MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

[Austin]

I am following CAATSA sanction story and I am betting they wont sanction us because its more loss of them then us , not just weapons sale but also strategic relations , Even Turkey they are threatning with no sale for F-35 for S-400 purchase but lets see where this goes.

Rafale has a background , What I suggested is a direct purchase from US like we did for P-8I etc and dont say that P-8I non availability or C-17/C-130 non-availability wont matter , Infact P-8I is the only asset we have now in terms of long range survellence , So that argument of not being sword arm etc does not hold true.

F-21 TOT I am expecting is atleast at MKI level if possible better , i.e built from indiginous component , local manuf , MRO/Repair facility of Engine , etc ...... F-16 is a dated but a good design and they dont have any other customers

TOT value exisit in that you dont have to Run to OEM for every thing , Check out the Local Industry /SME that MKI program is supporting .....TOT is there to maintain and repair/upgrade the aircraft we bought.

[Austin]

MiG Corporation makes a strong pitch for its flagship

http://forceindia.net/weighty-matter/

The tone for the MiG-35 presentation was set by CEO RAC MiG, Ilya Tarasenko. When asked the difference between buying Rafale and MiG-35, he said, “There is a technical decision and an economic decision. Once that is made, MiG-35 presents the better option.” He could have added another reason: Russia brings the political heft that India needs in times of unsure relations with China.

The presentation was given by deputy director general, MiG Corporation, Victor Chernov. The message he gave was that MiG-35 is an entirely new aircraft which can cost-effectively meet all operational needs and maintenance parameters with minimal Aircraft on Ground (AOG) situation. Backing his claim by statistics, he said that the airframe had up to 80 per cent composites which will ensure less weight of aircraft, increased payload and minimal signature.

The engine, RD MK, will provide 12 per cent more thrust which will ensure 2000km speed at high altitude and 1,450km at normal altitude. The AESA radar would have capability to detect 30 targets at 200km, and could shoot six aerial targets and four ground/ sea targets simultaneously. The aircraft with eight hard points can carry six tons combat load, and is provided with refuelling pods to fly 2,000km with drop tanks and 900km without them.

The engine life is 4,000 hours while airframe life is 6000 hours. Moreover, the aircraft has fly-by-wire for redundancy. In short, according to Chernov, MiG-35 meets all Make in India requirements.

[Austin]

Rakesh my point was wheather like F-21 or Gripen or Mig-35 or others in the race , IAF knows clearly what it wants and goes to the extent of fudging the entire RFP/Test exercise to get what it wants.

So to cut short 5-6 years that goes into this which any way has been done before and is not a useful exercise , It is better that we go for a G2G deal for the next type .....does not matter what it is in the end they all are good it depends what IAF wants

[Rakesh]

I am following CAATSA sanction story and I am betting they wont sanction us because its more loss of them then us , not just weapons sale but also strategic relations , Even Turkey they are threatening with no sale for F-35 for S-400 purchase but lets see where this goes.

The issue is not whether they sanction India or not. The issue is why are we having a discussion about sanctions in the first place? Supposedly we are America's strategic partner vis-a-viv China! And what is the reason exactly for the delay in issuing the CAATSA waiver? I think you and I both know the answer to that question. And even if the waiver comes, I would love to know the explanation for why it took so long.

Even with Turkey, what does that tell you? America will sanction their own allies, if that serves their geopolitical interests. At the end of the day, CAATSA is meant to punish Russia for meddling in the 2016 US Presidential elections. What has that got to do with India, Turkey or whoever else? Other countries have to take the blame for their incompetence in running a Presidential Election?

Rafale has a background , What I suggested is a direct purchase from US like we did for P-8I etc and don't say that P-8I non availability or C-17/C-130 non-availability wont matter , In fact P-8I is the only asset we have now in terms of long range surveillance , So that argument of not being sword arm etc does not hold true.

When did I say that the availability of those platforms will not matter? From a logistics perspective, it will hurt. But what do you do if 110 of your state-of-the-art fighters are sitting in their hangars? You don't go riding into the Kentucky Derby with your prized stallions in the stable. You never ever leave your tip-of-the-spear offensive capability into the hands of the Americans. Despite all assurances prior to contract signing, they will have India in a bind after that.

