MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 19 Mar 2019 23:44

Manish_Sharma wrote: What is RMA?

Revolution in Military Affairs.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Mar 2019 23:55

Red Baron - Fokker Drei Decker (amongst others), but not a Focke Wulf

"there i was at 20,000 ft, in a hard turning fight with those focke's... and then one of those focke's turned out to be a messerschmitt!"

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Mar 2019 00:20

Snehashis wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote: What is RMA?
Revolution in Military Affairs.

think "network centric warfare" - whoever commands the information (flow) network - wins
unkil is the master, other nato are chamchas
Ru and Ch trying to catch up

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 20 Mar 2019 01:55

Looking at the reason why SU-30 did not fire BVR shots. Astra which has a stated range of 105 kms, clarifies that this is the range in the head on mode. this means when the opponent is flying towards the launch aircraft. The same missile has a range of 20 kms for a tail chase scenerio. These number would not be very different for R-77. It would not make any sense to fire the R-77 unless the targets were within about 20 kms, which the F-16 avoided at all costs. This goes to prove that Indian pilots are more disciplined and not just taking potshots at PAF.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Mar 2019 02:54

UlanBatori wrote:
But he has a telling point, why is the PAF not displaying all its F-16s? That itself shows the reality.
Jaganji knows the answer
Of 40+ F-16s supplied by US, fewer than 10 ~~are~~ were operational. The rest are donkey-carts.
Also, I am tired of hearing this "their Premier Combat Aircraft was defeated by Our Old Rust-Bucket" etc.
Someone should please check into the actual age since last update, of the Paki Blockhead 1986-delivered F-16s vs. the MiG-21 BIS that WCdr Abhi flew.
My point is that the current fleet of 600 "aged" Indian-made, BIS-upgraded MiG-21s are each far superior to PAF's Blockhead-1986 F-16s. All 87 of them.

Look what happened in classic, one-on-one close-in dogfight, where the F-16's Made4Maneuver capabilities proved no match for the MiG and they ended up with the MiG right up their tail (classic end-of-dogfight, ever since Baron Ludwig Von Richthofen the Red Baron's Focke-Wulf.

PAF F-16s are properly renamed F-A-16s (Focked-Ass 16s.)
Now bring in those Tejas squadrons to complete the massacre...

UB, there were severe serviceability issues with the initial batch of 40 F-16A/Bs delivered to the PAF in the 80s. That was mainly due to the Pressler Amendment in the early 1990s. Since then, those F-16s were give a MLU upgrade by TAI of Turkey I believe. Their serviceability would have improved from the prior low availability. The 14 F-16s from Jordan also went through a MLU upgrade and the 18 F-16 Block 50/52s are not flogged. They will preserve them, because those 18 birds are their only state-of-the-art fighter. They have squadrons only in name and number, but are wholly inadequate to go into battle.

We know now, that while the squadron shortage with the IAF is a serious issue, the IAF is largely much better off material and personnel wise when compared to the PAF. There was no need for their 24-aircraft strike package to run back to mommy at the first sight of 8 IAF aircraft ready to strike them. The PLAAF is definitely larger in number, but their airbases in Tibet do not give them the luxury to carry a significant payload. In the words of Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa Sir, the IAF will overwhelm the PAF and is able to give a bloody nose to the PLAAF.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Mar 2019 04:27

Rakesh, whenever I read accounts from Pakistan (like the Proceedings of the Balochistan Assembly) I have learned to apply a transform filter. Thus, "Assembly" comes to my eyes as "Jirga". IOW, they may use lofty words that show off their Angreji, but they are corrupt, cruel savages with the kindness and native wisdom of an East London mugger or a Silicon Valley CEO, and the modern civilization of a Sentinel (sorry to insult the Sentinels, but pls read what I am comparing).

So when they say: "18 Block 52 Upgraded Lockheed F-16s in battle ready condishun, Saar!!" my eyes read:

18 rusting airframes from which most of the expensive metal parts have been stripped out and sold, the landing gear tyres have been replaced with Multan-M60 scooter tyres, and the radar dish has been ripped off for the Jarnail to watch Hasina Atim Bum on TV after his Bibi has gone to snore.

It is a wonder that they got 2 of them to fly, now one won't be flying except in Havaii Houristan.

Long time ago my 6th coujin thrice removed was sitting in a room full of blue uniforms glittering with medals, deep inside a very scary place with electrified fences all round. A poor sod was presenting on the Fleet Readiness of F-XXXs.

