Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Mar 2019 22:45

Regarding Paki M109 many of them had been used and given to Pakis at nearly free of cost to Pakis. From barrel to engine no part is manufactured in Pakistan. I bet many need to be cannibalised for parts and out 600 hardly 200 would be operational

nam · Post by **nam** » 13 Mar 2019 23:33

Katare wrote: I doubt that, wouldn't 72 rockets each with 100Kg of TNT (7.2 Tons total) would be much better saturation coverage over a large area than 10 Prithvi ballistic missile of 1 ton payload each (70% explosives fraction)? That many large BM use would also be a hugely escalatory and expensive step than firing a battery of MLRS.

Anyhow I think neither the MLRS nor the BMs would be very effective against a mountain top. Best way is to do what India finally figured out and did during Kargil war - PGM attack for pin point accuracy and saturation attack from multiple sides using scores of howitzers for hours at a time.

Different context. Rockets are not suited for mountains. MBRL cannot flatten mountains areas.

However in a open flat area, yes MBRL can cause more damage against individual BM. Also the fact 10 MBRL with 100KG each will be more expensive than 1 tonne BM.

Tactical BM are not escalatory. Not different from dropping 2000lb from a jet. I don't know why this perception about a fatter rocket being No-No, while a thinner one is okay.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 14 Mar 2019 01:49

Yeah, it shouldn’t be but unfortunately it is, partly because of BM’s stronger connection with the strategic delivery role worldwide.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 14 Mar 2019 11:03

Just a pooch cant the Prithvi be fired in an inclined mode...make it an MRBL so no danger of strategic delivery role.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Mar 2019 12:42

ashthor wrote:Just a pooch cant the Prithvi be fired in an inclined mode...make it an MRBL so no danger of strategic delivery role.

Doubt pakis have an ABM radar, they will know about nukes once hit. But using them pre emptively has been a no no for us.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 14 Mar 2019 14:35

Aditya_V wrote:Regarding Paki M109 many of them had been used and given to Pakis at nearly free of cost to Pakis. From barrel to engine no part is manufactured in Pakistan. I bet many need to be cannibalised for parts and out 600 hardly 200 would be operational

Wiki chacha says it might be just 120.
Funny Pak Artillery folks don't seem to make a big news of these .... it should be their F-16s no.
Imported Amreeki maal.

Must be suffering serviceability issues as you suggest.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 16 Mar 2019 06:32

The Pinaka system: A formidable addition to India’s weapon systems.

The Pinaka is a complete system, with a single Pinaka battery comprising six launcher vehicles, each with 12 rockets; six loader-replenishment vehicles; three replenishment vehicles; two Command Post vehicles with a fire control computer and a DIGICORA radar. Each Pinaka regiment, in turn, comprises three batteries plus reserves and the first regiment was raised in February 2000.

In an important boost to the private sector production of defence equipment on the 29 March 2006, the Indian Army awarded Tata Power SED and Larsen & Toubro’s Heavy Engineering Division, to 40 Pinaka MBRLs each – thus equipping two regiments with Pinaka systems.

These were followed by additional orders for four more regiments in two batches. On 29 October 2015, the Defence Acquisition Council chaired by the Defence Minister of India, cleared the purchase of two more Pinaka regiments and in 2016 the Cabinet Committee on Security(CCS) confirmed this purchase of two additional Pinaka regiments. In addition to these orders, and to supplement the earlier 4 regiments, an order for additional six regiments was cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council on 7 November 2016, thus making for an eventual total of ten regiments to be in Indian army service by 2022, with possibly a dozen more regiments to follow.

The Pinaka Rocket

Each Pinaka Mk.1 rocket is capable of carrying a 100kg payload to a range of 40km. Equipped with six, twelve rocket launchers, a single Pinaka battery can neutralise a surface area of 700m x 500m. In its basic form, the system has a circular error probability (CEP) of one to two per cent of range.

