Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

nam
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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby nam » 25 Feb 2019 23:01

Karthik S wrote:What will IA be doing driving tanks in such urban areas of pak?


Well.. for one Masood and his chelas will definitely not be sitting in villages.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Haridas » 25 Feb 2019 23:02

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Please spare me. Don’t think if India doesn’t retaliate that Mumbai and Delhi will not be hit. Finishing this now as opposed to later is far more preferable. If you don’t like this talk then go hold candles at the border and continue to mourn the deaths of Indians in the future.

+1008
You spoke my mind.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Haridas » 25 Feb 2019 23:04

Arun.prabhu wrote:If they initiate a nuclear exchange, walk our nuclear arsenal up the Punjab valley, making sure to contaminate their precious rivers - modern equivalent of salting the ground that the Romans did in Carthage. But to initiate an exchange? Cannot be allowed to happen.

yensoy wrote:Nuclear annihilation is not worth it unless we take down Paki's four fathers along with them.


Radioactive contamination is over hyped. Please read more.
Hiroshima was contaminated for how many weeks?

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Karthik S » 25 Feb 2019 23:07

nam wrote:
Karthik S wrote:What will IA be doing driving tanks in such urban areas of pak?


Well.. for one Masood and his chelas will definitely not be sitting in villages.


Well I for one wouldn't want a house to house checking by our troops for masood. We need to take him out how US took out zarqawi.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Shanmukh » 25 Feb 2019 23:09

@Ramana,
Thanks for starting this thread. I am going to focus on one major point of this potential war - the war aims and objectives. The most important point which we need to answer is - what is our objective? What exactly do we want to achieve from the war? What is the final result we desire to see when the dust settles down after the battle/war? When we have well-defined objectives, we can chart out the battle plans, stretegies, tactics, etc. I will put together the set of possible objectives that we can have.

Here, I am making one assumption. I hope no one here even believes that Pakistan is going to stop terrorism as long as it can exist? This is NOT going to happen. Period. End of story. The only way to achieve this is to wipe out Pakistan entirely and that is beyond our means at the moment, except by ensuring our own destruction too. Consequently, ending terrorism is not a possible goal to be achieved. As long as Pakistan exists, Pakistan is going to sustain terrorism against India. That is their goal. Without that goal - inflicting damage on the Kufr, Pakistan has no reason to exist. So what are our goals?

a) Teach Pakistan a lesson in an one off attack.
This is possible. Humiliate Pakistan by killing some terrorists, bombing terrorist camps, maybe even a Azhar Masood, Dawood Ibrahim, or Hafeez Saeed, etc. If we have actionable intelligence - and this is quite possible now - we may be able to off one of these swine. If we hit some terrorist bases or even take out one of the big fish, what is going to be the result?
i) Pakistan will deny that we got the terrorist mastermind or even the terrorist bases.
ii) Pakistan will try to replace the dead terrorists. Replacing the terrorist infrastructure and low level terrorists may not be hard, but if we get a Hafeez Saeed or Dawood Bhai, they will suffer some short term damage, until another can evolve [with ISI help, of course] from within the terrorist ranks to take his place.
iii) Also, it may put the fear of God in those terrorists. It is one thing to send idiots to blow themselves up along with the Kufr, but they are not bargaining on being vapourised by the kufr in their own homes.
iv) Pakistan will try to get some mileage by claiming we bombed pet shops, kindergartens, schools, hospitals, etc, but given its famed duplicity, no one will care much.
v) Will Pakistan retaliate? Not conventionally, especially if we announce that we have achieved our objective and are not going attack any more. It is hard for them to go to war if we are claiming that we offed Hafeez, or Dawood. They will only try to up the terrorist hits. Also, Pakistan will be under serious pressure from the West not to retaliate. The West may offer some economic goodies like loans, aid, etc not to retaliate.

b) Grab land in PoJK
Again, this is possible, I think. Let us look at the balance of forces in the PoJK region. What are our objectives? Let me divide this into three parts here.
1) Grab some border posts in Jammu region, or Neelam valley and permanently shift the line.
There are several border posts that are extremely isolated due to the irregular border and bad terrain. Rationalising our border by destroying their border posts and grabbing their land can be done, I think. What would be needed in terms of manpower and firepower? And what region would we focus on? This is something that the military experts should tell us. And what would be the duration of the conflict? What will be Pakistan's reaction? They will try to counter us in PoJK with their armed power, and possibly more terrorist attacks on India, but they wouldn't widen the sphere of conflict, if for no other reason than that they cannot do so without suffering from the inferiority of their forces stretched on a long border. They will yell to US, China, Gulf, etc to pressurise us to stop. But, all in all, this is a case of winners keepers, so we should be able to take a few border posts and grab some territory.

