Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Mar 2019 09:30

SriKumar wrote:FAA's (in)action reminds me of the time 787 was released and had issues with Lithium batteries malfunctioning. They grounded the 787 craft only after All Nippon Airways grounded them, after 2-3 flight emergencies. In other words, behind the curve on their job to keep public safe. I cannot imagine any pilot feeling OK flying this aircraft.

the dominant factor at play here is not flight safety but crass ameriki commercial considerations like single aisle twin engine market share and cancelled orders for the 737max.

This particular and huge market segment is balanced on a razor's edge between boeing and airbus and both are ruthless, dog eat dog competitors.

saip · Post by **saip** » 11 Mar 2019 10:02

Since taking office I have been very strict on Commercial Aviation. Good news - it was just reported that there were Zero deaths in 2017, the best and safest year on record!

Potus -- 1/2/2018
I hope he is going to be VERY STRICT with Boeing now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 12:32

from airliners.net.
another small airline cayman air has also grounded its 2 MAXes.
flights have been cancelled in china as necessary if no replacement a/c found.

Current operators in China:
Joy Air- 1
Air China- 15
Fuzhou Airlines- 2
China Southern- 24
China Eastern- 3
Kunming- 2
Hainan Airlines- 11
Shandong Airlines- 7
Shanghai Airlines- 11
Shenzhen Airlines- 5
Xiamen Airlines- 10

That's a total of 91 MAX currently flying in China. Few more are pending delivery over the next few weeks, should be parked at factory now.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 11 Mar 2019 13:47

FAA is an 'old boys club' whose prime focus is business. Passenger safety finds a place in their priority purely because there won't be any business otherwise. Boeing have this formidable army of DERs, who can sign an @ss to be 'smell like roses'.

EASA will follow suite because a) They too will have smelly nether regions that they sign as 'smell like lavender' and b) may lack the kaho-na to differ with the mighty FAA. Rest of the 'authorities' like DGCA have no real 'authority' except probably Brazil.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 17:39

CNN

Gebeyehu Fikadu, an eyewitness to Sunday's fatal crash about two-hour drive south of the Ethiopian capital of Addis Ababa, told CNN that the plane was "swerving and dipping" and belching smoke as it came down.

"I was in the mountain nearby when I saw the plane reach the mountain before turning around with a lot of smoke coming from the back and then crashed at this site," said the 25-year-old, who was collecting firewood on the mountain with three other locals when it happened.

"It crashed with a large boom. When it crashed luggage and clothes came burning down.

"Before it crashed the plane was swerving and dipping with a lot of smoke coming from the back and also making a very loud unpleasant sound before hitting the ground."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 17:40

the data recorders were recovered today. in around a week we should know details.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 11 Mar 2019 18:19

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/03/ ... 22387.html
china, indonesia and ethiopia ground max 8 jets. Other countries should also follow suit. MCAS seems to be jugaad of the highest order.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Mar 2019 18:21

cheeen has grounded 87 or 97 of their max airplanes. (whatever number that they have)

Wait and see as to who else follows.

IMHO, this is a prudent and logical step.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 18:36

all american airlines have come out strongly to repose trust in the MAX and will not ground their planes.

media and public pressure and powerful congressmen may tip the balance though...

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 11 Mar 2019 19:50

There is more to it - the MAX has an optional AoA conflict indicator. Most budget airlines don't pay for the option, US based airlines do. I know Southwest has the indicator AND a HUD for the pilot that shows AoA conflicts so overall there is redundancy when the AoA sensor acts up. So there isn't an inherent issue with the MAX, the issue is lack of pilot training and appropriate tools to react to MCAS triggered by a faulty AoA reading.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2019 20:14

These Russian Filmed themselves before they boarded the Ethiopian Airline , You can see the 737 MAX in the background , Rest In Peace Bro

https://lenta.ru/news/2019/03/11/video/

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Mar 2019 20:24

Raveen wrote:There is more to it - the MAX has an optional AoA conflict indicator. Most budget airlines don't pay for the option, US based airlines do. I know Southwest has the indicator AND a HUD for the pilot that shows AoA conflicts so overall there is redundancy when the AoA sensor acts up. So there isn't an inherent issue with the MAX, the issue is lack of pilot training and appropriate tools to react to MCAS triggered by a faulty AoA reading.

These guys have reduced the AOA from a dual sensor to a single sensor, making it a single point of failure item on the Max.

After doing this idiotic thing, and mucking about with the MCAS, they are offering it as an option to fit a sensor conflict device because they have a nonredundant and a very iffy single AOA sensor as standard fit??

Moreover, it is a flight critical sensor and it never should have been taken so lightly in the first place.

BTW, both Boeing and the FAA are very very quiet after the lion air crash, no??

Most budget airlines don't pay for the option

wrong sirji.

