Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

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Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Austin » 06 Mar 2019 11:42

Last Page of Previous Thread ----> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7098&start=4440

Force Meets Mirage Pilots | Razor’s Edge
For fighter pilots, flying is fun, office is work

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 6th March 2019

Postby Austin » 06 Mar 2019 13:58

SPICE-2000: Know all about the smart bomb Indian Air Force used for Balakot airstrike
https://www.indiatoday.in/fyi/story/spi ... 2019-03-05

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 6th March 2019

Postby Austin » 08 Mar 2019 17:27

Most comprehensive write up by Rohit on Mig-21 in IAF

MiG-21: Over 50 glorious years of service in Indian Air Force
https://www.opindia.com/2019/03/compreh ... air-force/

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Kartik » 13 Mar 2019 03:03

Was this posted earlier?

The plan by HAL is to integrate and test out the SAAW on a Hawk-i upgraded jet, and then move on to integrating more weapons like the HSLD, Litening LDP and LGBs, in addition to ASRAAM would impart a tremendous capability jump for the Hawk. Basically converting the fleet to light bomb trucks, giving the IAF the flexibility to use them to engage ground targets upto 80 kms away. This stand-off engagement capability, coupled with the ASRAAM giving them the ability to self-defend before scooting away, will be useful in the latter part of a war breaking out. Not in the first days of a war, when the IAF hasn't achieved dominance over an area, but maybe towards the latter half, when the resistance that Hawks may meet will be lighter. Of course, they would still need to be escorted by Rafale, Su-30MKI, Tejas Mk1, Mirage-2000 or MiG-29s, but it gives the IAF more platforms to be able to bomb enemy ground targets.

A good article by Shiv Aroor with some good images of SAAW on a Hawk, plus ASRAAM on a Hawk

Image

Image

Image

SAAW soon- HAL's souped up Hawk all set to fire Indian SAAW weapon

In April over the Bay of Bengal, a stubby orange box-shaped weapon will separate from an aircraft flying at 20,000 feet, flip open a pair of angular wings from its sides, and glide over the sea towards a pre-designated spot 80 km away at sea. The weapon, called SAAW — short for Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon — is an in-the-works Indian munition designed to destroy runways at stand-off distances. The aircraft dropping the weapon will be a Hawk-i, on its first ever weapons run. The weapon will be in ‘fire and forget’ mode with inertial guidance.

With over 100 British-origin BAE Systems Hawk Mk.132 jet trainers in service with the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy, the Hawk-i is an internally funded program by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL, which has license built most of the Hawks in Bengaluru) to offer the military an upgrade and weaponisation solution for the Hawk, transforming it from a trainer of budding fighter pilots in peacetime into a jet that can be deployed on certain combat missions during conflict. The program is in the process of weaponising the Hawk-i with bombs, air-to-air missiles and stand-off strike weapons like the DRDO’s SAAW that will be test-fired this summer.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Indranil » 13 Mar 2019 06:00

I can see 4 use cases.

1. One the greatest virtues of the Mig-21 is how quickly it can be scrambled. IIRC, it is about 8 minutes. Nothing else in IAF's inventory comes close: Su-30s take about half an hour. Being a simple aircraft, the Hawk has the potential to do what the Mig-21 can. Armed with A2A missiles, it can get ready and climb quickly to provide cover till the heavy weights arrive.
2. Given its ability to fly slow, it can be used as a good tank buster. Therefore, SANT is a good weapon for it.
3. Again because of its slow flying capability, it should be able drop LGBs and other guided munitions with better accuracy and efficiency in the hilly/mountainous regions along our northern borders.

However, my wet dream is different. It is great that HAL is developing these systems on the Hawk-I. In parallel, I hope it takes up an AJT/LSA project based on an afterburning variant of HTFE-25. (the Honeywell F125-IN can be the backup). These projects can run in parallel. The systems development doesn't have to wait for the platform to arrive. But when it does arrive with a TWR of around 0.7 and a light wing loading of a trainer, it is not a slouch. I think IAF will be much more open to that proposition. Pound for pound, it will be as capable as our current Jaguars.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Mar 2019 07:31

LCA Tejas should be able to do all this.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Indranil » 13 Mar 2019 08:29