2) Change the LoC in the Gilgit Baltistan
In the murky areas of the Siachen, we can probably shift the border a bit more. We are now sitting on top of the glacier. Shoving the Pakistanis off their heights is probably possible. But is it feasible at this time of the year? What would be the manpower and firepower required there? And also, in the Gilgit-Baltistan reqion, how will China react if we start shifting the border? Can they do anything at this time of the year?

3) Grab serious territory in PoJK
Is this possible? Can we regain Chhamb [which Pakistan was supposed to vacate in 1965 in exchange for Haji Pir, but never did]. Other more serious attacks would include Haji Pir, Muzaffarabad, Bhimber, Kishenganga valley [which includes Sharada Peetha], etc, but this will require a very serious effort. I frankly do not think that the Indian government [any Indian government] has the will to change border lands on this scale.

c) Grab land in other areas of Pakistan.
This would be an extremely serious escalation. Trying to grab even Kartarpur or Hindu regions of Tharparkar [which we can easily keep] in Sindh are possible technically, but again, it would require a massive effort to do that. It would also come in for extreme condemnation from other powers. We are grabbing lands which we have not claimed till now. I don't think this is possible.

d) Support the Baluchis, Pakhtuns, Sindhis, etc in their quest to become free of Pakistan.
We can do this on a larger scale than the mealy mouthed bits we are now doing and start causing the Pakistanis serious embarrassment, but this is a slow process. It is not going to yield fruit in a short time. Also, remember, creating Bangladesh ruined the demography of our NE. We do not have a plan in place for the fallout of such a move. If 20 million Pakistanis move into Gujarat, Rajasthan or even Punjab, due to disturbed conditions in Pakistan, do we have the wherewithal to deal with that mess? And it is not clear to me that the Sindhis, Baluchis, or Pakhtoons are going to be less Jihadi than the Pakistanis today are.

e) War with Pakistan to degrade their military capabilities
Taking out significant chunks of their expensive, non-nuclear toys. Taking out chunks of their navy? Taking out their F16s? This is a purely military goal and I am not the best person to suggest what toys of their sshould be targeted. How feasible is this goal?

f) All out war with Pakistan.
We can rule this one out, unless it happens by accident.

Mods: Not sure if this belongs here [if not, please feel free to move to appropriate thread].
Last edited by Shanmukh on 25 Feb 2019 23:15, edited 1 time in total.

nam
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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby nam » 25 Feb 2019 23:10

Fighting in urban/ rural would depends what our objective will be. Punish PA or look out for JEM/LET characters

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2019 23:12

Great post Shanmukh. Level headed and well organized.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Feb 2019 23:13

Arun.prabhu wrote:Madness. You're okay with destroying millennia of history and possibly our entire culture because a madman fanatic killed 40 fellow citizens? Wow!

Hopefully, no one in command authority is this fanatical. There is no difference between the raghead dimwits and us if they are.

darshhan wrote:
The question is irrelevant now. I did an informal survey amongst my friends, acquainted and relatives. Almost 90% are ready to die in a nuclear war, provided Pakistan is punished and eventually destroyed. I am ready to bet this is true for most of the country too. In fact I make it a point to ask the same question to almost every one I am meeting these days. And invariably I am getting the same distance.Gone are the days when Pakis could commit massacres like 26/11 without repercussions. The generation has changed. Even Late Bharat Verma had predicted this.

I myself might not be alive after nuclear war. My property worth Crores will definitely be destroyed but I am totally ok with it. I guess this is the best part of being a hindu. For us the physical body is just a vehicle or a chariot which is transporting the atman to its next destination. All that Nuclear bomb can do is to destroy this physical body. Our atman will still be there. So what is the fuss? The sooner the merrier.

I'm assuming this post was referring to darshan Saabs post and not mine which was just above it?

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Karthik S » 25 Feb 2019 23:15

My scenario, objective is destroy paki military as much as possible, take back PoK, I don't know how much azadi fight is going in NWFP, sindh. We all know about Baluchistan. We must try to split pak again. Icing on cake, push IB few KMs into pak (even 2 3 kms).

