MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

nam · Post by **nam** » 15 Mar 2019 18:10

We need to double down on stealth and SFDR. Next round should be larger grinding down of PAF.

Need to stop summer, winter , spring,night,day, evening trial cycle and get them on board quickly. Need to reduce the timelines.

nam · Post by **nam** » 15 Mar 2019 18:12

Vips wrote:Turkey or any other country cannot transfer the old F16's to pakistan unless approved by USA.That is not going to happen so easily.

It will happen very easily. The only stumbling block was & is, Pak is not ready to pay from it's pocket. If it is cheap enough, like 2nd hand, it will get them.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 15 Mar 2019 19:52

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/cove ... 2019-03-15

This article says
1.Pakistan, on its part, exhibited the wreckage that it claimed was a MiG 21 engine. However, after a close analysis of the photograph and by stripping down old MiG engines in the Pathankot base, the article says IAF submitted evidence to the government that the wreckage was not that of a MiG-21 but more likely of an F-16

2. The IAF remains confident that WC Abhinandan brought down an F-16 before he ejected because the radar monitoring its signature clearly showed it going down.
My comment : The IAF knows likely the exact spot where it went down

3. Regarding the specific part of engine cover, The article says IAF says the MiG-21 does not have smooth sections like the one pictured here. It uses riveted sections.

So apart from the drop tank this part is also suspect

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Mar 2019 21:05

And this part along with drop tank were loaded on to the Pakistani Army truck unlike the Mig 21 Bison fuselage which was kept for days for media

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Mar 2019 21:15

aditya_v.. good point. I felt the same...about Mig fuselage ..kept for public display. What would be the approx dimensions of the piece in the pic??

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Mar 2019 21:33

also the surrounding vegetation is different

Sathish_A · Post by **Sathish_A** » 15 Mar 2019 21:57

Pictures of A$$ whopped Paki F16 pilot....its trickling out.....

https://ibb.co/RTP8t5Y

https://ibb.co/yWJ70nw

samsher · Post by **samsher** » 15 Mar 2019 22:01

Sathish_A wrote:Pictures of A$$ whopped Paki F16 pilot....its trickling out.....

https://ibb.co/RTP8t5Y

https://ibb.co/yWJ70nw

Can anyone translate the Urdu?

Rohit_K · Post by **Rohit_K** » 15 Mar 2019 22:05

Those images are from a F-7 crash near Mianwali in 2017

https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pakista ... -mianwali/

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 15 Mar 2019 22:39

samir (seems from other side of border) came up with this geo location of the drop tank

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D00WzQ8WsAEM_Bk.jpg

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 16 Mar 2019 00:49

samsher wrote: Can anyone translate the Urdu?

Original text :

سعد تیری جرات کو سلام

آبادی کو بچانے والا پاکستان ائیر فورس کا بہادر پائلٹ اسکورڈن لیڈر سعد آگ لگ جانے والے طیارے کو دس منٹ تک اڑاتا ہوا 6 گاؤں کو بچا کر ایک گھر کے عین اوپر آچکا تھا۔ اب اسے دو باتوں میں سے ایک کو چننا تھا یا اس گھر کی تباہی یا پھر اپنی شہادت، بالآخر اس گھر کے پاس آ کر اس نے اپنے طیارے کا رخ تبدیل کیا اور زمین سے ٹکرانے سے صرف 7 سیکنڈ قبل جہاز سے ایگزٹ کر گیا.
جب اس نے ایگزٹ کیا تو اسوقت تکنیکی طور پر 80 فٹ کی بلندی اور 55 یارڈ کا فاصلہ بچنا ناممکن تھا۔ تاہم بلندی اور فاصلہ کم ہونے کی وجہ سے اس کا پیراشوٹ نہ کھل سکا اور شدید جھٹکے سے زمین پر آ گرا۔ جھٹکا جان لیوا تھا مگر اس کو زندگی نے ایک اور موقع دیا اور وہ بچ گیا۔ اگر وہ اپنی جان بچاتا اور پہلے ایگزٹ کر جاتا تو وہ گاؤں یا وہ گھر بڑی تباہی سے دو چار ہو سکتا تھا۔