Besides a monolithic HE warhead, the rockets can be fitted with a variety of warheads including pre-fragmented high explosive, anti-tank bomblet, anti-tank minelet warhead, anti-personnel mines plus incendiary practice and pilot shot. These dramatically enhance the rocket’s lethality with the pre-fragmented warhead delivering 25% to 30% more destructive power than the basic HE warhead. Using an HMX-based composition, then anti-tank bomblets / minelets are able to achieve 150mm armour penetration, making the Pinaka quite useful against armour.

The Pinaka is combined with the Sagem 30 artillery pointing navigation system to improve its efficacy.

The Pinaka Mk.2

Work on an extended range Pinaka, fitted with a guidance system in 2013. This uses a new guided rocket with an Israeli designed Trajectory Control System (TCS) to improve its accuracy. These rockets were tested to a range of 65km in 2013 and have now evolved into a 90km range system. It is believed that a 120km range rocket is being contemplated.

The Significance of the Pinaka

While the Pinaka is a formidable weapon system in itself, the real significance lies in the fact that its new incarnation represents one of the few examples of an evolutionary process being followed with an indigenous Indian weapon system.

For far too often, Indian systems have been neglected or not further developed in favour of an imported system of apparently better performance.With the Pinaka, India seems to have broken with this pattern and has moved towards an evolutionary path in weapons development. This, if used on all indigenously developed systems, augurs well for the future as it enables a combination of technological improvements and user feedback to be incorporated periodically.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2019 07:37

Once Guided Pinaka is fielded with 25 m accuracy, the doctrine has to change. A 100kg warhead at 25m would be devastating assuming 50 percent loading.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2019 10:32

^ they mentioned 2m accuracy @ 70km not 25m. this for TCS guided round.

so its as accurate as a manually laser guided PGM or JDAM with access to nato military signal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2019 10:37

good point about pak M109. but i do think us army (1000 units) and several khan certified armies (israel,soko) may still be using it all over and there may be a parts chain if people are willing to pay the OEM.

in iraqi mosul firebase ops i think they just use MLRS and M777 from a base 20km south iirc.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Mar 2019 04:01

https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/1 ... 40865?s=19

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Mar 2019 04:02

Excellent work by IA, DRDO to develop guided Pinaka. https://t.co/nrXfkI9R0x

Left unsaid is the CEP of 5m with 100kg warhead will change battle tactics.
For ref 155mm shell weighs 45 kg and CEP is ~150m. With guided fuze would be 10m.
Kudos For the team.
@palepurshankar

disha · Post by **disha** » 20 Mar 2019 04:24

I came to post the above! Just got beaten to it

PINAKA – AN ANALYSIS OF SUCCESS
https://palepurshankar.blogspot.com/201 ... ref=tw&m=1

BY LT GEN P R SHANKAR (R)

What caught my attention is this:

Operationally, India has a deadly guided rocket with a range in excess of 75 km(now) which will get extended to 100 km in a little while. Not a case of ‘If’ but ‘When’. It is mounted on a light and highly mobile platform. The Guided Pinaka ushers in multiple target capability. Theoretically, a salvo from a battery of six launchers can target 72 different targets with pin point precision. Huge conventional deterrent value. A lot of operational gaps will be filled on the China border. Against Pakistan? Tremendous implications. It can carry out non-contact surgical strikes a la Balakot with same effect but at lesser thresholds than a fighter aircraft. The deterrence value on terrorist camps at these distances will be huge. With a 210 mm caliber, India is a screw away from tipping Pinaka with a TNW. Pinaka outranges and out shoots NASR by a mile. Pakistan better rethink. Nuclear blackmail cuts both ways henceforth.

In effect, the minimum standoff Bakistan to ensure that its missile corps survives is 100 Km. That is anything <100 Km falls under Pinaka umbrella and a tremendous firepower is brought in few minutes. Everything east of Chenab is toast. Isloo is toast.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Mar 2019 08:37

Disha, this is exactly what we need. Every now and then, launch Pinaka rockets into terrorist camps across the border. Let them know we are watching. Send them to meet their 72! Sanitize 100 km inwards into Pakistan, from the International Border.

srin · Post by **srin** » 20 Mar 2019 09:52

Rakesh wrote:Disha, this is exactly what we need. Every now and then, launch Pinaka rockets into terrorist camps across the border. Let them know we are watching. Send them to meet their 72! Sanitize 100 km inwards into Pakistan, from the International Border.

