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In the morning of 27 Feb 19, our Air Defence system was on full alert. Build up of PAF aircraft on their side of LoC was noticed in time and additional aircraft were scrambled to tackle the adversary. In their attempt to attack our ground targets, PAF aircraft were engaged effectively. From IAF side, Mirage-2000, Su-30 and MiG-21 Bison aircraft were involved in the engagement. PAF aircraft were forced to withdraw in a hurry, which is also evident from large missed distances of the weapons dropped by them. During combat, use of F-16 by PAF and multiple launches of AMRAAM were conclusively observed. Prompt and correct tactical action by Su-30 aircraft, in response to AMRAAM launch, defeated the missile. Parts of the missile fell in area East of Rajouri in J&K, injuring a civilian on ground. Detailed report in this regard has already been released by IAF. All the Su-30 aircraft engaged in combat landed back safely. False claim by Pakistan of shooting down a Su-30, appears to be a cover up for loss of its own aircraft..
The ESM/RWR combo can detect the launch and vector of missile and other parameter perhaps even the MCG received by AMRAAM and post active phase too and deploy ECM.
Looks like a very desperate Pakistani attempt to do maximum kills against IAF fleet using swarm of AMRAAM after previous night undetected deep penetration by IAF and successful strike with no loss. Only a desperation from PAF would do a broad day launch and strikes by AMRAAM.
As Pakistani Radar Ground based and Air based system would have identified the Su-30 they wanted to kill it in an attempt to prove they got the best of IAF fleet hence the swarm launch agianst single target.
Next time IAF should simply launch Mica ,R-27/R-77 .......No need for us to be dharmic and follow ROE
Happy what ever our boys did prevented any sucessful kill
That Hukum chap on twitter has the info spot on since yesterday.... The mki were indeed governed by the Netra/roe but successfully countered amraam and made it lose lock and slam into the ground. The porkis appear to have caught us by surprise with roe violation and amraam targeting.
Looks like a very desperate Pakistani attempt to do maximum kills against IAF fleet using swarm of AMRAAM after previous night undetected deep penetration by IAF and successful strike with no loss. Only a desperation from PAF would do a broad day launch and strikes by AMRAAM.
Bharadwaj wrote:That Hukum chap on twitter has the info spot on since yesterday.... The mki were indeed governed by the Netra/roe but successfully countered amraam and made it lose lock and slam into the ground. The porkis appear to have caught us by surprise with roe violation and amraam targeting.
The ESM/RWR combo can detect the launch and vector of missile and other parameter perhaps even the MCG received by AMRAAM and post active phase too and deploy ECM.
Looks like a very desperate Pakistani attempt to do maximum kills against IAF fleet using swarm of AMRAAM after previous night undetected deep penetration by IAF and successful strike with no loss. Only a desperation from PAF would do a broad day launch and strikes by AMRAAM.
As Pakistani Radar Ground based and Air based system would have identified the Su-30 they wanted to kill it in an attempt to prove they got the best of IAF fleet hence the swarm launch agianst single target.
Next time IAF should simply launch Mica ,R-27/R-77 .......No need for us to be dharmic and follow ROE
Happy what ever our boys did prevented any sucessful kill
Such powerful counter measures from the Su 30 MKI means that Pak Air Force will be massacred quickly and brutally in any larger conflict
Their goal would have been just that. Somehow get an MKI hit and since we don't hide our losses, they could tom-tom it as them coming in and beating our best in our own airspace. All that bravado however disappeared when they realized the enemy here can and will shoot back! What people forget is just like no person is 'bullet proof', no aircraft is immune from missiles. Its a host of factors/technology/skills that keep a missile from hitting an aircraft. Our MKIs, Mirages, Bison's obviously had and used that. The F-16 on the other hand could/did not. So being Pukes they went ahead and claimed the hit and denied their loss. Nothing new here.
Anyone doubting our description of events should be prepared to answer this question. Would our Air Chief lie about the event in an open news conference when every pilot, radar operator on ground and in air involved that day knows exactly what happened? What exactly would he or the Air Force hope to gain from that?
We have real heroes and hence we don't need fabricated ones.
Austin wrote:
The ESM/RWR combo can detect the launch and vector of missile and other parameter perhaps even the MCG received by AMRAAM and post active phase too and deploy ECM.
Looks like a very desperate Pakistani attempt to do maximum kills against IAF fleet using swarm of AMRAAM after previous night undetected deep penetration by IAF and successful strike with no loss. Only a desperation from PAF would do a broad day launch and strikes by AMRAAM.
As Pakistani Radar Ground based and Air based system would have identified the Su-30 they wanted to kill it in an attempt to prove they got the best of IAF fleet hence the swarm launch agianst single target.