The P-8I conducts long range surveillance Austin. The P-8I does not conduct deep penetration into enemy airspace. Her offensive stores of anti-ship missiles, torpedoes, mines are released over international waters if & when required. They are entirely two different missions Austin. Penetrating a country's airspace with military aircraft is an act of war. Sending a P-8I to fly over international waters is NOT.

F-21 TOT I am expecting is at least at MKI level if possible better , i.e built from indigenous component, local manuf, MRO/Repair facility of engine, etc ...... F-16 is a dated but a good design and they don't have any other customers.

Okay, so you want an MKI level of ToT?

You said "build from indigenous components" so now I am going to hold you to this. Please answer the following;

1) Will India be allowed to build the F110-GE-132 turbofan from indigenous components? So give us the single crystal blade know-how to do this and we will build the engine from indigenous components. And give us the entire know-how of building this engine from start to finish. We will pay the royalty fee to GE for every engine produced.

2) Will India be allowed to build the AN/APG-83 Scalable Agile Beam Radar from indigenous components? So give us a GaN foundry and we will start producing SABR radars in India from indigenous components. Give us the entire gamut of knowledge of building this radar from start to finish. We will pay the royalty fee to Raytheon for every radar produced.

HAL has done local manufacturing of Jaguar, Hawk, MiG-21, MiG-27, Su-30MKI, etc, etc, etc. What has that done for HAL exactly?

F-16 is a dated but a good design and they don't have any other customers.

And how exactly is that India's problem?

TOT value exist in that you don't have to Run to OEM for every thing , Check out the Local Industry /SME that MKI program is supporting .....TOT is there to maintain and repair/upgrade the aircraft we bought.

1) We are running to Sukhoi right now for the Super Sukhoi upgrade.
2) The IAF wants to incorporate the ASRAAM across the combat air fleet, of which the Su-30MKI will also be a candidate. To get access to the radar, we will have to run back to Sukhoi onlee. Already rumours are floating that Sukhoi may not give the access. Good luck then!
3) For the additional Sukhoi air frames that are in process right now, we have to run back again to...you guessed it!!...Sukhoi.

Local industry/SME that supports the MKI only happens after Mother Russia gives the nod. Nothing happens without Sukhoi's nod.

Rakesh my point was wheather like F-21 or Gripen or Mig-35 or others in the race , IAF knows clearly what it wants and goes to the extent of fudging the entire RFP/Test exercise to get what it wants.

So to cut short 5-6 years that goes into this which any way has been done before and is not a useful exercise , It is better that we go for a G2G deal for the next type .....does not matter what it is in the end they all are good it depends what IAF wants.

It is indeed best to go for a G2G deal for the Rafale onlee. Investment has been made already. But that will not happen. We will waste the next 5 years and more pilots will die in unnecessary crashes. To take anything else other than the Rafale is counterproductive. And to take a fighter platform from the unreliable Yanks, is a recipe for disaster for India. Even the Indian Air Force said so in the CAG report.

[brar_w]

F-16 is a dated but a good design and they don't have any other customers.

As Rakesh rightly said this isn't India's concern, nor frankly is it of the US Government. Lockheed has had enough success with the F-16V that it is soon going to be re-starting production in South Carolina to meet the orders it already has on its books. Once it starts the production it will likely gain a few more sales. Profits from that program are not coming from selling new built aircraft as much as they are coming from selling upgrades. Hundreds of F-16V or V like upgrades have already been sold so I don't think anyone is feeling the pinch anywhere as one would be able to tell by looking at how the OEM is performing financially.

I don't think anyone in the US GOTUS takes the prospects of a US fighter in Indian colors very seriously. Other mil-mil and commercial cooperation will continue but I doubt they seriously think that the F-16 or F/A-18 stands much of a chance.

[Rakesh]

Austin, companies like Raytheon, General Electric, Lockheed Martin are not Mother Teresa's home for the Poor, Aged and Downtrodden.

These are 100% For-Profit organizations who have a direct responsibility to their shareholders. They are not going to hand out their intellectual property (IP) to India, no matter how much money is offered to them. This is their bread-and-butter business.

Handing this over to India on a silver platter, will create another competitor in the international market. And with that knowledge, we Indians will do it for waaaay cheaper. Who will want the American products at that point?

Already they have to deal with Rolls Royce, Snecma-Safran, Thales, Dassault, Airbus, Sukhoi, Mikoyan, etc, etc, etc. None of these companies are remotely interested in having yet another player in the international market.