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 25 Feb 2019 23:16

Of course. Apologies if you had thought that I’d directed my comment at you.

Cain Marko wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:Madness. You're okay with destroying millennia of history and possibly our entire culture because a madman fanatic killed 40 fellow citizens? Wow!

Hopefully, no one in command authority is this fanatical. There is no difference between the raghead dimwits and us if they are.


I'm assuming this post was referring to darshan Saabs post and not mine which was just above it?

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 25 Feb 2019 23:21

I think you missed one. Go after the families of jihadis. Identify a few and then arrange accidents. Identify a few more and then arrange a few more accidents. As infinitum.

Shanmukh wrote:@Ramana,
Thanks for starting this thread. I am going to focus on one major point of this potential war - the war aims and objectives. The most important point which we need to answer is - what is our objective? What exactly do we want to achieve from the war? What is the final result we desire to see when the dust settles down after the battle/war? When we have well-defined objectives, we can chart out the battle plans, stretegies, tactics, etc. I will put together the set of possible objectives that we can have.

Here, I am making one assumption. I hope no one here even believes that Pakistan is going to stop terrorism as long as it can exist? This is NOT going to happen. Period. End of story. The only way to achieve this is to wipe out Pakistan entirely and that is beyond our means at the moment, except by ensuring our own destruction too. Consequently, ending terrorism is not a possible goal to be achieved. As long as Pakistan exists, Pakistan is going to sustain terrorism against India. That is their goal. Without that goal - inflicting damage on the Kufr, Pakistan has no reason to exist. So what are our goals?

a) Teach Pakistan a lesson in an one off attack.
This is possible. Humiliate Pakistan by killing some terrorists, bombing terrorist camps, maybe even a Azhar Masood, Dawood Ibrahim, or Hafeez Saeed, etc. If we have actionable intelligence - and this is quite possible now - we may be able to off one of these swine. If we hit some terrorist bases or even take out one of the big fish, what is going to be the result?
i) Pakistan will deny that we got the terrorist mastermind or even the terrorist bases.
ii) Pakistan will try to replace the dead terrorists. Replacing the terrorist infrastructure and low level terrorists may not be hard, but if we get a Hafeez Saeed or Dawood Bhai, they will suffer some short term damage, until another can evolve [with ISI help, of course] from within the terrorist ranks to take his place.
iii) Also, it may put the fear of God in those terrorists. It is one thing to send idiots to blow themselves up along with the Kufr, but they are not bargaining on being vapourised by the kufr in their own homes.
iv) Pakistan will try to get some mileage by claiming we bombed pet shops, kindergartens, schools, hospitals, etc, but given its famed duplicity, no one will care much.
v) Will Pakistan retaliate? Not conventionally, especially if we announce that we have achieved our objective and are not going attack any more. It is hard for them to go to war if we are claiming that we offed Hafeez, or Dawood. They will only try to up the terrorist hits. Also, Pakistan will be under serious pressure from the West not to retaliate. The West may offer some economic goodies like loans, aid, etc not to retaliate.

b) Grab land in PoJK
Again, this is possible, I think. Let us look at the balance of forces in the PoJK region. What are our objectives? Let me divide this into three parts here.
1) Grab some border posts in Jammu region, or Neelam valley and permanently shift the line.
There are several border posts that are extremely isolated due to the irregular border and bad terrain. Rationalising our border by destroying their border posts and grabbing their land can be done, I think. What would be needed in terms of manpower and firepower? And what region would we focus on? This is something that the military experts should tell us. And what would be the duration of the conflict? What will be Pakistan's reaction? They will try to counter us in PoJK with their armed power, and possibly more terrorist attacks on India, but they wouldn't widen the sphere of conflict, if for no other reason than that they cannot do so without suffering from the inferiority of their forces stretched on a long border. They will yell to US, China, Gulf, etc to pressurise us to stop. But, all in all, this is a case of winners keepers, so we should be able to take a few border posts and grab some territory.

2) Change the LoC in the Gilgit Baltistan
In the murky areas of the Siachen, we can probably shift the border a bit more. We are now sitting on top of the glacier. Shoving the Pakistanis off their heights is probably possible. But is it feasible at this time of the year? What would be the manpower and firepower required there? And also, in the Gilgit-Baltistan reqion, how will China react if we start shifting the border? Can they do anything at this time of the year?

