MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Mar 2019 14:57

Hope we get some SAM's and the AFgani?Pashtuni Awam get to let loose of F- Solah Pilots, all the Hassan's and Noman's.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 06 Mar 2019 15:25

Regarding the usage of F-16s and AMRAAMs, I think we fellas need to understand a few things.

The proportion of F-16s sold for anti Taliban anti terror related purposes is less than 50%. The mainstay of the F-16s fleet has been there since Soviet Afghan times and I refuse to believe those a/c come under post 9/11 rules. No sir.

Second, what mor_on in Pentagon is going to write and which mor_on in Pakistan Air Force Headquarters is going sign on the line which says
please use a 50-75 Kms Air to Air only missile against Camels and Mules of the Taliban Non-Existent Air Force.

Those AMRAAMS do not come up with penalty clause of any sort and neither will you see any official word coming from US trying to punish the Pakis for it.
Those missiles are meant for air to air and air to air is what they did well at by taking out the mig-21 and the pot shots at Sukhoi.

Lets stop going around in circles please fellas.

It was a classic bait and ambush manouver orchestrated by the Pakis with a dual aim of voilating the LoC and landing a few bombs on the ground while drawing in a response from the defenders that would be hit from the flanks by the exiting which has done a 270 or another force.

We successfully ran this manouver in East Pakistan and once on the western front as well ourselves.
Yes against PAF.

I shall try and find the ref to that.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 06 Mar 2019 15:31

This makes a good reading of how the encounter went and is quite close to what I am putting together as well.
The F-16 ejection was bloody high 26 K... shit at that altitude.... you are going to get unconscious if the gas mask is ripped off your face which I am sure it does by wind factor.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... IrOBI.html

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Mar 2019 15:52

The F16 loss is not a straight forward issue for US.

If the US says PAF did not loose a F16, then IAF, which knows the story will let US know " ...there goes the (F16/F18)sale bird.. flying away..never to come back again".

If it openly comes out that F16 was lost, it will hit he H&D of it's Mil Complex. Along with chances of F16 sales.

Either ways , F16 looses sales.

US will keep it in limbo ... with some back room deal with IAF. LM may now add "14" more and offer F35. US will announce, the ones sold (directly by US, keyword) post 9/11 under End user to attack Taliban airforce is all accounted for. This leaves scope of pre 9/11 sales and ones from Jordon.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 06 Mar 2019 16:14

nam, nothing will happen.
They will stay stuff like we are watching this so closely so closely that we can't see jack.

They operate P3s, tomorrow in a war if they attack and sink our sub, what we are going to do.
Run to Boeing or whoever makes them and say.... but you said weapons cannot be used to kill....

fir kya sabzee katne ki liya khirade the (did they P3s to cut vegetables)

we seriously need to get off this wagon of .... we are so pissed that amraams and F-16s were used against me that I am going to open all your contracts.
Get over it....

We took a F-16 down and they took a Mig-21 down. Fair enough fight.
This is what its all about ...

Lets go induct the Tejas in larger numbers.
Let the Mk2 tejas prototype be flying in 2023.
Lets the AMCA be there in 2030.
Lets get INS Vishal a reality.
Lets be indians (not BJPians and Congressiyas) and push together.

Americans have sold to both sides all the time and they will continue to do so.
We need to stop being dluznl that we are allowed to have american weapons without any restrictions while the Pakis must be leashed with paperwork.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Mar 2019 17:05

Khalsa wrote:nam, nothing will happen.
They will stay stuff like we are watching this so closely so closely that we can't see jack.

They operate P3s, tomorrow in a war if they attack and sink our sub, what we are going to do.
Run to Boeing or whoever makes them and say.... but you said weapons cannot be used to kill....

fir kya sabzee katne ki liya khirade the (did they P3s to cut vegetables)

we seriously need to get off this wagon of .... we are so pissed that amraams and F-16s were used against me that I am going to open all your contracts.
Get over it....

We took a F-16 down and they took a Mig-21 down. Fair enough fight.
This is what its all about ...

Lets go induct the Tejas in larger numbers.
Let the Mk2 tejas prototype be flying in 2023.
Lets the AMCA be there in 2030.
Lets get INS Vishal a reality.
Lets be indians (not BJPians and Congressiyas) and push together.