Thinking of a plane which costs 2/3rd to acquire and maintain. 1/2 as effective.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby souravB » 13 Mar 2019 09:10

LCA Tejas would be a bad alternative against Hawk/IJT as a CAS kind of platform. Prime reason being it is made for supersonic flight regimes.
SAAW and everything is okay on Hawk, but I would like to see a 30mm gun firing incendiary and sabot rounds. It could be our desi Warthog and invaluable during the initial tank thrust, taking out enemy's tank and tank-hunter helis alike.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Mar 2019 14:31

souravB wrote:LCA Tejas would be a bad alternative against Hawk/IJT as a CAS kind of platform. Prime reason being it is made for supersonic flight regimes.
SAAW and everything is okay on Hawk, but I would like to see a 30mm gun firing incendiary and sabot rounds. It could be our desi Warthog and invaluable during the initial tank thrust, taking out enemy's tank and tank-hunter helis alike.


You are completely mistaken. One of the most effective CAS aircraft in the US inventory, which has been retained for the role is the F-16, another is the F-15. The aircraft frequently lauded by the press, the lay public, even the troops is the A-10. The USAF did all it could to get it out of service, because they realize that in a contested environment, it is nothing but fodder for MANPADS & IADS. The USAF head during ODS remarked that two groups of pilots lobbied him hard for low level attacks, similar to the low level loiter talked about in CAS. After day 1 and seeing all the ammo zip past, they changed their mind pretty quick. Bottomline, due to airframe scarcity, we can talk of escorted Hawks into combat, just like Israelis used A-4s in their conflict, but reality is that a LCA at medium altitude, potting targets with Litening, SAAW, PGM-HSLD, SANT etc will be far far more survivable in an AD rich environment. At lower altitudes, even a single MANPADS can seriously force a mission kill or even take down a loitering aircraft. At medium altitudes, the pilot has much more leeway to detect and escape & in these situations, speed matters, the LCA can zip out of trouble, the Hawk, can't.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Mar 2019 14:37

Indranil wrote:Being a simple aircraft, the Hawk has the potential to do what the Mig-21 can. Armed with A2A missiles, it can get ready and climb quickly to provide cover till the heavy weights arrive..


Vampires over Chamb, I hope we don't have a repeat there.
These Hawks will be sitting fodder for JF-17s and F-16s in the BVR arena and without AI radar, dependent on other sensors from AWACS etc to maneuver and locate targets, they will lack situational awareness.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby JTull » 13 Mar 2019 14:53

I just don't understand the point of this Hawk-i for IAF other than as an export-only option for small airforces.

Where does it fit in current scenario of quick skirmishes followed by propaganda war? Does HAL really believe we're going to be sending these over Pakistan or China when we will have the option to use Rafale, Su-30, M2K, Mig-29, LCA-Tejas, and Jags; all with better ability to attack and defend themselves.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Mar 2019 15:25

The only answer to ground support is lots of cheap smart munitions or bomb trucks like Su-34 which can go down low when the airspace is not contested.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby souravB » 13 Mar 2019 15:43

Karan M wrote:You are completely mistaken. One of the most effective CAS aircraft in the US inventory, which has been retained for the role is the F-16, another is the F-15. The aircraft frequently lauded by the press, the lay public, even the troops is the A-10. The USAF did all it could to get it out of service, because they realize that in a contested environment, it is nothing but fodder for MANPADS & IADS. The USAF head during ODS remarked that two groups of pilots lobbied him hard for low level attacks, similar to the low level loiter talked about in CAS. After day 1 and seeing all the ammo zip past, they changed their mind pretty quick. Bottomline, due to airframe scarcity, we can talk of escorted Hawks into combat, just like Israelis used A-4s in their conflict, but reality is that a LCA at medium altitude, potting targets with Litening, SAAW, PGM-HSLD, SANT etc will be far far more survivable in an AD rich environment. At lower altitudes, even a single MANPADS can seriously force a mission kill or even take down a loitering aircraft. At medium altitudes, the pilot has much more leeway to detect and escape & in these situations, speed matters, the LCA can zip out of trouble, the Hawk, can't.

