MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Mar 2019 10:05

mi17 has two reliable engines, was flying at low altitude from srinagar to the south in clear weather

One has to check past track record i have seldom read of mi17 crashes anywhere

There could be more this crash

We avg no more than one mi17 crash a year despite heavy use

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Mar 2019 10:08

It could also be pilot error since they were scrambling to pick up a downed pilot, pre flight inspections would have been skipped and the pilots would have been extreme pressure to reach Wing Commander, his aircraft had taken from the same base as the MI17 and these guys were on a scramble SAR mission, highly likely under such stressful conditions some mistake could have been made, remember we were not war and PAF escalated, the Mig's would have on ORP but the SAR helicopter may not have been kept in the same SAR readiness.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 07 Mar 2019 10:40

Slowly but surely the tide seems to be turning...

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... r-kashmir/

For the record, Pakistan continues to deny one of its F-16s was shot down. But denials notwithstanding, the evidence seems increasingly compelling against Pakistan’s denial.

bhalluka · Post by **bhalluka** » 07 Mar 2019 11:11

Saw Pakistan's F16 going down: Abhinandan Varthaman during debriefing

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 07 Mar 2019 11:16

UlanBatori wrote:Bugger is sure the MiG was downed by an AMRAAM? How did the pilot escape unscathed?

(Ulan Batori is a Mongolian-based yak herder, dung-sweeper and Strategic Affairs Analyst for UNCN, the Duniya's greatest and most accurate source for accurate in-depth probing analysis. )

I bow to you and your wisdom UlanBatori.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Mar 2019 11:18

bhalluka wrote:Saw Pakistan's F16 going down: Abhinandan Varthaman during debriefing

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Interesting

The India Air Force (IAF) has said in an official statement that Pakistani F16 jets had fired several AIM120 AMRAAM missiles during the aerial battle to target its planes that had gone to counter the air intrusion.

“The use of F16 by PAF and multiple launches of AMRAAM were conclusively observed during the combat. Prompt and correct tactical action by Su30 aircraft, in response to AMRAAM launch, defeated the missiles,” the IAF said.
Sources said at least four AMRAAM missiles were recorded in the air but none of the other fighter jets were hit after they took evasive measures and turned away. It is not clear why other Indian jets in the air — Su30MKIs and Mirage 2000s were part of the defending package — did not engage their long-range weapons onto the enemy aircraft. Under standard circumstances, fighter jets are not authorised to engage targets flying well within enemy territory.

Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, the pilot who let off an R73 missile from his MiG21 fighter jet in an aerial combat over Nowshera last week, has said in his debriefing that he saw a Pakistan Air Force F16 going down on the other side of the border.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 07 Mar 2019 11:25

Khalsa ji pranam.

This is a screen shot from explosion from a video available on Twitter; the video maker had zoomed in.

From the same video you when zoomed to normal level, you can clearly see the remnant of the previous explosion (in red) with the new explosion (in green)

This is the original video from twitter.
https://twitter.com/ajayjandyal/status/ ... 5787124736

You can make it the trail of the weapon which hit the exploding plane. It is a straight contrail.

The 1st explosion as seen from youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOdrITApv0&fbclid=

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Mar 2019 11:26

Chalo its wrap.
Wg. Cdre Abhinandhan saw the F-16 going down after being hit by R-73.
Jai Hind!!!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2019 11:35

Singha wrote:mi17 has two reliable engines, was flying at low altitude from srinagar to the south in clear weather

One has to check past track record i have seldom read of mi17 crashes anywhere

There could be more this crash

We avg no more than one mi17 crash a year despite heavy use

I suspect it was shot down by Jihadis using MANPADS ( Anza ) , News report says there was explosion and the chopper then broke mid air and fell down , Choppers dont just explode mid air either it must be external like manpads or internal if it was carrying ammo that inadvertently exploded

Since it happened at the same day with PAF encounter I am more inclined to believe the manpads theory

Reason we need MAWS and CM on all our chopper possible even DIRCM , In Kashmir ISI must be having trained modules of small team to operate manpads

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Mar 2019 11:39

these "teams" need to be hunted down and eliminated. no amt of countermeasures will be truly effective in a hilly area offering advantages of manpad kamandus like the PKK attack on turkish gunship showed.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Mar 2019 11:41

As I said lets wait for enquiry report, possible given the circumstances this could have a been a crash, this was SAR team taking off on real short notice after a suprise attack.