We are at hunred percent readiness, SSSSIRRRR!!!!
What he was trying to convey w/o getting taken out and shot (the guy was shaking..) was that his planes were coming in with tails broken and hanging by a couple of fibers, etc etc and he was looking at a complete grounding in a couple of months.

Bottom line: I don't believe a ******* word of what the Pakis claim. Of course you know why, with your long experience.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 20 Mar 2019 06:54

Shameek wrote:Turkey is participating in their parade. Maybe forget to take one F-16 back! With the missile pictures they are back to claiming 2 or even 3 IAF aircraft shot down. What a sad state of existence to have to live off imaginary glories due to the lack of real ones.

I reckon each aircraft including F-16 that flies in for this charade, will be observed and noted by many around the world, then this number will be mapped against the ones that fly out.

If there's one missing, shouldn't be too difficult to find out.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Mar 2019 14:44

unkil already knows, they have people on bases counting amreeki supplied maal regularly

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 20 Mar 2019 14:51

Unkil may know, but it's important for us to know this as well.

I believe we must be keeping track of these "visits"

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Mar 2019 15:27

they have recently retired military officers on deputation - they live in Isloo or somewhere nice, enjoy the social scene and club life and then go on regular tours to the bases and audit the inventory. A couple of years later they go back to the US with some extra cash for retirement. i am sure that they are known to RAW and are tracked

chola · Post by **chola** » 20 Mar 2019 15:54

Rakesh wrote:The PLAAF is definitely larger in number, but their airbases in Tibet do not give them the luxury to carry a significant payload. In the words of Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa Sir, the IAF will overwhelm the PAF and is able to give a bloody nose to the PLAAF.

Prior to Doklam, the PLAAF had 8 fighters in Tibet (yes, just EIGHT.) After Doklam, they've raised it to an awesome 32.*

The IAF will overwhelm the PAF for sure but will annihilate any likely rump force the PLAAF can put up. The PAF is the greater threat but still not much of one.

We always used the two-front war as an excuse to buy phoren for immediate satisfaction but it is bullshit. We can develop and induct the Tejas, MWF and NLCA and still have more than enough with what we have now to crush threats from both Pak and Cheen. We are not in a very military impressive neighborhood.

*https://theprint.in/opinion/china-dokla ... you/39851/
China appears to have quadrupled its permanently based fighters from 8 to 32 at four airbases

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Mar 2019 09:26

Promises Made, Promises....

As a side note, sometimes I wonder when we ask these questions are we gauging what the Americans will put on a potential sale of combat aircraft to India? I do not know how true any of the below is, but FWIW....

Pak AMRAAMs can be made ineffective: US assured Manohar Parrikar
https://www.indiandefencenews.co.in/pak ... -parrikar/

The United States had assured India that Pakistan won’t use F16s and Amraams (advanced medium range air-to-air missiles) for offensive purposes as the US had an effective end-user monitoring process and the systems could be made ineffective if they were misused.

Sources who were part of the discussions between Parrikar and Carter in 2015 said two specific issues were raised in discussions that took place in New Delhi and Washington. “One of the issues was that the AMRAAMs have a long range and they cannot be used against terrorists but would be targeted at us,” a three-star rank officer who was part of the discussions told ET. Carter responded to this by assuring that the missiles will not be used against India and the US has a mechanism to make them ineffective if they are used during war. “If they use it for an offensive purpose, they can interfere with the mechanism and make them ineffective,” the officer, who was involved in the talks, told ET.

The second issue was the potential of misuse of F16s to deliver nuclear bombs against India. “An assurance was given that in case of a potential nuclear attack, the US can disable the aircraft. That, if they use nukes, they won’t be able to operate the F-16s,” the officer said.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Mar 2019 09:45

Confirmation of the famous kill-switch. What can be done to them, can be done to us. Never buy Yank fighters.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 21 Mar 2019 09:46

If Amreekis can remotely tweak or even disable Baki aircrafts, what stops them from doing the same to our own- existing and potential- fleet of Unkil's maal?

A clear indicator that we should stay clear of F-16s and F-18s.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Mar 2019 09:54

Do not say things like this. The American apologists on BRF will accuse you of having a mindset of a 1990s India and will roll their eyes at the very thought that the US would do something this dastardly against India.