Sir, this are exactly the reasons USAF gave while it wanted to replace A10 with F35 for CAS roles. Now they are looking for a low flying and cheaper option.
Visual distinction and low flying for a strafing run becomes necessary in a crowded battlefield. Also the speed should be low enough for human eye to make distinction down into the battle field.
MANPADs and ADs are equally or more lethal to helis also. The a/c do not loiter over the battlefield at a low altitude, it only makes a run to clear points where friendlies are choked. It spend fraction(s) of minutes over the actual battlefield at low altitude.
The more survivable a platform is made, cost goes up for not only acquisition but operations too. Hawks would be cheap operationally to account for multiple sorties during CAS and other cheap bombing runs.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Manish_P » 13 Mar 2019 15:51

souravB wrote:Sir, this are exactly the reasons USAF gave while it wanted to replace A10 with F35 for CAS roles. Now they are looking for a low flying and cheaper option.


Isn't that after the door has been kicked in, by the stealthy and the high flyers, and maximum suppression of AD has been done?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Mar 2019 16:12

Yes, perhaps in the Balakot scenario, we have forgotten how masses of accurate Bm/ CM's will be useful, we need to first hit the Runaways, take out key ground radars with BM/CM, and then take out the airbases with a large number of saaw for airfeilds, hit aircraft in thier pens, weapon stores, fuel stores, Pilots quaters etc, we basically need to take PAF out of the fight as quickly as possible to go after Paki missile launchers, similarly Navy shoudl sink the PN as soon as possible, with Pakistan aircraft and nuke nude- the real action can begin.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Mar 2019 16:31

Much has been discussed about IAF strike capability. How is the IN strike capability on MiG-29Ks coming along ? IIRC litening pods have not been integrated, nor any non Russian a2g munitions.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Mar 2019 16:33

souravB wrote:Sir, this are exactly the reasons USAF gave while it wanted to replace A10 with F35 for CAS roles. Now they are looking for a low flying and cheaper option.


Against tier 3 opponents, like the Afghans. Tell me, do you think your low flying and cheaper options will survive Pakistani Anza, Crotale, RBS-70, LY-80? Let alone the plethora of items the PRC fields?

Visual distinction and low flying for a strafing run becomes necessary in a crowded battlefield. Also the speed should be low enough for human eye to make distinction down into the battle field.


All that is fine, we are talking of survivability! How many pilots can the AF field again?
And second, why in Gods name would we want to send our pilots to do strafing runs provided we stock up on enough munitions to prevent these kind of strafing runs from being required? A single pass is somehow manageable - provided advanced AD systems are not in theater, if they are, even that single pass can be grounds for disaster.
Also, you made the point a LCA cannot do a strafing run or is suboptimal as it is a supersonic fighter. Yet, our MiG-21, 23BN, 27ML all did strafing runs in years past. All were fast aircraft, flying supersonic or transonic if need arose.

MANPADs and ADs are equally or more lethal to helis also. The a/c do not loiter over the battlefield at a low altitude, it only makes a run to clear points where friendlies are choked. It spend fraction(s) of minutes over the actual battlefield at low altitude.


I am afraid you are completely mistaken about how helicopters operate in contested zones, provided they have the weaponry and sensor suite to do so - the helicopters attack from a distance, pop up, target, and then disappear. They operate nap of the earth, at altitudes which are very hard for typical SAM systems to engage, and then use that low height to hide in terrain, avoid acquisition & disappear. Even so, they remain vulnerable to MANPADS, hence the focus on long range ATGMs, munitions etc. The "run" to clear points where friendlies are choked etc, happens via the Mi-35/25. They literally operate like fixed wing aircraft & dash through attacks & again, they will try to minimize multiple passes from the same axis. That's grounds for being targeted and shot down.

What you have with a slow, low flying aircraft is literally the worst of both worlds. It cannot fly slow & low enough to hover & take shots from nap of the earth kind of positions. Nor can it fly fast or high enough to avoid complex SAM systems. Nor can it carry sophisticated sensors like radar targeting pods, heavy EW to protect itself.

The more survivable a platform is made, cost goes up for not only acquisition but operations too. Hawks would be cheap operationally to account for multiple sorties during CAS and other cheap bombing runs.