زخمی حالت میں جب اسے چارپائی پر لٹایا گیا
تو اس نے پہلا سوال کیا کہ کوئی جانی نقصان تو نہیں ہوا ۔۔۔۔؟

یہ ہے پاکستان ائیر فورس کے جوان کی اپنے ملک و قوم سے محبت

FB translate

Saad salute to your courage

The population of Pakistan air force was the brave pilot of the pakistan air force ạsḵwrڈn leader saad fire, he was able to save the 6 Village of a house. Now he was able to choose one of the two things. The destruction of this house or then his testimony, finally came to this house, he changed the face of his plane, and the only 7 seconds before the earth was NFL from the plane.
When He NFL The in, the height of 80 feet was the height of 80 feet and the distance of 55 yard was impossible. However, the height and the distance could not open his parachute, and came to the earth from severe shock. The shock was killed, but the life gave him another chance, and he survived. If he saves his life and the first NFL, he could have been two four of the village or the house of a big disaster.

In the wounded condition when it was put on the the
So he asked the first question that no jani hurts.

This is the young man of Pakistan air force, love from his country and nation

At least one house destroyed. Also check https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 0479220078

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Mar 2019 03:42

Google-Mangle:

Saad advise your courage.
The Pakistani Air Force's brave pilot scandal leader Saad had escaped a house flying to a flaming fire for ten minutes and was upstairs of a house. Now she had to choose one of the two things or the destruction of this house or her testimonies, eventually coming to this house, she changed her plane's face and exchanged the ship just 7 seconds before the earth collapsed.

At the time when he performed, technically a 80-foot height and a 55-yard distance was impossible. However, due to lack of height and distance, its parachute could not be opened and came to the ground with severe shock. The shock was taken, but gave life another chance and he escaped. If he saved his life and made an appointment, he could have been village or that house twice as big as possible.
In a wounded condition when it is removed on a trip. So he asked the first question that no loss happened. It is Pakistan's love force's youth to love our countrymen.

Absolutely no editing done by UBCN, though strongly tempted. All said and done, he is dead, some respect warranted. I think the pic shows the funeral prepped body, face visible.

I have not grasped the 80-foot and 55-yard thing. I gather that he tried to avoid houses, and had to eject at 80 feet, and 0-0 ejection did not perform as advertised, chute did not quite open, so he was severely wounded as he hit the ground. May have been already wounded. Apparently was alive until removed on stretcher.

This then is the pilot who was declared (int he very first report) as "critical injured and in hospital". Soon they said he was dead. For once the truth - of course they said that was an Indian pilot - may have been confused by the inexplicable choice made between the house and his "testimonies".

Revised: they are showing one of their dead F-16 pilots, with a covering story to explain his death as "training mission crash". Sad: it was a combat-related death in the herrowic mold, except beaten to death by kind compatriots. The photo of the F-17 is from 2017 (as they acknowledge!) but so is the crash; though they try to pass it off as happening in March 2019.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Mar 2019 03:54

Those images are from a F-7 crash near Mianwali in 2017
https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pakista ... -mianwali/

Rohitji, the PHOTO of the F-17 is from 2017 but the news below that one is from today (NZ shooting).
Is the crash also today's news I wonder. Maybe now they are posting a crash pic from the ill-fated din? Did they lose another plane besides the F-16? See the fB post on pilot not ejecting until very close to the ground.. that cannot be the F-16, those pilots both punched out at high altitude.
BTW, I didn't realize F-7 is basically MiG 17/19. Looks like a MiG-21 without the centerbody spike.
The crash could well be of a thundaar, to hide which they put up an old pic of an F-7. Location could be anywhere - no reason for them to tell the truth about that.

{Revised: The whole thing about bravely avoiding houses and ejecting at low altitude is probably paki-wash. Explains battered condition of F-16 co-pilot's body after gentle POKis were done with welcoming him back to earth.}

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 16 Mar 2019 04:35

UlanBatori wrote:Google-Mangle:
Saad advise your courage.
The Pakistani Air Force's brave pilot scandal leader Saad had escaped a house flying to a flaming fire for ten minutes and was upstairs of a house. Now she had to choose one of the two things or the destruction of this house or her testimonials....

At first I wondered what all this "house flying" business was all about.

Then it struck me.