We are America's major defence partner. India is a natural and strategic partner to the US. How could the US do something like that to India?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Mar 2019 09:58

Assuming this article is true, can someone explain how they plan to disable F-16s, if they find out that Pakistan is using them to drop nuclear weapons? What is the point of disabling the F-16, after they have dropped the bomb? Or is it more sinister than that?

VikasM · Post by **VikasM** » 21 Mar 2019 10:23

Is the kill switch applicable to the one they sourced direct? Is that an extra piece of hardware chip like embedded with GPS or a line of code or two? Just trying to figure the excuse. Oh well, we remove the killall code from all, sans the one headed to TSP. So the ones they used was Jordanian, you know. I don't buy the dud theory of AMRAAM too. It wouldn't have launched. Don't think a missile is programmed to fly half ass. There.. I can think too, despite a brown skin.

habal · Post by **habal** » 21 Mar 2019 10:42

F16 is fly-by-wire no, infact one of the first platforms built as fbw. It should be theoritically possible to control it's direction, altitude, fcs etc remotely if it's manufacturer so wished.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 21 Mar 2019 10:47

To me it also seems like an attempt to down play IAF's neutralising of multiple AMRAAMs and assigning "credit" where none is due.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Mar 2019 10:50

Karan M wrote:Confirmation of the famous kill-switch. What can be done to them, can be done to us. Never buy Yank fighters.

This is done through the common communication systems which India has now signed with the US. Unkil can probably push software disabling via satellite. Probably a very small package. COMCASA has its consequences.

If unkil can do this, so can the French, Russians and Swedes. Better for India to develop its own weapon system platforms.

VikasM · Post by **VikasM** » 21 Mar 2019 10:54

True but if the remote piloting was so advanced then, we would have more predators and Ravens in 80s. I'm just questioning remote manouvering capabilities. Agree to remote kill but intent is questionable too. Pardon me if I'm talking beyond the comprehension of a civilian who knows nothing beyond boarding a 767.

Edit: Concur to explanation of common communication system.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Mar 2019 10:58

Guys anywhere we can one the orginal dogfight videos which were airing on 27 Feb 2019 on republic world, it was 3-5 minutes, not just after one the jets was shot down

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Mar 2019 11:03

VikasM wrote:True but if the remote piloting was so advanced then, we would have more predators and Ravens in 80s. I'm just questioning remote manouvering capabilities. Agree to remote kill but intent is questionable too. Pardon me if I'm talking beyond the comprehension of a civilian who knows nothing beyond boarding a 767.

Edit: Concur to explanation of common communication system.

It isn't a remote kill, but disabling critical parts of the system through IFF or weapons guidance system. The AIM-120s were provided after 2008.

habal · Post by **habal** » 21 Mar 2019 11:16

Think of fbw F16 being the technology incubators for the later models of reapers and predators. The data link also is a suspect in case of remote management, just read that the Link 16 data link used by the F16 have both 'line of sight' as well as satellite link capabilities to transfer data through TCP/IP. Any attempt to tamper with these may disable FCS.

chetonzz · Post by **chetonzz** » 21 Mar 2019 11:27

just for fun...i made these GIFs

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 21 Mar 2019 11:30

Mort Walker wrote:
VikasM wrote:True but if the remote piloting was so advanced then, we would have more predators and Ravens in 80s. I'm just questioning remote manouvering capabilities. Agree to remote kill but intent is questionable too. Pardon me if I'm talking beyond the comprehension of a civilian who knows nothing beyond boarding a 767.

Edit: Concur to explanation of common communication system.
It isn't a remote kill, but disabling critical parts of the system through IFF or weapons guidance system. The AIM-120s were provided after 2008.

..and how will that work ? The IFF circuit linkage is understood as it is designed with intent to avoid fratricide. But weapon guidance ?? You will need physical access to the aeroplane for that. Using the Link 16 as a backdoor is an option - but then the aeroplane needs to be equipped with Satnav, rather than LOS links.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 21 Mar 2019 11:59

An article by Air Mshl Harish Masand (Ret'd) - worth a read...http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... an-answers
He ponders over some unanswered (as of now) questions that have occurred to some of us as well ..