[nachiket]

LM seems to have learnt from the Russians on how to package old wine in a new bottle - Rename it! F-21 my musharraf!

[Will]

Well with today’s shoot down of an F-16 , legacy it maybe, puts paid to LMs chances F-16 or F-21.

[brar_w]

The F-16/F-21 hardly had any chance to begin with and it is essentially a completely different aircraft when compared to what the PAF operates much like the MiG's shot down over the last two-three decades around the world have little in common with the advanced MiG-29's and MiG-35 being currently offered to the IAF.

[Rakesh]

Will, please this is NOT the time for this discussion. Thank You.

Temporarily closing this thread. Will reopen later.

--------

Added L8r: Thread Reopened.

[Bharadwaj]

The "21" reference is going to quite ironic when Lockheed meets IAF brass for presentations, tests, etc

[sanjaykumar]

It is clear, MiG 21 wins the competition for new MMRCA.

[ArjunPandit]

If I was in IAF/MoD, and a LM guy comes to me to sell F21, I would have said, nice joke or at best would have smiled throughout his presentation and left without a comment/question.

[Philip]

Repeating for the 3rd. or 4th. time over the last 2 decades.Shiv and I once had a brainstorming session together about the best bird to make up depleting numbers for the IAF.After examining the merits of all contenders, we realised that the simplest and most cost-effective option too was to reopen the MIG-21 line and build new Bisons! I can't remember the name of the AM on a channel yesterday, part of the upgrade team who recollected how the Yanquis were taken aback with two IAF aircraft in the joint exercises.The MKI and Bison.Kudos to this venerable fighter on steroids and our gallant IAF pilots who fly them!

Since this option is no longer possible I suggest an alternative where we are making the engines of it in India and completing all the upgrades ourselves, the MIG-29/35.The GOI has just asked Ru for an urgent supply of 21 new mothballed 29s to make up another sqd.A much better option than buying second-hand 29s from Malaysia wherever.The offer of 35 production should be examined seriously.

However, even another 120 MMRCA birds will not suffice for our present and future needs.Analysts are saying that 60 sqds. are needed to meet the Sino- Pak JV.That's approx 1200 birds, 400 to 500 more than we have right now.Imagine the massive cost.We cannot fill this req. with ultra-expensive Rafales hinted at replacing M2Ks for the N-delivery role. Therefore a few hundreds of Tejas at not more than the price of a new MIG-29, the cheapest by far of all birds must be achieved if we are to at least have arounx 50 sqds .Like the Bison which downed the fancy F-16, at least one to two doz. sqds. should be tasked and built as pure interceptors, with the secondary mission of strike/ GA/CS, with advanced BVR AAMs like ASTRA and the latest WVR AAMs from both east and west.

A further urgent need is a 5th-gen. fighter to meet the Chin threat.The PAF will also definitely get Chin stealth birds especially after this latest spat.It is past time gor ghe GOI/ MOD/ IAF to re- examine the offer of SU-57s as an outright sale like the Rafales, for two sqds. so that we retain the qualitative edge over our enemies.SU-57 initial production for the RuAF has begun and from 2020 will move into large- scale production.If we take a decision this year, we could hope for the first sqd. in around 3 years time.

The other steslth optikn, the F-35. The USMC has reportedly achieved about 75% of testing of the F-35 B on its amphib. carriers.However much serious development and trials are still to be completed.Hopefully within a couple of years we'll see them completed and the first serious deployment of them with the USMC.The F-35 B after proving itself would be an excellent option for the IN and its CVs and LHPD amphibs. too, to fly alongside 29Ks and hopefully the NLCA.That worthy however has yet to fly being of LCAMk-2 std. , will take at least 5 to 7 years to arrive at LSP status and being an SE fighter would be less attractive than both souped up 29Ks to 35 std. and the F-35.We must remember that like Paki F-16s US sales will come with conditions.That factor must be weighed in when deciding.

[Will]

The F-16/F-21 hardly had any chance to begin with and it is essentially a completely different aircraft when compared to what the PAF operates much like the MiG's shot down over the last two-three decades around the world have little in common with the advanced MiG-29's and MiG-35 being currently offered to the IAF.

