MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

tandav · Post by **tandav** » 17 Mar 2019 14:57

mmasand wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:Its an abdul doing aoa
Lets not get too carried away
Agree 100%, he's just raising slogans as seen in the video when they were taking him away. Every Abdul looks the same with their v shaped jaws and a beard. I could literally gather 10 Shahbaz look alikes in an hour.

Please post the video link then and we can end the speculation

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Mar 2019 15:02

I was reading on R-73/HMD combo and how it works from a book written by Piotr Butwoski

It seems the R-73 can be independently targeted by the aircraft radar or irst or just the hmd using likely the missile sensors , When in flight and manouvering it has no restriction on how it can be launched , When in flight the missile can track at far greater off-boresight ( +/- 75* )

All the pilot does during manouvering is it keeps the trigger pressed and once the missile acquires the target it auto launches it.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 17 Mar 2019 15:07

tandav wrote:
mmasand wrote:
Agree 100%, he's just raising slogans as seen in the video when they were taking him away. Every Abdul looks the same with their v shaped jaws and a beard. I could literally gather 10 Shahbaz look alikes in an hour.
Please post the video link then and we can end the speculation

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Mar 2019 16:17

I am glad Abhi didn’t suffer any serious injuries post ejection and any serious injuries from those PoK jihadis

In next conflict need to be careful we don’t enter pok airspace and use standoff weapon as much as possible

Next time our pilots many not be lucky and those jihadis are hit to kill types

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 17 Mar 2019 17:13

Quite disappointing to see the discussion continues on the identity of the guy with his hands raised. Do his clothes indicate a pilot's flight suit or inners? It's quite clearly not so.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Mar 2019 17:21

Austin wrote:I was reading on R-73/HMD combo and how it works from a book written by Piotr Butwoski

It seems the R-73 can be independently targeted by the aircraft radar or irst or just the hmd using likely the missile sensors , When in flight and manouvering it has no restriction on how it can be launched , When in flight the missile can track at far greater off-boresight ( +/- 75* )

All the pilot does during manouvering is it keeps the trigger pressed and once the missile acquires the target it auto launches it.

Very interesting. Matches what's here:
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-sys ... ile/r-73e/

Off-boresight/seeker deflection angle, deg
±45/±75

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Mar 2019 17:23

Anoop wrote:Quite disappointing to see the discussion continues on the identity of the guy with his hands raised. Do his clothes indicate a pilot's flight suit or inners? It's quite clearly not so.

+1

Tandav, move on. You have the video. Find better evidence.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Mar 2019 18:05

In next conflict need to be careful we don’t enter pok airspace and use standoff weapon as much as possible
^^^^

That wins award for self goal of the day
You want to fight tsp with zero losses? Afriad to even into pok? Not even god can achieve such

nam · Post by **nam** » 17 Mar 2019 18:14

One aspect people forgot is WC Abhi took the fight in to enemy airspace. IAF did not let PAF in to Indian airspace. Compare this to the strike on Balakot, where we went in and came back without any losses.

Our pilots if circumstance comes will be bailing out in enemy airspace. Their job is to take the fight to the enemy.

If WC Abhi was lynched by the jokers in Horan, the next set of video they would be uploading on youtube, is 155MM rounds slamming down their little village during a fire assault.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Mar 2019 18:17

We need to up our CSAR capability & invest more in disproportionate aids - would the F-16s even have pressed their attack home if there were 2-3 Prowler type aircraft behind the IAF CAP jamming their FCRs etc.
The IAF is an offensive AF & casualties are given but we owe it to them to give them as many advanced munitions & stand off EW support platforms as possible.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 17 Mar 2019 18:19

Actually, per the IA/IAF/IN press conf, PAF did breach our airspace briefly & also dropped munitions on or near IA battalion barracks. Luckily, the munitions did not explode or were not armed before dropping before scooting off and did not cause any damage.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Mar 2019 18:24

Zynda, they were forced to disengage before they could guide the PGMs in. They were EO PGMs (Denel Raptor, which need the pilot to guide them in).

