Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

[Will]

We need huge 10,000T DDGs to patrol and defend our vast ocean lines. Even small countries such as Japan and SoKo have them.

But they are the ONLY ones to have them outside of Khan and Roos! And Roos' are derelicts from the old USSR.

The P-15 and P-15B are the standard size for most of the world's large destroyers and that is around 7K tons.

That said, I would love a few 10K cruisers (like the Ticos) for our CBGs. But I rather have more 7K tonners if forced to choose because of budget. I think cruisers are too extravagant for trade routes patrol. Those are the jobs of smaller blue water vessels including frigates.

The next class of IN destroyers are said to displace 13000 Tons.

[chola]

The next class of IN destroyers are said to displace 13000 Tons.

Yaas, the IN's Next Gen destroyer. But right now it is in the same situation as our CATOBAR. It awaits funding and approval. It is supposed to be the area defense and CnC component of the CBG.

We'll see. I don't see us building concurrent classes of DDGs so we need to finish up and commission the Visakhapatnam and get the other three Visaks in good order. The last two P15Bs have not started yet.

[brar_w]

Ultimately if the IN's carrier ambitions materialize with larger more capable carriers those will need larger escorts if they are going to venture out since, particularly against China, they will need the full spectrum of defensive coverage, from IRBM class missiles right down to UAV swarms etc so one or two large magazine equipped ships would help get them into higher threat environs without the risk significantly increasing.

[Karthik S]

The last two P15Bs have not started yet.

Nah, the 4th destroyer's construction began last July.

http://www.psuconnect.in/news/productio ... -mdl/16430

[Cain Marko]

The next class of IN destroyers are said to displace 13000 Tons.

Yaas, the IN's Next Gen destroyer. But right now it is in the same situation as our CATOBAR. It awaits funding and approval. It is supposed to be the area defense and CnC component of the CBG.

We'll see. I don't see us building concurrent classes of DDGs so we need to finish up and commission the Visakhapatnam and get the other three Visaks in good order. The last two P15Bs have not started yet.

Would love to see them carry a combination of shaurya, brahmos and nirbhay. Also why is there no news on shaurya being deployed esp as desi version of carrier killer?

[JTull]

The next class of IN destroyers are said to displace 13000 Tons.

Do you have any reference for this? Even 15B are only about 7500t.

[MeshaVishwas]

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 310152809/-Ajit Dubey

[chola]

The last two P15Bs have not started yet.

Nah, the 4th destroyer's construction began last July.

http://www.psuconnect.in/news/productio ... -mdl/16430

Thanks! Very good to know. I missed that and in fact, even in very recent articles I recalled only Visakhapatnam and Mormugao mentioned.

The next class of IN destroyers are said to displace 13000 Tons.

Do you have any reference for this? Even 15B are only about 7500t.

Search for India Next Gen destroyer.

http://idrw.org/indias-next-generation- ... ce-report/

It was compared with Zumwalt and Type 055. Still nothing more than IN wish until clearance by MOD so we can't say for certain it will be our next destroyer class.

[JTull]

Apologies for being sceptical, P-18 specs sound a lot like science fiction. In order to follow the last P-15B after 2024, railguns and laser CIWS should have entered testing phase by now.

[brar_w]

Chola, the article is pretty poorly written and has some obvious errors that even a half baked attempt at research would have avoided.

[chola]

Would love to see them carry a combination of shaurya, brahmos and nirbhay. Also why is there no news on shaurya being deployed esp as desi version of carrier killer?

Would love to see a desi universal VLS first of all. But the basic Brahmos might be too large for an UVLS so maybe a reduced size version. Same for Shaurya. Nirbhay is okay. I am going by the top end 7.7M length the Amreekis had set for Mark 41. A combination of missile size and number of cells that is optimal?

[chola]

Apologies for being sceptical, P-18 specs sound a lot like science fiction. In order to follow the last P-15B after 2024, railguns and laser CIWS should have entered testing phase by now.

Yes, I know.

Chola, the article is pretty poorly written and has some obvious errors that even a half baked attempt at research would have avoided.

I know. I don't quote the desi cruiser anywhere else. But since it was brought up, I posted a link showing that it was mentioned somewhere down the line.

[John]

I know. I don't quote the desi cruiser anywhere else. But since it was brought up, I posted a link showing that it was mentioned somewhere down the line.

They are fan fiction this happens all the time, for example before P-15b there was lot of speculation that next set of DDG will be based joint venture with Russia and will be around 10k tons and they turned out to be wrong. IMO after P-15b focus will be on P-17a and we might see more of this class built with AAW emphasis. Perhaps event a extended variant of P-17a design.