Most airlines just did not know about this optional "AoA conflict indicator", as you call it, until after the lion air crash, just as most Max pilots did not know about the MCAS, period.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2019 20:26

Raveen wrote:There is more to it - the MAX has an optional AoA conflict indicator. Most budget airlines don't pay for the option, US based airlines do. I know Southwest has the indicator AND a HUD for the pilot that shows AoA conflicts so overall there is redundancy when the AoA sensor acts up. So there isn't an inherent issue with the MAX, the issue is lack of pilot training and appropriate tools to react to MCAS triggered by a faulty AoA reading.

I read they only activated AOA indicator on large Display Screen after LION AIR crash . While they have the HUD thing for any difference between AOA.

Why that should not come as a standard fitment begs the question because it is concerned with primary safety and not a back up system

Perhaps Boeing did that deliberately to reduce cost of Air Craft to make it attractive to Low cost buyers , Much like they promoted MAX as aircraft that needs to additional training and some things related to MCAS was not mentioned in manual.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2019 20:31

Singha wrote:the data recorders were recovered today. in around a week we should know details.

who does this analysis of FDR Black Box ? Is this FAA who were hand in glove with Boeing to promote their MAX sale and infulenced even EU ?

How is FAA even a Independent much like a honest investigator in this probe ?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Mar 2019 20:32

Singha wrote:from airliners.net.
another small airline cayman air has also grounded its 2 MAXes.
flights have been cancelled in china as necessary if no replacement a/c found.

Current operators in China:
Joy Air- 1
Air China- 15
Fuzhou Airlines- 2
China Southern- 24
China Eastern- 3
Kunming- 2
Hainan Airlines- 11
Shandong Airlines- 7
Shanghai Airlines- 11
Shenzhen Airlines- 5
Xiamen Airlines- 10

That's a total of 91 MAX currently flying in China. Few more are pending delivery over the next few weeks, should be parked at factory now.

apparently, cheen has grounded only their Max 8s and not the other max variants, around 40 or so, give or take.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 21:02

the FDR is sent back to Boeing i think.

the NTSB and not FAA is the one who investigates air crashes and may get involved if GOTUS asks it to.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Mar 2019 21:07

Austin wrote:
Raveen wrote:There is more to it - the MAX has an optional AoA conflict indicator. Most budget airlines don't pay for the option, US based airlines do. I know Southwest has the indicator AND a HUD for the pilot that shows AoA conflicts so overall there is redundancy when the AoA sensor acts up. So there isn't an inherent issue with the MAX, the issue is lack of pilot training and appropriate tools to react to MCAS triggered by a faulty AoA reading.
I read they only activated AOA indicator on large Display Screen after LION AIR crash . While they have the HUD thing for any difference between AOA.

Why that should not come as a standard fitment begs the question because it is concerned with primary safety and not a back up system

Perhaps Boeing did that deliberately to reduce cost of Air Craft to make it attractive to Low cost buyers , Much like they promoted MAX as aircraft that needs to additional training and some things related to MCAS was not mentioned in manual.

this system would cost a negligible amount, given the total cost of the aircraft itself.

also, low cost does not mean that such operators fly a cut price aircraft with only one engine and two wheels less.

MCAS is mentioned in the manuals, but only in the maintenance manuals and not anywhere in the flight manuals.

Sim training is bloody expensive, so that was definitely a big factor.

This explanation by Boeing reeks of arrogance and is insultingly patronizing, especially given the fatal outcomes it has resulted in so far.

Since it operates in situations where the aircraft is under relatively high g load and near stall, a pilot should never see the operation of MCAS. As such, Boeing did not include an MCAS description in its FCOM. The system isn't mentioned in the flight crew operations manual (FCOM) that governs the master description of the aircraft for pilots and is the basis for Southwest's airline documentation and training. (or any airline, for that matter.)

The explainer continues: In this case, MCAS will trim the nose as designed to assist the pilot during recover, likely going unnoticed by the pilot.

There is another explanation, according to a Tuesday report in The Wall Street Journal, One high-ranking Boeing official said the company had decided against disclosing more details to cockpit crews due to concerns about inundating average pilots with too much information and significantly more technical data than they needed or could digest.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2019 22:39

So disclosing about MCAS would load an average pilot with more information they could digest ......what sort of weird suggestion is that .....why have FCOM document at all that too would load the flight crew no ?

These guys are not accepting their fault but doubling down on it with weird argument.

Chetak right on AOA indicator and other things , That is just a fraction of the cost for any airline , it should never have been offered as part of extras but should have been there as standard fitment.

Sim training is expensive plus time consuming too , perhaps the additional type ratings needed for MAX would put many pilot out of roster not acceptable to airlines.