Saad was a test pilot for a new and top-secret Pakistani aircraft project.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2019 05:36

nam wrote:We need to double down on stealth and SFDR. Next round should be larger grinding down of PAF.

Need to stop summer, winter , spring,night,day, evening trial cycle and get them on board quickly. Need to reduce the timelines.

I was reading BRF archives about 1965 which had description of MiG 21 and PAF.
The MiG-21 piloted by MSD Woolen fired a K13 Atoll AAM which promptly got attracted to Earth background thermal radiation and got dudded.

Wollen regretted not having a gun pack.

Compare to current encounter when Abhinandan fired a R73 against a F16 and downed it.
We have come a long way!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 06:53

Nothing except fear of Russians will say this, that stops GOI from making DRDO/BEL take a hard look at the R-73E, copying its airframe, propulsion and updating its electronics, sensors. Call it R73E LE (life extension) or some such name and do it. Quicker than ab-initio program for CCM, last us at least 20 years (~2 batches of production at 10 yrs each). Similarly, make an IIR version of the Astra by taking a good look at the MICA-IR. DRDO can even have a closed group at BDL do the integration, with BEL/pvt industry doing the sensors , propulsion/actuation etc coming from private sector. Clean, quick programs with minimal fuss to deliver max bang for the buck.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Mar 2019 07:02

Sorry to stick out my foot into this race, but how tough is it for Pakis and their sponsors to evolve tactics to beat a short-range IR AAM? Not taking anything away from WCdr Abhi, but is his victory something that can be replicated 40 times in quick succession (like next week) before they Pakis can change tactics, like Israel-Syria 1982 over Bekaa Valley (80 to 1)?

2 months from now may already be far too late. I bet LMAS, USAF, are all scrambling to fix this, not that PAF has any capability to innovate tactics other than Eject Both Pilots Upon Missile Warning.

IOW, why replicate the R-73? (R-73 is quite old...) Why not come out with something that has a few more tricks than the R-73?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2019 07:42

KaranM, ASRAAM choice was based on local production.
I get your push for DRDO to develop full spectrum.
The IIR sensor has lot of applications.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 16 Mar 2019 08:57

Best bet for our WVR design will be data from Astra. R 73 appears to have exotic shape control surfaces on its warhead probably modeled by some soviet era mathematician.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 16 Mar 2019 09:53

Karan M wrote:Nothing except fear of Russians will say this, that stops GOI from making DRDO/BEL take a hard look at the R-73E, copying its airframe, propulsion and updating its electronics, sensors. Call it R73E LE (life extension) or some such name and do it. Quicker than ab-initio program for CCM, last us at least 20 years (~2 batches of production at 10 yrs each). Similarly, make an IIR version of the Astra by taking a good look at the MICA-IR. DRDO can even have a closed group at BDL do the integration, with BEL/pvt industry doing the sensors , propulsion/actuation etc coming from private sector. Clean, quick programs with minimal fuss to deliver max bang for the buck.

Karan, But how will you reverse engineer algorithms?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2019 10:07

its a balance between higher range(asraam,mica) vs manouverability(r73,python5,aim9x,iris-t)

and everyone needs high quality "cooled" IIR seeker. for strike a/c looking to release a off-boresight shot at interceptors and escape quickly without picking a stand up fight, perhaps longer range is better and thats why french went for mica-IR. perhaps commonality and cost too played a role.

so there is no solution that brings every desirable facet to the table just as there is no perfect COTS wife.

Indian designers and IAF will need to sit together and decide what they want - it will drive the size of the missile, and its control surfaces.

its best we create the cooled IIR seeker for A2A application ourselves with subcomponents sourced from foreign players like elta, agat or sofradir but the design and IP should belong to us because -

we might need 2 models of IIR missile going forward. and progressive models with better parts. amraam-ER/D is a far cry from the amraam-A.
for sure many new upgrades to astra will come.

a "semi BVR" one for strike a.c self defence role - bigger and optimized for range than agility or speed. also for the BVR "sniper" role using IRST which will proliferate on all platforms - we already have it on Mig29/Su30 so thats 300 airframes and it will come on Tejas and AMCA for sure.

the other model would be a faster burning, less range, 50G capable close combat missile , the man to man, "Abhi v2.0" hittile.