Americans have sold to both sides all the time and they will continue to do so.
We need to stop being dluznl that we are allowed to have american weapons without any restrictions while the Pakis must be leashed with paperwork.

we are so pissed that amraams and F-16s were used against me

we are pushing this line so that the amerikis light a fire under the paki arse.

we know very well that the pakis will use it against us. Pointing it out may probably muddy the waters for the FATF inspectors.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Mar 2019 17:20

This has not about seeking affirmation/approval/etc from Americans. This is about Paki credibility. We're countering a slippery, devious opponent with definitive responses.

After this, however much Imran Khan may run to anyone, he's not going to get open words of support. King has no clothes on to hide his pretend modesty.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 06 Mar 2019 17:30

Singha wrote:whatever beatings pak gets, khan will use that to seek good behaviour along durand line.

but per the article i found today in TOI, enrollment and arming of tribal levies and lashkars has started in NWFP to use in the post-trumpian afpak in concert with the taliban. they will want a quick victory over the afghan national govt. F16s in mufti might also be used at night where none can verify. the taliban might yet gets its own AF, using the same resources given to fight the taliban!
they already have their artillery as ex-PA.
and intel as ISI.

after a gap of 17 years post-911 , TSP is salivating at the thought of taking control of afghanistan again.

Yup.

Plus, the continued tension at the LOC gives bakis the excuse they need to vacate the Af-Pak border to allow a free hand to the Talibans & lashkars meant for Afghanistan a free hand.

I works out for everyone except India. We have out task cut out before us to plan for a changing Afghanistan and its impact on India. Modi has his work cut out.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Mar 2019 17:30

We want to at least make sure pro India senators and Congressmen can block subsidies to Pakistan. The difference between us and Pakis buying American weaponry, we paid full prices, they were heavily discounted. If we stop the discounts and make sure there is a proper mark up for all spares and weaponry, that itself will weaken Pakistan a lot. It will also mean lesser money to buy Chinese weapons.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 06 Mar 2019 17:31

Aditya_V wrote:Hope we get some SAM's and the AFgani?Pashtuni Awam get to let loose of F- Solah Pilots, all the Hassan's and Noman's.

Best would be to buy cheap Chinese maal to re-arm the warlords.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2019 17:41

@ShivAroor
Follow Follow @ShivAroor
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BREAKING: IAF now officially attributes Pak F-16 kill to Wg Cdr Abhinandan. R-73 missile from his MiG-21 was the only weapon fired by IAF group of 8 fighters that went up against the inbound Pak Air Force jets. Abhi’s final call was to say R-73 locked, before he fell silent.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/11 ... 2200225792

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2019 17:44

@SandeepUnnithan
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Where's the second pilot? Watch what Maj Gen Gafoor, PM Imran Khan said last week. This is one mystery that's not going away.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 3970771968

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Mar 2019 17:48

Post Amraam shots I hope atleast revised ROE are in place where take BVR shots of they come close to the LOC

chola · Post by **chola** » 06 Mar 2019 17:51

Austin wrote:@ShivAroor
Follow Follow @ShivAroor
More
BREAKING: IAF now officially attributes Pak F-16 kill to Wg Cdr Abhinandan. R-73 missile from his MiG-21 was the only weapon fired by IAF group of 8 fighters that went up against the inbound Pak Air Force jets. Abhi’s final call was to say R-73 locked, before he fell silent.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/11 ... 2200225792

Yaas! We are nailing down this narrative. Not that it will change the blind pakis.

But we must make sure that Shazad ud Din is remembered as the brave Paki pilot who died flying his F-16.