Next time IAF should simply launch Mica ,R-27/R-77 .......No need for us to be dharmic and follow ROE
Happy what ever our boys did prevented any sucessful kill
Such powerful counter measures from the Su 30 MKI means that Pak Air Force will be massacred quickly and brutally in any larger conflict
Without a doubt.Hence the diplomatic begging for de escalation, shalwar shivering <48Hr relase of WingCo Varthaman and Islamabad to Karachi through Quetta!
There even reports that the Pawkis are moving major terrorists to safer locations under "operation Crack(the smokable one)Down".
I have been thinking about the so called PAF BVR missile hit of Mig 21 bison for a while. The Mig was in hot pursuit of the F16 (assuming it was a high speed chase). It was precisely at that time the Mig was shot by another PAF a/c supposedly BVR strike. What is the probability of surviving such a hit (with high explosive blast fragmentation warhead of the missile and the kinetic energy)? Wg Cdr Abhinandan seemed to emerge unscathed. The Mig 21 wreckage pics seems to be tidy and clean too. This lends more credence to the engine flameout scenario
SidSoma wrote:Man.... we are winning battles but not perceptions. What kind of crap is that Press release ??
You are listening to Paki propaganda, developing a case of dis-information induced anxiety, and coming here to claim that 'Indian dullards of propaganda' did not do enough to cure your anxiety.
Fix your own anxiety man.. Trust your govt. Literally every one of your questions has been answered.
Aditya_V wrote:Clearly we were following ROE and Pakis did not follow any rules. Time we should ambush some of their aircraft. Looking at the Multiple launches, it looks like more than 2 launches.
As a rule we should know especially the Pakistani military do not play by the rules
Forget the bit about *non-military target*. Where we following the ROE when we struck Balakot? We broke the ROE once and they did it once and that is how things stand today.
komal wrote:^
Other than Congis, Pakis (I repeat myself) whose perceptions are won by what is said by Paki broadcasters? Who cares what they think?
The entire Abhinandan action occured on 27th morning. The IAF brief was which spoke about 24 planes being challenged by 8 planes was done on 28th evening. So what we knew for almost 2 days was that 3-4 F-16s were challenged by 2-3 migs and 2 planes were lost etc. Part of the picture was revealed only on the next day. By that time most ppl had decided that our SU-30s were a dud and we had lost the battle. Its hard to overcome that battle. Now the perception of most around me is that we were lucky to get the result we got. I mean, we BFRites understand and are patient, but most general public dont. Its important to also convey to the public how confident we are that we can taken on PAF with 3:1 odds and yet strike fear in them. Basically I am tired of being hounded Why Mig 21, why did we lose pilot in their POK etc etc. Long rant
Aditya_V wrote:Yes but MKI not firing R-77 R-27 at multiple bogies respecting ROE is also significant.
I was toeing the ROE line a few pages upthread but this new information is a little confusing. If an amraam is fired at you, should the roe not be to let the bars do its work and kill a few vipers. Or were the crew too busy with counter measures and the porkis escaped by the time they defeated the missile? The mki has proven itself vs the solah over and over in exercises with the yanks and the Singaporeans... Perhaps its time to unshackle the roe and let them do their job. This is also where the tejas with its low rcs is needed at the borders asap. The only time the solahs would have realized anything is wrong is when their rwrs lit up and they had a salvo of derbys up their rear end. I am not trying to second guess the IAF tactics but a golden opportunity to dent the paf seems to have been missed.
I would think the IAF pilots would have been too occupied with dealing with counter measures and by the time they could focus on the enemy again those solahs would have crossed over the LOC to their side.
I would *think* giving chase or firing a missile at a PAF across the LOC is not part of regular ROE.
Bharadwaj wrote:
I was toeing the ROE line a few pages upthread but this new information is a little confusing. If an amraam is fired at you, should the roe not be to let the bars do its work and kill a few vipers. Or were the crew too busy with counter measures and the porkis escaped by the time they defeated the missile? The mki has proven itself vs the solah over and over in exercises with the yanks and the Singaporeans... Perhaps its time to unshackle the roe and let them do their job. This is also where the tejas with its low rcs is needed at the borders asap. The only time the solahs would have realized anything is wrong is when their rwrs lit up and they had a salvo of derbys up their rear end. I am not trying to second guess the IAF tactics but a golden opportunity to dent the paf seems to have been missed.
I would think the IAF pilots would have been too occupied with dealing with counter measures and by the time they could focus on the enemy again those solahs would have crossed over the LOC to their side.