What exactly is a "cheap bombing run"? And how "cheap" will pilots be? How many lives do we have to spare? This is a horrible case of inviting attrition. We have around 800 airframes. Add another 100 odd Hawks. Assume these Hawks need escort. Ok, they are useful with say Su-30s providing top cover & jamming. But what will you do if those Su-30s get bounced & the Hawks get targeted by SAMs?
Here IAF wants even Jaguars to have internal EW, ASRAAM missiles & in Jaguar Max, HAL is adding Astra to their loadout, yet you think that Hawks will be survivable in contested airspace without heavy support..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Mar 2019 16:45

Thakur_B wrote:The only answer to ground support is lots of cheap smart munitions or bomb trucks like Su-34 which can go down low when the airspace is not contested.


Exactly. A single Su-30 with 6 racks of 4x SAAW can field 24 such munitions and with Litening, UAV feeds etc is far more useful (persistence, loiter at height), self escorting than a couple of Hawks. IAF sends in Hawks and they get bounced by low flying F-16s which avoided AWACS coverage by hiding in the terrain, in J&K, what then of Hawks being good for mountain warfare. Just buy more LCAs and give them combination racks & use IFR for persistence.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Manish_P » 13 Mar 2019 16:46

^
+1

And why look at the USAF and their doctrine.. why not look at the IAF, our requirements and our experiences (Kargil?)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Mar 2019 16:49

Aditya_V wrote:Yes, perhaps in the Balakot scenario, we have forgotten how masses of accurate Bm/ CM's will be useful, we need to first hit the Runaways, take out key ground radars with BM/CM, and then take out the airbases with a large number of saaw for airfeilds, hit aircraft in thier pens, weapon stores, fuel stores, Pilots quaters etc, we basically need to take PAF out of the fight as quickly as possible to go after Paki missile launchers, similarly Navy shoudl sink the PN as soon as possible, with Pakistan aircraft and nuke nude- the real action can begin.


+100 Pralay "varsha"

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby souravB » 13 Mar 2019 17:10

Karan M wrote:Against tier 3 opponents, like the Afghans. Tell me, do you think your low flying and cheaper options will survive Pakistani Anza, Crotale, RBS-70, LY-80? Let alone the plethora of items the PRC fields?

All that is fine, we are talking of survivability! How many pilots can the AF field again?
And second, why in Gods name would we want to send our pilots to do strafing runs provided we stock up on enough munitions to prevent these kind of strafing runs from being required? A single pass is somehow manageable - provided advanced AD systems are not in theater, if they are, even that single pass can be grounds for disaster.

I am afraid you are completely mistaken about how helicopters operate in contested zones, provided they have the weaponry and sensor suite to do so - the helicopters attack from a distance, pop up, target, and then disappear. They operate nap of the earth, at altitudes which are very hard for typical SAM systems to engage, and then use that low height to hide in terrain, avoid acquisition & disappear. Even so, they remain vulnerable to MANPADS, hence the focus on long range ATGMs, munitions etc. The "run" to clear points where friendlies are choked etc, happens via the Mi-35/25. They literally operate like fixed wing aircraft & dash through attacks & again, they will try to minimize multiple passes from the same axis. That's grounds for being targeted and shot down.

Threat of MANPADs and VSHORADS will always remain during the entirety of the war. As you explained the heli's SOP, planners will take these threats and prepare the attack plan to maximize survivability.

What exactly is a "cheap bombing run"? And how "cheap" will pilots be? How many lives do we have to spare??

cheaper in opex. Nobody is expecting a Hawk to go up against a F16.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Mar 2019 18:59

souravB wrote:Threat of MANPADs and VSHORADS will always remain during the entirety of the war. As you explained the heli's SOP, planners will take these threats and prepare the attack plan to maximize survivability.


Again, you don't seem to understand the issue at hand at all.

MANPADS and VSHORADs are not the only threats in place. LY-80s are MRSAMs. Many of these will shred any slow, low-flying-medium altitude fighter, which in turn won't have the speed to get away or the performance to attack from medium altitude and won't be carrying dedicated EW aids either. What then?

How are planners supposed to compensate for the limitations of the platform itself?

At best they can fill up a Hawk with PGMs and escort i, but in either case, the LCA is a better bet, having the ability to carry a Litening & possibly field better defensive aids as well, plus an all-weather radar with SAR mapping capability.

Cheaper in opex. Nobody is expecting a Hawk to go up against a F16.


