Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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sudeepj
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 17 Mar 2019 01:08

Thanks! Looks like still early days for this missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 17 Mar 2019 01:16



Just waiting to see when MBDA offers "full TOT" and integration for the Meteor on the LCA :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 17 Mar 2019 08:00

kurup wrote:Nirbhay Test scheduled for next week ( March 18/19/20 )

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1106877919484219393



Awesome. Is this Manik powered?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 17 Mar 2019 09:54

^^ several on brf say manik

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby VinodTK » 17 Mar 2019 21:14

First-ever missile system MRO facility to be set up in Hyderabad
Hyderabad: Adding one more feather to the cap of Telangana , Kalyani Group, which has interests in defence and aerospace segments, will set up the first ever missile system MRO (Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul) facility in Hyderabad, said Rudra B Jadeja, Chief Executive of Bharat Forge.

“This system MRO is first of its kind in the city as it is for missile systems, not for aircraft. It calls for diverse expertise,” he said.



Jadeja was in the city for the inauguration of the Centre of Excellence in RF and Microwave Engineering and to make the engineering students ready for the emerging areas.

Speaking at the event, Jadeja said the missile MRO will be established in the premises of Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems (KRAS), a joint venture of Kalyani Group and Rafael Advanced Systems, a leading defence OEM based in Israel for undertaking programmes under Make in India scheme, here.

The joint venture will enable indigenous production of high tech air defence systems, anti-tank guided missiles, new generation precision guided munitions among others.

“We will soon make an announcement on the missile MRO,” said Jadeja, refusing to divulge additional information on the new project.

Industries Principal Secretary Jayesh Ranjan, who inaugurated the new CoE, said Telangana will continue to attract new investments in areas of engines, composites, MROs and other components of the aerospace and defence ecosystem.

“The invested companies are contented with their experience here. One of the key areas is engine manufacturing. As of now, the company GE has begun its operations. Safran has recently announced big investments and we are looking forward to attract more players,” he said.

“Defence and aerospace segment in the city is sturdy. Many companies have begun their operations in the city over the past four decades. There are around 1,000 companies operating here with around 300 of them being focused in defence electronics. Many flagship programmes are happening in the city,” he said.

Speaking of the training to be imparted by CoE, he said: “The usage of missiles is getting advanced and radio frequency and microwave segments are playing an important role.” The 10-month training programme with 15 students in each batch will be offered in cooperation with Telangana Academy of Skill and Knowledge. The CoE will also continue research and development apart from the training programme.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2019 22:15

Fancy way of saying Rafael does not want to even transfer seeker maintenance tech to Indian industry and wants its JV to reap the benefits over the lifecycle of the LRSAM (a dozen ships), MRSAM (9 IAF squadrons), IA MRSAM (2 regiments, equal in number to the IAF order).. anyhow. Let the eqpt at least be decently serviceable.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Mar 2019 10:29

True but atyleast keeps spares, repair capabilities within India, so Inventories, availability rates and are much higher.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 18 Mar 2019 15:46

kurup wrote:Nirbhay Test scheduled for next week ( March 18/19/20 )

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1106877919484219393


Any updates on the test today?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nash » 18 Mar 2019 17:03

Karthik S wrote:
kurup wrote:Nirbhay Test scheduled for next week ( March 18/19/20 )

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1106877919484219393


Any updates on the test today?


May be on Tuesday or Wednesday.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kurup » 18 Mar 2019 18:21

Karthik S wrote:
kurup wrote:Nirbhay Test scheduled for next week ( March 18/19/20 )

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1106877919484219393


Any updates on the test today?