What a coincidence that a Pinaka battery has exactly 72 rockets

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 20 Mar 2019 17:43

disha wrote: In effect, the minimum standoff Bakistan to ensure that its missile corps survives is 100 Km. That is anything <100 Km falls under Pinaka umbrella and a tremendous firepower is brought in few minutes. Everything east of Chenab is toast. Isloo is toast.

Wouldnt this just make the pakis bring in the longer range Smerch clone from China to in turn target the Pinaka's and maintain status quo?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Mar 2019 18:42

But not sure the PHL 03 warhead is guided, plus in Kashmir and POK compared to PHL03 and Smerch, the Pinaka can easily negotiate those roads. Bringing the PHL 03 also carries the risk of losing them to guided Indian munitions

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Mar 2019 18:55

Rahul Singh‏
Verified account
@rahulsinghx
1h1 hour ago
More
Indian Army to begin induction of the locally-made 155mm 45-calibre Dhanush towed artillery guns at Jabalpur on March 26.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 22 Mar 2019 22:18

Rahul bedi mentioned in janes
"Manufacturing of the first 36 units is expected to be completed by December, while another 48 guns are set to be delivered in 2020"
https://www.janes.com/article/86615/ind ... -howitzers

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Mar 2019 22:47

Some of the prototype must have moved to LC

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Mar 2019 22:52

Rajat Pandit, DDM, infuses the name of the gun in the headline - Desi Bofors
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 526961.cms

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Mar 2019 23:42

Another idiot. It's not desi Bofors.
Its much better accuracy and 10km longer range,

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 22 Mar 2019 23:50

^^dont know what's the reason but some of these guys are so bent upon proving that poor indians can't do anything on their own. Some are almost implying that we recvd 12K pages of documentation in the first batch and this is just a minor improvement over it. These folks probably dont even understand what it means to design and develop things. Forget about doing anything hands on. They are reverse paki, pakis claim even painted plane/missile theirs, Long March shared free rides as their own

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Mar 2019 00:05

A list of enhancements made for the Dhanush aide from the new 45 cal barrel. It is a huge improvement over the old FH-77.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 23 Mar 2019 00:16

to a layman, this looks like an entirely new gun. Of course I am biased towards desi maal, but apart from basic metallurgy everything would have been changed

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 23 Mar 2019 00:36

Doesnt this mean that a single gun regiment can be dispersed widely, while still carrying out the required fire support mission? I bet it will complicate the hell out of any counter battery fire mission. Even the original bofors is an extremely competent gun even today, and this upgrade takes it to the next level.

gpurewal · Post by **gpurewal** » 23 Mar 2019 01:09

I'm just so goddamn happy that new artillery is being inducted finally, even if some journalists are calling them "Desi Bofors". I just can't wait to see the ATAGS come into play as well. Does anybody know what names are being considered for the ATAGS? I wonder if a Sanskrit translation for "Spank a Pak" would be befitting?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 23 Mar 2019 01:16

ArjunPandit wrote:Rahul bedi mentioned in janes
"Manufacturing of the first 36 units is expected to be completed by December, while another 48 guns are set to be delivered in 2020"
https://www.janes.com/article/86615/ind ... -howitzers

I hope the producton figures mentioned are true. The news report here mentions just 12 guns to be manufactured in the next 12 months.Beyond Pathetic if that is indeed the case.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2019 03:20

Vips Same date yet different data.
Rahul Bedi says 36 by December and Rajat Pandit says 18 by March 2020.
Would look like different sources.

The old thread had GCF production tranches.
First year was 18, 36, 36, balance of 114.
Army was to approve the following order ~400 guns.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 23 Mar 2019 06:04

sudeepj wrote:Doesnt this mean that a single gun regiment can be dispersed widely, while still carrying out the required fire support mission? I bet it will complicate the hell out of any counter battery fire mission. Even the original bofors is an extremely competent gun even today, and this upgrade takes it to the next level.