I would *think* giving chase or firing a missile at a PAF across the LOC is not part of regular ROE.
I am sure it is also mission dependent. If the planes are guarding an Ammo dump & Brigade HQ, you don’t want the planes to run off in a quest for glory while leaving the Ammo dump & Brigade undefended.
pankajs wrote:I would *think* giving chase or firing a missile at a PAF across the LOC is not part of regular ROE.
This is where I'm lost. If IAF's ROE did not permit our pilots to shoot at PAF, across LOC, how/why did the mig 21 give a chase to paki f16 and shot it down across loc? I think none of us has a close enough picture on what happened.
pankajs wrote:I would *think* giving chase or firing a missile at a PAF across the LOC is not part of regular ROE.
This is where I'm lost. If IAF's ROE did not permit our pilots to shoot at PAF, across LOC, how/why did the mig 21 give a chase to paki f16 and shot it down across loc? I think none of us has a close enough picture on what happened.
From what I can recollect, Wg Cdr Abhi *drifted across the LOC" after ejection per IAF's past briefing and note today's release talks about "aerial battle over Nowshera". {Correction: IAF's todays release does not talk of the area of combat. I was quoting Manu Pubby who I thought was quoting IAF's press release.}
Puting those 2 together, my *guess* would be when the Wg Cdr launched his missile or at obtained the lock, the PAF F-16 would still in the Indian Airspace or at least that is what Wg Cdr Abi thought.
Edited for correction.
Last edited by pankajs on 05 Mar 2019 23:55, edited 2 times in total.
pankajs wrote:I would *think* giving chase or firing a missile at a PAF across the LOC is not part of regular ROE.
This is where I'm lost. If IAF's ROE did not permit our pilots to shoot at PAF, across LOC, how/why did the mig 21 give a chase to paki f16 and shot it down across loc? I think none of us has a close enough picture on what happened.
In the heat of the chase and the adrenaline rush of shooting down your enemy's most coveted fighter, do you think the Wing Co. even realized that he had crossed the LC?
Imagine you are flying at close to Mach 2.0 with just one sole purpose of firing the R73 up the enemy's Musharraf
komal wrote:^
Other than Congis, Pakis (I repeat myself) whose perceptions are won by what is said by Paki broadcasters? Who cares what they think?
The entire Abhinandan action occured on 27th morning. The IAF brief was which spoke about 24 planes being challenged by 8 planes was done on 28th evening. So what we knew for almost 2 days was that 3-4 F-16s were challenged by 2-3 migs and 2 planes were lost etc. Part of the picture was revealed only on the next day. By that time most ppl had decided that our SU-30s were a dud and we had lost the battle. Its hard to overcome that battle. Now the perception of most around me is that we were lucky to get the result we got. I mean, we BFRites understand and are patient, but most general public dont. Its important to also convey to the public how confident we are that we can taken on PAF with 3:1 odds and yet strike fear in them. Basically I am tired of being hounded Why Mig 21, why did we lose pilot in their POK etc etc. Long rant
No one is interested in listening to you rant. You are just trolling. Stop or I will have to hand out a ban.
pankajs wrote:I would *think* giving chase or firing a missile at a PAF across the LOC is not part of regular ROE.
This is where I'm lost. If IAF's ROE did not permit our pilots to shoot at PAF, across LOC, how/why did the mig 21 give a chase to paki f16 and shot it down across loc? I think none of us has a close enough picture on what happened.
Here is my view. The LGB strike was done in the sector where the Mig21 were on CAP. Someway they got notification of LGB strikes and this could caused WC Abhi to dash towards the F16 either catching one of them lasing the target or exiting out. Given the Mach 2 capability of Mig21, dash & hit is what the Mig21 will really good at.
The covering F16 would have noticed the Mig21 and fire off an Aim120.. or the Mig21 crossed over the LoC due to search momentum and got shot down by ground fire/SAM/Manpad. Some of the ex-IAf on tweeter say he was hit by ground fire, some reports say he was hit my Aim120.
On other sectors, PAF jets stayed outside the LC. Once the Mig21 incident was all over the radio, some of the F16 must have fired off Aim120 towards the Su30 to prevent them firing off R77. I guess both F16 & Su30 were locked in to each other, without firing until the Mig21 incident.
What did I say guys! OSINT gives you a fair amount of clues at times.
So, the IAF's full blown response with its QRA thanks to the AWACS basically forced the strike packages to lose their accuracy & messed up the strikes.
The Pakistanis led with whatever they had, their BVR inventory, PGMs etc.
This was all that they could come up with and they used it, and an IAF force 3x smaller than them, held them off & even shot down a F-16.