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Mar 2019 19:53

What's with these narrow-window videos from TSP? Do they take videos through slits in the walls? Serious pooch.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 17 Mar 2019 21:49

UB Saar, these are cellphone videos shot with the phone held in 'portrait' mode onlee. That is the norm for videos now. I wouldn't wonder if movies switch to that format soon

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 18 Mar 2019 00:27

nam wrote:One aspect people forgot is WC Abhi took the fight in to enemy airspace. IAF did not let PAF in to Indian airspace. Compare this to the strike on Balakot, where we went in and came back without any losses.

Our pilots if circumstance comes will be bailing out in enemy airspace. Their job is to take the fight to the enemy.

If WC Abhi was lynched by the jokers in Horan, the next set of video they would be uploading on youtube, is 155MM rounds slamming down their little village during a fire assault.

+1001

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 18 Mar 2019 01:15

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of ... -21-wreck/

Appolgies of already posted

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Mar 2019 04:16

^BS video of interlacing the engine debris video of F16 with Mig21 crash

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 18 Mar 2019 05:35

Karan M wrote:We need to up our CSAR capability & invest more in disproportionate aids - would the F-16s even have pressed their attack home if there were 2-3 Prowler type aircraft behind the IAF CAP jamming their FCRs etc.
The IAF is an offensive AF & casualties are given but we owe it to them to give them as many advanced munitions & stand off EW support platforms as possible.

You are spot on Karan. I will say even if have S-400 placed somewhere in Northern Punjab/Kashmir, TSPAF will not be able to fly even CAP missions inside their own border as well. Forget about attacking us ...

We do need both stand off and escort jamming capability. EW is expensive game TSP will be pressed very hard to match that. MKI squadron can be converted into dedicated growler aircraft. Long time back when I mentioned about this on BRF we dismissed this because it was too expensive.

We should work with Israel on this project. Chinese IADs will proliferate into their neighborhood and will probably be fielded by their adversaries. In 10+ years time TSP may field them as well and at that time we will need integrated approach to defeat the threat -- Stand off/Escort jammers + Stand off Decoys + Long range Supersonic ARMs

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 18 Mar 2019 07:05

My doodle, A tribute to our F16 Slayer!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Mar 2019 07:41

Superb

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 18 Mar 2019 08:21

https://twitter.com/theeagle_pdf/status ... 10016?s=21

Mig21’s missiles

*how to obtain the image url from twitter that can render here

*don't put enter before the img tags.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Mar 2019 08:22

Awesome! I know yet another rakshakah by name Raja Bose!

who is an excellent artist [caricatures I have seen right here on GDF]

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Mar 2019 08:40

Mig21 flies with 2r77 and 2r73

One of both is missing. R77 may be damaged beyond repair and the r73 got lost inside the f16 tailpipe

We dont know if one pylon had a jammer

So anyway 3 or 4 missiles and centerline supersonic drop tank

One or both missile is missing in pic

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Mar 2019 08:47

There you have it, proof of R77s in IAF operational service.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Mar 2019 08:52

Karan M wrote:There you have it, proof of R77s in IAF operational service.

Why was that even required ? Seen many AI with 29 and Bison carrying R-77

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Mar 2019 08:58

1x centerline tank, 2× r73, 1x r77, 1x ew pod is a feasible combo.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Mar 2019 09:00

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:There you have it, proof of R77s in IAF operational service.
Why was that even required ? Seen many AI with 29 and Bison carrying R-77

Those AI displays are with inert rounds.
Constant concerns on BRF and elsewhere based on claims R77s supplied to IAF didnt work and hence we moved en masse to R27. Even I believed it for a while till I dug up evidence to the contrary.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Mar 2019 09:18

They always display things with Inert Round , Raarely if at all any public display would have real warhead.