3) Grab serious territory in PoJK
Is this possible? Can we regain Chhamb [which Pakistan was supposed to vacate in 1965 in exchange for Haji Pir, but never did]. Other more serious attacks would include Haji Pir, Muzaffarabad, Bhimber, Kishenganga valley [which includes Sharada Peetha], etc, but this will require a very serious effort. I frankly do not think that the Indian government [any Indian government] has the will to change border lands on this scale.

c) Grab land in other areas of Pakistan.
This would be an extremely serious escalation. Trying to grab even Kartarpur or Hindu regions of Tharparkar [which we can easily keep] in Sindh are possible technically, but again, it would require a massive effort to do that. It would also come in for extreme condemnation from other powers. We are grabbing lands which we have not claimed till now. I don't think this is possible.

d) Support the Baluchis, Pakhtuns, Sindhis, etc in their quest to become free of Pakistan.
We can do this on a larger scale than the mealy mouthed bits we are now doing and start causing the Pakistanis serious embarrassment, but this is a slow process. It is not going to yield fruit in a short time. Also, remember, creating Bangladesh ruined the demography of our NE. We do not have a plan in place for the fallout of such a move. If 20 million Pakistanis move into Gujarat, Rajasthan or even Punjab, due to disturbed conditions in Pakistan, do we have the wherewithal to deal with that mess? And it is not clear to me that the Sindhis, Baluchis, or Pakhtoons are going to be less Jihadi than the Pakistanis today are.

e) War with Pakistan to degrade their military capabilities
Taking out significant chunks of their expensive, non-nuclear toys. Taking out chunks of their navy? Taking out their F16s? This is a purely military goal and I am not the best person to suggest what toys of their sshould be targeted. How feasible is this goal?

f) All out war with Pakistan.
We can rule this one out, unless it happens by accident.

Mods: Not sure if this belongs here [if not, please feel free to move to appropriate thread].

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Feb 2019 23:22

yensoy wrote:Nuclear annihilation is not worth it unless we take down Paki's four fathers along with them.

This. See no point in letting China and the current establishment in row having the last laugh.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 25 Feb 2019 23:23

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were airbursts. A ground burst is another matter. Lots of hot isotopes.

Haridas wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:If they initiate a nuclear exchange, walk our nuclear arsenal up the Punjab valley, making sure to contaminate their precious rivers - modern equivalent of salting the ground that the Romans did in Carthage. But to initiate an exchange? Cannot be allowed to happen.



Radioactive contamination is over hyped. Please read more.
Hiroshima was contaminated for how many weeks?
Last edited by Arun.prabhu on 25 Feb 2019 23:33, edited 1 time in total.

nam
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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby nam » 25 Feb 2019 23:23

Karthik S wrote:My scenario, objective is destroy paki military as much as possible, take back PoK, I don't know how much azadi fight is going in NWFP, sindh. We all know about Baluchistan. We must try to split pak again. Icing on cake, push IB few KMs into pak (even 2 3 kms).


PA destruction is fine, however taking back PoK is not a useful objective. The best we can gain is access to a failed state Afghanistan.

In return we will have more people, who have faced our artillery for decades and don't like us. Demography of J&K titled even more..

A more intense insurgency, all the LoC defense set up with decades of hard work and blood will be need to be replicated on Pak-PoK border..

Really not worth it. Let them stay under PA boots.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Feb 2019 23:26

Karthik S wrote:My scenario, objective is destroy paki military as much as possible, take back PoK, I don't know how much azadi fight is going in NWFP, sindh. We all know about Baluchistan. We must try to split pak again. Icing on cake, push IB few KMs into pak (even 2 3 kms).

I think this will happen in any case give or take a few years. Especially with some encouragement on our part. First order of things is to take control of Kashmir valley and fixing these good for nothing Stone pelters and their ilk. Article 3x has to go.

And forces should do a public jhapad soon. Take out something visible and rub their noses in it.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Feb 2019 23:30

I think taking out a PN ship with a nice brahmos hit followed by some aerial footage will do the trick. Easy pickings, clean and explosive.

We can always say that the ship had evil designs ala 2008 so we took it out.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 25 Feb 2019 23:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 25 Feb 2019 23:30

If we initiate a nuclear exchange, we’ll become an international pariah even assuming we come through mostly unscathed. Worse yet, it’d be invitation for China to go nuclear arms free on us. There is even a risk that Uncle Sam will backslide on the current bonhomie and bomb our infrastructure back into the Stone Age. Their progressive democrat wing is made of jihadi and China loving lunatics. They’d scream for it likely.

