MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 17:33

ACM Sohail Aman pic from 2015. seems to be wearing that white light undercap. Go-karting circuits give that too , to prevent sweat & oil from hair marking the sponge inside helmet. to a ghazi looking to lash out, it would look like the cloth patka wrap that younger sikhs wear.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Mar 2019 17:36

SidSoma - I would hypothesize the following

1. strike package 1: Mirages with some sort of precision munition, being held behind IB
2. strike package 2: JF17's with a2g weapons, being held behind IB
3. strike package 3: F16D plus 2-3 F16A/C's being held behind IB
4. CAP package 1: 4 x F16's above Mangla dam (well within Pak)
5. Eeriye: somewhere over pindi in the rear

the PAF battle manager rotated the three strike packages around between IB and LOC to probe the IAF response to find a weak spot, but Su30's, M2k's and Bisons came up quickly and closed off any easy access across the LOC

the mangla cap then fires amraams towards the Su30's with a big a-o-a at very long range to create a window of opportunity, but the evasive manoeuvres defeat the amraams. It is likely that the plan was for F16 strike package to lead and then be followed by M3 and bandar if things went well. but things did not go well for the PAF...

... the F16 D and its wing fizzlers snuck over the LOC and dropped their PGM's as iron bombs (presumably the IAF/IA has these) thinking only the Bisons will be in the space and will not pick a fight with the F16's... or they will high tail it out and over the IB before anything can happen

thinking they had made their point and turned around, they were suddenly brown shalwared to find a bison (or two?) on their mush... (the IAF battle plan would have been to deter an attack, wingcmdr vartaman as the man on the spot decided to go for the D and take the shot, presumably at this stage the D was on our side of the LOC or just over it

... the eeriye simultaneously tells the CAP to engage and cover the F16D, whilst the M3's and bandars are sent home asap...

...bison presses home the attack on the D but lucky targeting from the CAP gets him. the fact that its not a devastating explosion killing him suggests that he almost beat the amraam (and therefore the cap was still quite far away)

all PAF assets now scoot asap back over the IB whilst IAF resumes CAP over nowshera as per battle plan.

limited engagement with strict rules and limited scope for escalation

other point to note:
looking at the footage of what appears to be the F16 drop tank again, the jagged metal is more likely to be a piece of the wing or fuselage rather than the pylon. it is skin rather than member, so suggesting that the tank was not dropped but blasted/ripped off the fuselage

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Mar 2019 17:38

Another link when WC Abhi was been taken away from the crowd. Not linking it here.

Direct link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETkxbP9aqZo

Constant words about doosra bhanda..

Warning: Distressing scenes, WC Abhi is injured. Watch with caution.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 11 Mar 2019 17:48

Under what circumstances would a Squadron's CO Sahab normally ride in a two-seater?

- He was not fully operational due to health/long leave, so he sat in the back seat?
- He wanted to direct the whole engagement as 'Air Boss' from the back seat?
- He was the one tasked with shooting down an Indian fighter, so he wanted to concentrate on flying and so was carrying a backseater as WSO?
- He was carrying 'somebody important' as an observer.

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Mar 2019 17:52

Look mama what I found.. with dates

Can someone save it before it gets taken down...

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Mar 2019 17:53

The same afsar who was talking pictures of mig 21 is near the F16 drop tank. What a coincidence to find a drop tank near Mig21 crash.

Can anyone geo locate the place ?

All of these photos are from the same camera. Someone was running around taking photos...with dates. I found more photos of Mig 21 debris with dates and the same afsar..

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 11 Mar 2019 18:04

Gents,

This is parachute canopy from MB ejection seats. Guess which aircraft has MB seats and which doesn't.

Ahem

Can anyone link to videos where eyewitness said Parachutists had Indian flags?

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 11 Mar 2019 18:31

at the effing pakis who lynched their own piously Islamic f16 pilot sporting beard,beating him to pulp thinking he was a "Sikh" coming down in a 'Bhaarti' "Tricolor" standard issue ACES ejection seat parachutes of f16.
The Mig 21 Bison had the russian SK-1 ejection seats with bicolor parachutes(this is dutty Yahoodi level saajizh i say lol).