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 21 Mar 2019 13:00

chetonzz wrote:just for fun...i made these GIFs

Can you increase the time on each mig to be 2 seconds.
Its so fast that its becoming hard to be of any use.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Mar 2019 15:03

kill switch is fine in theory but complicated in practice - putting the news out there is repeating an H&D loss for the paks

the amraams missed because they were fired in panic without proper firing solutions being locked in from long range so that the mighty fizzlies could squirt n spurt and go back to base shouting A-o-A!
and IAF has good counter measures

note the early frenzied proclamation of 2 saffron bandits down going around the news wires - likely came from the long range pot shot crew and their awacs controller, little knowing that abhi had already bagged the D. the paf strike package probably got home with an urgent need to change chuddies and a 'where's the boss gone?' look of panic on their faces

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Mar 2019 15:15

Thing is I doubt that their AWACS + fighter guys went up against the cream of opfor, with the intensity that we have. We have gone up against some really hard customers like the RAF Tornado F3s and E3 AWACS who have mauled even F-15s repeatedly in NATO exercises. Against cutting edge equipment adversaries, including EF Typhoons in UK & India, against Rafales in France & in India. These guys give no mercy in the air & expect none. As a result we know the limits of our capabilities and what we can and should do. Our guys have acquitted themselves well in all these exercises. We have gone up against the USAF, RAF, FAF, South Africans, Singaporeans repeatedly. At least 4 of these AF are equipped with the best & greatest and all 4 field AWACS.

That edge, which comes from such heavy duty training shows up in SOPs and crisp responses from the fighter crew. Which is why the Su-30s evaded those AMRAAMs & which is why Abhi too did not break off his attack despite the BVR threat and went after the F-16. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a veteran of the IAF Su-30/Mirage/MiG-29/Bison vs RSAF F-16 matchup which happens at KKD.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Mar 2019 15:19

I think firing AMRAAM's and GCI and SAAB erieye seeing 2 planes go down they happily assumed an SU 30 is falling down along with ground confirmation that 2 parachutes coming down and announced to the world, only later it was realised 1 of them was an F-16.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Mar 2019 15:25

Aditya_V wrote:I think firing AMRAAM's and GCI and SAAB erieye seeing 2 planes go down they happily assumed an SU 30 is falling down along with ground confirmation that 2 parachutes coming down and announced to the world, only later it was realised 1 of them was an F-16.

Yes, and this kind of confusion would be much more common in raw crews who lose track of a maneuvering fight with a lot of R/T calls and different bogies on their screens.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 21 Mar 2019 15:36

not in raw crews but brainwashed crews !! and incompetent jarnails like Gen Guffawoor who are more keen on publicity rather than facts. the AEW crew would have said; AEW: janab, do tayare gir gaye hain AoA ISPR: wah wah !! dushman ke hi ho sakte hain. Hamare tayare arabi nasal ke hain, Allah mian ne hi banaye hain apne haathon se ..usme Djinn tech hai ! AoA AEW: beshak janab, kufr ke tayare hi hain.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Mar 2019 15:40

the americans are aware that if they train the PAF too much, it may be used against them one day or be used to interfere in their zone of interest in afghanistan, so i am sure that they don't tell the PAF too much of use

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 21 Mar 2019 15:44

Karan M wrote:Thing is I doubt that their AWACS + fighter guys went up against the cream of opfor, with the intensity that we have. We have gone up against some really hard customers like the RAF Tornado F3s and E3 AWACS who have mauled even F-15s repeatedly in NATO exercises. Against cutting edge equipment adversaries, including EF Typhoons in UK & India, against Rafales in France & in India. These guys give no mercy in the air & expect none. As a result we know the limits of our capabilities and what we can and should do. Our guys have acquitted themselves well in all these exercises. We have gone up against the USAF, RAF, FAF, South Africans, Singaporeans repeatedly. At least 4 of these AF are equipped with the best & greatest and all 4 field AWACS.

That edge, which comes from such heavy duty training shows up in SOPs and crisp responses from the fighter crew. Which is why the Su-30s evaded those AMRAAMs & which is why Abhi too did not break off his attack despite the BVR threat and went after the F-16. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a veteran of the IAF Su-30/Mirage/MiG-29/Bison vs RSAF F-16 matchup which happens at KKD.