That’s why I mentioned “legacy” . But as you mentioned the F-16 never was in the running. Also this talk about a US law stopping Pakistan from using the F-16’s in an offensive role just shows how many conditions and baggage US equipment comes with. Unfortunately unless the AMCA comes through in double quick time the IAF May have no option but to go to the US for the F-35 in the not to distant future keeping in mind CHinese stealth advances and their guaranteed sale to TSP. I know right now CHinese stealth technology seems basic but they way they are throwing money at it and stealing tech, a decade down the line their fighters will be a potent threat. On top of that Russia seems to be leaning towards Pakistan and sale of Russian aircraft to Pakistan might not be a dream in the not to distant future.

I think with all the U.S arm twisting India is going to buy the F-18. Also only purchases of equipment from the U.S/ Israel and Russia don’t seem to cause a controversy. Looks like they work overtime to discredit the rest and tie up Indian defence procurement in knots . No govt seems to be able to get out of this vicious cycle.

[brar_w]

The USMC has reportedly achieved about 75% of testing of the F-35 B on its amphib.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2328449#p2328449

[Philip]

Latest news, both the US and Russia warned Pak of yhe consequences of their actions.China refused to intervene.Both the US and Ru are with us on counter-terrorism mil. action.Pak only has China and a few Muslim countries supporting it.

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

The "21" reference is going to quite ironic when Lockheed meets IAF brass for presentations, tests, etc

^^^^^^^ That was funny!


Lookit: I'm gonna simplify this whole MRCA contest. Which potential aircraft has the lowest wing loading? (Dry weight, over wing area)?

If two aircraft have similar wing loading, which has the stronger engine?

That's it.

That's all.

Everything else is "fungible" with add-ons and upgrades and customizations. When picking an air frame, this is all it comes down to.

I've always seen it this way, which is why I favoured the Rafale from the get-go of MMRCA #1. (Delta wings rule, for this reason. Stumpy F16/F21 wings aren't up to the IAF's requirements for warload carriage.)

Now that there is all that Rafale infrastructure and maintenance/supply and training done for the first tranche of 36 fly-aways...... Unless a plane is offered with lesser wing loading and/or more power; it's going to be the Dassault Rafale again.

JMT

[Rakesh]

posted by BRF Member arun

----------------------------------------------------

X Posted from the Terroristan thread.

US seeks information on potential misuse of F-16 by Pakistan.

While the exact details of the restrictions were discussed in a closed-door session, and thus remains classified, Miller then broadly outlined some of the restrictions, which he said were over a "dozen new and unprecedented elements" of the security plan for Pakistan.

Miller then told lawmakers that the security provisions also include semi-annual inventories of all F-16 aircraft equipment and munitions, including related technical data, and more frequent inventories for other systems. (It is official - Terroristan air force chief, the base commander at Chaklala and other fields that F-16's operate from and the pilots flying them have to bend in line holding the vaseleine jar atleast two times every year )

"There is a two-man rule, so to speak, for access to this equipment and restricted areas, and F-16 flights outside of Pakistan or participation in exercises and operations with third nations must be approved in advance by the United States government ," the then top State Department official said, according to the transcripts of the hearing.

A more extensive excerpt from Statement of John Hillen, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Political Military Affairs, U.S. Department of State to the Committee on International Relations of the US House of Representatives dating to 20 July 2006.

It will be interesting to see if the “Semiannual inventories of all F–16 aircraft equipment and munitions” by the US will show an F16 and AMRAAM missing from the inventory and this information actually makes it to the public domain despite non disclosure stipulations thereby confirming that India downed an F16:

The Administration very carefully considered the potential risk of diversion of United States technology and equipment, and we are taking appropriate steps to minimize those risks. Furthermore, the Government of Pakistan, including the Pakistan Air Force, has been extremely cooperative in responding to our concerns on the security of aircraft and technology.

I think we will discuss this in detail in the closed session further, but I would like to note a few things. First of all, the security plan greatly exceeds United States Air Force standards for our own security of these weapon systems. I know all the Members have great respect for the way in which our Air Force protects its security, but I would also like to highlight nearly a dozen new and unprecedented elements of the security plan for Pakistan.