The poor pakjabi bugger with his beard and "Sikh" pagdi like white helmet innercap must have threatened them with his hand gun in "chaste punjabi" after which the more Paki than the Pakjabi(hahahaha

) Horan-Kotla Mirpuris snuffed him as a gang.

Rishi wrote:
Khalsa wrote: ....A lot of the videos mention that they recogonised because they saw the Indian Flag on the parachutes. I want to go facepalm at that time. ....
Hey Sammy,
Martin Baker seats have tricolour parachutes (orange, white, dark green). Connect the dots?

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Mar 2019 18:35

The same afsar near the Mig 21 engine.. I am now thinking drop tank & this engine piece fell in a different place compared to the main body in Horran.

Ever since I saw the video and images, I could not help notice this area is much greener than Horran village. May be I am wrong.

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Mar 2019 18:41

We need to geolocate this place. I have a feeling this is a different place.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 11 Mar 2019 18:46

nam wrote:We need to geolocate this place. I have a feeling this is a different place.

Check Samir @obretix geolocation guesses

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 11 Mar 2019 18:49

Baba of Horran seems to have mistaken Abhinandan for a Sikh (due to the mooch?) He says the pilot they handed over was Sikh

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Mar 2019 19:00

nam wrote:Look mama what I found.. with dates

Can someone save it before it gets taken down...

Nam ji, any more pictures from this series? I want to try and get some more identifying features.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 19:03

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACES_II

F16 uses ACES2 seat as does all of usaf a/c

both both the new and old canopies used by ACES2 have the indian tricolour

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display ... tion-seat/

http://www.parachuteshop.com/C-9_surplus_parachute.htm

https://www.qimtek.co.uk/sites/default/ ... 0small.JPG

I think NATO has this colour scheme same across all countries to have a common rescue manual and maybe pattern matching from imagery sats & drones looking for downed flyers.

so thing of it this way. 2-3 indian tricolour parachutes comes down in same area, both pilots wear the same kind of dress and wings. one looks pukka sardarji with a white cap and beard......

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 11 Mar 2019 19:06

in which vid does the person allude to tricolor ( color of the parachute??).

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 11 Mar 2019 19:08

Singha wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACES_II

F16 uses ACES2 seat as does all of usaf a/c

both both the new and old canopies used by ACES2 have the indian tricolour

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display ... tion-seat/

http://www.parachuteshop.com/C-9_surplus_parachute.htm

https://www.qimtek.co.uk/sites/default/ ... 0small.JPG

I think NATO has this colour scheme same across all countries to have a common rescue manual and maybe pattern matching from imagery sats & drones looking for downed flyers.

My bad! I had assumed MB seats were standard across NATO. Mea culpa. But- tricolour parachute point seems to stand

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Mar 2019 19:08

plus survival - orange to be found, green/sand to hide...
parachute would be something you'd need to rig up emergency shelter

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Mar 2019 19:08

Damn all this discussion cause those aircraft fell 3-4 Km west, atleast the wind could have blown the parachuting pilots east. Such is karma

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Mar 2019 19:09

...and what colour are IAF parachutes, especially on Russian heritage ejection seats?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 19:14

^^ it cannot be any other way - both martin baker and ACES use the same tricolour parachute. JF17 uses martin baker.

Mig21 uses a seat called KM-1. someone from IAF can clarify what colour chute the Migs use. It could be white or 101% halal green

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Mar 2019 19:15

Ardeshir wrote: Nam ji, any more pictures from this series? I want to try and get some more identifying features.

This is another one:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1YWSYxXcAAtM9j.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1YWSZmWwAAHV0F.jpg

Hope this helps.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 11 Mar 2019 19:16

Lalmohan wrote:...and what colour are IAF parachutes, especially on Russian heritage ejection seats?