Ohm.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Mar 2019 17:57

Look all we know f16 went down, Pakis will know who is thier pilot who went down

Will · Post by **Will** » 06 Mar 2019 18:02

India today is claiming that the IAF has given proof of the F-16 shootdown to the govt. Hope the govt releases some details. Without giving away any secrets of course. High time India swung the narrative in its favour in international circles. The western powers are running down the F-16 kill as it reflects badly on their MIC and affects the chances of their planes in MMRCA 2.0. Time to tumb a nose at them.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2019 18:03

IAF confirms Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman shot down Pakistan F-16 fighter jet

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-03-06

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 06 Mar 2019 18:03

Depends on the kind of proofs. If we run the risk of revealing our key ELINT features, then no need to reveal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Mar 2019 18:05

Aditya_V wrote:Post Amraam shots I hope atleast revised ROE are in place where take BVR shots of they come close to the LOC

thats probably how the 2nd drone was shot down by mki near ganganagar border. its noted place of fall "MW Toba" is more than 10km from the border.

so we put it to death on their side of the border, within the 10km line.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Mar 2019 18:09

Khalsa wrote:This makes a good reading of how the encounter went and is quite close to what I am putting together as well.
The F-16 ejection was bloody high 26 K... shit at that altitude.... you are going to get unconscious if the gas mask is ripped off your face which I am sure it does by wind factor.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... IrOBI.html

for high alt ejections, the pilot is supposed to be held in the seat , with a small drogue parachute unfurled, and given his regular bottled O2 until the sensors detect thicker air at low altitude when the seat falls away, and the pilots own parachute is supposed to activate...all without manual intervention as pilot may be wounded. the ejection seat itself is a computer and life support system rolled into one. plus it has some beacon, food, weapons storage in the back sometimes. only around 3 major cos for fighter ejection seats in the world. while ejecting also the seats brain calculates some 40 factors continuously to trigger first the canopy explosive liner to clear the way and then when and how much to fire, as the plane may be spinning or rolling or in a dive.

the "behind enemy lines" film had some good footage of a hornet seat.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Mar 2019 18:40

Austin wrote:IAF confirms Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman shot down Pakistan F-16 fighter jet

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-03-06

This suggests that to credit a kill to a pilot there is some process of air force officials systematically and bureaucratically going through the evidence and following some rules and guidelines to come up with a yes or no answer. If there is such a process, it would not give away what the evidence is to outline the rules and guidelines in the process. (E.g., we learn a lot by knowing that in the courts, a criminal case must be decided beyond a reasonable doubt, while a civil case, the preponderance of the evidence prevails.)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2019 18:48

We will see in the coming days if US has the Intellectual Honesty to admit that PAF F-16 was used in combat , 1 was shot in combat and AMRAAM was used offensively ... Or will they just save their munna and its reputation

That would be a good beginning atleast to state facts against the wall of evidence IAF/GOI presented so far ......I am not expection any punitive action against Munna though which is fine thats expected

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 06 Mar 2019 20:33

A_Gupta wrote:
Austin wrote:IAF confirms Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman shot down Pakistan F-16 fighter jet

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-03-06
This suggests that to credit a kill to a pilot there is some process of air force officials systematically and bureaucratically going through the evidence and following some rules and guidelines to come up with a yes or no answer. If there is such a process, it would not give away what the evidence is to outline the rules and guidelines in the process. (E.g., we learn a lot by knowing that in the courts, a criminal case must be decided beyond a reasonable doubt, while a civil case, the preponderance of the evidence prevails.)

There is indeed some kind of procedure. Evidences like gun camera, corroboration from fellow pilots, from enemy sources etc are used. RoE also matter. I read that during Korean War, many US pilots were not given credits to a lot of (American claims, so take it FWIW) MiG kills near the MiG alley which happened in the area which USAF had forbidden its pilots to go in and engage (some river was boundary, can't remember the name).

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Mar 2019 20:35

IAF has now officially come on record regarding F16 kill. This is an organisation that gave credit for a F104 kill 20+ years later.

I can see on tweeter as well, IAF coming out categorically. If there was any doubt, IAF would not have been on record.

On the other side, TFTA PAF. No word. Not even credit for Mig21 kill. No view on what happened.

For all the questions been asked, can someone ask the question to PAF. Who shot the Mig21?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 06 Mar 2019 20:45

Khalsa wrote:Regarding the usage of F-16s and AMRAAMs, I think we fellas need to understand a few things.

The proportion of F-16s sold for anti Taliban anti terror related purposes is less than 50%. The mainstay of the F-16s fleet has been there since Soviet Afghan times and I refuse to believe those a/c come under post 9/11 rules. No sir.

Only 14 of the F16s come under such restriction, as per AM Anil Chopra.

naird · Post by **naird** » 06 Mar 2019 20:53

nam wrote:IAF has now officially come on record regarding F16 kill. This is an organisation that gave credit for a F104 kill 20+ years later.