If it was Manpad, its bad news, we must hunt down anyone involved even in smuggling it and it calls some more strikes on Pakistan military

bhalluka · Post by **bhalluka** » 07 Mar 2019 11:42

They had it for a while. Probably an escalation option kept in reserve.

Anti-aircraft missile recovered from J&K terrorists

https://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/14jk1.htm

Pakistan needs to pay for this!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2019 11:47

Aditya_V wrote:
bhalluka wrote:Saw Pakistan's F16 going down: Abhinandan Varthaman during debriefing

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst
Interesting

The India Air Force (IAF) has said in an official statement that Pakistani F16 jets had fired several AIM120 AMRAAM missiles during the aerial battle to target its planes that had gone to counter the air intrusion.

“The use of F16 by PAF and multiple launches of AMRAAM were conclusively observed during the combat. Prompt and correct tactical action by Su30 aircraft, in response to AMRAAM launch, defeated the missiles,” the IAF said.
Sources said at least four AMRAAM missiles were recorded in the air but none of the other fighter jets were hit after they took evasive measures and turned away. It is not clear why other Indian jets in the air — Su30MKIs and Mirage 2000s were part of the defending package — did not engage their long-range weapons onto the enemy aircraft. Under standard circumstances, fighter jets are not authorised to engage targets flying well within enemy territory.

Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, the pilot who let off an R73 missile from his MiG21 fighter jet in an aerial combat over Nowshera last week, has said in his debriefing that he saw a Pakistan Air Force F16 going down on the other side of the border.

From the incident it is clear now that the wing man of Bison was a MKI and perhaps other type

PAF in anger fired 4 AMRAAM against the MKI once it saw its F-16 hit , Expecting atleast 1 would hit its target. Must be a surprise becauase IAF was not expecting an AMRAAM launch or a BVR engagement near LOC.

Next time they wont be surprised and would take counter action.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2019 11:52

US justified F-16 sale to Pakistan in 2008 as deterrence against India

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 279161.cms

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 07 Mar 2019 11:55

Austin wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Interesting

From the incident it is clear now that the wing man of Bison was a MKI and perhaps other type

PAF in anger fired 4 AMRAAM against the MKI once it saw its F-16 hit , Expecting atleast 1 would hit its target. Must be a surprise becauase IAF was not expecting an AMRAAM launch or a BVR engagement near LOC.

Next time they wont be surprised and would take counter action.

The AAMRAAMs are in a different section than the dogfight and the F-16.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Mar 2019 12:29

bhalluka wrote:They had it for a while. Probably an escalation option kept in reserve.

Anti-aircraft missile recovered from J&K terrorists

https://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/14jk1.htm

Pakistan needs to pay for this!

I never knew this

bhalluka · Post by **bhalluka** » 07 Mar 2019 12:58

IMO not very likely that Wing Commander Abhinandan's Mig-21 was brought down by an AMRAAM or a SAM or a cannon.

UBji's stall theories (except the debris ingestion) most likely brought it down.

Hopefully the Wing Commander's first hand account will come out soon.

Here is HD footage from the crash site that corroborates my points above

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQEiD0PrsKg

Another takeaway is that the Pakis have completely changed the demographics of this part of POK.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2019 13:03

bhalluka wrote:They had it for a while. Probably an escalation option kept in reserve.

Anti-aircraft missile recovered from J&K terrorists

https://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/14jk1.htm

Pakistan needs to pay for this!

They would have some elite units in J&K trained for MANPADS and Anza in dismantled state to be ready to use in scenario faced recently.

Chopper will be a prime target more than fighters as they fly low and slow and within the knowledge grasp of jihadis to shoot down , The Terrain is quite favaurable for the jihadis and local support in abundance.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 07 Mar 2019 13:03

Aditya_V wrote:As I said lets wait for enquiry report, possible given the circumstances this could have a been a crash, this was SAR team taking off on real short notice after a suprise attack.