Cain Marko wrote:
yensoy wrote:Nuclear annihilation is not worth it unless we take down Paki's four fathers along with them.

This. See no point in letting China and the current establishment in row having the last laugh.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Karthik S » 25 Feb 2019 23:37

Dude Arun, you've been dhoti shivering on this thread past pages. Last week we were discussion SSBNs, go look that thread. No country will take advantage of a war between us and pak and nuke us, a country with 2 or 3 SSBNs. It didn't happen even in 71, it won't happen now.
You made your point regarding nukes. Give it a rest.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Shivaji » 25 Feb 2019 23:41

With Modiji already in election mode as evident from NWM speech and other flurry of speeches, I am not sure objective is going to be to "aar-par ki ladai".

In my opinion, objective would be:
1) Terrorist leadership or at-least infrastructure shall be destroyed
2) PA/ISI or other arms shall be punished to avenge Pulwama attack - count of bodies matters here
3) Do this in full public view i.e. overt use of force
4) Emphasise that any attack henceforth by either uniformed or non-uniformed Pakis would be considered as attack by state actors and punished accordingly.
5) Call out nuclear bluff

There may not be any permanent occupation of posts / land in PoK in round 1. Round 2 response would be in proportion to Pakis reaction.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 25 Feb 2019 23:45

It cuts off one axis of Chinese encroachment into the Indian Ocean. It ****** up tens of billions of Chinese investment in OBOR infrastructure inside Pakistan. It gives us land access to Afghanistan and the trillion dollar deposits of rare earth minerals. It Gives us logistical lines to materially support whomsoever afghani chief will once bought stay bought. It destroys Pakistan’s decades long strategy of controlling Afghanistan as a client state to achieve strategic depth viz-a-viz India. It gets us back our land and avenges the deaths of all Indian soldiers and civilians who died in the wars. It will allow our army to push the indigenous Muslim population out before us into Pakistani territory or Afghanistan, allowing us to repopulate the lands with our loyal mountain peoples from elsewhere. It removes a major secure rear area that the Kashmiri separatists use to relax, recuperate and train for their insurgency inside our borders. And it will allow us to drawdown our troops in Siachen, troops who suffer greatly to hold the glacier and among whom so many have perished to the god-awful weather...

Honestly, I cannot think of a downside here to capturing POK.

Edit: oh and missed this. It cuts off the umbilical cord (aka secure log lines) that pakistan’s Chinese sugar daddy can use to keep them supplied and which we cannot interdict. Going through the Indian Ocean during hostitiea to supply Pakistan will work out SO WELL!

nam wrote:
Karthik S wrote:My scenario, objective is destroy paki military as much as possible, take back PoK, I don't know how much azadi fight is going in NWFP, sindh. We all know about Baluchistan. We must try to split pak again. Icing on cake, push IB few KMs into pak (even 2 3 kms).


PA destruction is fine, however taking back PoK is not a useful objective. The best we can gain is access to a failed state Afghanistan.

In return we will have more people, who have faced our artillery for decades and don't like us. Demography of J&K titled even more..

A more intense insurgency, all the LoC defense set up with decades of hard work and blood will be need to be replicated on Pak-PoK border..

Really not worth it. Let them stay under PA boots.
Last edited by Arun.prabhu on 25 Feb 2019 23:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 25 Feb 2019 23:46

Edit: okay, the below response is snide. My apologies. The point I’m trying to make it, there were extenuating circumstances in 71 and we don’t have a complete nuclear triad yet with at least one SSBN armed with a dozen or so long range nuclear tipped missiles on cruise at any given time.

Original post:

Forgot that Soviet Union sent in their nuclear armed fleet into the Indian Ocean and that prevented escalation, did we? Or that our nuclear triad isn’t complete and that Arihant isn’t carrying nuclear tipped missiles, have we?

Karthik S wrote:Dude Arun, you've been dhoti shivering on this thread past pages. Last week we were discussion SSBNs, go look that thread. No country will take advantage of a war between us and pak and nuke us, a country with 2 or 3 SSBNs. It didn't happen even in 71, it won't happen now.
You made your point regarding nukes. Give it a rest.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Karthik S » 25 Feb 2019 23:50

nam wrote:
Karthik S wrote:My scenario, objective is destroy paki military as much as possible, take back PoK, I don't know how much azadi fight is going in NWFP, sindh. We all know about Baluchistan. We must try to split pak again. Icing on cake, push IB few KMs into pak (even 2 3 kms).