Will your opponent be kind enough to "war" per expectations? Or will your opponent regard your sending (say) unescorted Hawks into theater as an opportunity?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... ter03.html

And if they have to be escorted, what makes them better than LCAs.
Lets be clear here, due to airframe shortage, the IAF may be forced to arm Hawks and use them to supplement core assets. But lets not make a virtue out of necessity.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby souravB » 13 Mar 2019 19:36

Karan M wrote:
Again, you don't seem to understand the issue at hand at all.

MANPADS and VSHORADs are not the only threats in place. LY-80s are MRSAMs. Many of these will shred any slow, low-flying-medium altitude fighter, which in turn won't have the speed to get away or the performance to attack from medium altitude and won't be carrying dedicated EW aids either. What then?

How are planners supposed to compensate for the limitations of the platform itself?

At best they can fill up a Hawk with PGMs and escort i, but in either case, the LCA is a better bet, having the ability to carry a Litening & possibly field better defensive aids as well, plus an all-weather radar with SAR mapping capability.
Will your opponent be kind enough to "war" per expectations? Or will your opponent regard your sending (say) unescorted Hawks into theater as an opportunity?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... ter03.html

And if they have to be escorted, what makes them better than LCAs.
Lets be clear here, due to airframe shortage, the IAF may be forced to arm Hawks and use them to supplement core assets. But lets not make a virtue out of necessity.

Sir, it seems I wasn't clear enough. LOMADS/any MRSAMs shouldn't be the concern of a CAS fighter cz there are high-flyers to neutralize A2AD assets of the enemy.
Also you seem to have answered for me already, these platforms will only supplement core assets like Tejas to focus on point defence and CAP.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Manish_P » 13 Mar 2019 21:29

Sourav Sir, But that's the point. The USAF is (if reports are to be believed) looking for the low cost CAS aircraft AFTER they have locked in and are on target with their F-35 requirement fulfilment.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby brar_w » 13 Mar 2019 21:42

souravB wrote:LCA Tejas would be a bad alternative against Hawk/IJT as a CAS kind of platform. Prime reason being it is made for supersonic flight regimes.
SAAW and everything is okay on Hawk, but I would like to see a 30mm gun firing incendiary and sabot rounds. It could be our desi Warthog and invaluable during the initial tank thrust, taking out enemy's tank and tank-hunter helis alike.


The "Close" in Close Air Support does not mean the aircraft being slow, and close to the troops and using a cannon. The Close illustrates the proximity of the blue forces to the red forces. What advantages does the Hawk have that can convert it into an A-10? Does it have the ability and performance in the low and slow regime to match the A-10? What about the ability to field the large gun, or the survivability against small arms fire that the A-10 has with its Titanium bathtub? Strafing runs with a trainer modified to act as a light strike aircraft does not transform it into an A-10. In all reality, the Hawk attack variant will likely act as a PGM/dumb bomb delivery vehicle much like the other tactical fighter fleet.

souravB wrote:LOMADS/any MRSAMs shouldn't be the concern of a CAS fighter cz there are high-flyers to neutralize A2AD assets of the enemy.


This would be true if you buy into the notion that there will be very distinct and clearly demarcated phases of a protracted combined arms or air battle in which 100% of the enemy's Air Defense capability will be destroyed by those "high flyers" allowing these low cost aircraft to operate in a benign environment. Unfortunately, the enemy usually gets a vote, has capability that can regenerate (spare radars, spare launchers, inventory of missiles) and it deploys various denial tactics (decoys, deception, jamming, using highly mobile and well protected C2 and AD elements) to ensure that the SEAD/DEAD campaign is not easy to execute and is complicated enough that there is some residual capability left to defend even at a severely degraded state.

Manish_P wrote:But that's the point. The USAF is (if reports are to be believed) looking for the low cost CAS aircraft AFTER they have locked in and are on target with their F-35 requirement fulfilment.