No updates yet.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 18 Mar 2019 21:20

^^^^

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1107528248429166593 ---> DRDO better complete the Nirbhay LRCM & Pralay SRBM projects quickly, because a chorus of 'Tomahawks being offered to India' might emerge. Way things are headed, India might also be 'offered' whatever comes out of the LRPF programme or even old ATACMS as an alternative to Pralay.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1107533012076355585 ---> *BTW, LRPF has now been renamed as the Precision Strike Missile or PRISM program by the US Army.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 18 Mar 2019 21:20

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1107543968902873088 ----> A major evolution in the capabilities of land-based surface to surface missiles is underway. I hope the Indian Army's Artillery Corps embraces these in right earnest, while the Air Force realizes that such capabilities will provide cross-domain support & supplement air power.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1107630044950597632 ---> Incidentally, apart from New Delhi, the Republic Day Parade in Kolkata has been quite interesting to watch in recent years. Brahmos, Pinaka, Bofors and Smerch are all put on display in a not so subtle message to the Chinese.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 18 Mar 2019 21:27

Rakesh wrote:^^^^

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1107528248429166593 ---> DRDO better complete the Nirbhay LRCM & Pralay SRBM projects quickly, because a chorus of 'Tomahawks being offered to India' might emerge. Way things are headed, India might also be 'offered' whatever comes out of the LRPF programme or even old ATACMS as an alternative to Pralay.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1107533012076355585 ---> *BTW, LRPF has now been renamed as the Precision Strike Missile or PRISM program by the US Army.


Hope one day soon, Tridents are offered to India.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby jaysimha » 19 Mar 2019 14:52

L&T Delivers 100th Transport Launch Canister for
BRAHMOS Missile from its Newly Augmented Facility
http://www.larsentoubro.com/corporate/media/
http://www.larsentoubro.com/media/39454 ... cility.pdf

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Mar 2019 15:12

jaysimha wrote:L&T Delivers 100th Transport Launch Canister for
BRAHMOS Missile from its Newly Augmented Facility
http://www.larsentoubro.com/corporate/media/
http://www.larsentoubro.com/media/39454 ... cility.pdf



Reading the link and editing

Marking a key milestone in India’s journey towards self-reliance through Make in India, L&T Defence, a trusted industry partners of BrahMos Aerospace Pvt. Ltd. (BAPL), today delivered the 100th set of BRAHMOS Transport-Storage Launch Canister (TLC) to BAPL from its recently augmented manufacturing facility at Ranoli, Vadodara in Gujarat.


Speaking on the occasion, Mr. J D Patil, Whole-time Director (Defence Business) & Member of Board - L&T said, “Our association with BrahMos and DRDO is part of our strong commitment to Nation Building and our time-tested relationship to indigenously develop and build self-reliance in weapon systems. We are proud of our contribution to this Global best weapon system and meeting the exacting requirements of such Defence systems. We have been and continue to be a longstanding proponent of ‘Make in India’ to develop defence manufacturing ecosystem in India. Having crossed this milestone delivery of 100th TLC, L&T has accomplished the development to serial production journey and committed to continue
contributing to the further development of BRAHMOS Missile Systems.”

L&T opened its add-on production line for BRAHMOS TLC at Ranoli, Vadodara in July 2018 to cater to the serial production requirements of BRAHMOS Weapon System.


So 100 Launch cannisters with about 33 Launch Vehicles since July 2018, seems Brahmos production is going full steam ahead, inventory must be pretty significant now.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 20 Mar 2019 16:38

Still no news about missile test ? NOTAM ends today.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Mar 2019 22:35

regarding ASAT weapons, was wondering now that we have building blocks in in the form of heavy fighters or fighters that can climb very high and air launched missiles and sattelite tracking can we work out something https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-135_ASAT
or is it already there. We dont need an explosive in this case. Just an impact will enough. Obviously we being the real peacefuls will do it in retaliation


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Mar 2019 17:21



Any idea why a passive seeker, will it lock on to the source of radiation without emitting any radar waves?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Zynda » 21 Mar 2019 17:31

Aditya_V saar, I am sure you are aware that ARMs home on to source of radio radiation (radar station) & in the process do not emit anything which can be detected & hence the usage of word passive. Similar to how IR/IIR missile is termed as passive guidance.