If it was Manpad, its bad news, we must hunt down anyone involved even in smuggling it and it calls some more strikes on Pakistan military

We know for sure it was a SAR mission?

wig · Post by **wig** » 07 Mar 2019 13:04

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... wPQOI.html

Sleep deprived, choked, beaten up: How IAF pilot Abhinandan held off Pak grilling
The official, who is part of a team debriefing Varthaman after he walked back into India across the Wagah border on March 1, said the Wing Commander was deprived of sleep, choked and even beaten up by his captors in Pakistan.

extracted from the above article

During his captivity, Varthaman was made to stand for long hours and subjected to loud music to increase his discomfort, the official said, requesting anonymity.
He added that as Pakistani officers tried to extract information from him about the frequencies that the IAF uses to transmit messages, deployment of fighter jets and logistical arrangements, Varthaman held back.
All Indian fighter pilots are taught to hold back for as long as possible when captured, so that transmitting frequencies and deployments can be changed in the first 24 hours to deny the adversary any advantage, the officer said.
“Wing Commander Abhinandan did exactly that,” the officer said.
At least three to four separate teams comprising a select group of officers are debriefing Wing Commander Varthaman on various aspects of his captivity.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2019 13:05

VikramS wrote:
Austin wrote:
From the incident it is clear now that the wing man of Bison was a MKI and perhaps other type

PAF in anger fired 4 AMRAAM against the MKI once it saw its F-16 hit , Expecting atleast 1 would hit its target. Must be a surprise becauase IAF was not expecting an AMRAAM launch or a BVR engagement near LOC.

Next time they wont be surprised and would take counter action.

The AAMRAAMs are in a different section than the dogfight and the F-16.

They said initially that 2 AMRAAM were fired one hit Bison and 1 missed his wingman.

Perhaps the 4 fired must be in a different sector in a different encounter

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Mar 2019 13:05

bhalluka wrote:IMO not very likely that Wing Commander Abhinandan's Mig-21 was brought down by an AMRAAM or a SAM or a cannon.

UBji's stall theories (except the debris injection) most likely brought it down.

Hopefully the Wing Commander's first hand account will come out soon.

Here is HD footage from the crash site that corroborates my points above

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQEiD0PrsKg

Another takeaway is that the Pakis have completely changed the demographics of this part of POK.

Very clear from this videos pictures of the aircraft that this is completely different from the one with bent Tailfin to cover the flag and engine cowling, the Engine protection sheet did not belong to the Mig 21 Bison, notice the complete fuselage of the Mig 21

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 Mar 2019 13:34

From twitter - Amb. Zafar Hilaly, Former Pakistani envoy to Italy says that Pakistan has captured a pilot of Israeli Air Force flying Indian aircraft that violated territorial integrity of Pakistan and was shot down by Pakistani jets. Israel appealed to US and Modi accepted humiliating retreat.
(Link to video is not provided here to save bandwidth)
(Wow! some Pakis are real Pakis)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Mar 2019 13:41

^^ They cant admit that an Indian shot down a F-16 so they are setting up the story for an Israeli to come in?

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 07 Mar 2019 13:51

Deleted, as it seems to be posted and discussed earlier.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 07 Mar 2019 13:52

Karan M wrote:^^ They cant admit that an Indian shot down a F-16 so they are setting up the story for an Israeli to come in?

Yup. The worst in the baki mind is a defeat at the hands of a yindu. Anything is better than the Yindu even the Israelis.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Mar 2019 13:59

Amber G. wrote:From twitter - Amb. Zafar Hilaly, Former Pakistani envoy to Italy says that Pakistan has captured a pilot of Israeli Air Force flying Indian aircraft that violated territorial integrity of Pakistan and was shot down by Pakistani jets. Israel appealed to US and Modi accepted humiliating retreat.
(Link to video is not provided here to save bandwidth)
(Wow! some Pakis are real Pakis)

^^^

My sources tell me that Captain Ramnarayan Goldstein who was in deputation from CIA was caught by Pakistanis.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 07 Mar 2019 14:04

Anujan wrote:
Amber G. wrote:From twitter - Amb. Zafar Hilaly, Former Pakistani envoy to Italy says that Pakistan has captured a pilot of Israeli Air Force flying Indian aircraft that violated territorial integrity of Pakistan and was shot down by Pakistani jets. Israel appealed to US and Modi accepted humiliating retreat.
(Link to video is not provided here to save bandwidth)
(Wow! some Pakis are real Pakis)
^^^

My sources tell me that Captain Ramnarayan Goldstein who was in deputation from CIA was caught by Pakistanis.

Your sources are wrong. It was Air Marshal George Ganganagar Goldstein, a Yahindu of Yanqui descent who was shot down flying F22 using a slingshot by a Baki goat herder. The video of the incident is not available ast to what the goat herder was doing with his favourite goat would be illegal in 112 nations.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Mar 2019 14:18

nice to see Ramnarayan Goldstein found a new job!