White and orange

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 19:23

russian su24 parachute in syria was white with a orange ring.
Mig25 braking parachute is also white and orange.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 19:24

so with pilots falling KMS away from the planes, not a surprise the awaam pounced on all pilots as yindu seeing the bright parachute colours.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 11 Mar 2019 19:25

FSolah ACES2 parachute (2016 photo)

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Mar 2019 19:25

Rishi wrote:
nam wrote:We need to geolocate this place. I have a feeling this is a different place.
Check Samir @obretix geolocation guesses

Thanks. Based on his attempt, it is a different place. South West of Horran.

https://twitter.com/obretix/status/1102559186121080833

Given that the tail with heavy engine cannot "glide", this is the area where the Mig21 must have been shot. WC Abhi must have been trying to fly back and got hit. Flew North till horran then the Mig 21 came down.

Drop tanks generally fall behind the position of the jet..

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 11 Mar 2019 19:42

i have a theory... Indian flag is Saffron/white/green ...Paki flag is green/white. So if Paki flag painted on the plane, white will be next to grey( the a/c color). In the pic of the engine/with a PA soldier/old man looking on, I see white next to the grey ( at a point where the structure is bent). Had the picture been taken from where old man is standing , the flag will be visible. In the pic , i see white bordered by grey. Do u guys also see white/grey combo??

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 11 Mar 2019 19:44

i beleive anybody who maintains Mig 21 or F16 can easily tell from the engine pic as to the real identity??

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 11 Mar 2019 19:49

manjgu wrote:i beleive anybody who maintains Mig 21 or F16 can easily tell from the engine pic as to the real identity??

The only non-MiG21 part from videos and pix so far seems to be the drop tank. Everything else has been traced to the MiG. (Please correct me if I am wrong?)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Mar 2019 19:55

Habal, very good find. It could be him, despite the difference in name.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 11 Mar 2019 19:56

habal wrote:kindly peruse through this video

https://youtu.be/lpg0ULKQQQs

W/C Shahbaz Haider of No 19 Sherdils Squadron. PAF F-16 pilot.

As per the disreputable site you may have visited:

A few years ago, he received the best Combat Commander trophy at the Graduation Ceremony of Combat Commanders School (CCS).

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 11 Mar 2019 20:13

Rishi wrote:Gents,

This is parachute canopy from MB ejection seats. Guess which aircraft has MB seats and which doesn't.

Ahem

Can anyone link to videos where eyewitness said Parachutists had Indian flags?

Ohh shit!!! I can now see how Pakistanis would mistake their own pilot as Indian

This is so ridiculous! PAF would now have to replace all their parachutes in F-16s to avoid getting lynched by their own people in future

On a side note, this sadly kills the theory that POK people killed the PAF pilot because of hatred for PAF. It was an honest mistake, nothing else.

ankitash · Post by **ankitash** » 11 Mar 2019 20:13

Rishi wrote: Gents,

This is parachute canopy from MB ejection seats. Guess which aircraft has MB seats and which doesn't.

Ahem

Can anyone link to videos where eyewitness said Parachutists had Indian flags?

Here's a source about Abhinandan's capture - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47397418

Horran's village chief recounted Wednesday's dramatic capture in an interview with the BBC.

"My objective was to capture the pilot alive. I had seen the Indian flag on his parachute and knew he was Indian," said Mohammad Razzaq Chaudhry.

Dumb Pakis

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Mar 2019 20:15

Lalmohan wrote:..bison presses home the attack on the D but lucky targeting from the CAP gets him. the fact that its not a devastating explosion killing him suggests that he almost beat the amraam (and therefore the cap was still quite far away)