[mody]

We can build our own general purpose missile corvettes like the Israeli Sa'ar 6 above. We can replace the 40 cell Tamir VLS with a 16 cell VLS for the naval derivative of QRSAM. Anti-ship missile can be 4 quad packs of Uran mid-ship or 2 quad packs for Brahmos-NG. The heli can be the Naval Dhruv. The main gun can be the OTO mellara 76 m SRGM. We can check whether to add the two AK630 mounts on either side, as the fire control radar for the same would also have to be included.
The basic hull design is ready and most weapons systems except for the Naval QRSAM and Brahmos-NG are available. By the time the ships are built, perhaps both these missiles would be ready as well. The naval Dhruv can carry a dunking sonar and also carry a light weight torpedo.

[MeshaVishwas]

Austin saars 8100T figure is correct.

[sahay]

We can build our own general purpose missile corvettes like the Israeli Sa'ar 6 above.

Indian Navy doesn't see a need for multi-role corvettes. According to the navy, frigates and destroyers are multi-role, while corvettes are single purpose. Multi-role corvettes will lack the endurance to sail along with a CBG, but multi-role frigates and destroyers can. Israel has different needs, with a much smaller area of responsibility. Indian Navy on the other hand, sees its area of responsibility as the entire IOR.

[John]

We can build our own general purpose missile corvettes like the Israeli Sa'ar 6 above. We can replace the 40 cell Tamir VLS with a 16 cell VLS for the naval derivative of QRSAM. Anti-ship missile can be 4 quad packs of Uran mid-ship or 2 quad packs for Brahmos-NG. The heli can be the Naval Dhruv. The main gun can be the OTO mellara 76 m SRGM. We can check whether to add the two AK630 mounts on either side, as the fire control radar for the same would also have to be included.
The basic hull design is ready and most weapons systems except for the Naval QRSAM and Brahmos-NG are available. By the time the ships are built, perhaps both these missiles would be ready as well. The naval Dhruv can carry a dunking sonar and also carry a light weight torpedo.

Problem is that with commitment to locally building of Talwar FFG we now have two 2500-3500 Ton surface combatant designs already (P-28). In all likely hood it would make more sense to build AsuW variant P-28s or Talwar in Goa SY.

[sudeepj]

all the instruments of an alliance are in place , whats the use of advertising it

Nothing is in place kit.

Just because we signed COMCASA and got P-8Is does not make us a member of some Quad.

The Indian Navy knows fully well, that in times of conflict with China, India will be on her own. No one will come to India's aid.

That is some fantasy put forward by the American apologists on BRF and policy influencers at institutions like the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace to peddle American wares. You remember the Single Engine Fighter episode on BRF? The yarns we were being spoon fed. My, oh my!

The main speaker - as per his own admission - visits BRF very rarely now. But he may be lurking silently though

My understanding is that Indian policy is influenced by the English legacy. And the English never entered any formal alliances either, (until getting into an alliance gets them overwhelming benefits). Indian babus see India as a swing state and will lean this way or the other, but will not enter an alliance because in their view, it makes war more likely by making threats explicit. We will use euphemisms, we will use our own custom agreements, but will not enter an international agreement that requires us to enter a war because, say, hot headed American and Chinese captains decided to do something rash.

My own view is, India needs to get rid of the garbage borders British shat out after WW II in the Indian subcontinent. Redrawing major borders needs support from most major powers. India isnt yet a major power herself yet. It will take at least 10-15 years more, with some capability shown that we will be able to escape the middle income trap.

Either align now, and do what needs to be done, or wait for much longer, perhaps a really really long time.

[Rakesh]

Actually the way I see it is nothing really has changed from our non-alignment policy. We are working towards self reliance in a number of areas, while at the same time partnering with many nations, including the United States. In the past decade itself, we have received the following platforms (not an exhaustive list by any stretch);

France
Rafale
Scorpene, etc, etc, etc

Russia
S-400
Frigates, Akula
Infantry Weapons, etc, etc, etc

United States
C-130 transport
C-17 strategic airlift
M777 howitzer, etc, etc, etc

I believe India's policy makers have realized that while partnerships are a very good thing for India, alliances are best left out of the picture. India has to chart her own path and not follow or mimic what other nations do. So buy what we need to develop our capability, but that should not translate into joining into any alliance (Quad) or agreement (the vanilla CISMOA). Our foreign policy must remain independent, regardless of whatever partnerships we have entered into. Our military capability must remain free from the threat of sanctions.

Why redraw borders, when you can break the country up into smaller chunks? We did that in 1971 and I am sure we can do that again. NSA Doval alluded to that fact not too long ago. Redrawing borders also brings up the issue of what exactly are we planning to do with all those people in the redrawn border? Back in 71, Nixon threw a huff and a puff, but nothing really came out of it. We do not need to follow the accepted definition of what constitutes a major power. Take a look at China. That nation is a major power - without the assistance of America - and is causing lot of takleef for the United States. Isn't that why the Quad was envisaged in the first place? To keep the dragon in check?