Any idea how did Airbus cope up with NEO when it comes to training etc ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2019 22:54

"Only Pilots With 1,000 Hours": New Rules In India For Boeing 737 Max

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ethiopi ... ome-livetv

vivekmehta · Post by **vivekmehta** » 12 Mar 2019 01:37

Austin wrote:"Only Pilots With 1,000 Hours": New Rules In India For Boeing 737 Max

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ethiopi ... ome-livetv

What will a experience pilot do when system keeps on overriding his inputs...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2019 07:38

how did airbus manage the considerable increment in size from the base mid-80s A320 to todays A321neo which I think is 10 rows longer?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Mar 2019 08:23

Austin wrote:"Only Pilots With 1,000 Hours": New Rules In India For Boeing 737 Max

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ethiopi ... ome-livetv

A pilot with 8000+ hours was at the controls of the ethiopian airlines Max.

these guys need their heads examined.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2019 09:32

chetak wrote:these guys need their heads examined.

True , Babus from DGCA

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Mar 2019 09:34

Austin wrote:
chetak wrote:these guys need their heads examined.
True , Babus from DGCA

Higher than that, saar.

No one wants to piss off DT.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2019 10:22

Singapore Suspends Boeing 737 Max Flights

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... emium-asia

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2019 13:13

Boeing to upgrade 737 Max flight control software

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... re-456540/

Boeing has confirmed that it will deploy a flight control software upgrade for the 737 Max “in the coming weeks”.

In a statement, the manufacturer says it has been developing the software enhancement in the aftermath of the Lion Air flight JT610 crash, but did not link it to the Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max 8 crash on 10 March.

“This includes updates to the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law, pilot displays, operation manuals and crew training. The enhanced flight control law incorporates angle of attack (AOA) inputs, limits stabiliser trim commands in response to an erroneous angle of attack reading, and provides a limit to the stabiliser command in order to retain elevator authority,” it details, adding that the upgrade is designed “to make an already safe aircraft safer”.

Boeing adds it has been working closely with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on the “development, planning and certification” of the software upgrade, which also incorporates feedback from customers. It will deploy the upgrade across the 737 Max fleet in the coming weeks.

The FAA has said that it anticipates mandating the software enhancement through an airworthiness directive no later than April.

“It is important to note that the FAA is not mandating any further action at this time,” adds Boeing.

The FAA said on 11 March that it has not received enough evidence to warrant a grounding of the US fleet of Max aircraft, even as a growing number of aviation regulators around the world ordered a grounding of the type. It disclosed however that it was overseeing Boeing’s changes to the MCAS.

In the Boeing statement, the manufacturer also said that the MCAS was implemented on the Max to improve aircraft handling characteristics and decrease pitch-up tendency at elevated angles of attack, adding that the system does not control the aircraft in normal flight but rather improves its behavior in a non-normal part of the operating envelope.

It reiterated that the Max’s flight operations manual already outlines existing procedures to safely handle a situation where there is erroneous data from an AOA sensor. “The pilot will always be able to override the flight control law using electric trim or manual trim,” it adds.

Flight ET302 crashed six minutes after takeoff from Addis Ababa enroute to Nairobi on 10 March. The airline has revealed that the pilot “mentioned that he had difficulty” and asked to return to the airport shortly after takeoff. This raised concern about similarities to the JT610 crash on 29 October 2018, which occurred shortly after takeoff from Jakarta.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2019 15:45

Singapore and china grounding it forced the issue

More were likely to follow like india japan korea hk

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2019 16:16

I think the MCAS Software update was in the work post Lion Air Crash even Boeing realised the flaw on the MCAS and was working on the fix and Flight Manual etc.

The Ethopian Airline Crash would speed things up.

Will Boeing face any law suite if MCAS flaw were to be the culprit ?

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 12 Mar 2019 16:47

yesterday wion tv was pretty aggresive on this issue. Went as far as recommending calling up the airline before flight to check if its max8 flight or not.
In india, looks like spicejet (13 nos) operates it mainly on international flights.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2019 17:38

a south korean airline and australia have banned the MAX.

ANI
‏
Verified account

@ANI
3h3 hours ago
More
The Associated Press: South Korean airline Eastar Jet to suspend operations of same aircraft involved in Ethiopian Airlines crash.