You disperse party guns you loose effectiveness.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2019 09:43

sudeepj wrote:Doesnt this mean that a single gun regiment can be dispersed widely, while still carrying out the required fire support mission? I bet it will complicate the hell out of any counter battery fire mission. Even the original bofors is an extremely competent gun even today, and this upgrade takes it to the next level.

With radio and digital iaccs this is the norm

Infact american artillery developed the coordination mechanisms in ww2 to target anything with upto 48 guns in multiple regiments and in mrsi mode to shatter panzer attacks

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Mar 2019 10:00

Sirs are there any plans to upgrade the original FH-77B guns to Dhanush standard ?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Mar 2019 11:30

suryag wrote:Sirs are there any plans to upgrade the original FH-77B guns to Dhanush standard ?

Would be easier to replace them with new built Dhanush, which is what the IA is planning I think. There are just too many changes. The total order including the initial 114 was supposed to be 414 which tallies with the ~400 FH-77B that were originally bought. Some must have been cannibalized for spares or otherwise taken out of service so the actual number operational will be lower.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 23 Mar 2019 12:10

Vips wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Rahul bedi mentioned in janes
"Manufacturing of the first 36 units is expected to be completed by December, while another 48 guns are set to be delivered in 2020"
https://www.janes.com/article/86615/ind ... -howitzers
I hope the producton figures mentioned are true. The news report here mentions just 12 guns to be manufactured in the next 12 months.Beyond Pathetic if that is indeed the case.

Yep, we need to get out of this glacial pace. It’s not like we don’t have three lost decades to make up for.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 23 Mar 2019 15:07

suryag wrote:Sirs are there any plans to upgrade the original FH-77B guns to Dhanush standard ?

I've never understood this upgrade of guns. When you've a new barrel, new laying mechanism, new APU, new sight, what's left of the old one?

Perhaps someone can show with pictures.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Mar 2019 16:14

You are right sir, doesn’t make much sense given barrels would have worn out, btw, looking at the upgrades it is actually a new design gun inspired by FH-77B and whoever calls it desi bofors should get their heads checked by a doctor

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 26 Mar 2019 15:41

Army to induct 1st batch of Dhanush today

Jabalpur: India’s first indigenous, long-range artillery gun Dhanush, also refered to as the ‘Desi Bofors’, will be inducted by Army at a ceremony to be held at the Gun Carriage Factory in Jabalpur on Tuesday.

On February 18, OFB had received the bulk production clearance for manufacturing of 114 Guns. Now, GCF is ready with 6 Dhanush guns for issuance to the Army.

Saurabh Kumar, IOFS, DGOF & Chairman OFB, will be flagging of issuance of first Batch from GCF Jabalpur. Senior officials like ADG Artillery, Controller CQA(W), Commandant JOD, WDET program coordinator and his team will be present on the occasion. Hari Mohan, IOFS Member OFB and Alok Prasad, IOFS, DDG OFB will be represent OFB. GMs of sister OFs will also garce the occasion. The 155mm x 45 Cal FH Gun ‘Dhanush’ is a new generation towed Artillery gun with major upgraded features over the existing 155/39 cal. FH 77 B02 Gun. Indigenization to the extent of approximate 81% has already been achieved. By end of this year, the indigenisation level is expected to go up to 91%.

The Dhanush gun has undoubtedly emerged as a reliable and robust gun system at par with the latest in the world.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Mar 2019 15:52

Its effectiveness should be tested on Pakistan Artillery, Armour and Ammo Dumps near the IB and LOC also.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 26 Mar 2019 18:06

With Dhanush howitzer, Artillery Corps lends a major combat arm to Indian Army at LoC - SAURAV JHA

vnms · Post by **vnms** » 26 Mar 2019 19:44

Any idea if we are procuring or planning to procure guns from Bharat Forge?