I can bet you the rest of the fight was in BVR, with RWRs on the PAF JF-17, Mirage 3 and F-16s screeching away as the Su-30s & Mirage 2000s locked on to them or they had constant TWS pimgs indicating that any time R77s & Micas & other weapons would be headed their way!
In the morning of 27 Feb 19, our Air Defence system was on full alert. Build up of PAF aircraft on their side of LoC was noticed in time and additional aircraft were scrambled to tackle the adversary.
In their attempt to attack our ground targets, PAF aircraft were engaged effectively. From IAF side, Mirage-2000, Su-30 and MiG-21 Bison aircraft were involved in the engagement. PAF aircraft were forced to withdraw in a hurry, which is also evident from large missed distances of the weapons dropped by them.
During combat, use of F-16 by PAF and multiple launches of AMRAAM were conclusively observed. Prompt and correct tactical action by Su-30 aircraft, in response to AMRAAM launch, defeated the missile. Parts of the missile fell in area East of Rajouri in J&K, injuring a civilian on ground. Detailed report in this regard has already been released by IAF.
All the Su-30 aircraft engaged in combat landed back safely. False claim by Pakistan of shooting down a Su-30, appears to be a cover up for loss of its own aircraft..
Karan M wrote:I have to admit now that whosoever made that OSINT image of multiple F-16s, JF-17s and Mirage 3s might have a good idea of what went on..
The PAF threw its entire armory at the IAF on Feb27th. They led with all they had.
AMRAAMs, Raptors.. i am sure the rest of the strikes had GPS guided PGMs and LGBs.. from the PAFs US & PRC inventory.
The curved path in that OSINT image, for most of the fighters indicate they led with PGMs and glide munitions - e.g. the JF-17s and Mirages both deploying the Raptor type bombs, then broke away turning back towards their side. The IAF surge towards the border probably led the attacks to fail as they couldnt likely lase the targets to completion in some cases & broke away.
Another section of F-16s then barrelled in seeing the chance to break through the MiG-21s and open a path for a strike package. They basically underestimated the MiG-21s & paid the price.
The lack of retaliation from the Indian side was entirely because the attacks failed... if they had succeeded, we'd have been at war.
Must have been a heckuva fight & some 8 Su-30s, Mirage 2000 and MiG-21s held off a force several times their number.
Wont be surprised to hear that instead of just lock-ons several missile launches from the Indian side took place.
SidSoma wrote:Man.... we are winning battles but not perceptions. What kind of crap is that Press release ??
Air defence on full alert: Why no SAMs fired. Were the PAF engaged by air artillery. How many craft were detected and what types ?
During combat, use of F-16 by PAF and multiple launches of AMRAAM were conclusively observed: How many platforms shot these missiles. How many missiles were fired. Any other missiles fired ?
Prompt and correct tactical action by Su-30 aircraft, in response to AMRAAM launch, defeated the missile.: If there were multiple launches and the prompt and correct tactical action defeated one missile, what happened to the others ??
All the Su-30 aircraft engaged in combat landed back safely.: What the hell happened to the other aircraft. Esp Mirages. Did we lose only one MiG
False claim by Pakistan of shooting down a Su-30, appears to be a cover up for loss of its own aircraft.: So are we confirming that only one of their F 16s were lost ??
Almost every sentence only raises more questions than it answers. Ameturish.
At one end we have Pakis on TV claiming that either SU-30 or M2000 was shot down due to BVR action from JF 17.The Mi-17 was shot down from the Su-30 and it was a classical case of fratricide. The Western air commander was 'Kicked' out due to Mi-17 and other tactical errors. That PAF is aided in their mission to defended PAK holy land by "Farishtey" from Jannat.
And the beautiful Indian dullards of propaganda. Sheesh man
Very carefully worded statements with some specific words used intentionally is crap but paki TV (including NDTV) noise which is meant for paki fata abdul is winning perception battle...? Sigh. I suggest you spend couple of years in lurker mode, start slowly from newbie thread and work your way upwards. You have a long way to go. Until then, just try to maintain a skeptical mind on anything and everything you hear. I think you'd be alright.
anishns wrote:
In the heat of the chase and the adrenaline rush of shooting down your enemy's most coveted fighter, do you think the Wing Co. even realized that he had crossed the LC?
Imagine you are flying at close to Mach 2.0 with just one sole purpose of firing the R73 up the enemy's Musharraf
This is what my imagination is also leading me to believe and I certainly would not second guess Wing Co's actions in this context.
anishns wrote:
In the heat of the chase and the adrenaline rush of shooting down your enemy's most coveted fighter, do you think the Wing Co. even realized that he had crossed the LC?
