with the TSD,” a senior government source told The Sunday Guardian.

Highly placed sources said that the formation of TSD was approved, in writing, by the then Defence Minister, A.K. Antony when he signed the operational directive to develop covert capability of the Indian Army so that it could take pre-emptive and retaliatory action against terrorist groups.

“It was a covert unit, not a clandestine unit dealing primarily in humint (human intelligence). A clandestine unit carries out the operation and claims the success or the failure of the operation. A covert unit does not exist in the eyes of the public. It neither claims its success nor its failure. TSD was a covert unit. It cannot claim that two high ranking terror group leaders were picked up and brought to India by the TSD, nor how this unit was very close to taking out a head of a terrorist group who has brought innumerable sufferings to the country by way of terrorist strikes and killing of Army soldiers,” a senior Army officer stated. Even Pakistan’s own covert units, including Lashkar-e-Tayyaba had raised the “issue” of TSD in multiple circles.

Sources who are aware of the matter said that TSD was mandated to target high ranking terrorists by penetrating deep into the enemy territory, carrying out psychological warfare, both internally and externally and pre-empting terror strikes by whatever means necessary. “No Army Chief, traditionally wants to have a unit like TSD under him since it has never been done before. V.K. Singh, however, when he became the chief, decided to go with it. Now, I don’t think any Army Chief will ever raise any such unit because of the baseless controversies that were stuck to it,” another senior Army officer said.

According to officers, the TSD successfully managed to thwart the supply of arms and ammunition that the Naxals in Chhattisgarh and Andhra Pradesh were getting from Northeast based insurgents.

“Such arms supply to the Naxals via this route had virtually dried up when the TSD was there, as TSD officers were very ‘strong’ and active in the Northeast. Once the TSD was disbanded, Naxals started getting the weapons again, and in May 2013 the Naxals killed almost the entire leadership of the Chhattisgarh unit of the Congress by using the weapons that they had received from Northeast based insurgent groups. One can ask a hypothetical question: would the Congress leaders in Chhattisgarh have survived if the TSD was there? The answer is not that difficult to guess,” stated the officer.

Another senior Army officer, who is aware of the details regarding the TSD, said that fictitious reports were leaked from Army Headquarters regarding the “rogue” nature of the TSD to the media.

“Media carried reports that the TSD had paid money to an MLA in the state of Jammu and Kashmir to topple the state government. Can one Independent MLA topple any state government? Each and every penny that was used by the TSD was accounted for and when the dust settled the Army too found that there was no discrepancy. It was a concerted effort launched at various levels, in a planned manner, to destroy the TSD,” the Army officer recalled.

The officer, who was a part of the establishment which was working closely with the TSD when it was brought down, recalled, “The TSD was doomed the day Lt General D.S. Suhag, Brigadier Abhay Krishna and Colonel Srikumar were given show-cause notices in the ‘Jorhat Dacoity’ case that took place in December 2011, and the media linked it as V.K. Singh trying to break the line of succession. The media forgot that it was V.K. Singh who had recommended Suhag for promotion to Army Commander. Suhag was show-caused for his failure to control a rogue unit and the dacoity that took place under his watch. Later, a joint secretary in the Ministry of Defence got into a personal fight with V.K. Singh and took the TSD down. The leaks to the media were made at the behest of this joint secretary,” he stated.

The value of TSD and the damage its closure cost the Indian Army in the long run, can perhaps be best summarised by the observations of the then Deputy Chief of Army, Lt General D.S. Thakur, who while appearing before a related Army proceeding, said, “It is sad to see that the witch hunt against the Intelligence Corps Officers who put their careers and lives on the line and took grave risks in conducting these operations in the service of the nation, still continues. It is also sad that, we don’t realise what damage we have been doing to the overall morale and effectiveness of our Intelligence Corps. By pursuing such inquiries we are only sending message to our Intelligence Corps personnel not to take risks and play safe. It is our officers at the apex level who should squarely take the blame for this state of affairs as without vibrant Intelligence Corps operations, we will be blinded in the Army.”

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 18 Feb 2019 11:42

In the long term - we have to erect semipermanent surveillance state in Kashmir vale - next couple of decades the Afghan Jihad being funneled towards Indian borders will be a given when the Taliban are back in the equation.

Setup CCTV cameras covering movements on all roads(even the minor ones) with quadcopters buzzing atop recording people movements in villages & urban gallis during night.During day MALE and HALE type drones should be patrolling at high altitude. Have a center where analysts pore over the video data to spot/track activity and organisers. Take a leaf out of how the Chinese are stepping up the game in xinjiang - atleast the surveillance aspects.