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 07 Mar 2019 14:23

UlanBatori wrote:One missed, the other missed the Air Asia flight and hit a helicopter instead. .....

@UB, is this info / speculation correct?
The info available is that the Mi-17 was near Srinagar airfield at the time. Also, was an airliner targetted / was in the vicinity during the aerial combat?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Mar 2019 14:24

nairsaab, please to have a sip of zam zam cola, the yak herder is indulging in his favourite past time onlee

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 07 Mar 2019 14:38

First of all I am happy to await the official word from IAF spokesperson and I will take their word for it.

Now ... while I am waiting lets indulge in some observations from what we can see.
On Twitter, Anshul marks this with a circle and at this moment I am convinced that the RPG warhead just came out of this hole.

Looks like an exit wound yeah.... See below.

Now hold ... look at the same wound. No longer circular and completely a diff shape from an angle.
You and I are holding ourselves hostage to best efforts from a phone, static photo, lack of photography skills.
See below.

Last one.
See the structure going up that will hold the tail rotor. yes that has been ripped off cause that ghash and open wound.

Wait wait ... last not least.
He posted this image on twitter ... therefore reinforcing the narrative that this looks like a hit in the backside.
A drop to a new low as they start operating with weapons such as this.

Folks, don't let your mind wander. Keep calm , breathe and let the CoI take its course.

Even if the Pakistanis kicked off a simultaneous downing of our chopper via a Manpad. Fine, kudos to them for really making us looking in a thousand directions. Next time how about we launch a Nirbhay into the bedroom of Dawood Ibrahim and a Brahmos in the window of Masood azhar and Jags dropping bombs outside Div HQ at Gilgit. We need to outhink these ******** not match them.

By the way, Anshul aka Hukum is a true son of the soil and bats for us. I am proud to read his tweets with interest. He is one of the good guys.
Lets truly move off the Mil-17 unless we have observable proof of findings released by IAF.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2019 15:44

Good find Khalsa , Look like the tail boom was hit and it broke mid way and with no tail rotor , This could have cause the breaking of chopper in air as media reported.

Even a non explosive hit with the hole of that size would cause hydraulics failure cause tail rotor to fail ......... Perhaps some one trained to know what is the best way to bring down a chopper with 100 % certainty

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Mar 2019 15:50

Guys lets wait till the inquiry, these guys were taking off on short notice in SAR mission, we are not at war, yes PAF was expected to respond, but they had no idea they will have get ready so fast and go on a SAR mission and try and rescue WIngo Commander before he is captured, I doubt MI 17's are kept at ORP readiness like fighters, it is possible some engineering mistake like switches kept in the wrong slot like 1 SU 30 crash or Pilot in his anxiousness to rescue made a mistake.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 07 Mar 2019 16:03

bhalluka wrote:Hopefully the Wing Commander's first hand account will come out soon.

Somehow I feel that the Wing Commander's first hand account will never come out till both he and the Bison have retired from the IAF.

Otherwise, when the IAF's own chief has declined to comment on 'ongoing operations' then below is the 'first hand account' for all practical purposes.

Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, the pilot who let off an R73 missile from his MiG21 fighter jet in an aerial combat over Nowshera last week, has said in his debriefing that he saw a Pakistan Air Force F16 going down on the other side of the border.

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 07 Mar 2019 16:09

bhalluka wrote:They had it for a while. Probably an escalation option kept in reserve.

Anti-aircraft missile recovered from J&K terrorists

https://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/14jk1.htm

Pakistan needs to pay for this!

This is a 2002 article.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 07 Mar 2019 16:13

Lalmohan wrote:nairsaab, please to have a sip of zam zam cola, the yak herder is indulging in his favourite past time onlee

It certainly appears to be a bit of a flight of fancy..
On speculation that the Mi-17 taking off for CSAR, do the timelines match? Also, there appeared to be a civilian on-board.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Mar 2019 16:19

Yes, the The Helicopter took just after 10:00 AM when the Wing Co had parachuted.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 07 Mar 2019 16:19

Sir, the civilian was on the ground per media reports.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 07 Mar 2019 17:35

Interestingly Pakis tried to break Wg Cdr Abhi into revealing frequencies at which ground control communicates with pilots

IAF SOP is to change frequencies within 24 hrs of a pilot being captured. Abhi tried to hold them off for as long as he could on this