some of our unique dusty, heavy rains and 53C type conditions will play its role (munnabao on barmer border is 53C in summer per a video I saw).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 12:41

darshhan wrote:
Karan M wrote:Nothing except fear of Russians will say this, that stops GOI from making DRDO/BEL take a hard look at the R-73E, copying its airframe, propulsion and updating its electronics, sensors. Call it R73E LE (life extension) or some such name and do it. Quicker than ab-initio program for CCM, last us at least 20 years (~2 batches of production at 10 yrs each). Similarly, make an IIR version of the Astra by taking a good look at the MICA-IR. DRDO can even have a closed group at BDL do the integration, with BEL/pvt industry doing the sensors , propulsion/actuation etc coming from private sector. Clean, quick programs with minimal fuss to deliver max bang for the buck.
Karan, But how will you reverse engineer algorithms?

We can crack all sorts of software using some methods...but we don't need to... that's where our own experience and capability comes into play...you have the outer characteristics down pat, and work from a given design & knowing how its "control law" reacts. You know the inputs. You have a good idea of the airframe, CFD work, windtunnels to validate.
I still think Astra IIR should be our next weapon.

Reading CAG reports & the number of hoops MOD babus jump through and delay things to avoid any claim of corruption makes for depressng reading. Once the DRDO bombs get into series production we can finally close out all this insane adherene to 10x process.

We currently have the following in some trial or the other:

HSLD (250,450,500kg)
FAE
GP (500 kg)
PGHSLD (250/450/500)
ASB Glide (30 km/100km including 1000kg bomb)
SANT
HELINA
Pralay
SAAW
Nirbhay

I think once the local arms pipeline starts, IAFs combat power will automatically increase 10x over today, with an endless supply of locally made gear available signed off by MOD babus without running themselves in hoops over this process, that ASQR, this RFP etc.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 12:42

Singha agree completely. Build the building blocks and then go from there.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2019 13:06

in general WVR AAMs want a strong ability to turn the nose fast to engage, including over shoulder shots and high off-boresight, while motor burn time is less....so fins are pushed right upto the nose to generate the maximum moment around center of rotation.

r73, aim9, p4, p5 follow this classical mould....p5 being the extreme embodiment
https://www.aerocontact.com/public/img/ ... 00x636.jpg

asraam is a wierd one with just 4 fins in the tail. so it indicates more a 'escape shot'/sniping role than a close combat missile
https://combatace.com/applications/down ... asraam.jpg

iris-T and mica-IR are more the matra530D template with midbody strakes and rear fins. I would say they belong more to the asraam school.

----

so IIR is just masking two types of missiles with different roles and users.

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Mar 2019 13:22

The difference must be how they are qued. Aim132 using Radar+IRST+Datalinks while Python using Eyes+HMCS.

So ASRAAM would do CC at longer range compare to Python doing last minute tricks. If Radar+IRST can see, why wait for the eyes to see.

Rafale would have had advantage with Meteor + MicaIR/ASRAAM+ IRST combo by staying within LoC, in the fight that just happened, from a purely technical point of view.

Always wondered the effect of night on HMCS.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 13:28

IRIS-T also claims some heavy duty stuff. It can shoot down other missiles, is dazzling laser protected (i.e. first gen DIRCMs wont work) etc.

Nam, Python can also be cued by radar.

HMCS also come with night mode (illuminated reticles) so that won't matter as a HMCS guy can cue the radar & the radar can cue the missile seeker which when locked down will give an audible. More challenging for sure than daylight fights.

One key difference between these missiles is some (Mica IR) have midcourse guidance via datalink, others (ASRAAM) don't.

IRIS-T refused to bid for IAF's ASRAAM order saying they were expensive, IAF was going to go for a L1 deal, didn't adequately reward their advanced tech with bid points and hence they would have a reputational loss if they lost. 11 air arms field them.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Mar 2019 14:02

Why do short range AAMs have to be IIR? Any reason why a radar seeker won't work?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 16 Mar 2019 14:11

IR uses passive seekers. Cheaper and less complicated.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 14:17

UlanBatori wrote:Sorry to stick out my foot into this race, but how tough is it for Pakis and their sponsors to evolve tactics to beat a short-range IR AAM? Not taking anything away from WCdr Abhi, but is his victory something that can be replicated 40 times in quick succession (like next week) before they Pakis can change tactics, like Israel-Syria 1982 over Bekaa Valley (80 to 1)? 2 months from now may already be far too late. I bet LMAS, USAF, are all scrambling to fix this, not that PAF has any capability to innovate tactics other than Eject Both Pilots Upon Missile Warning.