PA destruction is fine, however taking back PoK is not a useful objective. The best we can gain is access to a failed state Afghanistan.

In return we will have more people, who have faced our artillery for decades and don't like us. Demography of J&K titled even more..

A more intense insurgency, all the LoC defense set up with decades of hard work and blood will be need to be replicated on Pak-PoK border..

Really not worth it. Let them stay under PA boots.


What's population of GB? Less than 2 million. And for that we will get our land back, an area roughly equal to the size of Scotland.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby nam » 25 Feb 2019 23:54

Arun.prabhu wrote:Honestly, I cannot think of a downside here to capturing POK.


The insurgents will simply come from Pak, instead through PoK like they do now.

Let us not be delusional to think that Pak will stop, if we capture PoK. It will just bring back the intensity of 90s. And it has enough cannon fodder.

Regarding knocking off Chinese CPEC, carry out standoff air strikes regularly on Karakorram highway. Why sacrifice our jawans in a never ending insurgency.
Last edited by nam on 25 Feb 2019 23:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby AshishAcharya » 25 Feb 2019 23:55

While we debate on how to punish Pakistan, Paki aam abduls are doing their bit for the jihadi cause. This guy from Twitter seems to have found out about our heavy guns installations at LOC using a open source nasa tool known as zoom earth. I don't know how true they are but we must take it seriously nevertheless. And more importantly This assumes significance as Pakistan defense command tweeted about the same. I can't link the tweet because their account in India is withheld. And
Here is a link to the tweet which mentions the so called Indian escalation at LOC
https://mobile.twitter.com/Homesecpak/s ... 0584753153
Another one-
https://mobile.twitter.com/Homesecpak/s ... 2761063425

Here's the link to the tool he used
https://zoom.earth

Again I will repeat I don't know how true they are.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby ramana » 26 Feb 2019 00:01

Singha, Which part of my post you did not get? I said document Pak ?
Next time listen and read or vice versa.
Too clever for own good.

As your senior have right to scold you.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 26 Feb 2019 00:06

I did state that it will remove a major secure area and not the only secure area. They are welcome to come through the existing border elsewhere in Punjab, Rajasthan or Gujarat.. Easier terrain for our jawans to patrol and guard and most important of all, the populations on the border will be entirely sympathetic to our brave soldiers. Let the jihadi rats try to hide and move through a population that hates their guts and would see them dead and see how much longer their vaunted insurgency survives.

I’m not sure we have the airlift capacity to close down Karakoram and make sure it stays closed in war. The flyboys would have us all believe that they’ll win the war from the air, but how easily did we fool NSA and CIA during the lead up to Pokhran? How well did the American bombing of vietcong’s supply lines work in the Vietnam war? Of course, my example of vietcong’s supply lines isn’t an exact match - the terrain and the difficulties are oh so very different - but it is, I think, proof enough that bombing from the air does not work unless you can bomb 24x7.


nam wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:Honestly, I cannot think of a downside here to capturing POK.


The insurgents will simply come from Pak, instead through PoK like they do now.

Let us not be delusional to think that Pak will stop, if we capture PoK. It will just bring back the intensity of 90s. And it has enough cannon fodder.

Regarding knocking off Chinese CPEC, carry out standoff air strikes regularly on Karakorram highway. Why sacrifice our jawans in a never ending insurgency.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby ramana » 26 Feb 2019 00:08

manjgu wrote:equipment inducted on such a short notice is not easily used..spares..training..maintenance procedures etc etc..only some basic equipment can be used immediately .. if the ballon does go up..its not going to last more than 5 to 6 days



manjgu, WRT TSP its a condom not a balloon.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby nam » 26 Feb 2019 00:08

By the way, Pak AWaCS flights go with their transponder switched on. So you will be able to track them on Flightradar.

Few days back, one of the ZDK, was howering around Gawdar. If you guys can keep an eye on the flights in Pakland and notice any flight going in circle.. you have something interesting.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Singha » 26 Feb 2019 00:09

ships etc will disappear in a few hours and make an attempt to escape to saudi and uae ports where we cannot fire.

but HIT taxila, OFB wah and a host of other strategic armaments factories are well within reach. attacks on them cannot be hidden from public.

idea should be regress TSPian economy by 15-20 years. put them into a deep recession and hand to mouth governance. shrunk pie will lead to capital flight by the elites and jihadi tanzeems at each others throats

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby ramana » 26 Feb 2019 00:09

Karan M wrote:Guys, please dont ask leading questions about current Indian eqpt especially latest kit. Pak stuff is fine.