The USAF was looking at a low cost CAS platform primarily because of one person (J McCain) who insisted that it do because he was dead focused on the "last war" scenarios of benign air defenses and the ability to freely operate over an air space. Does the IAF expect that type of scenario in any of its possible war scenarios? The reason the USAF still continues to "Look" for a light attack aircraft is because they really don't want one (that is what the world's largest RPA fleet is for) as it makes little sense against an opponent who has the capability to push these resources back by blowing the first few to bits and making sure the they are not deployed in that manner ever again. CAS is a danger close mission not something where the aircraft needs to be close to the troops on the ground. If you want the ability to field a cheap aircraft that can drop weapons suitable for danger close scenarios then the best route is to go unmanned and develop and utilize cheap PGMs with the higher munition inventory cost more than offset by the lack of need to have dedicated piloted aircraft (generally more expensive) and pilots for that need to spend a couple of hundred hours a year maintaining their competencies and skills..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Katare » 13 Mar 2019 22:09

These would not be for attacking enemy at his soil, they won't survive. They might be useful to counter attack enemy land forces on our own land when other aircrafts are not available. They may also be useful for theaters/scenarios like Sri Lanka peace keeping force from late 1980, East Pakistan theater after initial knockout punch, against enemy combat helicopters or as escorts to combat heli fleets.

Still fully agree that procuring them for fighting within our own land or enemy land (in place of proper fighter aircrafts) seems like a stupid decision but it makes a lot of sense, to me, to upgrade all of our existing training fleet (and/or buy all future AJTs) with the combat capability to provide options for IAF to deal with low threat missions where they can't spare high performance expensive platforms. There are stories from 1971/1965 wars where IAF even used transport aircrafts (via back ramp) for bombing missions. It could also be a good option for IA to start it's own fixed wing ground support/training squadrons.

HAL may also be looking at smaller countries that might want to buy an aircraft that acts as both trainer and combat aircraft in limited way.

Nothing earth-e-shester though!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby brar_w » 13 Mar 2019 22:44

Katare wrote:They might be useful to counter attack enemy land forces on our own land when other aircrafts are not available.


So let us imagine a scenario where the enemy has crossed over and is on an offensive. Why do you think it would be dumb enough to not have mobile air defenses and SHORAD capability at its disposal along with those land formations? How will the Hawk be a better, or more optimized strike platform here?

Katare wrote:They may also be useful for theaters/scenarios like Sri Lanka peace keeping force from late 1980, East Pakistan theater after initial knockout punch, against enemy combat helicopters or as escorts to combat heli fleets.


I can see it being useful under those scenarios, but for everything else definitely nothing that adds value (besides numerical strength) when it comes to the qualitative abilities of the rest of the fast jet fleet.

Katare wrote:HAL may also be looking at smaller countries that might want to buy an aircraft that acts as both trainer and combat aircraft in limited way.


There isn't a shortage of small, lightweight attack aircraft though nor is there a lack of competition in the up gunned trainer space so this is likely going to be an uphill climb as far as the export market is concerned.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Kartik » 13 Mar 2019 22:46

Karan M wrote:
Indranil wrote:Being a simple aircraft, the Hawk has the potential to do what the Mig-21 can. Armed with A2A missiles, it can get ready and climb quickly to provide cover till the heavy weights arrive..


Vampires over Chamb, I hope we don't have a repeat there.
These Hawks will be sitting fodder for JF-17s and F-16s in the BVR arena and without AI radar, dependent on other sensors from AWACS etc to maneuver and locate targets, they will lack situational awareness.


Agree with you. Hawks stand no chance of catching up a supersonic intruder. They lack radar, BVRAAMs and would be easy targets for AMRAAM equipped F-16s or even SD-10 equipped JF-17s.

Would be interesting to know if No.45 Squadron sent a detachment of its fighters and pilots to a forward air base to practice ORP and scramble. The mantle of the first responder in case of a scramble alert should fall on Tejas fighters once the Bison fleet begins to retire.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Kartik » 13 Mar 2019 22:49

JTull wrote:I just don't understand the point of this Hawk-i for IAF other than as an export-only option for small airforces.

Where does it fit in current scenario of quick skirmishes followed by propaganda war? Does HAL really believe we're going to be sending these over Pakistan or China when we will have the option to use Rafale, Su-30, M2K, Mig-29, LCA-Tejas, and Jags; all with better ability to attack and defend themselves.


Develop the secondary attack capability as a fall-back option and as a way to bolster bomb carrying jets' numbers. Hence, they're looking to equip them with stand-off bombs and use them only when you have made sure that the target area is sanitized. This is a direct result of the airframe shortage that we're seeing. There is strength in numbers and if planned properly, the PAF can be overwhelmed by having multiple large sized packages approaching the border at different spots.