I find it odd that the US Govt - led by a President who vehemently believes that there was NO collusion - is out sanctioning nations (under the guise of CAATSA) that purchase arms from Russia. And CAATSA is designed to punish Russia for its interference in the 2016 US Presidential Elections. So the sole superpower on planet earth is incapable of managing a Presidential election and the American President believes that law is inherently flawed! Many of us are waiting, with bated breath, for the CAATSA waiver for India. I wonder what is taking so long. Alignment can wait. America needs to decide what it really wants out of a relationship with India and convey that to us. At the least, that is what I expect America - who granted Major Defence Partner status to India - to do.

[MeshaVishwas]

[Singha]

by first sea lord on twitter:

A key component of the relationship between the Indian Navy and @RoyalNavy is our carrier capability partnership. Today it was a pleasure to host Adm Lanba on board @HMSQNLZ as we discussed areas of mutual interest in the development of our carrier strike capabilities.

[MeshaVishwas]

Just another "troop transporter" ferrying the CDS, Admiral Lanba
Image Courtesy: The Indian Navy

[gpurewal]

Just another "troop transporter" ferrying the CDS, Admiral Lanba
Image Courtesy: The Indian Navy

Nitpicking here, but wouldn't it be cheaper for the Navy (and other arms for all that matters) to charter a flight from one of the airlines, instead of using an asset like the Hercules? Unnecessary flight hours put wear and tear on the machine, let alone having to schedule one with the IAF and such. I would think that ringing up the business support line at AI, Spicejet, Indigo, etc would allow for a more cost effective, and efficient service than having the Hercules fly from Arjan Singh AB to the place of embarkation of the Naval Staff and then fly them to where they need to be?

[MeshaVishwas]

Just another "troop transporter" ferrying the CDS, Admiral Lanba
Image Courtesy: The Indian Navy

Nitpicking here, but wouldn't it be cheaper for the Navy (and other arms for all that matters) to charter a flight from one of the airlines, instead of using an asset like the Hercules? Unnecessary flight hours put wear and tear on the machine.

I guess that you are unaware of TROPEX2019.

[Rakesh]

Just another "troop transporter" ferrying the CDS, Admiral Lanba
Image Courtesy: The Indian Navy

Nitpicking here, but wouldn't it be cheaper for the Navy (and other arms for all that matters) to charter a flight from one of the airlines, instead of using an asset like the Hercules? Unnecessary flight hours put wear and tear on the machine.

Depends on what is available at that moment in time. Please also consider the possibility that the C-130 was ferrying other equipment or supplies to the same location that the Admiral was visiting. There could be any number of reasons why a particular aircraft was chosen for the flight.

[JTull]

This kind of reporting without any context aims to extract operational details by sensationalising a non-matter. BRF would do well to nip such posts in the bud.

[gpurewal]

This kind of reporting without any context aims to extract operational details by sensationalising a non-matter. BRF would do well to nip such posts in the bud.

Calm yourself, it's only a question regarding the use of a strategic resource for Spec Ops being used to ferry staff. MeshaVishwas clarified that it was being used for TROPEX2019.

[Indranil]

I have had this question for years. Why aren't the Avros used more. Their weight seem to rest more on their wheels rather than their wings.

[JTull]

This kind of reporting without any context aims to extract operational details by sensationalising a non-matter. BRF would do well to nip such posts in the bud.

Calm yourself, it's only a question regarding the use of a strategic resource for Spec Ops being used to ferry staff. MeshaVishwas clarified that it was being used for TROPEX2019.

I'm always calm. Newbies on BRF actively speculating on the usage of various assets and claiming "wouldn't it be cheaper for the Navy (and other arms for all that matters) to charter a flight from one of the airlines, instead of using an asset like the Hercules?" require monitoring. What you want to know is alternative operational uses of Hercules (such as command posts) or relation between services and private operators.

I stand by my comment.

[MeshaVishwas]

I have had this question for years. Why aren't the Avros used more. Their weight seem to rest more on their wheels rather than their wings.

I will second the impressive question.We should be using the Parashurama as he has "The Axe Effect".
-Image Courtesy Rajeev Chandrashekhar

[gpurewal]

Calm yourself, it's only a question regarding the use of a strategic resource for Spec Ops being used to ferry staff. MeshaVishwas clarified that it was being used for TROPEX2019.

What you want to know is alternative operational uses of Hercules (such as command posts) or relation between services and private operators.

I stand by my comment.

Who's speculating now? I don't care about relations between services and private operators or how the IAF uses their assets for their own needs. You made an assumption out of a question regarding a IAF plane being used to ferry staff members. The mistake on my end was not phrasing the question better so that people wouldn't make a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Rakesh]

Okay, can both of you stop now? Everything has been cleared. Let us move on.