We, of course, have had a U.S. Government security site survey of their bases and facilities. We have put into the deal that they must comply with the approved security plans for their F–16 related bases and facilities before we will release any systems in the sale. We will have a U.S. presence to monitor compliance with the security plan requirements. A very enhanced end-use monitoring program. Semiannual inventories of all F–16 aircraft equipment and munitions, including related technical data. More frequent inventories for other systems. There are separate and distinct and restricted areas for the F–16 aircraft equipment and munitions. And no mixing with third-country origin aircraft equipment and munitions, and all of this will be monitored. Routine access to F–16 aircraft and munitions is in restricted areas and limited to Pakistan Air Force personnel that are preapproved for such. There is a two-man rule, so to speak, for access to this equipment and restricted areas. And F–16 flights outside of Pakistan and participation in exercises and operations with third nations must be approved in advance by the United States Government. The maintenance is limited to remove and replace line replaceable units and shop replaceable units. And Pakistani Air Force personnel must perform the maintenance. No Pakistan contractors, industry, or third-country nationals. We have also mandated that the F–16 maintenance and parts storage must be in dedicated facilities. Also part of the overall surveillance plan.

From here:

PROPOSED SALE OF F–16 AIRCRAFT AND WEAPONS SYSTEMS OF PAKISTAN. HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS

[Rakesh]

After reading the above....apart from the American Apologists, who really wants the F-16 or F-18 as the choice for MMRCA 3.0?

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1101902135610859521 ---> For the past five years some Amriki leaning dalals have been getting waah waahi simply because they have been vituperative towards Pakistan. Now, with the F-16 down their true nature is getting revealed as they run down the IAF & question the efficacy of the Balakot strike.

[Bishwa]

posted by BRF Member arun

----------------------------------------------------

X Posted from the Terroristan thread.

US seeks information on potential misuse of F-16 by Pakistan.

It will be interesting to see if the “Semiannual inventories of all F–16 aircraft equipment and munitions” by the US will show an F16 and AMRAAM missing from the inventory and this information actually makes it to the public domain despite non disclosure stipulations thereby confirming that India downed an F16:

The Administration very carefully considered the potential risk of diversion of United States technology and equipment, and we are taking appropriate steps to minimize those risks. Furthermore, the Government of Pakistan, including the Pakistan Air Force, has been extremely cooperative in responding to our concerns on the security of aircraft and technology.


.

It is possible the Pakistanis got that video of Wing Co Abhinandan made before releasing him where he is depicted as saying he crossed over to hit a target so that they can position the use of the F16 and the AIM missiles as a defensive use. They already knew India had evidence of AIM missile use before he was released.

[Rakesh]

X-Post from the MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir thread...

=================================================================================

Zaid Hamid came out in full support of the nytimes article and is mentioned in the link below.

Indians Blast NYT for "Biased" Reporting on Aerial Dogfight Between MiG-21, F-16

If this was an American bird (F-16 or F-18) that shot down the Pakistani F-16, this article would be all in praises for India

I paraphrase (because it is copyrighted) some gems of the article below....

So the Americans - as per the article - have three issues with India;

1) Our bureaucracy makes it very hard for arms to be sold and our bureaucracy makes its very hard for interoperability. Translation ---> India needs to buy American fighters to modernize her military's air component and be part of the global military force led by (you guessed it!) the Americans. When you have the same platform, it makes interoperability that much easier after all. Please do not tell the French that! Their naval pilots are training with the Rafale M on board American carriers, as the Charles De Gaulle is undergoing a refit. And the French and the Americans are perfectly fine with that arrangement. In fact, American naval aviators have gone on record - in their own US Navy website - stating that the interoperability between the two is just great.

2) India's armed forces do not get the required funding. Translation ---> Increase defence budget, so India can buy American fighters. But if India buys a fighter jet from any other country, then the NYT will state that India is starving her citizens to fund her military.

So what is the moral of the story or the patronizing lesson to be learnt here?

American Fighter = Salvation
Any Other Fighter = Starvation

3) India's military wings (the army, the navy and the air force) compete with, rather than complement, each other. Translation ---> Buy F-18 and you can use it both in the navy and in the air force. Why hold competition, unless we win

And then the article goes to state ---> despite all these issues (and more), that Captain America will come like a knight in shining armour to save India from the oncoming Chinese onslaught. With American help, India will soundly defeat the Chinese.