Imagine you are flying at close to Mach 2.0 with just one sole purpose of firing the R73 up the enemy's Musharraf
This is what my imagination is also leading me to believe and I certainly would not second guess Wing Co's actions in this context.
RoE is about holding on firing until PAF crosses LoC. Once they crossed, i dont think IAF had any restriction then onwards to remain within our LoC. Free hand given this time to the Forces and I think PM meant exactly what he said, unlike the strict briefing of Kargill. Also one needs keep in mind that LoC is not a straight line.
Zynda wrote:AMRAAM/ARH missile launches can be detected by RWR...MANPADS can detect both IR & Radar guided missiles. They are more useful to detect passive missile launches like IR/IIR guided missile.
This is what one post on SM notes:
FWIW... SM needs to be treated with caution as you'd know but the below sounds fairly accurate and should mark another example of desi-eqpt doing its job!
The AIM-120 C was fired by one of the 4 x F-16 flying CAP in the general area of Mangla Dam (POK).This was aimed at 4x Su-30MKI which was vectored towards Sunderbani to deter any attempts to target Udhampur AFS.
The Su-30 MKI which was "locked on" by the F-16 , quickly punched counter measures on being warned by the onboard Tarang RWR.The AIM-120 C lost lock and went onto slam into Reasi.
As a SOP , you must break formation , roll and quickly punch Chaff , Flares and engage onboard ECM.
nam wrote:Is there any comment by PAF? on the air battle? Even an offical word that JF17 shot down the Mig21? (and Su30 as claimed)
Or R77 being fired by India and it's superior technology nullified it? Something like that.
I have hardly seen any comments. Other than that PA news reader guy on tweeter.
they are tactically brilliant sir. The moment they say it, IAF will probably show to the world their real nook nood picture. My sense is IAF is keeping lid on things as instructed by govt
Karan M wrote:The PAF AEW&CS must have been seeing the whole thing unfold as well. So no issues in posting the above.
sir is it possible that the aewcs may be in the blindspot, afterall it doesnt have chapati and the range will be small so who knows seeing su30 it may be ran first before warning fizzleya. Sthg like "janab mud raha hoon, india ne sukhoi bheja hai..aap bhi jaldi ghar aa jao"
SidSoma.. the amount of funny stuff in your post makes my head spin. Seriously man.. before calling the IAF press release, which deliberately and intelligently protects their tactical actions from public view, amateurish, spend some time on the forum and lurk. No more such posts, thanks.
JayS wrote:
SidSoma wrote:Man.... we are winning battles but not perceptions. What kind of crap is that Press release ??
..............
And the beautiful Indian dullards of propaganda. Sheesh man
Very carefully worded statements with some specific words used intentionally is crap but paki TV (including NDTV) noise which is meant for paki fata abdul is winning perception battle...? Sigh. I suggest you spend couple of years in lurker mode, start slowly from newbie thread and work your way upwards. You have a long way to go. Until then, just try to maintain a skeptical mind on anything and everything you hear. I think you'd be alright.
Karan M wrote:The PAF AEW&CS must have been seeing the whole thing unfold as well. So no issues in posting the above.
sir is it possible that the aewcs may be in the blindspot, afterall it doesnt have chapati and the range will be small so who knows seeing su30 it may be ran first before warning fizzleya. Sthg like "janab mud raha hoon, india ne sukhoi bheja hai..aap bhi jaldi ghar aa jao"
PAF has two AEW&CS types, one ZDK-03 and other Erieye. Both field radar, IFF, ESM, while Pakis claim ZDK radar outranges Erieye, I'll bet their best western stuff was in theater. Its signal processing seems to be better than the imported PRC one (http://capsindia.org/files/documents/CA ... _RS_21.pdf). Also speaks volumes we used Netra over such an area.
Both seem to lack the comprehensive CSM fit & battlemanagement software the IAF AEW&C field.
Basically, the Erieye radar & ESM is similar to Netra, while it lacks other avionics capabilities.
It should have been able to detect & track our fighters as long as they were high & not masked by valleys etc & not using dedicated jamming.
SidSoma wrote:Man.... we are winning battles but not perceptions. What kind of crap is that Press release ??
.....
And the beautiful Indian dullards of propaganda. Sheesh man
next time there is an air battle between IAF and PAF i suggest you go to you terrace. you will see farishtey catching IAF's A to A mijjiles and throwing them back. you will also see flying horses deflecting the SPICE package. and if u cant see this ur not a true Momin.
i urge the Admin -ul - Rashedin to close this thread.
PS: in 65 you would have also seen "Ali ki talwar" but now a days Ali is deemed a shia and hence not a true Momin.