The last stage mmW seeker in the NGARM missile, takes over if the radar station is switched off. Then the mmW seeker goes live, guiding the missile to its target. I believe, this now is the current trend of ARMs and nice to see that DRDO/IAF has already baked in this feature on the upcoming NGARM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby parshuram » 21 Mar 2019 19:05

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... -drdo.html

Says have been tested already earlier this year . Mid course guidance is through Active Seeker

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 21 Mar 2019 22:17

parshuram wrote:https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/03/21/India-next-gen-desi-anti-radiation-missile-trials-ngarm-drdo.html

Says have been tested already earlier this year . Mid course guidance is through Active Seeker


You have it mixed up. MCG i.e. bearing is via passive seeker + onboard INS/Glonass/GPS. Active seeker is for terminal guidance.
For more on a similar scheme, look up the AGM-88E HARM:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Zynda » 21 Mar 2019 22:25

Karan, how is it going wrt IRNSS integration with our munitions? GPS/GLONASS integration is fine (& probably should serve as back up or primary mode when used in locations where IRNSS coverage is weak or nil), but in IOR/South-Asia region, shouldn't IRNSS be our preferred mode for Satellite guidance?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 21 Mar 2019 23:32

Zynda we have solutions already.
http://accord-soft.com/pdfs/IRNSS_GPS_G ... ceiver.pdf
I'll bet that we rely on this & other, similar RCI stuff wherever possible.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2019 00:07

KaranM, I think IAF has to have a fast track project to develop a WVR missile to be produced in India.
The reason is WVR seekers have a limited airborne cycles for the cooler, structure and rocket fuel and turn to sawdust after so many exposures.
Can't import suddenly as all these have long lead times to build out.
I think just as Guided Pinaka was put on fast track and developed in 18 months something similar is needed.
A Tech demonstrator with the Nag IIR seeker chip with a shortened Astra motor as phase I while a higher fidelity IIR chip with a cooler (Phase II) is developed is a immediate step.
Heck I would use the current Astra body as long range IIR for the technology development phase.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Mar 2019 00:10

^^why cant a bvr serve as WVR?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2019 00:23

Energy

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 22 Mar 2019 00:32

Aditya_V wrote:


Any idea why a passive seeker, will it lock on to the source of radiation without emitting any radar waves?


Passive seeker to find the direction of the source. Once it is closer, the source will generally switch off to escape the ARM. This is where the active seeker will then find the target.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 22 Mar 2019 04:04

nam wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Any idea why a passive seeker, will it lock on to the source of radiation without emitting any radar waves?


Passive seeker to find the direction of the source. Once it is closer, the source will generally switch off to escape the ARM. This is where the active seeker will then find the target.


No you don't necessarily switch. You still need a combined Seeker+ARH functionality to discriminate between a radar and a decoy that looks like a radar. Also, emitting decoys are the counter to counter shutdown capabilities (when ARH forces a radar to stop transmitting) of modern ARMs in the constant battle of Air Defenses with SEAD and AEA. Compartmentalizing by relying solely on the MMW seeker for terminal work and ARH for guidance to target is not a good idea. On the AARGM mentioned above, the missile sends an impact assessment via satellite (during the last few seconds before impact) that consists of an RF signature profile (obtained via ARH) along with the seeker input so that the data can be processed and the threat correctly characterized. In effect it does its own BDA and doesn't need the DEAD aircraft to be around in order to send transmission. An ideal ARM should have a tri-mode terminal attack capability with IIR to expand the target set but no one is there yet. That and missile-teaming are going to be the next response from the DEAD side of the balance to counter future systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prasad » 22 Mar 2019 14:45

Tri-mode & swarming? That'll be a quick cheap and program. We're still building & testing the mmw seeker on this (even if it is common with other missile programs).

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 22 Mar 2019 15:15

the last gasp satellite update of enemy rf and optical signature captured is a nice idea. enables building up and adapting EW threat libraries daily by sending in missiles to probe...even if they get downed or miss they achieve the objective of e-orbat gathering.
I wonder if our harop drones have such snooping abilities. knowing the israeli traditions they probably do.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 22 Mar 2019 23:20

ArjunPandit wrote:^^why cant a bvr serve as WVR?