We are 3 Trillion USD economy (going to double in less than a decade) with millions of qualified youth. There is nothing difficult here especially since the drones & tech is being deployed in our own airspace & within our own borders. Ramp up the numbers of our homemade HALE & MALE drones on our side(doesn't matter if they crash a few times - as they will fall in Indian territory) - We dont just need the tiny Army handled intelligence setups like TSD which operate near and across the border.We need a behemoth - give total freedom for the Army to gather intel in every nook & cranny of Kashmir.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Feb 2019 11:49

^^
We have to make the enemy territory the first line of defense and it needs to be put in an auto mode safe from political start and stop signal no matter what the temp. on the LOC, inside Kashmir or at political levels till the problem is resolved.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Feb 2019 11:58

Now that my anger has reduced somewhat, I am of the firm belief that India must act in the most unpredictable and disproportionate way. Killing 10 for everyone of ours is proportional response. Let's kill a 100 for everyone one of ours.

Blow-up a bridge on Indus. The TSPA must be completely and utterly humiliated. This has to a regular and random occurance.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 18 Feb 2019 12:04

What a terrible couple of days we are having.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 18 Feb 2019 12:05

RIP brave 5 soldiers who lost their lives today. Om shanti.

The vermin Ajai Shooklaw is spreading anti-Modi venom as usual. I seriously think he has lost his bearing.

From his Twitter:

Three days after Pulwama, two "facts" and a question:

Fact 1: Pakistan Army and the ISI were behind the car-bomb attack.

Fact 2: Cross-border military retaliation by Modi cud win him an election that was otherwise doubtful.

Question: Is the ISI working to get Modi re-elected?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 18 Feb 2019 12:07

Lilo ji...the solutions u r suggesting will never work in a society like ours ( which is basically a pacifist society) and with libtards and leftists galore. Our hearts bleed the moment violence happens...maaf kar do..koi nahi koi nahi... what will work is hard blows to the vermin on our western border. we have forgiven our enemies even when we had them on the mat... and paid for it.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Feb 2019 12:09

A light touch surveillance can be implemented

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 18 Feb 2019 12:12

Two terrorists killed in pulwama..

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 18 Feb 2019 12:15

https://twitter.com/ashutitikshu/status ... 7551053824

After nearly 12 hours of gun battle, bodies of Abdul Rashid Ghazi or Kamran and Muddasir Ahmed are recovered. Official confirmation awaited. As many as 4 more terrorists are likely killed.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 18 Feb 2019 12:21

pankajs... quite bit of surveillance is happening in kashmir as we speak... but there is a limit what it can achieve in a society like ours.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Feb 2019 12:22

If anyone ever harbored doubts about kamal hassan,.................

Is this a prelude to asking for a plebiscite in TN or even eelam as a whole??

ANI Verified account @ANI

Makkal Needhi Maiam leader Kamal Hassan at an event in Chennai yesterday: Why India is not holding a plebiscite in Kashmir? What are they (Indian government) afraid of?

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 18 Feb 2019 12:23

Pulwama encounter: CRPF convoy attack mastermind Kamran alias Ghazi Rasheed killed

Kamran alias Ghazi Rasheed is the mastermind of the Pulwama terror attack which took place on February 14. He was cornered by security forces along with two more terrorists in a fresh encounter that started in the wee hours of Monday.
A joint team of Indian Army's 55 Rashtriya Rifles, CRPF and Special Operation Group launched a cordon in the wee hours on Monday.
A police officer told India Today TV that the cordon was laid in the area following credible inputs about the presence of some militants.

syam · Post by **syam** » 18 Feb 2019 12:24

I think Indian administration is very weak. It is not flexible enough to enforce any policy without dragging whole country with it. No wonder BIF forces made so many inroads into our country and became deciding factors when it comes to policy making.

Eff the sh*t. We all patriotic people need to buckle up and do long march from TN to Kashmir in million numbers and enforce the policy ourselves.

45 people died in last one week because of these stone pelters . Do we really have to tolerate them?

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 18 Feb 2019 12:25

Singha wrote:from the shaky video of burhan wani encounter, a ring of army troops was taking cover and firing into a grove of trees near a village ... but thing to note was a bare 50m away, a JK police type vehicle , with police using tear gas and lathis was keeping at bay a troop of militant stone throwing villagers trying to obstruct the siege and help the pigs escape.

this I am told is quite common. even after the pulwama blast there was stone throwing by locals at the other vehicles of the convoy which stopped and ran to help the blast victims.

see the whole video, the villagers are at 4:31 onward

Training simulation - not real .