And then the article quotes then Defence Secretary James Mattis about the US Indo-Pacific Command keeping watch from Hollywood to Bollywood. I am not making that bit up, go read the article. Yes, the Americans are ensuring that India's Hindi film industry will survive any attack from China or any other enemy. That Saving Bollywood promise will go a long way in cementing ties between our two nations. That Shah Rukh Khan and Hrithik Roshan will survive an attack makes me so much happier! I am hurt and disappointed though, that James Mattis did not mention the Tamil, Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam film industries. I guess they are not that important. Poor 'ol Rajnikanth! Mind It!

The rest of the article is usual fluff nonsense, but towards the end there is that drive-by shot against the Rafale. About how the Rafale is mired in a corruption scandal and with Prime Minister Modi wistfully wishing that had the IAF had the Rafale instead.

What a lifafa piece! Ack Thooo!!!!

[Rakesh]

X-Post from the MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir thread...

=================================================================================

After the NYT article... ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7699&p=2330834#p2330834

...comes this gem. See below...Boeing and Lockheed Martin are really piling on the pressure

India’s Dogfight Loss Could Be a Win for U.S. Weapons-Makers
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/05/in ... -pakistan/

The MiG-21 was not so lucky. Images of the wreckage quickly emerged on social media, as did the remnants of a U.S.-made AIM-120 air-to-air missile that India said was possibly used to shoot it down.

Thank you for admitting that PAF F-16s were actually used in combat

In addition to the immediate cash value for whichever company wins the work, India’s fighter replacement also offers Boeing and Lockheed the opportunity to extend the production of legacy systems that are reaching the end of their service lives.

What can one say to the above?

“It is hard to sell a front-line fighter to a country that isn’t threatened,” said Loren Thompson, an analyst with the Lexington Institute. “Boeing and Lockheed Martin both have a better chance of selling now because suddenly India feels threatened.”

Feel Threatened = Buy American Fighters

“The dogfight with Pakistan has moved fighter modernization higher on Mr. Modi’s list of priorities,” said Thompson, calling the incident an “embarrassment.” Thompson’s think tank receives funding from a range of firms including Lockheed and Boeing.

Did Boeing and Lockheed write the article?

“One would hope that this would lead to an attack of common sense and good government,” Aboulafia said but cautioned that an acceleration of the effort is far from guaranteed. “The track record is nothing short of awful.”

Common Sense & Good Governance = Buy American Fighters
No Sense & Bad Governance = Any Other Fighter

India will be pressed to modernize its military overall, as its Chinese neighbor continues to develop advanced capabilities, Thompson said.

That train is never late!

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1102510782778990592 ---> Arms import dalals are striving hard to emerge as the 'true victors' of the Balakot episode.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1103163989737893888 ---> The funny thing is, a 'bulked -up' F-21 (F-16 cough cough) with those EFTs and other add-ons will be shot down even more easily in close-combat by a R-73 equipped MiG-21 Bison.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1103166919866085377 ----> When the F-35 is finally offered to India for license production in 203X AD with our AMCA reaching IOC, it will be called the F-36I and some will bill it as a 'strategic win' to 'consummate' the 'natural partnership'.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1103170686405603328 ---> Instead of being *ashamed* that their weapons are being used to target Indian Aircraft by a terrorist harbouring, military-intelligence State, some Americans are busy running down the democracy-upholding Indian military and its capabilities in a bid to secure commercial gains.

[ramana]

Rakesh I had said in the Balako that Ratan Tata is the biggest loser after the MiG-21 gored the F-16 Viper.

After the 26/11 attack on Tajmahal hotel, Tata signed up on the American bandwagon with alacrity : TASL-Boeing and last year in anticipation TASL was moved from Tata Power to Tata and Sons in anticipation of the huge bonanza of weapons orders.

The new Indian Krupps was to emerge like a phoenix.

Everyone forgets Radia madam had Ratanji among her clientele.

Now all that is gored.

[Rakesh]

Yes I remember Ramana-ji. The F-16/F-21 is by all measure done. Now only the F-18 is left. Anyway, that was the only serious American offering in the current MRCA contest. But then again the question remains, what game changing feature does the F-18 have that the Rafale does not? Cost alone will not be a factor, if one has to factor in all the other variables - base infrastructure, simulators, weaponry, spares, tools, jigs, etc.

[Rakesh]

MMRCA Mess and the Need for Professionalism in the Defence Acquisition Process
https://idsa.in/issuebrief/mmrca-profes ... hal-220219

By Group Captain Vinay Kaushal (Retd.) - a Distinguished Fellow at Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, New Delhi.