Design optimization. See the R73, Python etc.. see the fins on the nose (python, R73), the thrust vector (R73).. they are designed to immediately turn after being fired, even as much as 90 degrees off the boresight. A BVR is optimized for longer range. I bet the large fins at the nose play havoc with drag.. BVR needs to reach out to a looong range silently, only turn on the seeker just a few seconds before impact. It can be used as WVR, but you will need some specific 'geometries' of engagement.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 23:33

ramana wrote:KaranM, I think IAF has to have a fast track project to develop a WVR missile to be produced in India.
The reason is WVR seekers have a limited airborne cycles for the cooler, structure and rocket fuel and turn to sawdust after so many exposures.
Can't import suddenly as all these have long lead times to build out.
I think just as Guided Pinaka was put on fast track and developed in 18 months something similar is needed.
A Tech demonstrator with the Nag IIR seeker chip with a shortened Astra motor as phase I while a higher fidelity IIR chip with a cooler (Phase II) is developed is a immediate step.
Heck I would use the current Astra body as long range IIR for the technology development phase.


I think DRDO needs to get into the habit of fast track projects. Their cycle time of test, off for a year, test, come back after a year..is simply too slow for our dynamic threat involvement. Whatever it takes, they have to reduce cycle time by a huge amount to achieve what you say in a proper timeframe.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 22 Mar 2019 23:36

ArjunPandit wrote:^^why cant a bvr serve as WVR?


Missile convergence is is a design goal most missile designers are currently pursuing for future products. Significantly better HOBS performance was a requirement for the AIM-120D relative to the C for example but future missiles are probably going to need significantly higher agility (see how the PAC-3 does its fly out out of plane maneuver using the ACMs) and better short range and HOBS is probably why the USAF has been rejecting VFDR propulsion insertion into AMRAAM after pioneering the tech in the 90s.

As of now CCMs offer much higher levels of off the rail agility for those kind of shots.
Last edited by brar_w on 23 Mar 2019 01:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 23 Mar 2019 01:12

ramana wrote:KaranM, I think IAF has to have a fast track project to develop a WVR missile to be produced in India.
The reason is WVR seekers have a limited airborne cycles for the cooler, structure and rocket fuel and turn to sawdust after so many exposures.
Can't import suddenly as all these have long lead times to build out.
I think just as Guided Pinaka was put on fast track and developed in 18 months something similar is needed.
A Tech demonstrator with the Nag IIR seeker chip with a shortened Astra motor as phase I while a higher fidelity IIR chip with a cooler (Phase II) is developed is a immediate step.
Heck I would use the current Astra body as long range IIR for the technology development phase.



The PDV also uses IIR seeker, no ? Is that a different beast than air-to-air missile seeker ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 23 Mar 2019 01:18



Why are there nay-sayers on every project ? Some IAF source is being quoted as DRDO hasn't mastered the sensors but also it takes too much time between tests. I don't understand - what's the point in testing frequently if they haven't mastered it. And also says that the first trial was a failure. If everything has to be a success, what's the point of trial at all ?

I don't like DRDO slipping on committed deadlines, but I don't know how anyone can estimate time for ab initio research projects.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Zynda » 23 Mar 2019 02:34

Not all test objectives are the same. Usually, prelim tests may involve validating aerodynamics of the missile, validation of stores separation, validating propulsion systems or just to test structural integrity along with all the above. Achieving the defined parameters is usually declared as successful. Does not mean that the entire product is ready for induction at that moment.

The test matrix will be continuously expanded to include increasingly complex cases. In many of these programs, tech has to be developed from scratch & thus probably long gestation times. Of course, for improvements on the same product, the time lines are much shorter...Pinaka is a good example.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 23 Mar 2019 10:37

I am just asking for them to budget more resources and do things in parallel. If the work gets redone so be it. Fast inductions should be the norm. IMO, DRDO has got too used to working on pennies in a resource starved environment and hence shudder at the thought of audit saying they "wasted money". High time CAG was told to butt out of fast track programs & let these guys do their thing. A few million wasted in excess tests, re-engineering, test item procurement, etc will easily be compensated for by avoiding imports which are 5x-10x more expensive in many cases.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 23 Mar 2019 14:56

Karan M, excess testing would mean more failures. In Indian context you'll see hysterical reporting of these failures funded by import lobby. Better to be safe than sorry. Nirbhay and Trishul are perhaps good examples. After the last Nirbhay test, several in the media, SM and BRF wanted the project shelved. Failures not only encourage imports but also can permanently damage domestic development.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prasad » 23 Mar 2019 15:11

Eh. Just call it a prithvi test and don't release details until you've done detailed analysis afterwards.


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