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 18 Feb 2019 12:25

From Twitter....

abdul rashid ghaji is IED expert from Afghanistan who assembled the vbied. He was sent by JeM chief to avenge the killings of two of his nephews in the valley. For the last two days army has been trying to get him.

syam · Post by **syam** » 18 Feb 2019 12:29

manjgu wrote:Lilo ji...the solutions u r suggesting will never work in a society like ours ( which is basically a pacifist society) and with libtards and leftists galore. Our hearts bleed the moment violence happens...maaf kar do..koi nahi koi nahi... what will work is hard blows to the vermin on our western border. we have forgiven our enemies even when we had them on the mat... and paid for it.

Lefties and libtards constitutes only 5% of Indian population. At least 60% of our population is highly patriotic. We shouldn't care what this small 5% minority thinks.

We shouldn't maintain this old status quo of congress where the 5% opinion matters. We should come out of this mindset and start living in new India.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 18 Feb 2019 12:30

Nikhil T wrote:The vermin Ajai Shooklaw is spreading anti-Modi venom as usual. I seriously think he has lost his bearing.

Since he is anarmy main, I refrained from calling him names. But increasingly, he is becoming a pervert and a bloody traitor. No need to post, I watched another interview between him, 2 other pukes, Hapymon jacob, and Sid Varadarajan, along with some Paki, Moed Yosuf. Shukla was advocating 'talks' with TSP as were the other 2 ass holes. But the Paki was as usual in your face. He mocked and said India was living in fantasy if it thought it can isolate TSP. The triumphant look on that b@satrad's face in contrast to our pussies made me want to punch the scum bag.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 18 Feb 2019 12:34

Biggest problem I observed was blatant access to Porki media in this region. All shorts of Porki propaganda media should be blocked in that region, TV/Radio/Cell/etc etc.

Although our news will say 4 pigs killed, news in valley will propagate like soldiers killed 4 innocent toddlers.

Control the information flow, control the narrative, and create a media engagement unit to provide constructive picture. Current AHQ cell is under-equipped for social media engagement.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 18 Feb 2019 12:34

12 hours gun fight. Hmm, once bitten twice shy doesn't apply to us. we are those idiots who repeat same things expecting different outcome: winning minds and hearts that is. Even after bloodiest blast in decades, we are still engaging in half day long firefights with terrorists numbering 4 6 and stone pelters are back to their bread and better job. I think lord krishna will be making an arrangement to revisit us.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Feb 2019 12:44

I am increasingly getting convinced that the Pakistani establishment has just comitted another Godhra. The response will make them remember that it is the Indian public they have provoked.

They are not going to get any mercy.

Modi is blessed that he is held to such high standards by the Indian public.

Pakistan is cursed that Indian PM is Modi.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 18 Feb 2019 12:49

ramana wrote:Rohan1424 banned for trolling

Ramana, I can understand posters having soft corner for BJP. But people have died and I would not let the PM no matter how much I like him go off the hook and not answer tough questions.

When people search this forum on internet and sign up they sign up for indian defense forum which then realized happens to be having majority BJP supporters. I doubt new joiners search BJP forums on the net and stuble upon BRF which happens to be also a defense forum. Are we going to weed out posters who are not BJP supporters, or want to ask tough questions to BJP?

Anyway, this is a private forum and you make the rules. I just wanted to put across my thoughts.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 Feb 2019 12:53

Singha wrote:from the shaky video of burhan wani encounter, a ring of army troops was taking cover and firing into a grove of trees near a village ... but thing to note was a bare 50m away, a JK police type vehicle , with police using tear gas and lathis was keeping at bay a troop of militant stone throwing villagers trying to obstruct the siege and help the pigs escape.

this I am told is quite common. even after the pulwama blast there was stone throwing by locals at the other vehicles of the convoy which stopped and ran to help the blast victims.

see the whole video, the villagers are at 4:31 onward

WTH

a handful of pelters are causing do much trouble? Dayyum man didn't the police have any other long range noon lethal weapons.... Shot guns with bird shot comes to mind?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Feb 2019 12:54

Amber G. wrote:From a few MSM news in US:

Pakistan's flag is Google's top result for 'the best toilet paper in the world.' Here's why (they mention Pulwama)
If you’re searching Google for “the best toilet paper in the world,” you won’t come across Charmin or Angel Soft.

The top result: the green and white national flag of Pakistan.

Why? It’s likely backlash following a Valentine’s Day terror bombing in India’s Pulwama district of Kashmir

ma'am Amber G., this is completely unimportant. any flag, including massa one, can be made to come up on the top if Google wished it so. their page rank algorithm has bcome completely opaque.