I can see on tweeter as well, IAF coming out categorically. If there was any doubt, IAF would not have been on record.

On the other side, TFTA PAF. No word. Not even credit for Mig21 kill. No view on what happened.

For all the questions been asked, can someone ask the question to PAF. Who shot the Mig21?

Unofficially they are crediting Haroon Siddiqui for shotting down Mig 21 - theres a video of him of being celebrated by Paki folks at their airbase

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 06 Mar 2019 20:54

nam wrote:For all the questions been asked, can someone ask the question to PAF. Who shot the Mig21?

There is someone mentioned (I won't repeat the name here), and another fellow for the second IAF kill

. When you're lying you might as well claim whatever you can. The first guy's rank isn't mentioned, and it has been clarified that they were JF-17 pilots. Presumably the Chinese have fitted AMRAAMS to JF-17

, unkil be warned. The PAF story stinks even in the absence of hard evidence of the F-16 kill in the public domain.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 06 Mar 2019 20:58

must be lovely sight on the AWACS to see the F16 blip moving away and then disappearing !!! wah wah... they should somehow release that vid...kitna maza ayega bhailog. they can suitably edit it and circulate it...PR coup ho jayega.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 06 Mar 2019 21:12

JayS wrote: There is indeed some kind of procedure. Evidences like gun camera, corroboration from fellow pilots, from enemy sources etc are used. RoE also matter. I read that during Korean War, many US pilots were not given credits to a lot of (American claims, so take it FWIW) MiG kills near the MiG alley which happened in the area which USAF had forbidden its pilots to go in and engage (some river was boundary, can't remember the name).

Try Yalu river.

James Michener's book The Bridges at Toko-Ri was made into a movie and won an Oscar and showed carrier pilots and operations during the Korean War. Salter's book about the Korean war that Ramana has quoted in the thread about Black Leader Ajax, AJS "Kala" Sandhu is another great book about what happens in combat and how kills are claimed and sometimes awarded to the wrong person like what happened with Amarjeet Singh Sandhu who should have been credited with 2 kills in 1965.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 06 Mar 2019 21:30

nam wrote:This is an organisation that gave credit for a F104 kill 20+ years later. Ok

Sir can you please provide link for this? Not that i not trust you, but that would be helpful to bash the propaganda

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 06 Mar 2019 21:32

vsunder wrote:
JayS wrote: There is indeed some kind of procedure. Evidences like gun camera, corroboration from fellow pilots, from enemy sources etc are used. RoE also matter. I read that during Korean War, many US pilots were not given credits to a lot of (American claims, so take it FWIW) MiG kills near the MiG alley which happened in the area which USAF had forbidden its pilots to go in and engage (some river was boundary, can't remember the name).
Try Yalu river.

James Michener's book The Bridges at Toko-Ri was made into a movie and won an Oscar and showed carrier pilots and operations during the Korean War. Salter's book about the Korean war that Ramana has quoted in the thread about Black Leader Ajax, AJS "Kala" Sandhu is another great book about what happens in combat and how kills are claimed and sometimes awarded to the wrong person like what happened with Amarjeet Singh Sandhu who should have been credited with 2 kills in 1965.

There's a very exciting tv series dogfight
Wg Co, Abhi's melee was much more intense than most episodes in this....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogfights_(TV_series)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Mar 2019 21:40

another fairly gritty old film on carrier aviators
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_of_the_Intruder

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 06 Mar 2019 21:52

I guess we have 250+ Su-30mki ? This is what the Attorney General told the Supreme Court today...

“We need Rafale jet to defend our country from F-16 fighter planes that recently bombed us. Without Rafale how can we resist them ? Rafale fighter jets are needed although MIG 21 of 1960s performed beautifully against F16”

chola · Post by **chola** » 06 Mar 2019 21:57

Rajiv Lather wrote:I guess we have 250+ Su-30mki ? This is what the Attorney General told the Supreme Court today...

“We need Rafale jet to defend our country from F-16 fighter planes that recently bombed us. Without Rafale how can we resist them ? Rafale fighter jets are needed although MIG 21 of 1960s performed beautifully against F16”

Sorry but this is more of reason to use that money INTERNALLY (on the Tejas, MK1, MK1A, NLCA, MWF) because we have a cushion with the Bisons never mind the huge mass of SU-30MKIs!!!!!