Its hard to beat off boresight, advanced seeker (dual color/IIR etc) missiles close in without investments in state of the art stuff (DIRCM, advanced flares, automated countermeasures without pilot intervention).

IOW, why replicate the R-73? (R-73 is quite old...) Why not come out with something that has a few more tricks than the R-73?

Speed.. you reverse engineer a proven design & get it in service fast, not that is easy either but we can at least build off some of the proven aerodynamics, CFD, windtunnel it. Innovate on the electronics, countermeasures side. Work on something "from scratch" in parallel.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 14:18

Prem Kumar wrote:Why do short range AAMs have to be IIR? Any reason why a radar seeker won't work?

Astra pretty much can go hot off the rails & has a radar seeker. No reason, but generally people prefer a mix of seekers for countermeasures resistance.

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 16 Mar 2019 14:22

Unless university research is sponsored as part of ongoing govt. investment efficient algorithms cannot be developed or re-mastered. Countries like China, Sweden etc. Universities play a big role in advancement of research in military platforms and systems. The industrialisation of such University led research is done by the industry players. The govt should make huge investments in upgrading many of the top Universities to proper industrial research grade. The industry-academia interface needs to be strengthened.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 14:25

We are already doing that without fanfare. Not everything is online.

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Mar 2019 15:46

Software is easier ; DSP filters for guidance are pretty fundamental and known nothing earth shattering happened there in last 10 years ; in fact what has happened is there is now much more compute power available on a small real estate today so it's even easier than before . The real deal is to get the entire system right , the burn profile of rocket motor , intercept path and airframe aerodynamics all have to come together . Reverse engineering is a good idea you can get the damn thing 3 d printed in no time , so prototypes can be expensive 3 d prints and production versions can be stamped parts . It's the seeker which is hard to master for there is no software to fix that it's material science and high precision manufacturing something we suck at when compared to writing software. Actually it's not like we are starting from scratch with Astra lot of the concepts are already mastered if someone can write guidance software for a radar guided missile one can for IIR based one too , it is the seeker which is the hard part here.

Will · Post by **Will** » 16 Mar 2019 15:49

Very soon expect the PAF to put out news that an F-16 has crashed during a “training” exercise and the pilot/pilots were killed.

. They won’t accept that it was shot down. A “crash” is how they will try to cover it up so that they can account for the lost F-16

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2019 16:12

chinese badminton players about to lose to indians usually retire hurt with some fake "injury"

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 16 Mar 2019 20:40

Will wrote:Very soon expect the PAF to put out news that an F-16 has crashed during a “training” exercise and the pilot/pilots were killed. . They won’t accept that it was shot down. A “crash” is how they will try to cover it up so that they can account for the lost F-16

Nah.. they will cover this up for years if not decades. Admitting a crash or a loss post return to status quo, they would never be able to spin any other story ("Our LY80 shot it down by mistake...") which we wouldn't laugh out of the park... Catch 22. Like the Kunduz airlift, nothing will come out from their side.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Mar 2019 21:01

Some comic relief from ISPR

https://twitter.com/OfficialDGISPR/stat ... 0807442432

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Mar 2019 21:08

More than the jet, if pilot has died it needs to be covered up. This can be done by any aircraft type crash.

US will help Pak cover up the F16 loss.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 16 Mar 2019 21:11

nam wrote:More than the jet, if pilot has died it needs to be covered up. This can be done by any aircraft type crash.

US will help Pak cover up the F16 loss.

Our guys should leak it out and make them publically disrespect a dead warrior by spouting their lies ("Passed away in unfortunate car accident.. etc"). Look out for any posthumous Hilals.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 21:21

This silent cover up will continue till US allows them to get some more 2 seaters from Norway or Turkey or Jordan or wherever. One will be quickly repainted, shown as having been cannibalized for spares, and displayed as the lost aircraft.. and they will pretend nothing happened. Jokers.