ANI
‏
Verified account

@ANI
3h3 hours ago
More
AFP news agency: Australia bars all 737 MAX planes from its airspace.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2019 18:06

airliners.net forum

juliuswong wrote:
Number of 737 MAX 8s in Fleet Status Airline
22 Grounded China Southern Airlines
15 Grounded Air China
11 Grounded Hainan Airlines
11 Grounded Shanghai Airlines
10 Grounded Xiamen Airlines
10 Grounded Lion Air
7 Grounded Shandong Airlines
7 Grounded GOL Airlines
6 Grounded Shenzhen Airlines
4 Grounded Ethiopian Airlines
4 Grounded China Eastern Airlines
3 Grounded Lucky Air
2 Grounded Cayman Airways
2 Grounded Fuzhou Airlines
2 Grounded Kunming Airlines
2 Grounded Okay Airways
1 Grounded 9 Air
1 Grounded Garuda Indonesia
1 Grounded Comair
6 Grounded Aeromexico
5 Grounded Aerolineas Argentinas
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
2 Grounded Royal Air Maroc
1 Grounded MIAT Mongolian Airlines
6 Grounded SilkAir
9 Grounded Jet Airways (includes 4 being repossessed by lessors due to non-payment)
34 In use Southwest Airlines
24 In use Air Canada
24 In use American Airlines
18 In use Norwegian Air
15 In use TUI fly
13 In use SpiceJet
13 In use WestJet
11 In use FlyDubai
11 In use Turkish Airlines
7 In use Smartwings
5 In use Oman Air
4 In use Sunwing Airlines
3 In use Air Italy
3 In use Icelandair
2 In use Fiji Airways
2 In use S7 Airlines
1 In use SCAT
5 Unknown LOT
2 Unknown Enter Air
1 Unknown Mauritania Airlines
1 Unknown Corendon Airlines
2 Grounded?/Unknown? Eastar Jet

Close to half of 350 delivered Max are now on ground until the mess is sorted.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Mar 2019 18:56

^^^ A third of the Max's are in China, all grounded. A third of them in North America, all flying.

You can take out the chini market and put that on the A320neo side of the ledger now (unless Trump mandates Cheen buys US planes in the coming trade treaty.)

Anyhoo, I smell a Decade of Dominance coming up for Airbus.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2019 19:51

+UK oman brazil argentina have joined the #meetoo chorus

argentina pilots union put out a letter asking members to refuse to operate it.

NA carriers are still flying...but public are alarmed. congressmen are caught between working for boeing kickbacks or making right noises for their voters - not one word so far from that vocal set who like posturing and moral grandstanding on every issue.

hypocrites to the core. they'd be climbing all over Airbus were it the a320.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 12 Mar 2019 20:15

B0ing has been on big ticket ad campaign for the past few months since lion air crash. Major revenue for big media houses. To keep mouth shut, eyes closed and not poke nose into this nose down affair.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2019 20:17

UK makes the wings of all airbus and ships to toulouse. its a huge highest tech op. they'd like to protect it whatever be brexit.

her majesty's govt has a keen eye on which side bread is buttered. the pakis learnt from best in business these tactical plays.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 12 Mar 2019 20:40

Why the heck haven't we grounded this aircraft? It may end up being safe, but let Boeing prove it before putting more people's lives on the line.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2019 20:47

chola wrote:^^^ A third of the Max's are in China, all grounded. A third of them in North America, all flying.

You can take out the chini market and put that on the A320neo side of the ledger now (unless Trump mandates Cheen buys US planes in the coming trade treaty.)

Anyhoo, I smell a Decade of Dominance coming up for Airbus.

737 fuselage diameter has not changed since the 60 , even without the crash it’s uncomfortable to fly versus Airbus A320

They should have grounded all max after lion air crash knowing the mcas issue till they had enough confidence of fix , making them fly is itself risky

NEO has its share of problem with GTF engine

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 12 Mar 2019 20:49

Austin wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ A third of the Max's are in China, all grounded. A third of them in North America, all flying.

You can take out the chini market and put that on the A320neo side of the ledger now (unless Trump mandates Cheen buys US planes in the coming trade treaty.)

Anyhoo, I smell a Decade of Dominance coming up for Airbus.
737 fuselage diameter has not changed since the 60 , even without the crash it’s uncomfortable to fly versus Airbus A320

They should have grounded all max after lion air crash knowing the mcas issue till they had enough confidence of fix , making them fly is itself risky

NEO has its share of problem with GTF engine

How is it uncomfortable to fly? the seats on the MAX are wider than the Neo which as you pointed out had a LONG list of significant issues prior to this to the point where people on this forum were asking for a grounding

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 12 Mar 2019 20:50

chola wrote:^^^ A third of the Max's are in China, all grounded. A third of them in North America, all flying.

You can take out the chini market and put that on the A320neo side of the ledger now (unless Trump mandates Cheen buys US planes in the coming trade treaty.)

Anyhoo, I smell a Decade of Dominance coming up for Airbus.

No chance - Airbus is still suffering from the A380 mistake and nothing can touch the 777 and 787 at this point
Narrow bodies is anyone's game at this point but I think that too will eventually swing Boeing's way

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 12 Mar 2019 22:18

Atleast Airbus GTF problem were partly remedied by shorter inspection time and stopping long overflights over water. It was in the hands of operator to do something about it. But how to they rectify a piece of code that apparently gets confused between take off nose up and stall nose up.