[gpurewal]

will do.

[kit]

Actually the way I see it is nothing really has changed from our non-alignment policy. We are working towards self reliance in a number of areas, while at the same time partnering with many nations, including the United States. In the past decade itself, we have received the following platforms (not an exhaustive list by any stretch);

I find it odd that the US Govt - led by a President who vehemently believes that there was NO collusion - is out sanctioning nations (under the guise of CAATSA) that purchase arms from Russia. And CAATSA is designed to punish Russia for its interference in the 2016 US Presidential Elections. So the sole superpower on planet earth is incapable of managing a Presidential election and the American President believes that law is inherently flawed! Many of us are waiting, with bated breath, for the CAATSA waiver for India. I wonder what is taking so long. Alignment can wait. America needs to decide what it really wants out of a relationship with India and convey that to us. At the least, that is what I expect America - who granted Major Defence Partner status to India - to do.

it's not exactly how it sounds nor as simple. America's right and left arms ( read state and military; and sometimes the inner state ) are not always in sync with its professed goals. Besides its good statecraft to hedge one's bets esp against a likely peer. America will continue to cheer and at the same time work against in the background. unless a strong president or secretary pushes them to one goal.Achievable? yes.Likely? NO

[Vips]

1971 war hero who helped set up Bangladesh Navy, passes away.

The 1971 India-Pakistan war hero, Captain M N Samant Captain M N Samant of the Indian Navy, who helped set up the foundation of the Bangladesh Navy, passed away here on Wednesday following Cardiac arrest, an official said.

Captain Samant, 89, breathed his last at the Bharatiya Arogya Nidhi Hospital in Juhu. He is survived by his wife Nirmala and daughters Ujjwala, Natasha and Meghana.

After the 1971 war, which saw the birth of Bangladesh, Samant helped the fledgling Bangladesh Navy to expand.

Decorated with Mahavir Chakra for his role in the 1971 war, Samant was the senior officer of a force comprising vessels which carried out daring and highly successful attacks on the enemy in Mongla and Khulna ports in the erstwhile East Pakistan.

Manoeuvring his brave men in the squadron through an extremely hazardous territory and unfamiliar route, Samant caught the enemy by total surprise in Mongla port and inflicted heavy losses on their forces.

He then attacked the enemy forces strongly entrenched on Khulna Port. In the bitter battle that followed, Samant's forces were subjected to incessant air attacks. Two boats belonging to the Mukti Bahini of Bangladesh, which were operating with the Indian forces, were sunk.

But disregarding his personal safety, Samant managed to rescue a large number of survivors while simultaneously continuing the attack on the enemy

[Mollick.R]

Tata Power SED bags Rs 1,200 cr contract from defense ministry
By PTI | Mar 22, 2019, 02.35 PM IST

NEW DELHI: Tata Power Strategic Engineering Division (SED) has bagged a Rs 1,200 crore contract from the defence ministry for supply of ship-borne 3D Air Surveillance Radars.

Tata Power SED has signed a deal with the Ministry of Defence to supply 23 ship-borne 3D Air Surveillance Radars to the Indian Navy over the next 10 years, a Tata Power statement said Friday. The contract was signed under the Buy & Make (India) category of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2013 that will be offering the Indian Navy a proven solution, with a production arrangement in India under Transfer of Technology (ToT). The contract will be executed by Tata Power SED as the prime contractor with foreign OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) partner Indra Sistemas, Spain.

Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL) has entered into a share purchase agreement with Tata Power to buy Tata Power SED, subject to regulatory and other approvals. In November 2017, Tata Power SED had signed a contract with the defence ministry for supply of Portable Diver Detection Sonar (PDDS) for Indian Naval applications.


Tata Power is an integrated power company and together with its subsidiaries and jointly controlled entities, has an installed capacity of 10757 MW

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 521044.cms

[Snehashis]

ANI - Government appoints Vice Admiral Karanbir Singh as the next Chief of Naval Staff. Chief of Naval Staff Vice Admiral Sunil Lanba will vacate the office on 31 May 2019. - https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1109371851044728832

[chola]

With the Tejas stealing the show at LIMA, let's not forget the IN is there too. What beautiful ships the Kamorta Class are.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PIB_India/st ... 1507149824 ---> Indian Navy’s frontline ASW corvette, INS Kadmatt arrived at Langkawi, Malaysia on a seven days official visit on Monday 25 Mar 19; ship is scheduled to participate in 15th edition of Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition.

[Austin]

Admiral Arun Prakash on Navy Day 2018

[Singha]

india and australia to hold large scale ASW exercise in bay of bengal next month

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... arebuttons

even armed hawks are planned to participate...