Yes there was report with R-77 showing issue after they were kept in storage and used , issuewas with how they were stored/climatic condition impacted their electronics later these were rectified team came from russia etc......from memory CAG also mentoned range of 90 km for R-77 ( beyond the advertised 80 km ) and 2 cr cost of each .around 2000 procured after kargil

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 18 Mar 2019 09:28

Singha wrote:One of both is missing. R77 may be damaged beyond repair and the r73 got lost inside the f16 tailpipe

Could it be that one of the R77s was fired at another of the retreating PAF jets to chase them away?

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Mar 2019 10:06

Well the poodle might have by now passed on the wreckage to the yellow master for close inspection.

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Mar 2019 10:19

On a side note I believe BVR engagements in Himalayan region is going to be tricky for an AC in theory can easily break the lock should it dive low and then fly low and slow between the ridges , nothing fancy like they show in the movies but a measured move easier to pull off when you know the bogey is > 20/30 km out . So usage of R77 from our end cannot be ruled out , we may not get the full details of what actually happened but I guess IAF knows the terrain all too well and hence it came down to a close range engagement .

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Mar 2019 10:24

From the pics it seems Pakis have recovered 1 R-73 and 1 R-77, possible that we played by the peacetime restrictive ROE whereas the Pakis used all tactics, a common trait in India -Pak encounter, IAF has gone on record as per ROE they warned PAF twice. We should have changed the ROE after 26 Feb 2019, but then this was a unique situation which IAF hadn't gamed. Next time probably the IAF would start BVR shots when these guys are flying fast and close to the LOC.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 18 Mar 2019 10:27

negi wrote:Well the poodle might have by now passed on the wreckage to the yellow master for close inspection.

PLAAF already has R77 on their MKKs.

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Mar 2019 10:32

It is not that simple R-77 has evolved over the time and Chinese would always be curious to lay their hands on actual sample that served with the IAF to see and compare. The data link for instance can be different .

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Mar 2019 10:45

But after the crash, any software and electronics is probably damaged and useless, only the main hardware bits seem to have survived.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Mar 2019 11:01

the missiles look fairly undamaged not even dented much.
it almost seems like the Mig21 did not crash vertically from high level but glided in for a controlled crash landing and wing sheared off a little.
imo it does with UBCN call of a engine flameout , and Abhi gliding in as much as he could and ejecting from a lowish level. the fight is said to have moved from low to high and then to low again, which is when the F_solah got snagged.....

contrast the remnants of the ethiopian crash and the mig21 in video. the ethiopian pkane hardly has anything left despite being a large plane. people are unable to find even identifiable body parts and are burying soil.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Mar 2019 12:42

can any one vouch for authenticity of the image & not a mockup ?

Its hard to believe these missile wont have got burnt partially or completely in such crash , unless the wings got dismembered in air and felt apart from fuselage that got burnt .....coming from them need to be skeptical

nam · Post by **nam** » 18 Mar 2019 12:50

The R73 had a broken seeker head near the left side wing in the image of the Mig21 debris.

Interesting the R77 head is burnt, not the tail. Must have burnt after hitting the ground.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Mar 2019 14:24

At the end of the day PAF myths continue, probably even the political leaders should have told the IiAF to relax ROE which could have down some of the PAF strike aircraft especially some in our side of loc while landing that would have made the PAF nanga. Something everyone at the top in India should have analysed. We went out of the way to avoid miltary causualties to them yet they broke all ROE, 's from trying to attack our miltary installations to firing BVR shots at our aircraft well within our side of the LOC.
Institutionally India should learn Pakis only concentrate on what is effective and don t care about anything else. For them to learn thier lessons we need to deal with them in similar manner

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Mar 2019 15:11

Yes it was failure of our political rulers to anticipate that all dharmic “rules” would be broken despite giving them a face saver exit route of non military terror target and zero civilian kia

We were lucky to escape with no lives lost and 1:1 exchange ratio fighting with one arm against someone who follows no indic rules

Chalo fool me once shame on you but fool me twice and its shame on me

I hope there is blanket signoff to throw the kitchen sink next time they try a stunt or mass attack including dollowing their retreating ac with a missile barrage on their base timed to arrive with them

One has to adapt to survive with the pakis thats for sure and indic age old rules like do not attack the defenceless have zero meaning