This is an upgrade option, the IAF doesn't need more new builds.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Katare » 13 Mar 2019 23:12

brar_w wrote:
Katare wrote:They might be useful to counter attack enemy land forces on our own land when other aircrafts are not available.


So let us imagine a scenario where the enemy has crossed over and is on an offensive. Why do you think it would be dumb enough to not have mobile air defenses and SHORAD capability at its disposal along with those land formations? How will the Hawk be a better, or more optimized strike platform here?

So the option is no air support at all or Hawk support, what would you take if you were facing the enemy? There will be counter measures like chaff dispensers to fight against Mobile ADs. The weapons they are talking about (like SAAW) has much longer standoff range than any manpad. Neither does Hawk always need to come down and attack from low levels where it will be an easy pray for the AD forces. The last but not least, how would much slower and low flying attack Helicopters survive these threats?


Katare wrote:They may also be useful for theaters/scenarios like Sri Lanka peace keeping force from late 1980, East Pakistan theater after initial knockout punch, against enemy combat helicopters or as escorts to combat heli fleets.


I can see it being useful under those scenarios, but for everything else definitely nothing that adds value (besides numerical strength) when it comes to the qualitative abilities of the rest of the fast jet fleet.

Agree!

Katare wrote:HAL may also be looking at smaller countries that might want to buy an aircraft that acts as both trainer and combat aircraft in limited way.


There isn't a shortage of small, lightweight attack aircraft though nor is there a lack of competition in the up gunned trainer space so this is likely going to be an uphill climb as far as the export market is concerned.

Nothing wrong in taking an initiative with your own money?


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby manoj_niketa » 14 Mar 2019 00:02

Something very interesting thing i ever heard from Aviator Anil Chopra about 1971 attack on USS Enterprise
https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 3774339072

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Indranil » 14 Mar 2019 01:51

Horses for courses.

Of course, one doesn't send up Hawks to fight fighters with BVR capability. For that kind of a contested airspace, it will be escorted. Strategies of mixed formations have to be evolved. But, we know that if there is a AF which is a master of such strategies, it is the Indian Air Force. At Cope India, the Mig-21s stunned the F-15s by shutting off their radars.

Also, I want to contest this notion of brochure warfare that is often confused with reality. Forget the history of warfare. In the recent skirmish, nearly 2 dozen BVR aircraft went into conflict at the border. Our best vs their best with a directive to engage at will. How many BVR fights happened? How many SAMs were fired?

By the way, I am not speaking of Hawks. I am speaking of a much better aircraft. Dry trust of 27 kN. Wet Thrust of ~45 kN. Empty weight of 4.5 tons. Clean TO weight of ~6.5 tons. This is will be a modern F-5 Tiger class airplane. If you think such a is a pushover in a WVR aerial duel, talk to the people from the TopGun school. One of my friends was a TopGun instructor. His favorite stories are about he soiled many of his students pants flying aggressor on the F-5.

Anyways, A2A is not what I was suggesting this aircraft for. Nobody worth his salt would. The A2A capabilities are only for self protection. By the way, may be people here are worried about sending up modified AJTs/Mig-21 first before the mainline fighters. Yet, that is what will be done in war. That is what is done today with the Mig-21s. Speak to the IAF pilots, which aircraft is scrambled first in their practices, and why? Clearly, it is not because Mig-21 pilots are disposable.

A very large portion of IAF work is mud moving. For those purposes, even an LCA is an overkill and inefficient.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 02:03

That 24 package brawl didnt turn uglier because IAF followed ROEs and didnt salvo MRAAMs in turn or lead with the first strike. It could avoid AMRAAMs because of the speed, EW on the Su30s and their AI radar would have also told them what was going on from a distance. The Hawks will continue to lack all this.

Being in mixed packages still leaves them dependent on their escorts.

Top Gun et al are not fully relevant because the fights are setups, fighting in pre decided locations without LFE type scenarios taking out the aircraft in BVR itself. Once in WVR they will be a handful if and only if opponent gets into a turning fight.