Must everything be twisted for a phoren buy?! I'm sorry but this upsets me.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 06 Mar 2019 21:58

ArjunPandit wrote:[quote="nam"This is an organisation that gave credit for a F104 kill 20+ years later.

Sir can you please provide link for this? Not that i not trust you, but that would be helpful to bash the propaganda[/quote]

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Here is a picture from 1958 of S/L Devayya who is acting as the bar table with his squadron mates.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D040Z9uXcAEIp0_.jpg

Ajjamada Bopayya Devayya shot down a F-104 with his Mystere in 1965. Nothing except a rather obscure canteen in Bangalore is named after him and the bus stand in Madikeri. BIAL should be named after him as is the tradition in many countries naming airports for aviation heroes or people advancing the aviation profession. A chance conversation years after 1965 at a bar in the UK (more precisely at the Joint Services Staff College bar in Latimer, UK) between a PAF pilot and an IAF pilot (Gp. Capt. M. M. Sinha) led to the unraveling of what happened to Devayya and the recognition of his feat leading to his being awarded a MVC years later posthumously. This story is re-told by ACM P. C. Lal a rather careful and meticulous person with collating and collecting details in his book "My Years in the IAF". I like the way people write--" I know this is correct but I want to know....." I mean is there some part of the psyche that doubts facts?? Devayya hailed from Coorg(Kodagu) which has produced many fine warriors. His wife has written poignantly of him making low passes(buzzing) their house in Kodagu in the early days of their marriage. Arjan Singh also did that and was almost court martialled. He did it to boost the morale of a fellow officer.

The second pointer that emerged was from Fricker's book, Fizzle Force who having access to PAF records wrote that the only credit to the IAF for that 5.30am raid over Sargodha was a F-104 being shot down. Omi Taneja the CO immediately knew after reading Fricker's account that this had to be "Tubby" Devayya as he was missing and nobody had claimed a kill. The F104 pilot was again shot down over Amritsar and taken prisoner in 1971 and retired as a AVM. Devayya was a standby pilot that day. Due to engine trouble two Mysteres could not take off and Devayya had to borrow an a/c from 32 squadron and so was late over Sargodha when the rest of the raid was exiting.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 06 Mar 2019 22:41

Rajiv Lather wrote:I guess we have 250+ Su-30mki ? This is what the Attorney General told the Supreme Court today...

“We need Rafale jet to defend our country from F-16 fighter planes that recently bombed us. Without Rafale how can we resist them ? Rafale fighter jets are needed although MIG 21 of 1960s performed beautifully against F16”

well the kidvai road cabal is in their own world. Majority of them wont even know how to google things.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Mar 2019 22:45

if any one says to you: "oh no old decrepit Mig 21"

just say

"no, its a super fast, highly agile, almost invisible, digitally re-engineered and souped up 3.5 generation ass kicker with a long and fine pedigree flown by some of the best fighter jocks in the business"... "even the mighty USAF fears the bison!"

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Mar 2019 22:50

1. Assume that the killed F-16 left unambigously-identifiable-as-F-16-parts as debris.
2. Apparently no photographs of such debris has leaked out of Pakistan.
3. Conclude that the remains of the plane are in a lightly populated area.

Since everyone is into satellite photography

perhaps one can look in lightly populated areas for signs of this?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Mar 2019 22:55

the awacs would have tracked the f16 till it disintegrated and fell to earth... it would therefore know where it fell
plenty of sats up there to take a picture but may not be conclusive
no need to find the wreckage - the electronic trail is enough

I am sure that all the air attaches in Delhi (US, UK, Fr, Ru) have discussed this with their IAF counterpart over a whiskey at the club already

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Mar 2019 23:21

Lalmohan wrote:if any one says to you: "oh no old decrepit Mig 21"

just say

"no, its a super fast, highly agile, almost invisible, digitally re-engineered and souped up 3.5 generation ass kicker with a long and fine pedigree flown by some of the best fighter jocks in the business"... "even the mighty USAF fears the bison!"

I wrote on Twitter.
MiG -21 Bison gored F-16 Viper!