February 22, 2019

[Rakesh]

Lockheed Martin Deletes Claim That Its Rebranded F-21 Could Be A Path To Indian F-35s
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... dian-f-35s

February 20, 2019

[Rakesh]

X-Post from Balakot: News & Discussion Thread.

Please read....

Big Worry For The Pentagon Even Beyond The Shooting Down Of A PAF F-16
http://www.indianpolitics.co.in/big-wor ... a-paf-f16/

The first is the total jamming by IAF Sukhoi MKIs of the seekers of all the BVRAAM fired by the PAF F16s, thus making them totally blind and ineffective.

The second is the shooting down of a Pakistani BVRAAM by a missile fired by a Sukhoi, if this is true then this is akin to a bullet striking down a bullet.

AIM-120C-5 missile is still a front-line Air-to-Air Missile system equipping many fighters produced by US and in service with USAAF and almost all NATO air-forces. Indian Su-30MKI deployed a combination of ECM and flares along with Superior maneuverability to nullify the American made missiles in a matter of few seconds of their launching.

Russian developed Sukhoi-30 fighter jet with Indian avionics outmaneuvered the missiles by active jamming in the air and this surely is an alarming discovery for Pentagon, NATO and many Asian countries who rely heavily on such missiles to defend themselves against other Russian aircraft operators in the region.

[Rakesh]

X-Post from the VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions thread...

The going price of Su-35s seem to be around 100 million a piece with availability guarantees. There are now two deals which show this: Egyptian about 20 (24) fighters for a little over 2 billion and the 11 fighters to Indonesia for 1.1 billion.

The going price of Su-35s seem to be around 100 million a piece with availability guarantees. There are now two deals which show this: Egyptian about 20 (24) fighters for a little over 2 billion and the 11 fighters to Indonesia for 1.1 billion.

OT:Incl weapons?

Reportedly, yes. Don't know for sure.

[ramana]

If it has to be an import then would go with the naval Rafale as it will have commonality with the IAF versions.
But then India can forget about the carrier battle groups as they can afford the price.
So quite likely Naval Tejas will come through.
MP figured out that the MiG-21 replacement was tagged with the M2K replacement to get the 126.
Hence the 83 Tejas and the Tejas MWF will put this import lobby to bed.

France will offer co-development for follow-on plane most likely.

[UlanBatori]

I would suggest that the successful participation of a flight of M2Ks in ONE mission has lit up the desi short-attention-span masses to the usual extremes. Yes, they also came in very handy in 1999, I know.

But neither of these is a good reason to go splurge on more French Rafales, esp. not the naval variety. There is a reason why the downing of ONE old plane with ONE pilot is such a big deal: it is because planes were so &^%$*( expensive compared to a tank or, in Pakistan's case, one soosai bummer.
Knock out 20 and you have wiped out half the GDP in addition to 90% of the H&D, so to speak.

The Naval Rafale has a sorry history in the recent Syria festivities. Their radar apparently got jammed by General Smirnoff's merry gang. Yes, compared to the Rafales, which took off and hid behind a screen of US fighters to launch a set of missiles that hit nothing, the Russians lost 2 MiG 29s? 31s? taking off from the Glorified Rust-Bucket that they sent. That is nothing. If that had continued, the Russians would have fixed up the rust-bucket, and brought 30 more MiGs. The Rust Bucket did fire some SLCMs, I think, though I may be wrong on that.

Which brings me to my point: Naval LCAs are the only way to go, with Russian MiGs filling the gap until enough LCAs can be brought up. You HAVE to get to the point where combat aircraft are as important as tanks, but no more. And equally numerous. With your own missiles with your own sensors, software, radar, propulsion and control. That are changed frequently enough to keep the ISI spies in business.

I wonder if anyone has done the tradeoff between Combat aircraft with mid-air refuelling versus a couple of carriers. The carriers can launch missiles which many be shorter-range, so land-launch is not good enough, but the carriers are also fixed targets, not so hard to find any more unlike in 1941. Can you imagine the impact of a big carrier being sunk? All it takes is one successful soosai by a sub, or a few dinghies towing torpedos. I think the Cinquieme de Mayo (??) Argentine Carrier was sunk by one shot of torpedoe from one UKstani sub, hain?