If self-goals counted, India would be World Cup champs.
Can you please point me to the EVIDENCE that the MiG was hit by a Paki missile, please? Until then, the only explanation is that it was a piece of debris from the F-16 that hit the MiG.
This thing about "only a slight explosion, nearly missed" is pretty far-fetched.
As for the 2 Pakis bailing out, the explanation is very simple: As soon as they realized that the MiG's missile had a lock and their soaring for the sun did not work (or maybe they went into a stall) they did the Paki thing and leaped out. Missile hit well after they bailed out. Reason why there is no large F-16 wreckage is that it disintegrated at around 300 meters and the pieces just fluttered down over a wide area. But very clearly the MiG pilot did no such thing: he stayed on until after he had confirmed the hit on the F-16.
So sequence:
Strike Package blah-blah
Fire AMRAAMs generally across the LOC.
F-16 shines laser on Brigade HQ so the Strike Package could glide their laser-guided bombs to the target.
Indian CAP sees them, and shakes off the AMRAAMs.
Strike Package turns tail - but first set of bums have been released.
F-16 turns tail when they realize they are the prey.
Laser TRIES to keep up (see early descriptions of modern LGB) but quickly loses. Probably the F-16 herrows forgot to turn off the laser guidance, so their own bombs now glided nicely down to whatever the laser was illuminating - 0n the Pak side. You see why those POKis were so mad?
F-16 busy trying to dodge the MiG, does climb and dive in desperation. MiG STAYS ON TAIL, and closes in before locking to fire. Once missile locked, warning goes off in F-16 cockpit, and herrows PUNCH OUT.

Missile hits F-16 tailpipe directly in front of MiG> Here maybe WingCdr Abhi was surprised: He would have expected the F-16 to pull a last desperate dive, but NOOOOOOO!!!! The herrows were already sailing through the air! Plane stayed straight and level. Right in front of the MiG which was closing at Mach 0.5 relative speed.
Whammo!!! R-73 blows the F-16 apart.
MiG unfortunately has to fly through the detonation, which spreads at ~ Mach 10. Lucky that the cockpit did not get hit. Plane becomes unfliable, MiG pilot ejects.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Mar 2019 20:18

The main remaining question is WHY the POKis killed the pilots. Because they thought they were INDIAN, or PAKISTANI? I lean towards the latter. The guy whom they called "Sikh" was beaten up, and may be the one who died in hospital. The other one was lynched and buried because they KNEW he was PAF.

The Indian also got into some exchange of pleasantries but I think they only intended to capture him and hand him over.

Point is, with the pilots clearly identified as Pakis, they had no great intention to hand over to PA, at least in one case - and sadly I think that was the WingCo bin Air Marshal.

Another point: WingCdr Abhi took out his pistol and scared the POKis before trying to make a run for it.
WHY DID THE PAF PILOTS NOT DO SO?
Another point: Now I see that F-16 parachute is SAFFRON!!!!!!

So they saw these two SAFFRON parachutes gliding in across the LOC and went to greet/rob them in the traditional manner in which POKis greet visitors - then they saw those were PAF, so they killed them.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 20:22

the parachute even has a hole in middle, with strings forming the hated ashoka chakra.

surely a no brainer for the awaam swarming around to thrash the kuffar.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 11 Mar 2019 20:26

3 pilots ejected. 2 in one colour parachute and 1 in a different colour. Surely 1 TFTA has downed 2 SDRES in saffron parachutes. Bhat is there to think so much before lynching, hainji?

naird · Post by **naird** » 11 Mar 2019 20:27

habal wrote:kindly peruse through this video

https://youtu.be/lpg0ULKQQQs

W/C Shahbaz Haider of No 19 Sherdils Squadron. PAF F-16 pilot.

Excellent find Habal. This is him allright. Everything tallies. So we got the name correct but messed up the last name. Looks like it was a false flag operation by Pakis. They deliberately leaked with false last name to make sure we trip, and we did trip ! They must have thought we would have known the name of the pilot through intelligence and wanted to discredit the information. Lets spread the word gentlemen ! Let the PAF pilot come forth if hes alive !

Shivaji · Post by **Shivaji** » 11 Mar 2019 20:28

This video from India today has its Pakistani reporter visiting Mig 21 crash site. Can be of help to understand geography of the region. Has interaction with local as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7blwdy ... e=youtu.be

Apologies if already posted.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 21:17

this was the bholari sherdils group pic in 2018 - pilots will move around and the pakis being as devious as they are, can put up any strawman.

another one older one