Exactly. Next one gets banned.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby nam » 26 Feb 2019 00:10

For CPEC, you knock off the bridges or cause land slides using CM strikes. Repeat it regularly.

The road will become useless.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 26 Feb 2019 00:13

Vietcong was supplied by human trains. The afghani insurgency against Russia and USA was sustained through donkey trains. If we really want to cut off the line and not strangle it, which effectiveness our aerial surveillance assets may not able to accurately assess given paki/Chinese efforts to hide or exaggerate damages, holding the pass is the only sure thing.

nam wrote:For CPEC, you knock off the bridges or cause land slides using CM strikes. Repeat it regularly.

The road will become useless.
Last edited by Arun.prabhu on 26 Feb 2019 00:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 26 Feb 2019 00:15

Maybe you want to delete this post? Could be tactically significant if the Pakistanis have overlooked it.
nam wrote:... Flightradar...

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby nam » 26 Feb 2019 00:22

Arun.prabhu wrote:Maybe you want to delete this post? Could be tactically significant if the Pakistanis have overlooked it.
nam wrote:... Flightradar...


In peace time big planes fly with their transponder on. Otherwise ATC will be consider it un-identified and there will be response.

From our perspective, it will be monitored from ground radars or airborne radars anyways.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby ramana » 26 Feb 2019 00:23

Arun.prabhu, This thread was not to bring in nuke bogey and get scared.
Please don't post anymore here.
You are welcome to open a thread on that. But not here.

And consider this as warning whatnot.
ramana

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 26 Feb 2019 00:26

Oh, I get it is SOP in peacetime. But remember how Russia didn’t realise that Uncle Sam could send his nuclear bombers over the North Pole and have them show up completely unannounced on the skies of Moscow? Sometimes, people and organizations forget the most obvious things because they are so obvious.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby Arun.prabhu » 26 Feb 2019 00:27

Ramana, logic and sanity is acting scared? Okay...

ramana wrote:Arun.prabhu, This thread was not to bring in nuke bogey and get scared.
Please don't post anymore here.
You are welcome to open a thread on that. But not here.

And consider this as warning whatnot.
ramana

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Feb 2019 00:30

^^ramana guru,
I wonder by discussing are we opening up our thought process. Most of BRFites have military bent and a peep into that gives an overview to porkies what military planners might be thinking. While they may already have all the information, it still gives them a one place to go and makes their job easy. We dont know that how capable that guy is and even if he's capable it still saves him some time and effort of looking at just one thread.
WIthout mentioning much details, do you remember one exercise where I asked that's interesting and do we really need that exercise for the stated purpose and you mentioned the purpose wont be lost on those that might be affected in future. Time might be coming for that. We may have our own version of Ardennes traverse

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby pankajs » 26 Feb 2019 00:33

GOI is not planning a "aar paar ki ladai" i.e No fight to the finish hence the Nukes don't come into picture. No one reaches for nukes when they still have options because nukes are usually the last act.

Even if India re-takes POK, it will be a grave setback for bakistan & TSPA for sure BUT not a death blow. They can still *hope* to bleed India by 1000 cuts.

Indian action is most likely to be *calibrated* payback with interest.
Last edited by pankajs on 26 Feb 2019 00:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Upcoming India-Pakistan War - Force Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Feb 2019 00:35

Arun.prabhu wrote:Oh, I get it is SOP in peacetime. But remember how Russia didn’t realise that Uncle Sam could send his nuclear bombers over the North Pole and have them show up completely unannounced on the skies of Moscow? Sometimes, people and organizations forget the most obvious things because they are so obvious.

IMHO, that was we wont be able to have any discussion on war. The thread has a limited scope basis and the scope is the title of thread: Viz. Forces, Balances, Strategy, Tactics, etc.. What you are saying is not wrong but less suitable for the objective of the thread. I had opened a separate thread few days back on the endgame of pakistan. It may fit in over there. In the cost header, but feel free to post in another thread. AFAIK, ramana is not stopping you from putting your point, but keeping the discussion focussed. You're always welcome to put your point under the forum guidelines (link doesnt work yet)


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