[negi]

^ It will take yugas to reach this sort of thinking for our forces like to follow and go by 'traditions' any thought that questions status-quo is not welcomed . For instance if one is able to build a missile in scud (I use it as an example for even bhikari countries can field it) class i.e. cheap , easy to mass manufacture and that is highly mobile you can replace squadrons of expensive aircraft . Now no one is talking about complete replacement of fighter AC but it is a no brainer that in entire scheme of things pilot will always remain and continue to become the more expensive (in a good way) resource while cost of making a ballistic missile will continue to go down . Challenge with N LCA is instead of starting as a naval fighter and then being re-purposed for IAF we went the other way (we like to play hard to get) so it has a even steeper uphill journey ahead of it as against the IAF Tejas , I mean if the AC is underpowered for the IAF itself it will be even more underpowered for the Navy .

[Rakesh]

If it has to be an import then would go with the naval Rafale as it will have commonality with the IAF versions.
But then India can forget about the carrier battle groups as they can afford the price.
So quite likely Naval Tejas will come through.
MP figured out that the MiG-21 replacement was tagged with the M2K replacement to get the 126.
Hence the 83 Tejas and the Tejas MWF will put this import lobby to bed.

France will offer co-development for follow-on plane most likely.

All valid points.

I am not in favour of building Rafales in India. It will sky rocket the price, which is an already high figure. I would prefer we buy them off the shelf. Dassault's CEO - Eric Trappier - has set the bar. He needs an order of a minimum of 100 Rafales to open an assembly line in India. The IAF would definitely like more Rafales and seeing the investment made, it only makes sense to do so. 3 more squadrons for the air force would be nice and 2 squadrons for the navy. Order Rafales for the air force and the navy, but place the order at different time periods.

France and India are both designing their next carriers. DCNS is working on PA2 and the Indian Naval Design Bureau is working on the Vishal. It would make sense to bring both designs together, with the exception of the propulsion. PA2 will be nuclear powered, while the Vishal will be conventionally powered. Although that might change for India in the future. Both carriers are planned to have EMALS. A shared carrier design - between France and India - will also greatly improve Dassault's chances of winning the naval carrier borne fighter contest.

If naval Rafales do come, I would love to see a shared training base between the IAF and the IN. Like a conversion unit from Advanced Jet Trainer stage to Rafale Familiarization. From here they could move on to their respective bases with the IAF or the IN for more service-specific courses in the Rafale training syllabus. Shared training, shared instructors, shared resources. Give pilot opportunities to operate in a sister service - just like Admiral Arun Prakash did in the 1971 Indo-Pak War, where he flew Hunters with No 20 Lightnings Squadron. The cost savings would be great. Also give an opportunity for the air force and the navy to talk about jointmanship in the annual MoD report Is this a feasible idea?

Perhaps that base can also serve for Rafales from other air forces - Qatar, Egypt and even UAE, if they buy the Rafale - to conduct joint exercises with the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy.

In a perfect world, I would like to see the naval contest cancelled and go in for the Naval Tejas Mk2. But we do not live in that perfect world.

[souravB]

Sir, two points

PA2 will be nuclear powered, while the Vishal will be conventionally powered. Although that might change for India in the future.

We already have the required power plant to make IAC2 nuclear powered. French used a similar rated reactor for CDG. We might have to use an extra reactor to compensate for the increase in size. Even Unkil was using reactors with same rating in their older gen carriers. IN and GoI has to have the political will to make it happen.

In a perfect world, I would like to see the naval contest cancelled and go in for the Naval Tejas Mk2. But we do not live in that perfect world.

ADA as the interview posted yesterday in LCA dhaga, have started design work on NAMCA. But it will probably be late for IAC2. IN needs to fly NLCA in the mean time if it wants to fly all desi fighters. Induction of NAMCA might not happen before 2035.

[dinesha]

Lessons to be learned.. X-posting

Pakistan Amraams can be made ineffective: US assured Manohar Parrikar
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 506398.cms

Carter responded to this by assuring that the missiles will not be used against India and the US has a mechanism to make them ineffective if they are used during war. “If they use it for an offensive purpose, they can interfere with the mechanism and make them ineffective,” the officer, who was involved in the talks, told ET.

The second issue was the potential of misuse of F16s to deliver nuclear bombs against India. “An assurance was given that in case of a potential nuclear attack, the US can disable the aircraft. That, if they use nukes, they won’t be able to operate the F16s,” the officer said.