Abhi was a Su-30 pilot before so he would be well versed with both red/blue tactics from internal dissimilar combat exercises.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 21 Mar 2019 16:23

Rakesh wrote:Pak AMRAAMs can be made ineffective: US assured Manohar Parrikar
https://www.indiandefencenews.co.in/pak ... -parrikar/

They will disable AMRAAMS AFTER a potential nuke strike(successful or failed)? What's the point then? It would be too late!!!

habal · Post by **habal** » 21 Mar 2019 16:32

Considering the transparent nature of f16, it is likely that arming an f16 with dissimilar non-nato payload (like a paki nuke is not a nato payload) other than AIM-9/120 or GBU will trigger alert in pentagon via onboard sensor that a non-approved payload has been loaded and armed. This is imperitive because a paki jehadi pilot can also fly an f16 over a US base and drop payload over there. There will be systems in place to deal with this violation before any act has been committed. Although we should not trust unkil or anybody completely in this matter, I doubt if f16 can be used anymore for nuke payload.

It is easier for them to use the jf17 or mirage 3/5 as a bomb truck on one way suicide mission flying out of/returning back to one of their highways.

negi · Post by **negi** » 21 Mar 2019 16:34

Even before we saw them coming Unkil would have seen and detected them mobilising the F-16s , selling your own wares gives one some distinct advantage and leverage . AM Masand's point about we not mobilising in enough numbers is something which I subscribe to as well but that's perhaps not palatable to folks who only like bojitive vibes.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 21 Mar 2019 17:31

I read AM Masand's article with interest. A couple of points:

Also, if the MiG-21 was shot down immediately after the F-16, surely the F-16 wreckage should also be close to where the MiG-21 came down just a few kilometers across the LoC. If that be so, why is it that we have not been able to acquire the imagery of that crash site/wreckage? Also, why didn’t Abhinandan launch the longer range R-77 missile instead of choosing to chase the F-16 for an R-73 CCM launch, as has been reported.

1. Has anyone published the sat/other image of the "crash site" of the MiG as in smoke& fire, zooming in to the wreckage? If not, why expect to see similar footage of the F-16 crash site?
2. Why would the MiG assume that a long-range R-77 would hit a 2-seater F-16 equipped as an electronic target designator, and presumably with enough ECM to escape? For that matter, NONE of the Indian planes appears to have used long-range missiles. The MiG fired one or two missiles, apparently, and at least one hit. Have the Pakis displayed ALL the missiles carried by the MiG as being not-fired?

Getting back to (1), if an AAM hits straight into the afterburner duct and explodes, how much of a "crash site" is left? I would think there might be debris spread over a few square km, but parts that emit big fire and smoke may be only a few. Usually it is the engine and wing fuel tanks and the burning aluminum of the fuselage + burning tires of the landing gear, but with a missile hit right inside, most of these would have got fragmented.

This raises the question of how 2 parachutes bloomed from the F-16: the obvious answer is that both ejected when they realized that the MiG was right behind and had a missile lock on them.

3. The AM also raises the question of why IAF didn't shoot down all 24. Well... for one thing, did ANY actually cross the LOC? Their bombs and missiles may have, but if they did cross, it was 1 or two, just long enough to say:

NaNaNaNa! I put my foot across the line for a second!

4. The AM claims that "it was not a case of just the two aircraft dogfighting" (I may be paraphrasing). Is that true? Even the vapor trails shown, indicate just 2 aircraft anywhere in the observable sky. Why make such a claim? Doesn't that answer his own question about why the R-73 was used? It WAS a one-on-one chase and execution. With good reason: the 2-seater F-16 was a target designator, so chasing that also broke off the ability of the heavier bomb-carriers to hit targets. Isn't that the essence of modern interception/air defense?

Given all these, I found the AM's article to be a bit like reading the tweets from Pakistan, except written in pukka Angreji, sorry. Deja vu of Admiral "Golf" Nadkarni's articles demanding that the LCA project be cancelled.

Of course it is commendable that the AM suggests more introspection in the IAF about what stores to carry etc.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 21 Mar 2019 17:40

About these ideas of Pentagon Being Alerted When Pakis Do This Or That: people, do some thinking pls. Would you believe that about the Dilli Billis Receiving Alerts? This is the Superhuman Bheshterner Syndrone (Super-BS). The missiles probably have little GeePeeEss receivers that don't function outside of certain map areas. Maybe they actively disable navigation of the missiles. As for nuke-prohibition I have no idea: maybe a simple Geiger Counter that triggers a kill switch.

Maybe the F-16 pilots hit the "PHYRRR!!!" button and discovered that it was instead wired to the Ejection Seats by RAA Agints.