Point is to defend these planes or support them we have to spend a lot of additional money, more than just hanging SAAWS off their wings. SPJs, RWRs, MAWS if possible (they need it), LDP carriage, state of the art HMS plus HOBS missiles, and datalinks if no AI radar.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Karan M » 14 Mar 2019 02:08

Also Cope India in Drive is mentioned incorrectly. The MiG21s definitely used their radars to guide R77 shots from around 20nm. They may have been radio silent till then but did use their radars. Rogoway has misunderstood how the IAF used their MiG21s. They would embed them with the Flogger for integral protection. When the F15s would try to target the MiG27s,they would be bracketed with a swarm of R77s heading their way from the "strikers" while the escorts simultaneously moved in for more R77 shots. It was the Flankers who went radio silent and attacked from the flank with R73Es because they could use their IRST.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Kartik » 14 Mar 2019 02:56

The Hawk isn't very capable in close combat or basic flying maneuvers either. Remember, the Hawk was dropped out of the USAF's T-X competition since the maneuvering requirements were beyond that of the Hawk and the partners knew it wouldn't make the cut.

I am for integrating stand-off weapons and ASRAAM to the Hawk and training crews to use these. But this must be a secondary option, one to be exercised only in limited scenarios where other fighters would be able to pretty much guarantee their safety against enemy fast-jets. If the targets are within 50-60 kms from the border, then they could be targeted while being on our own side of the border, with escorts close by.. then with a 80 km range, the SAAW could be used against enemy installations, airfields, ammo dumps, C3I nodes, infrastructure targets, etc. That is where the Hawk could help in increasing the number of bomb lobbing platforms.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby brar_w » 14 Mar 2019 03:03

Katare wrote:So the option is no air support at all or Hawk support, what would you take if you were facing the enemy? There will be counter measures like chaff dispensers to fight against Mobile ADs. The weapons they are talking about (like SAAW) has much longer standoff range than any manpad. Neither does Hawk always need to come down and attack from low levels where it will be an easy pray for the AD forces. The last but not least, how would much slower and low flying attack Helicopters survive these threats?


Precisely. This isn't the type of CAS mission that was being described earlier. This is just a strike aircraft capable of deploying PGMs and other munitions. This is what I was getting at. If you need a cheap aircraft to deploy bombs then this can be it within the limitations of its range/payload. It would not become something like the A-10 as was being envisioned earlier.


Nothing wrong in taking an initiative with your own money?[/color]


Never said there was anything wrong with HAL deploying its capital towards this project. It is free to do so, but all I was getting at was that it is unlikely to be a success story in the export world because many systems already exist and are on offer that combine light strike and advanced training either on the same platform or on the same variant both with western and non western suppliers and the fact that at this price point and capability you are also competing with both Chinese, US and Russian combat drone exports..

https://defense-update.com/20170618_m346fa.html
http://www.theworldwars.net/weapons/ent ... &m=yak-130
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... li-430985/

Now if HAL could make this thing optionally manned, then that will be very interesting!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby nam » 14 Mar 2019 03:12

The best option for CAS is a unmanned vehicle with ldp and brimstone type of kit.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby brar_w » 14 Mar 2019 03:16

The best option for CAS is actually whatever gets munitions on target in the right quantity and at the right time. It could be a small munition launched from a UAV, a slow and low flying fighter on a strafing run, or it could be a Guided MLRS that comes in zipping from 100 kms out. There is no one perfect "one size fits all" solution. Most importantly, you need weapons that you can clear to launch when blue and red forces are in close proximity (within the risk boundaries you are comfortable with)...how that weapon gets to its target and which platform hosts is going to vary depending upon the situation.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 06 March 2019

Postby Indranil » 14 Mar 2019 04:05

Kartik wrote:The Hawk isn't very capable in close combat or basic flying maneuvers either. Remember, the Hawk was dropped out of the USAF's T-X competition since the maneuvering requirements were beyond that of the Hawk and the partners knew it wouldn't make the cut.

This is what I am saying. The Hawk is not an ideal platform. So develop the systems on this platform. Design the HJT-39 which is of the same weight class as the Hawk, but has 45 kN of power. That's a very different aircraft.

brar_w wrote:Now if HAL could make this thing optionally manned, then that will be very interesting!

I agree that it will be very interesting. But, IMHO it is beyond HAL's capability to develop a fighter class UCAV first up.



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